Vermithrax
02-11-2010, 01:52 PM
My purpose in posting this is to show some of the thought processes I'm using to build out a new MK2 Denny list. This post is long and comes with a bit of a battle report and list analysis. Feel free to post suggestions, observations, share similar experiences or just read it or not read it.
I was working on an alternate Denny list and played the following engagement twice with a friend of mine. He wanted to see what all the tiered list fuss was about so he brought a Tier 3 Kara Sloan list. I wanted to get reacquainted with MK2 Denny.
Sloan
2x Defender
6 Longgunners
6 Longgunners
6 Gun Mages
6 Rangers
I was toying with
Denny
Defiler
Nightwretch
Nightwretch
Reaper
Withershadow Combine
Warwitch Siren
Warwitch Siren
Necrotech
10 McThralls
1 Brute
1 Necrosurgeon
1 Bloat Thrall
My initial goal with the list was to free Denny up for lots of spellcasting. Sirens were added to help allocate focus and Withershadow to keep up with the Upkeeps.
We played a couple games while I tried to make my list work against a hail of bullets. We had plenty of terrain for me to slink around behind but it didn't seem to matter much. Someone had a thread titled "gunmachine" several weeks back and I can't agree more. Gunlines just keep showing up. This was also the first time I dealt with Cygnaran Rangers and they have a very annoying Mark Target ability.
Observations:
The Kara Sloan list had solid synergy whereas mine had none.
One unit of McThralls supported by one Necrosurgeon still won't get across the table if a gunline chooses to not let them. To be fair my McThrall unit was my only mass of bodies so it was fairly easy for my opponent to focus on them.
The rest of my list was easy to pick off as well. Looking at it now I can see that my threat saturation was actually fairly low. By the time I got close enough for a decent assassination run, the teeth in my list had been blunted. I made a typical Scourge run by moving a defiler up and using its spray to clear a line to Sloan. Then Denny arced scourge through the defiler to knock Sloan down (I got her on deviation). Unfortunately my only follow up was a lone Nightwretch which wasn't enough.
One of my favorite Skarre lists comes at the opponent with 10 Satyxis and 16 McThralls backed by 2 Brutes and Necrosurgeon. That list handles Gunlines decently as Satyxis + UA have amazing DEF against ranged, move fast, and can lock down a significant amount of models while the rest of your army drives downfield. In contrast this Denny list just didn't have that kind of capacity.
So what to do about the McThrall "problem"? Add another Necrosurgeon? I say nay. The Sloan list and cygnar in general have the capability of removing 10 McThralls pretty easily with ranged fire. Spending 4 points in hopes to regenerate them faster is only playing into the opponent's hands. In that case eliminating 10 McThralls nullifies the benefits of 4 points of Necrosurgeons. The Necrosurgeon can't respawn a unit from scratch.
I like the new Warwitch. During play I felt that two were too much in a 35 point list. They spent a lot of time doing what they were designed to do - that is giving a Defiler and Nightwretch a focus. I was putting 4 points on the table to support 9 additional points. So 13 points of my list (~34%) was tied up in making sure two arc nodes could run for free or perhaps boost a hit roll. Tactically this means I was expecting those 13 points to make back their cost on the table. In hindsight this is not likely. The nightwretch can pop one target, the defiler can get 2-3. A round of arced venoms can likely get 4-5 targets; (assume you can fire two venoms off). So you get 7-9 troopers; roughly 8 points for 13. Hmmm.
Bloat Thrall did as well as you would expect against Gun Mages and Defenders. Got blasted off the table each game and felt more like a hindrance due to his speed and the limitations Death Blast puts on where I can move him. IMO 35 points (or perhaps just this list) does not offer enough threat saturation to keep the Bloat Thrall from becoming an easy target.
As for Denny playing a spellcaster role. She doesn't clear masses of infantry with spells which is what I thought I could get her to do. Venoms are tricky to line up and the way formation rules work you are likely to only get two or sometimes three models. These games reaffirm my belief that she's a strong support caster. A bit of advice I got on the boards which I repeat to myself every time I flub a Denny game is this "every turn Denny should try to do something for herself and do something to help someone".
For me its back to the drawing board and more testing with Mk2 Denny. I did really well with her in MK1 but those were the days of cheap bile thralls, cheap McThralls, and cheap nodes (comparatively). Essentially in MK1 threat saturation was easier. In MK2 she pays the arc node tax and I may need to playtest her with 2 nodes in order to free up points for additional threat saturation.
