Thinking out of the "Iron Flesh"

[Steamwitch]

In my personal abscene I have noticed with satisfaction the khador community has started an active attempt at reviseing there personal tacticas with the evolution of the game. I thought it might be a good idea to attemp to contribute as well. And i figgured looking at the "Iron Crutchs" would be a good place to start. with where the evolution of the game is going spamming high Def units is no longer an auto include as it once was. With our faction being one of the more effected by this trend we should make a constructive thread about what may work useing our current recources. Not crying about what we need, or may get. I personally have started to look at MoW a bit more. What about the rest of you? Who is willing to think out of the iron flesh! I dont mean the next defineing meta buster we can toss out by the way but something that keeps us as a faction alive in the game.

[x3tsniper]

I ordered a unit of STs and democorp yesterday. >.> I have had a min pewter unit of STs since I started playing. Already have plastic bombadiers. I have no idea yet what I will field them with, but I will have them in a week or so...

[Tyr852]

I was thinking Boomhowler or ST's but I find the ST's get wrecked almost as easily but I play much Menoth who I swear are all weaponsmasters.

[John of Arc]

MoW still lack speed, which is a major drawback. I suspect people are going to pay a lot more attention to Iron Fang Pikemen, however. You can run them 12 inches and still benefit from shield wall once per game, and they're resistant to a lot of the anti-infantry tech coming out recently. Doom Reavers will also have a place, since they die just as easily as other units but are so much faster and deadly, not to mention possible tough.

[Caecus Scius]

The new Iron Flesh trick will be High Def/High Arm models. IFP, BoomHowlers, and AKs. With both good def and good armor, it counters a lot of the spammy stuff.

[nerdkingdan]

I am very new to the game. 4 games so far, I started with a full death star, and 1 jack. And expanded off that after reading our book and comparing to those my friends had it seemed the obvious choice....

However, I can't help but think the answer is in a jack heavy list, rather than mow spam. Mow's appear to be our light jack. Which brings me to a third option zerkova's hunting wolf list and vanguards. Sure it's 1 list but it can combine high defense infantry with lots of jacks. Perhaps jack Marshalled destroyers...

Another thought I had was berserker spam?

I am not sold on mows in mass. However, as I said I am new.

[Havock]

I think it's a progression. When you first start out, Iron Flesh seems very powerful -and it is-, but to do anything you have to let it go, and unless you want to pull your punch you generally cannot recast it (although I have seen and done some daring feat-runs with eSorscha ending in a relatively exposed but DEF-camped caster). But consider pIrusk, you can either go nuts with Battle-Lust x2 or half-assed with Battlelust & Iron Flesh (unless you are camping IF on yourself and casting BL twice after upkeep but...yeah)

[Steamwitch]

I was looking for more in faction kind of stuff tho i do own a full boomhowler unit and nyss unit. But i see what manny are saying here is speed is an issue but is that not what a big part of khador is? I will start another thread so tjis ones not deraild.

[Demitra]

High DEF has been worthless for me over the last month or so. I've had more Iron Fleshed Kayazy chopped down in melee by peons than I can count, to say nothing of Bile Thralls and Chain Lightning and Ashes to Ashes. As such, I've been looking towards high ARM for an upcoming tournament in the form of Harkevich running four jacks and Shock Troopers. Will it work? I have no idea, but since the usual routes of WGI and Kayazy have stopped working I have to look at other options.

[The_Bionic_Labrat]

Epic Irusk + his wall of MoW Shocktroops, with some winter guard running in as the second wave. Solid.

[Trihnicus]

Kayazy are still cheap brutally effective infantry yes? They still have Stealth and High Defense which is still useful but They always were Mortal. I don't think that searching for the next shiny thing is necessarily the answer. I think you will see Trends away from Two bricks of Kayazy / Kayazy and WGI and Nyss in the same list. I don't think your cloud of assassins lurking in the shadows is any less of a threat as long as you have the Beefy ****s also in a threatening position.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Iron Flesh is a spell i dont really like to use. I just dont find it as useful as people seem to show here on the forums.

