This just in

[x3tsniper]

More anti infantry brought to you by BoLS.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/05/colossals-teaser-general-nemo.html

Artificer General Nemo - Cygnar Epic Warcaster

Lightning Strike [1x] (None) RNG: Ctrl ROF: 1 AOE: - POW: 10
Damage Type: Electricity
Lightning Generator - When a model is hit with this weapon, lightning arcs from that model to d3 consecutive additional models.
The lightning arcs to the nearest model it has not already arced to within 4˝ of the last model it arced to, ignoring this model.
Each model the lightning arcs to suffers a POW 10 electrical damage roll.

I just hope he doesn't have a way to ignore LoS, since we already know he can reinholdt for 2 of these.

[tonyzahn]

Rng: Ctrl? So it's a chain lightning storm call?

Irusk's Airburst is going to go cry in a corner somewhere now...

[quindraco]

Rng: Ctrl? So it's a chain lightning storm call?

Irusk's Airburst is going to go cry in a corner somewhere now...

It probably needs to hit like a normal ranged weapon, which means you can shut it down by blocking LOS, bringing stealth to the party, etc.

[Col_Festus]

My guess is it will probably ignore LOS since the range is CNTL, unless he has some mechanic that lets him boost his CNTL range.

Not going to lie... I really hope they give us something if they continue on their plan to eradicate infantry...

[x3tsniper]

I am hoping it needs LoS and doesn't ignore stealth. The issue with blocking LoS is what are you going to block LoS to our infantry that he can't just shoot and arc into our infantry? Clearly the solution is that the AK UA grants them immunity to electricity. lol

There is very little in the game that I hate more than chain lightning that can be boosted... At least ashes to ashes has the chance to only hit 2 models, which it does for me with eHexeris plenty.

EDIT: Don't forget he can target his own models in the back that are immune to arc it onto 4 of our guys.

[Kurb]

And the hits keep on coming

[drachenfels]

EDIT: Don't forget he can target his own models in the back that are immune to arc it onto 4 of our guys.

may wana read closer...

d3 additional models
meaning it has a chance (equal amount) of only hitting a single additional model. and if they shoot their own stormsmith in the back (likeliest target) that means they are only frying a single model of yours.

[OMM_Lukav]

Other than the range of this thing, i don't see the worry. Our multi wound infantry will be annoyed and it is still d3 with a ROF 1. You might lose 2 troops a turn if it hits and if it get past the ARM. I guarantee Cygnar is already throwing the hate about how weak this is.

[Col_Festus]

Khador's competitive edge comes from masses of high def infantry that have very low arm. That's what it's such a big deal to a lot of the competitive Khador players around here. In the past 2 books Cygnar alone has gotten multiple things that just murder the faces off of our high def infantry. Off the top of my head..

Storm Strider
Minute Man
and now this thing...

Like I said unless they plan on giving us some decent high arm infantry, or some SERIOUS jack support.. things are going to start getting very annoying very fast.

[OMM_Lukav]

Well maybe everyone will start getting more use out of their Man o Wars. :)

[sleet01]

You forgot the Storm Tower, Firefly, and Avenger. But strangely enough, the first two are generally poorly regarded and the Storm Strider is only just starting to become popular. And I can personally attest to the general inadvisability of turning to lightning as the solution to WGI. It turns out that all the lightning in the world doesn't make a difference versus WGI when they just tough it out.

[Col_Festus]

Unless they are buffed, or receive a UA that actually makes them worth while sp4, def 11 will always be epic fail.

[dbsmash]

Like I said unless they plan on giving us some decent high arm infantry

Have you met Khador?

[OMM_Lukav]

Have you met Khador?

Agreed - on average, they are doing 1 point of damage to a 8 hit box model. I fail to see how that is fail.

[dbsmash]

Agreed - on average, they are doing 1 point of damage to a 8 hit box model. I fail to see how that is fail.

An 8 hit box model that can now be healed, as well.

[Col_Festus]

The argument is not that this is good against MOW, it's not. It's the fact that forcing us to use high arm units that pales in comparison to the effectiveness (and cornerstone) of high def infantry.

[DemonCalibre]

An 8 hit box model that can now be healed, as well.

Then you remember that in SR2012, you actually have to get to zones and our multiwound models can barely arrive without your opponent making it harder through some feat/spell/etc.

The problem with our mutliwound guys is that they are too slow, pretty much not anything else.

[x3tsniper]

Okay so d3, isn't as terrible as I was reading it, but combined with all the other AoE/Chain coming out it is pretty awful. These kind of things when coming from a caster aren't to terribly far off from killing IFP, and do it relatively easily if they are boosting.

My issue with MoW, is what happens when it bounces of the MoW you just repaired, and into the mechanics behind them? Now you have issues. He can do this long before the MoW have a chance to engage. I honestly think this push to jacks will see some MoW on the board purely because we can't support the jacks, and I hope they give us a solo/UA to support this move, but the way they are now, I feel like I am going to be playing two or three casters period in khador.

[Ganso]

First I gotta see what they give other factions and what they give us in Colossals before making a final judgement, but I am seeing a move towards massive infantry removal in my meta, which is why I hope we get the support our multi wound infantry needs

[OMM_Lukav]

All i will say is if you think Man o Wars are just too slow to be competitive, ask PG Clutch at this years WMW to play a game with is pButcher Demo Corp list. It will make you a believer.