Conclusions:
Warwitch Siren - like her but only bring one at 35 points; keep in mind she might not be needed at that point level. More playtime required with that one.
McThralls & Necrosurgeon. Work well but for this list I needed another significant threat to draw some of the pressure off.
Pistol Wraiths. I want them back in a Denny list.
Next round of lists:
So here are my thoughts on my next configurations with Denny at 35 points. From a design perspective it *feels* like I need to go with one or two configurations. Either two full units of infantry or a significant heavy jack like Nightmare or Deathjack. Here's the base I want to use:
Denny
Nightwretch
Nightwretch
Defiler
Mechanithralls (10)
Pistol Wraith
Pistol Wraith
Gorman Di Wulfe
To this base I've concocted a few options to spend the remaining 14 points.
Option #1 - Nightmare:
Nightmare
Brute Thrall
Brute Thrall
Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls
I've played this version in the past and I find it works fairly well. Although he requires focus, Nightmare is good with Deneghra. Stealth, Reach and the bonuses Prey offers makes Nightmare great for assassinations or destroying opposing heavy jacks. Of all his abilities, Nightmare's Reach is the ability that makes him a winner for me. Reach means he can get to a target. Reach also allows him to tie up and destroy infantry. Did i mention he can also get ghostly for a mere focus?
Option #2 - Bane Thralls:
Bane Thralls
Bane Lord Tartarus
Downgrade Defiler to Nightwretch
Brute Thrall
Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls
The stealth option with Deneghra. Bane Thralls can take on infantry and crack heavy targets. Denny helps them get through terrain (Ghost Walk). Tartarus is a good infantry clearer with Thresher. Now my list has two strong threats. Do you focus on the McThralls so the Necrosurgeon can't bring them back or do you try to get rid of Tartarus and his buddies?
Option #3 - Scooby Doo Option
Blackbane's Ghost Raiders
Brute Thrall
Brute Thrall
Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls
Upgrade Defiler to Slayer
I'm going to play this one next. I like the idea of Blackbane's Raiders with this list. Incorporeal improves their survivability and Denny can help their MAT. I like the added bonus Continuous Fire will get on Denny's Feat turn. The slayer is my bargain bin option for dealing with other Heavy threats. With this list if I was to repeat my game against Sloan then I would sacrifice an arc node to Venom the Gun Mages off the table.
I was working on an alternate Denny list and played the following engagement twice with a friend of mine. He wanted to see what all the tiered list fuss was about so he brought a Tier 3 Kara Sloan list. I wanted to get reacquainted with MK2 Denny.
Sloan
2x Defender
6 Longgunners
6 Longgunners
6 Gun Mages
6 Rangers
I was toying with
Denny
Defiler
Nightwretch
Nightwretch
Reaper
Withershadow Combine
Warwitch Siren
Warwitch Siren
Necrotech
10 McThralls
1 Brute
1 Necrosurgeon
1 Bloat Thrall
My initial goal with the list was to free Denny up for lots of spellcasting. Sirens were added to help allocate focus and Withershadow to keep up with the Upkeeps.
We played a couple games while I tried to make my list work against a hail of bullets. We had plenty of terrain for me to slink around behind but it didn't seem to matter much. Someone had a thread titled "gunmachine" several weeks back and I can't agree more. Gunlines just keep showing up. This was also the first time I dealt with Cygnaran Rangers and they have a very annoying Mark Target ability.
Observations:
The Kara Sloan list had solid synergy whereas mine had none.
One unit of McThralls supported by one Necrosurgeon still won't get across the table if a gunline chooses to not let them. To be fair my McThrall unit was my only mass of bodies so it was fairly easy for my opponent to focus on them.
The rest of my list was easy to pick off as well. Looking at it now I can see that my threat saturation was actually fairly low. By the time I got close enough for a decent assassination run, the teeth in my list had been blunted. I made a typical Scourge run by moving a defiler up and using its spray to clear a line to Sloan. Then Denny arced scourge through the defiler to knock Sloan down (I got her on deviation). Unfortunately my only follow up was a lone Nightwretch which wasn't enough.
One of my favorite Skarre lists comes at the opponent with 10 Satyxis and 16 McThralls backed by 2 Brutes and Necrosurgeon. That list handles Gunlines decently as Satyxis + UA have amazing DEF against ranged, move fast, and can lock down a significant amount of models while the rest of your army drives downfield. In contrast this Denny list just didn't have that kind of capacity.