On Kayazy, they are either going to roll average and miss, or bring out Double 6's and they die. I never saw how +3 def helped this.

I dont use or own Winter Guard Infantry, but i guess i can see it on them.

Winter Guard Riflemen rarely get attacked, so I dont see the point.

To be honest, the only people who have gotten any use out of it have been my Demo Corps. Iron Flesh+Greylord Clouds means Def 16, Arm 16 and 8 wounds. Great for protecting the Butcher.

[John of Arc]

Going from needing 9's to needing boxcars is tge difference between being a tarpit, and being almost invincible against melee attacks. That being said, I feel like IFP or AK's with Iron Flesh are overall more survivable. Difficult to hit, difficult to kill with blasts and chain lightning.

[Octavius_Maximus]

I guess. My play-style doesn't really rely on tarpits, I guess. So I never use them effectively.

[dangerparty]

I definitely think that the meta-game will switch to high armor. Expect to see more MOWs, AKs, and IFPs in most lists. You will see a lot of Trolls and Khadors swinging to the top of the local scenes.

[psichotykwyrm]

The new Iron Flesh trick will be High Def/High Arm models. IFP, BoomHowlers, and AKs. With both good def and good armor, it counters a lot of the spammy stuff.

I have always been a fan of a full unit of Shock Troopers given Iron Flesh. Yes they are slow, but a good deployment and some initial running can see them blocking off certain sections of the board. (pButcher's tier benefit helps.)

I love my MoWs, and still do not own any Kayazy as of yet.

[johnnyspys]

I find this thread somewhat interesting. I started the game thinking high armor and got crushed by tournament winning players. I went to high defense and I am now winning games all the time against tough opponents and mean armies. Circle never have a problem wrecking beast in one turn, but they have a problem with KA with Iron Flesh (unless they use an AOE). My circle opponent hates...absolutely hates Winter Guard Death Star with Iron Flesh. The only thing worse than WGDS with IF is WGDS with signs and portants and Joes extra die with spray attacks...lol wipes out the field. Hint: spread your WG out, keep Joe in the rear with a few troops so they can die for him, your leader and banner in the rear, run first turn, bob and weave second , with tough and fearless from Joe and when you are ready to smack people, give them an extra die for shooting sprays and combined shooting.

Please someone explain how high armor matters compared to high defense if you run your KA into combat? They have defense 19. Yes, lightening attacks are brutal and effective, but that is only one of the very few solutions to KA in combat. When I use low defense high armor guys they melt like butter because there are so many anti armor spams from cryx, circle, and menoth that high armor is easily compensated for by these armies.

[Octavius_Maximus]

I find this thread somewhat interesting. I started the game thinking high armor and got crushed by tournament winning players. I went to high defense and I am now winning games all the time against tough opponents and mean armies. Circle never have a problem wrecking beast in one turn, but they have a problem with KA with Iron Flesh (unless they use an AOE). My circle opponent hates...absolutely hates Winter Guard Death Star with Iron Flesh. The only thing worse than WGDS with IF is WGDS with signs and portants and Joes extra die with spray attacks...lol wipes out the field. Hint: spread your WG out, keep Joe in the rear with a few troops so they can die for him, your leader and banner in the rear, run first turn, bob and weave second , with tough and fearless from Joe and when you are ready to smack people, give them an extra die for shooting sprays and combined shooting.

Please someone explain how high armor matters compared to high defense if you run your KA into combat? They have defense 19. Yes, lightening attacks are brutal and effective, but that is only one of the very few solutions to KA in combat. When I use low defense high armor guys they melt like butter because there are so many anti armor spams from cryx, circle, and menoth that high armor is easily compensated for by these armies.

Armour isnt supposed to save you from everything, its meant to be a buffer against many types of damage which simply doesnt work.