[ChainGun]

Well maybe everyone will start getting more use out of their Man o Wars. :)

Denying us the one thing our faction excels at isn't going to make the MoW suck less (trust me, I have 26 of them fully painted).

[Kuarnix]

I'm not very concerned. They have lots of ways to do this kind of thing already. I'm also not expecting Nemo's defensive stats to get much of a bump, either. If he wants to get close and spend focus, I don't mind....

(I know it'll likely be a 16" range with the squire, but that's still close for an old man)


Actually, on second thought, this makes Doom Reavers sad.

[OMM_Lukav]

I get what you all are saying, but I think that is the way the game is evolving and Khador has the means to stay caught up. If you are playing against a stealth heavy list, you don't bring your shootiest list. In the same vein, if you are playing a anti-light infantry list...you don't bring the means to feed that kind of list. Especially in the case of Cygnar, the tools that blow our light infantry apart are not going to hurt our high ARM as well.

[x3tsniper]

The big issue here is that anti-infantry is becoming so prevalent that it is in almost all lists now or seems like it will be soon. I honestly could care less about this specific caster, but when we start reaching the point where any faction can bring 2 separate casters that rape infantry, along with a colossal or battle engine that will rape infantry it becomes a problem in my mind, at least until we have a little more support for our other options. Which, I don't think is unreasonable, since it will make expensive units and models more expensive.

[sleet01]

(I know it'll likely be a 16" range with the squire, but that's still close for an old man)

Actually, on second thought, this makes Doom Reavers sad.

Your Doom Reavers can take some small comfort in the fact that Nemo3 can't use the Squire (as I was recently reminded) because Finch is already attached to him.

[Kuarnix]

The big issue here is that anti-infantry is becoming so prevalent that it is in almost all lists now or seems like it will be soon. I honestly could care less about this specific caster, but when we start reaching the point where any faction can bring 2 separate casters that rape infantry, along with a colossal or battle engine that will rape infantry it becomes a problem in my mind, at least until we have a little more support for our other options. Which, I don't think is unreasonable, since it will make expensive units and models more expensive.

So this was an issue in one of the metas that I played in back in MKI. Lots of accurate pow 10's (especially shooting), and not much in the way of warjacks at all, maybe a few high-powered hitters per army but not much. So, I trolled the meta with a 500 point list that wasn't particularly good - just Karchev (who couldn't camp focus), Juggernauts (3!), and Uhlans. It wasn't amazing (though it was fun) but it rendered a lot of my opponent's models useless, which was a large advantage.

EDIT - sleet01 - oh shnap! That's excellent news. That's far too close for an old man to get to a Khador army :p

[LunarSol]

Most of my hopes for Khador are in Conquest. This is probably a terrible plan, but I'm hopeful none the less.

Also, Finch doesn't HAVE to be an attachment. She could just be a companion.

[x3tsniper]

The issue is that it's not a lot of accurate pow 10s. It is single models that can drop swathes of infantry at a time being put in most lists. Their colossal can do the same thing at shorter range, and it probably won't be a slouch in melee. Makes me glad that our own colossal cannot be disrupted.

I honestly hope I am just doom and gloom here for no reason, and that we get some nice MoW support or jack support.


Most of my hopes for Khador are in Conquest. This is probably a terrible plan, but I'm hopeful none the less.

Also, Finch doesn't HAVE to be an attachment. She could just be a companion.
This

[correlation2]

This is why I've been telling you guys not to rely solely on Iron Flesh.


Our Shield Wall units should handle this fairly easily.

[x3tsniper]

This is why I've been telling you guys not to rely solely on Iron Flesh.


Our Shield Wall units should handle this fairly easily.

The correct term is MoW survive this easily. What you said I disagree with. Boostable pow 10s knock shield walls out relatively easily, and from such long range, I just don't have a lot of faith in IFP surviving that either.

[Jake the Dog]

Well you guys have infaction Heavy/Multi-Wound Foot Infantry. If you don't use it, that's a choice. I wish Cygnar had a choice ... (and no, Mercs with Murdoch don't count, you can do the same with your Officer).

[correlation2]

Well I assume since it's uniquely a rng cntrl gun he's just going to be tossing shots out to troll for kills. Probably going to be using the rest of his focus on the usual hefty spell list and jack movement shenanigans. Sure he could use the focus to boost damage rolls if he felt he had to, but I just don't see it being a worthy investment -most- of the time.


Btw I think the electric immune AKs idea is... hilarious.

"Sir! We've just discovered -and of course insulated ourselves against- a new element!"
"By the Empress' knickers!"
"Yes sir! I call it, 'cracklystuff'"
"Genius!"

[sleet01]

I think Storm Lances are it for us, compadre.

[Col_Festus]

The problem we have is two fold. Some of our infantry is simply amazing, so they won't buff MOW until other armies reliably can deal with the high def stuff. The same goes for our jacks, we have some amazing character jacks, but the rest of our jacks are pretty sub par, so they can't really give us more jack support until they do something about our amazing jacks.

around and around we go!