So what to do about the McThrall "problem"? Add another Necrosurgeon? I say nay. The Sloan list and cygnar in general have the capability of removing 10 McThralls pretty easily with ranged fire. Spending 4 points in hopes to regenerate them faster is only playing into the opponent's hands. In that case eliminating 10 McThralls nullifies the benefits of 4 points of Necrosurgeons. The Necrosurgeon can't respawn a unit from scratch.
I like the new Warwitch. During play I felt that two were too much in a 35 point list. They spent a lot of time doing what they were designed to do - that is giving a Defiler and Nightwretch a focus. I was putting 4 points on the table to support 9 additional points. So 13 points of my list (~34%) was tied up in making sure two arc nodes could run for free or perhaps boost a hit roll. Tactically this means I was expecting those 13 points to make back their cost on the table. In hindsight this is not likely. The nightwretch can pop one target, the defiler can get 2-3. A round of arced venoms can likely get 4-5 targets; (assume you can fire two venoms off). So you get 7-9 troopers; roughly 8 points for 13. Hmmm.
Bloat Thrall did as well as you would expect against Gun Mages and Defenders. Got blasted off the table each game and felt more like a hindrance due to his speed and the limitations Death Blast puts on where I can move him. IMO 35 points (or perhaps just this list) does not offer enough threat saturation to keep the Bloat Thrall from becoming an easy target.
As for Denny playing a spellcaster role. She doesn't clear masses of infantry with spells which is what I thought I could get her to do. Venoms are tricky to line up and the way formation rules work you are likely to only get two or sometimes three models. These games reaffirm my belief that she's a strong support caster. A bit of advice I got on the boards which I repeat to myself every time I flub a Denny game is this "every turn Denny should try to do something for herself and do something to help someone".
For me its back to the drawing board and more testing with Mk2 Denny. I did really well with her in MK1 but those were the days of cheap bile thralls, cheap McThralls, and cheap nodes (comparatively). Essentially in MK1 threat saturation was easier. In MK2 she pays the arc node tax and I may need to playtest her with 2 nodes in order to free up points for additional threat saturation.
Conclusions:
Warwitch Siren - like her but only bring one at 35 points; keep in mind she might not be needed at that point level. More playtime required with that one.
McThralls & Necrosurgeon. Work well but for this list I needed another significant threat to draw some of the pressure off.
Pistol Wraiths. I want them back in a Denny list.
Next round of lists:
So here are my thoughts on my next configurations with Denny at 35 points. From a design perspective it *feels* like I need to go with one or two configurations. Either two full units of infantry or a significant heavy jack like Nightmare or Deathjack. Here's the base I want to use:
Denny
Nightwretch
Nightwretch
Defiler
Mechanithralls (10)
Pistol Wraith
Pistol Wraith
Gorman Di Wulfe
To this base I've concocted a few options to spend the remaining 14 points.
Option #1 - Nightmare:
Nightmare
Brute Thrall
Brute Thrall
Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls
I've played this version in the past and I find it works fairly well. Although he requires focus, Nightmare is good with Deneghra. Stealth, Reach and the bonuses Prey offers makes Nightmare great for assassinations or destroying opposing heavy jacks. Of all his abilities, Nightmare's Reach is the ability that makes him a winner for me. Reach means he can get to a target. Reach also allows him to tie up and destroy infantry. Did i mention he can also get ghostly for a mere focus?
Option #2 - Bane Thralls:
Bane Thralls
Bane Lord Tartarus
Downgrade Defiler to Nightwretch
Brute Thrall
Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls
The stealth option with Deneghra. Bane Thralls can take on infantry and crack heavy targets. Denny helps them get through terrain (Ghost Walk). Tartarus is a good infantry clearer with Thresher. Now my list has two strong threats. Do you focus on the McThralls so the Necrosurgeon can't bring them back or do you try to get rid of Tartarus and his buddies?
Option #3 - Scooby Doo Option
Blackbane's Ghost Raiders
Brute Thrall
Brute Thrall
Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls
Upgrade Defiler to Slayer
I'm going to play this one next. I like the idea of Blackbane's Raiders with this list. Incorporeal improves their survivability and Denny can help their MAT. I like the added bonus Continuous Fire will get on Denny's Feat turn. The slayer is my bargain bin option for dealing with other Heavy threats. With this list if I was to repeat my game against Sloan then I would sacrifice an arc node to Venom the Gun Mages off the table.