I think the easiest way to think about it is that there are many hard counters to high def (rolling Double 6's, Aoes, Electro Leap, equalling defence to hit) while there are very few hard counters to high armour. (Sniper, Anatomical precision). The charge bonus is what makes people think armour isnt as good as defence, and that is true to an extent. But i think that is because people theoryhammer and see that pow is higher than mat, and that pow can easily get 3D6 for damage. But if you want to take advantage of armour, your job is to make sure that they dont get that chance to capitalise on your armour when they are strongest.

[LunarSol]

pButcher and Boomhowlers is on the list of things I'd like to try out. I also need to get my IFP painted up. The WGDS is still doing me proud though.

[Kuarnix]

Please someone explain how high armor matters compared to high defense if you run your KA into combat? They have defense 19. Yes, lightening attacks are brutal and effective, but that is only one of the very few solutions to KA in combat. When I use low defense high armor guys they melt like butter because there are so many anti armor spams from cryx, circle, and menoth that high armor is easily compensated for by these armies.

So, just like roughly (in my estimation) half the infantry in the game has trouble doing serious damage to ARM 20+ without help, the vast majority of infantry has trouble dealing with DEFs above 15 without help. However, I find that when high def low arm infantry encounters these things, they get murderized. One of the more entertaining things to do to a Khador player when you're playing Asphyxious (geez, I play too many factions, but I've been on both sides of this one) is to nail the untouchable Kayazy Assassins with Parasite (not hard at all, 10's to hit with a re-roll if you have Iron Flesh), and then use your feat to hit them with a pow 5....which now kills 'em on 4's. Circle can do the same kind of stuff (Wraithbane + Wild Aggression, Kruegar's feat, Hellmouth, etc), but again I think that most of the answers tend to be tied to a warcaster. Very few infantry units or jacks/beasts can take out Def 15+ efficiently. On the flip side, I think you can take something in most factions to beat down ARM 20, regardless of your warcaster choice. If people play a lot of casters that can handle the nasty high DEF infantry, you might see a bit of a shift away from it. At least, when playing vs. certain players :p.

[Col_Festus]

The answer is simple. Don't use iron flesh as your only tool. It's one of many. When you first see it on the board you'll be impressed and think that's what Khador is all about. Then you'll run into someone who has experience dealing with it and you'll get curb stomped. A truely good Khador player can use Iron Flesh in conjunction with things like solid placement, double stacking threats, and understanding threat ranges. Iron Flesh does not make you a better player, but a better player will make Iron Flesh amazing. That's why in the end it's truly powerful and a great spell.

[Kuarnix]

The answer is simple. Don't use iron flesh as your only tool. It's one of many. When you first see it on the board you'll be impressed and think that's what Khador is all about. Then you'll run into someone who has experience dealing with it and you'll get curb stomped. A truely good Khador player can use Iron Flesh in conjunction with things like solid placement, double stacking threats, and understanding threat ranges. Iron Flesh does not make you a better player, but a better player will make Iron Flesh amazing. That's why in the end it's truly powerful and a great spell.


Yup, right on.

[Trihnicus]

OR play Vlad... Vlad doesn't care... He is a little disappointed with all the racket going on.

[Havock]

The answer is simple. Don't use iron flesh as your only tool. It's one of many. When you first see it on the board you'll be impressed and think that's what Khador is all about. Then you'll run into someone who has experience dealing with it and you'll get curb stomped. A truely good Khador player can use Iron Flesh in conjunction with things like solid placement, double stacking threats, and understanding threat ranges. Iron Flesh does not make you a better player, but a better player will make Iron Flesh amazing. That's why in the end it's truly powerful and a great spell.

Part of the learning process.

When I introduced IF into my small before-then beast-heavy Hordes meta I broke it.
"what can we do against a mob of DEF16 dudes with reach and crit knockdown?"
Quite a lot, and then you see people using wild aggression and wraithbane to counter it.

Some time later it becomes just another tool in the shed rather than a 'crutch'. Conclusion: you became a better player.

iron Flesh is however indespensable if you want to go for the counter. Be it IFP, Kayazy or WGI, it gives you a front line that requires a lot of attention to fold.
"this is my castle from which I shall sally forth."