Since we are on the topic, who does play the best high arm/tough as nails armies? Im thinking probably trolls or Skorne?

[x3tsniper]

Well you guys have infaction Heavy/Multi-Wound Foot Infantry. If you don't use it, that's a choice. I wish Cygnar had a choice ... (and no, Mercs with Murdoch don't count, you can do the same with your Officer).

I you are trying to make me feel bad about an 11 man unit that can permanently have armor 19, spd 6 and def 12 with super tough, you won't find tears here. Including jr. this costs 1 point more than a full unit of ST. If I had arcane shield to throw on them, you might see them tar pitting for me on occasion. I will grant you they aren't all 8 wound models, but they are also not speed 4.



Since we are on the topic, who does play the best high arm/tough as nails armies? Im thinking probably trolls or Skorne?

Depends on offense or defense. I think the Skorne take it defensively when you stack defenders ward on, but trolls have it offensively. It really depends on what buffs you have available.

[Jake the Dog]

I think Storm Lances are it for us, compadre.

That's Cavalry, I said Heavy Foot Infantry. It sucks that out Cavalry has 5 Boxes unlike most to boot.

[Kuarnix]

The issue is that it's not a lot of accurate pow 10s. It is single models that can drop swathes of infantry at a time being put in most lists. Their colossal can do the same thing at shorter range, and it probably won't be a slouch in melee. Makes me glad that our own colossal cannot be disrupted.


Eh, there's lots of things that can do it already. Cygnar has had Sentinels for a long time, and I think....two (?) of their casters from Prime have deadeye. Menoth has ashes to ashes and Feora, and so on. In terms of the colossals and battle engines, they're pretty expensive models so it's not trivial to include in a smaller game where that's going to make an impact.

The good news is that you can't boost the damage on electro-leap, which means the shield wall units should take it pretty well (at 9's to kill I never bother aiming Chain Lightning at ARM 18 units, it's just too focus/fury intensive to boost the damage rolls, and really don't like casting it at units over ARM 15).

[Jake the Dog]

I you are trying to make me feel bad about an 11 man unit that can permanently have armor 19, spd 6 and def 12 with super tough, you won't find tears here. Including jr. this costs 1 point more than a full unit of ST. If I had arcane shield to throw on them, you might see them tar pitting for me on occasion.
That wasn't my point, friend.
While Khador has high def infantry, it also has a high Armor infantry unit that is in-faction and can be healed. That takes care of Pow 10 spam. Cygnar has no In-Faction Heavy Foot Infantry (without Murdoch, but you can do the same). Our only in-faction tool against Pow 10 spam is AS from the JMW, and that just works ok on most stuff (most of our infantry has just average stats in most stats). To use your own words, you won't find any tears here when you have tools to fight what worries you.

[Digilante]

The good news is that you can't boost the damage on electro-leap
This may have been true in the past, but the leaked info doesn't say that the leaps are unboostable. It's just a rumor though so who knows.

Even if it is boostable I don't think this guy (who is presumably going to be a jack caster like his previous incarnation) will want to be saving 1-3 focus to boost some random POW 10s. The way I see this being used is that he drops it on one of our jacks each turn to take out D3 of the surrounding winterguard/kayazy. Even without this though Cygnar has never had trouble dealing with our high DEF infantry through Deadeye, thunderhead, minutemen, electroleap, chain lightning, etc. I don't think this changes much, it is just a neat ability.

[x3tsniper]

Pow 10s will kill of what heals the MoW so very easily.. This is a b2b repair we are talking about. Also just to note, I am not directing this at cygnar as a faction but the game as a whole. Point me to a faction that didn't get AoE spam or chain effects in their last release. I am aware perfectly that we have heavy infantry with multiwounds. I am also aware they are speed 4. The STs may be more survivable than most factions medium base infantry, but they can still be taken apart moving at spd 4 across the board.

So yes they will survive pow 10s, and then do a lot of nothing for the rest of the game.

[Kuarnix]

Yeah, after having models before a general release thanks to the magic of conventions and seeing how the spoilers end up written out up here, I don't place a lot of stock in spoilers either. I figure if the rule works one way, it's going to continue to work that way.... :p

[Draxos]

Lets just hope they never figure out to shoot a Storm Noun in the back with this one.

[x3tsniper]

Which is why I did this thread to point out, hey look more of our anti infantry stuff. This isn't a hey nerf cyngar thread, which is confusing me since we apparently have a couple cyngar players just hanging out in here.

Like I have stated a couple times in different places, it isn't about any one model. It is about successive releases of anti-infantry.

[Octavius_Maximus]

The argument is not that this is good against MOW, it's not. It's the fact that forcing us to use high arm units that pales in comparison to the effectiveness (and cornerstone) of high def infantry.

Doesnt it seem logical that if the High Def Infantry can get killed easier then they dont actually *have* that effectiveness?

I mean Kayazy and Winter Guard Death Star are meta bending units, these counters seem natural to me.

More people taking these things may just make man o wars and Jacks more effective. More points spent on Anti light Infantry is less points spent on anti Heavy Infantry/Jacks.

[sliganian]

Khador's competitive edge comes from masses of high def infantry that have very low arm. That's what it's such a big deal to a lot of the competitive Khador players around here. In the past 2 books Cygnar alone has gotten multiple things that just murder the faces off of our high def infantry. Off the top of my head..

Storm Strider
Minute Man
and now this thing...

Like I said unless they plan on giving us some decent high arm infantry, or some SERIOUS jack support.. things are going to start getting very annoying very fast.

Iron Fangs called to remind everyone that they still exist.

[Ganso]

More people taking these things may just make man o wars and Jacks more effective.

I don't think "more effective" is the correct term to use here.

There's a reason why Kayazy and WGI are at the top of the pyramid, high defense is one of them, insane damage output is the other, all combined in a low point cost package.

When the meta shifts to a Kayazzy/WGI unfriendly environment our Men o War may survive a few blast templates and POW 10s, but their damage output is still below our current standard and their point cost will still remain inflated.

[Kuarnix]

Iron Fangs called to remind everyone that they still exist.

I'm trying to figure out how to work this into a bendy pike joke, but nothing is coming to me. :p

[Octavius_Maximus]

I don't think "more effective" is the correct term to use here.

There's a reason why Kayazy and WGI are at the top of the pyramid, high defense is one of them, insane damage output is the other, all combined in a low point cost package.

When the meta shifts to a Kayazzy/WGI unfriendly environment our Men o War may survive a few blast templates and POW 10s, but their damage output is still below our current standard and their point cost will still remain inflated.

My Demo Corps have never not killed anything that was in their melee range before. But ive only just started using kayazy, and my first opponent used Gun mages against them...Not good.

[OldOneEye]

I'm trying to figure out how to work this into a bendy pike joke, but nothing is coming to me. :p
"Well, tell the Iron Fangs not to get bent out of shape!"

[Alex C]

I don't see what the "DOOOOOOM!" is all about personally.

Cygnar has plenty of ways to hit high DEF, and plenty of ways to electroleap. This gun is nothing new for the Faction. "But it can be boosted!" I hear you cry. Well, if Nemo is using his Focus to boost POW10s from his gun, I'd be rejoicing. That's less Focus on his 'jacks and less spells being cast.

If you're still worried about this weapon, for whatever reason, then perhaps take it as an oppertunity to get away from the WGI deathstar/Kayazy crutch you're apparently relying on so much.

[Kuarnix]

"Well, tell the Iron Fangs not to get bent out of shape!"


"I'm just afraid they'll snap...."

[Havock]

Our thing will be a warjack attachment for 1 pt:
Lightning rod: As long as the model is in base contact with the gaming table, all electricity based attacks targeted within 5" attacks or arced to a target within 5" are instead redirected to the warjack this upgrade is attached to.

*devastator with Lightning rods*
"Where's your swan now!?"

[x3tsniper]

I don't see what the "DOOOOOOM!" is all about personally.

Cygnar has plenty of ways to hit high DEF, and plenty of ways to electroleap. This gun is nothing new for the Faction. "But it can be boosted!" I hear you cry. Well, if Nemo is using his Focus to boost POW10s from his gun, I'd be rejoicing. That's less Focus on his 'jacks and less spells being cast.

If you're still worried about this weapon, for whatever reason, then perhaps take it as an oppertunity to get away from the WGI deathstar/Kayazy crutch you're apparently relying on so much.


Once again not just about cygnar. Have you looked at trolls releases lately? Even they have massive AoEs, and ways of auto hitting with chain lightning or magic bullet. It is literally everywhere now.

[Caecus Scius]

Hmm, people may have to learn how to play with more jacks, its a crazy idea I know. Except I know a lot of good Khador players doing it.

The meta was 1 jack, tons of high def infantry... it might need to switch around, to become more balanced versus this.

[QTN]

Stop relying on WGDS and Kayazy as a crutch? Sadly, even though Khador is the infantry not warjack faction? Here's hoping a UA for MOWs...

[x3tsniper]

My recent lists with Zerkova at 50 points has neither Winterguard nor Kayazy, but I still will not bring more than 2 jacks(being two destroyers). I have already started to shift, but it means that one of my favorite casters pIrusk is losing his power. If MoW get brought back to the table maybe he will come back. I can only hope.

[QTN]

@XSniper... all in all, the Motherland has hearty people... we will find a way to beat down the Swans :-)

I am hopeful that it will encourage different lists... I just painted my pIrusk. Maybe eIrusk will be better?

[x3tsniper]

My issue with eIrusk has always been that he is halfway between a jack caster and an infantry caster, which means he doesn't do either very well. Energizer is a great spell, but he doesn't have anything else to round that off besides having 7 focus. He has Battle Lust for infantry, and everything else besides Airburst(great spell) can go either way. But once you start energizing and upkeeping FFE on something, you can cast one other spell, and then your on empty. This assuming you didn't even give any to your jacks. I want to say battle lust was a 3 cost spell. Air burst is a 3 cost. Plus if your upkeeping tactical supremacy. He just has so many places that you need/want to put his focus.

Don't forget martial discipline and total obedience are only for your infantry machine, but then he has his warjack bond(not great but not bad either). It is like two different devs were working on him, and they took half of each of their ideas.

When I first started playing, I played a ton of eIrusk. He was the first model I painted, but after a while I realized he just doesn't seem to excel at anything except trying to stand off for as long as possible. Things like hey, I can send behemoth forward 7" in a trample and pull him back 6" after shooting if I really wanted to.

I felt like shooting holes in eIrusk today apparently. ><!

Zerkova, Harkevich and Old Witch are the only casters really feeling my love right now in Khador. pVlad is floating around there, but meh.

[correlation2]

As some people have noted, this just has to be the natural progression of the game. IF Kayazy and WGIDS were causing insane forum arguments and probably turning players off to the game. Instead of nerfing it they've just introduced counters.

We've been seeing the trend towards larger AOE sizes as part of the high def shenanigans counter. It's not surprising that Cygnar's getting more auto-hitting lightning jazz. This from their Stormcaller caster, and those guys can already do it. He just does it better.


We still have some pretty solid counters. I think some of our other units like Widowmakers are going to be hit a bit harder by this, especially if it doesn't require LOS.

[Tossy]

This is the main issue though. Show us our shiny goodness.

If everyone is getting counters to us why aren't we getting them. We still don't have a bile thrall counter or insane armour droppers (also from cryx), or an upkeep or continuous effect dropper (fire has killed my caster from eyeless sight shooters more times than I like to think about)

Basically all I see is that Khador is slipping into the grind. I played a game against eHayley tier 4 and was almost wiped off the table in turn 2... then completely after he feated. We are slow with no way to be faster. Cygnar are low armored with 1'000'000 armour buffs (they can get to our armor levels). Cryx are a glass cannon but have incorporeal or armor buffs. Menoth are Menoth and can deal with anything easily and laugh at you while doing it. Then there is hordes.

Give us a speed buff, or a Mat buff... hell give Rhupert a hug and tell him we will break his pipes if he doesn't play misty for us...

I feel like Khador is being hit by the nerf bat by making everyone else stronger.

Saying all that though. I don't think Nemo's gun is any worry, seriously...

*The content of this rant may or may not be the actual opinion of Tossy. Just outlining the general feel of this thread*

[Ganso]

Hmm, people may have to learn how to play with more jacks, its a crazy idea I know. Except I know a lot of good Khador players doing it.

The meta was 1 jack, tons of high def infantry... it might need to switch around, to become more balanced versus this.

If (and I'm still not sold on this) the meta does make our top Tier Infantry obsolete we will be force into relying on more jacks, that I agree with.

However, unless we get the tools to patch up our mid tier choices, we will be force to play at a great disadvantage at worst or with inefficient lists at best.

[Duckboy]

I think his ability is manageable. Though I don't see a whole lot of cygnar in my meta but it can be dealt with within khador. We might play with a lot of infantry but our infantry is freakin good.

[Joasht]

I'm trying to figure out how to work this into a bendy pike joke, but nothing is coming to me. :p
Maybe I'm blessed, but I've never seen this bendy pike thing being an issue....I've had my IFPs since Mk.I, I play them in almost every list of mine, and I (obviously) cart them around all the place, and my pikes never bend....ever....

That said, I'm fully supportive of the IFPs returning to their (rightful) position as (at least near to) the top of the infantry roster :P

[correlation2]

Well I personally feel like a lot of the "nerfs" to Khador have been mechanical nerfs that have been virtually unavoidable.

Shaking stationary, reform ( and the way the shift to completing actions affects IFP minifeat ), aoe sizes, these are all core game changes that were necessary for the franchise to thrive. They also just happen to hit aspects of Khador that have traditionally been very powerful. Now the same thing is happening to HIGH DEF in a variety of ways, although this one gun alone isn't the whole problem.



I don't think we're SOL though. Wrath's fluff seems to suggest we might be looking at a future release that will suppress Incorporeal. This could be a fluff only project or it could be a Greylord orientated model we'll see later that will give out Magical Weapon to Faction Friendlies. That would certainly be a leg up in fighting certain armies like Menoth and Cryx.

Karchev also threatens to go epic at some point in the future. Possibly in a condensed suit of MOW armor as a real MOW caster? That would simply be amazing and help patch up an issue there. I'm not 100% convinced this will happen, but you never know. Seems to me we have 3 casters poised to go epic after Vlad. ( Zerkova, Strakhov, Karchev )



Another light in the dark is Harkevich's feat. That's my opinion anyway. I think that PP has finally gotten over their "fear" of letting Khador stack ARM. I think they might realize now that there's more than enough stuff in the game to deal with High ARM in its own ways that 1-2 turns of it isn't too big an issue. A Centurion under Stryker's feat and Arcane Shield could hit like ARM 29 or something stupid like that since MK1. So we might start seeing some general ARM buffs in the future ( like on the Black Dragon IFP ) which could prove immensely useful on our infantry. It would be nice to see some WGI or whatever hunker down and survive some blast damage or the occasional bullet to the chest.

( I mean they are wearing metal chest armor which raises its value to like 12-13 or something over Trencher wool coat's 10-11 but... it's rarely that useful as it is. )

[Matthaeus]

IF Kayazy and WGIDS were causing insane forum arguments and probably turning players off to the game.I can relate to this. Hearing that Khador's "most competitive" options were completely at odds with its concept as advertized was a decisive turnoff for me at the time of choosing a faction.

[The Captain]

We don't even know what else Nemo3 can do. Okay, so he has a trick to deal with D3+1 (or 2D3+2 in optimum situations) low-ARM infantry models per turn from a whopping 14 inches away. But what else can he do? Can he protect his troops (or himself!) from our attacks? Can he make the rest of the Swans to hit harder? Can he board control? Can he speed up his whole army?

Really, if the best he can do is shoot a few infantry models per turn, we shouldn't be crying. It's not like Cygnar was wanting for more POW10's anyway. Nemo3 will probably be either boosting to hit or targeting his own electrical-immune model on the initial shot, meaning either less focus to use elsewhere or fewer of our models getting hit. Nothing our Widowmakers haven't been able to do since Prime Mk1.

Just bring more bodies. There's plenty more where those came from.

[Octavius_Maximus]

We are slow with no way to be faster.

We have 48 In faction Speed and movement bonuses, not including abilities that give Pathfinder.

[OMM_Lukav]

I think Wrath has provided us a few great tools that will go a long way to helping us out with SR's (when they all release)

- a new 25 ARM Clamshell that can bulldoze and hold objectives (that is 4 jacks now who can bulldoze)
- a great new ranged jack who is even better with his caster
- a way to heal our heavy infantry
- awesome ninja girls who can cause havok without any support needed
- a BE that has great synergy with a number of casters

We tend to look at what the others get and not focus enough on what we have.

Eliminators and Black Ivan are clear winners. Gun Carriage is slowing winning over the masses. Officer has some supporters and the Demolisher has a lot of critics...but i think will win people over when it is played more WHEN it is released.

I say we are in a good spot. Are auto includes may not be so reliable any more. Fair enough, but we do have the tools and all tournaments allow multiple lists...time to just have a well prepared list.

[OrsusSmash]

We don't even know what else Nemo3 can do. Okay, so he has a trick to deal with D3+1 (or 2D3+2 in optimum situations) low-ARM infantry models per turn from a whopping 14 inches away. But what else can he do? Can he protect his troops (or himself!) from our attacks? Can he make the rest of the Swans to hit harder? Can he board control? Can he speed up his whole army?

Really, if the best he can do is shoot a few infantry models per turn, we shouldn't be crying. It's not like Cygnar was wanting for more POW10's anyway. Nemo3 will probably be either boosting to hit or targeting his own electrical-immune model on the initial shot, meaning either less focus to use elsewhere or fewer of our models getting hit. Nothing our Widowmakers haven't been able to do since Prime Mk1.

Just bring more bodies. There's plenty more where those came from.

+1, etc.

Cygnar has always excelled at cleaning weenie infantry off the table, regardless of DEF (and in Mk. 2, Stealth is a lot less effective against them than it used to be.)

We should start sweating a bit more if/when it's revealed that Nemo3 has some kind of horrible anti-armor abilities, because that's when things get really nasty. ;)

I actually think it's really cool that the old man has finally lapped around to becoming essentially a Stormsmith warcaster.

[Marth]

And given that he is apparently a weaker storm tower with better mobility, I suppose that electrical attack spells might actually be quite light on him. pNemo had both Chain Lightning, Voltaic Snare and his Love Glove. For eNemo, Voltaic Snare became an effect on his weapon, and he had lightning burst (or whatever that's called). Now, leNemo has Chain Lightning on his gun, so it won't appear in his spells. Barring to know what his feat does (I bet you it'll again be about jacks), it's hard to tell how the wheel has turned, that is, which abilities from the previous incarnation were retained, even though in different locations.

[epyonliu]

I hope all these releases of anti-high-DEF stuff means a shift of meta in the future. Currently most of the factions can bring one or two decent anti-Khador/anti-infantry lists. But if you put down things like Karchev, a lot of your opponents would cry. I've seen this many times:) In a general two-list SR tournament I will have my pIrusk and Karchev lists handed to my opponents. They will have some hard time deciding whether to pull out his anti-high-DEF infantry list. More often than not they have to as they know if I eventually pick pIrusk they will have a hard time if they don't pick their well crafted anti-Khador list~

I'm not saying that it is easier for me to pick from my two casters as there is a fair chance that I will get a bad-match-up as well. But at worst it is a 50-50 situation and the current meta more or less forces my opponent to go with his amazing anti-Khador list. We also have scenario caster in the form of old witch etc. So all I see is the shifted meta encourages variety of lists.

I hope all these mean a more balanced game system instead of dominating death-stars. And surely I wish PP will compensate us by giving us more options to go MoW heavy or jack heavy:D which, I believe everyone here will agree, is what Khador truely should be

PS: here by saying "anti-Khador" I mean the general anti-Khador-infantry lists:)

[Havock]

No, everything should be an option. Winter Guard is just as much Khador as the plodding Juggernaut. The Iron Fang Pikeman just as much as the MoW shocktrooper.

Which gives me an idea... Man o War Pikemen...

With concussion pikes.

[Flak Maniak]

Well I'm glad if the game shifts away from high-DEF infantry, but we do need more 'jack support, and specifically 'jack support that works on battlegroup 'jacks. I'd be very happy if we got just a bit of 'jack-buffing stuff in Colossals. Hell, I'd even be willing to accept marshals if they did enough for their controlled 'jacks... Which I doubt they would, but still. (And marshals don't let pButcher and Harkevich and Karchev command 'jacks better, so... Meh.)

[Caecus Scius]

I think that PP is smarter than most people give them credit for. Basically, in many games there exists a sort of rock/paper/sciscor of strategy types Sometimes, it goes to the level of rock/paper/sciscors/lizard/spock... but still there is a sort of counter counter strategy going on.

If PP wants to look at balancing all factions, they look to what is "teir 1" what is played and abused the most. Then they have 2 options, create new units to counter that, or pump up options that are at the bottom teir.

PP has obviously realized that infantrymachine is taking over warmachine, and is taking appropriate steps. They can either come out with new jacks that are strictly better, but that hurts them overall as it makes all other jacks no longer worth taking. They can come out with more jack casters (which they have) or create an environment where high def infantry is no longer the best choice as there also exist ways to stop it.


So for our game, everyone is playing paper- few jacks lots of high def infantry (current Meta). But soon people start taking Sciscors -lots of anti infantry which does great versus paper. People THEN start to take rock- lots of jacks that don't care about all the auto hit power 10s. THEN people start playing paper again, etc etc etc. After a little while, you don't know what is going to do well so you guess and play any of the 3.

I played competitive MTG at a high level for over 8 years. Basically most tournaments you took X deck, or a deck to beat X. A few people would do well playing someone random that purposely did well versus both X and Anti X. However X would still ussually be 6 out of 8 top spots. There was simply a best deck to play most of the time. It got very stagnant and people just kept looking for the next X, without ever trying to come up with it themselves. I never played X, I always played something unexpected, and often I would top 8, but sometimes I would scrub out early. I didn't care- for me it was more about playing my way and not net decking. It meant more that my deck which no one was playing, no one had seen, no one knew was coming did well- because the credit was on me.


I think this is what is going on: Currently (at least as far as I can see from the forumites that yell the loudest) if you don't play your khador like X your doing it wrong. That is simply the best way to play. That way being Paper right now. (I personally don't subscribe to that)- by countering paper it makes 2/3rds of the models people aren't playing with playable... it works. Balance doesn't mean you make everything stronger to make it as strong as the strongest option, balance means you can take some things down a notch and raise up others.


Some balancing factors we have seen from Wrath-
Khador
Mow are repairable- raising their level
Harkevich is a JACK caster, and does well verus infantry (aoe spam)- lowering level of infantymachine
Gun Carriage is anti infantry machine (large aoes, trample, impact, high armor)- Lowering infantrymachine
Eliminators are self sufficient version of their larger cousin (lessing impact of anti infantry measures)
Demolisher is most glorious anti infantry for his excellence's fortune

Cygnar- got an infantry caster, boosting their spam armies- and a huge aoe jack, as well as a light anti infantry one- got a kovnik joe to help their infantry and got an anti infantry war engine.

Cryx- got anti jack battle engine, some anti-infantry jacks, a means to run more jacks (jack marshall)

Menoth got everything under the sun like always, so did retribution. Both of these armies run jacks and infantry spam equally as well.

Cygnar did not tend to run a lot of infantry, so they got support to do so. Khador got support to run more shooty jacks, and more anti infantry love in general. Overall the anti infantry was strong in wrath.

More anti infantry is GOOD for the game. If the teir 1 things aren't as good because there are options available for taking them out. Then it balances the game out some making our non teir one units better by comparison. Sure my awesome kayazy and WGDS are not as good... they sort of get nerfed, but its ok because my other units got better by comparison and I can play with more cool stuff. Its not like Kayazy and WGDS will never be worth taking, it just means they aren't auto includes- they have hard counters, and its more readily available.

[OMM_Lukav]

That is an insanely great post Caecus Scius. It is what I was thinking, but not saying very well!

[Duckboy]

Nice post Caecus. I agree on all accounts.

[Darguth]

My issue with eIrusk has always been that he is halfway between a jack caster and an infantry caster, which means he doesn't do either very well.

Off-topic but if you think eIrusk does not excel as an infantry caster, you're doing it wrong. Sure, he has some jack support, but he is the epitome of an infantry-support caster.

[Duckboy]

Off-topic but if you think eIrusk does not excel as an infantry caster, you're doing it wrong. Sure, he has some jack support, but he is the epitome of an infantry-support caster.

I would have to disagree to a certain point. I wouldn't say he is the epitome but yes he does do it.

[Havock]

I think there should be some development towards 'across the board competitiveness', the balance is somewhat skewed towards high-def (though not so much that it makes, say, IFP unplayable), we do not know all the things PP has in store for Khador but I suspect it will be a case of taking a bit away from A and giving us more in B.

And yes, we do -need- something choir-ish (or Journeyman warcaster-ish) to run more than 2 jacks without a 'jack-buddy caster (and even then, most people will want that Koldun Lord for power booster)

In my opinion, 'War' in Warmachine means just that, combined arms should be the norm, 'jack spam or infantry spam extremes. Khador, not having any lights and having fairly focus hungry warjacks which also tend to be on the expensive end of the spectrum (due to being heavies) means that, yes, you normally take one expensive one because you can't run two (let alone three+) without not having much besides your initials, which normally means your output is just... Not as much as it would be with one pumped up 'jack and some infantry with the right buffs. Were we to have something akin to a choir, or even actually decent jack marshalls, you'd see more 'jacks.

Not saying it can't be done but at 35 pts, you won't have much wiggle space to include two of our ten-pointers next to a decent infantry core.

[Kurb]

Make my Assault Kommando's, MoW's, Kossites, Jack Marshalls, and ability to run multiple jacks. comparable to their cross faction counterparts and I could give a damn what you give everyone else.

[Mercykiller]

Kommando Bombardier solo, that suddenly makes them cousins of uber-power.

No?

Damn :P

[correlation2]

"So one of them little guys that tries to look like us took a Defender round right to the chest."
"Aw dang, he must've come apart like a rotten pumpkin!"
"Yep. Anyway so I've got all his guts & gears all over me when along comes one of those Cleanser guys and I'm thinking, 'aw, I'm screwed'"
"Then what happened?!"
"Nothing! Guy blasts me with the flamethrower and I'm as happy as a pig in mud. Not quite sure how it happened but I'm not gonna complain."
"Dang. Gotta get me some of that AK goop."

[Kurb]

Kommando Bombardier solo, that suddenly makes them cousins of uber-power.

No?

Damn :P

I like this idea.

Man of War Kommandos

All the MOW and AK abilities.

20 points for 10 ? :D

[Caecus Scius]

BETTER jack marshalls would be the one thing that lets us run more jacks for less cost. Already a Kovnik can a few jacks that aren't hungry for focus- such as a destroyer or marauder. Boost + drive is all they need to pretty much do their thing.

I don't like the koldun lord to run jacks most of the time. too squishy and not enough bonus.

Give AK's a great UA with jackmarshall and a good drive... golden. Give us a solo with the power of thor... yeah.

Basically if Pvlad's feat effected all jacks regardless of battle group- i'd run marshaled jacks with him.

Wishing, but looking at how to do it differently. I'll make a tactica article about running 3 jacks without a jack caster- because it can be done, maybe people just don't know yet. I don't marshall, but I wish I could-

[Blaque]

Reading threads like this and elsewhere makes me wonder if some metas never had Krueger1 or Kromac in MkI. As noted already, we don't know what else Nemo may have in regards to anti-infantry, and at least for me, much worse has existed in cocnentrated form from Circle for a while.

I also think some trends people are noticing are more the rules catching up the the realities of the game. For instnace, more 4" and 5" AOEs probably results from, as the current formation rules work, 3" AOEs have generally been seen as practically pointless save as a toss-away, in my view. It is in part making those attacks seem actually valuable on the often large single-attack models with them. As an example, would not many Khador player not thing the Destoryer would be more an actually 9-pt warjack if it had a 4" AOE in its bombard?

And stuff.

[Kuarnix]

Reading threads like this and elsewhere makes me wonder if some metas never had Krueger1 or Kromac in MkI. As noted already, we don't know what else Nemo may have in regards to anti-infantry, and at least for me, much worse has existed in cocnentrated form from Circle for a while.


Or if nobody is currently running Kruegar with Bloodtrackers and Nuala. Lightning Tendrils + Quick Work + Prey = yikes. Or really, just Kruegar.

[Havock]

BETTER jack marshalls would be the one thing that lets us run more jacks for less cost. Already a Kovnik can a few jacks that aren't hungry for focus- such as a destroyer or marauder. Boost + drive is all they need to pretty much do their thing.

I don't like the koldun lord to run jacks most of the time. too squishy and not enough bonus.


Indeed, if I take one I just use it to give a free focus to my battlegroup. We need something better even if it ends up a blatant greylord-choir-ripoff. Though I would prefer something a bit more unique :p

[Ninja5]

really i just wish the koldun could hand out 1 focus to any number of jacks within 5 inches even if said jacks had focus already allocated to them. of course not to exceed allocation limits. that way it doesn't make 1 jack totally uber. instead it just gives a little extra oomph to multiple jacks.

[sleet01]

If you guys want a taste of what 'jack marshals *could* be, I highly recommend playing a game or two with a few marshaled 'jacks and the Olgunholt League Madelyn Corbeau. Every time *a* 'jack marshal activates in her CMD range, *all* marshaled warjacks in her CMD gain a focus.

Not "are allocated," gain.

It's a little antagonistic with Power Booster, as the focus will be gained before Power Booster can be used, but then you can always use PB on the 'caster's warjack. If for example you take a Koldun Lord, two MOW Kovniks, a 'jack for each, and Corbeau, then those three 'jacks will each get three focus a turn in addition to the Marshal boost. Should you choose to toss in Thor or Rutger you can give each 'jack four focus, etc. Combined with Drives this lets the 'jacks run at max output even when well separated from your 'caster, although of course it requires maneuvering Corbeau correctly each turn.

I've been running lists like this with my Mercs and it's very nice to get three focus on two or three heavies every turn, while my caster uses his or her focus for spells. Of course I am giving up access to Battlegroup-only effects and the ability to shake, and paying a premium in points as well, but it does let the 'jacks operate at full efficiency all the time, and finally puts them on even terms with Warbeasts.