How to win at end.

[nerdkingdan]

I am still new but I seem to do well in the beginning. When I have lots of army left I'm able to work with it together. Most my wins are in the time I have a chunk of army and I can use it together.

I have lost 4 games now, all of which involved me getting my warcaster killed after destroying most of the enemy army. 2 of them it was caster vs caster. 2 of them I should have won I was so far ahead but i blew it.

At the tail end of a game when very little is left I am at a loss of how to use my caster alone to do stuff. Right now I have both Sorchas. Zerkova I ordered Irusk and butcher that have not yet arrived, I wanted the old poses.


I tried running in and blowing my focus on a big Melee attack, I tried spell slinging. I tried camping focus and self heals, What I miss?

Thanks

[quindraco]

When it boils down to caster on caster, it depends on the two specific casters. Prime Vlad and Kraye will approach the problem radically differently, for example. However, many casters are simply very inferior at that point, since their rules focus on things like support more than beatstickery. Part of playing the game is understanding what your caster is good at and then playing to his, her, or its strengths.

[Boomfex]

It is hard to give advice when we do not know what kind of army you are fielding or what you are facing.

It is not suprising if you are playing a support caster like Zerkova and failed to kill Terminus with all of your focus.

It would also not be suprising if Kromak managed to warpath a Stalker into your face after the rest of his army died tying you up.

[nerdkingdan]

Well in a attrition game you may end up caster vrs caster.

Then what? If your Khador, Sorcha, Zerkova, Irusk, what are some general strategies,

I Ran in blew my focus, failed to kill him, his turn I die... What are the strategies for caster vrs caster as a khador support caster?

[bentron4000]

I always found pSorscha to be really good late game when they're not much left. With speed 6, wind rush and her handcannon she can be pretty hard for other casters to pin down while she takes lots of late game pot shots with her gun to whittle them down.

[Caecus Scius]

Don't even worry about this... just play the game more. Just keep playing- and it will become apparent. Its not like ANYONE on the forums here can give you advice that will help you in this situation. You simply need more time on the table, and you will figure all that out.

Learning how to play your caster (aggressively or defensively) and specific tactics and strategies are going to come with more play time and nothing else. The more you know about what the enemy will/can do, and what you can do- then you won't need to ask. Learn from your mistakes, while your caster is the best fighter and top piece in your army, it is also a liability. Learn to achieve a balance between using your caster and protecting it.

Play more..... have fun.

[quindraco]

Well in a attrition game you may end up caster vrs caster.

Then what? If your Khador, Sorcha, Zerkova, Irusk, what are some general strategies,

I Ran in blew my focus, failed to kill him, his turn I die... What are the strategies for caster vrs caster as a khador support caster?

So, first of all, ask your opponent to play a scenario, not caster kill. It's how the game is meant to be played, and playing caster kill not only biases your list building, it biases how you play, and ruins game balance, since a number of casters are only good at scenarios but a caster good at assassinations can assassinate in any context. When playing a support caster, particularly an attrition one, it's really in your best interest to have a scenario in play.

Second of all, if you can't beat the enemy caster in a fight - and if you're Zerkova, odds are you can't - do whatever you have to to avoid getting into caster on caster. You'll know from the beginning of the game what's in your opponents' list, and if his caster is not a fight you can win with your caster, avoid that fight and win with your army.

[nerdkingdan]

I see what you all are saying, I was just hoping for some guidelines for starting out. It may very well be I lost the game at an earlier point when I let it get to caster vrs caster.

[digitalrob]

Ya once you play more you will be able to look at situations completely different. I am fairly new still and sometimes tend to think I am doomed in some instances as I watch all my troops fall only to charge their warcaster with pbutcher next turn with full focus. I played a legion game last night that I was whining to my friend about ALL game (he ran that dragon looking warlock with ALL shredders at 35 points). It was hands down the most OP list I had ever played and it was stressing me out. But butcher prevailed in the end.

I would not have won if I was not playing more and more. Try and get a few games in a week at least. Learn new rules and learn your troops strengths and weaknesses.

Try butcher out. Caster V Caster MOST people are afraid to get in range of him. They may do so thinking its going to be over and then realize that he has stupid defense which is going to give him a chance to put axe to face to them next turn.

[rivenwyrm]

As a faction, Khador is actually okay-to-good at the end game. It's part of the reason I like the faction. However, ya gotta know which casters are good, and which are just okay.

pVlad (long range, defense/offense are combined, and POW 16), eVlad (blood tokens + Martial Paragon is super nasty), pButcher (Lola), eButcher (Lola + thresher) and Karchev (Juggernaut chassis) can rock faces on their own
pSorscha (long range plus critical freeze is pretty good), eSorscha (same reasons) and OW (cast avatar of slaughter on yourself the turn before for MAT 8 and 7 focus) can at least represent
pIrusk (Iron Flesh makes him hard to kill, and his gun is RoF 2 so he can shoot a lot), Zerkova (Possible Razorwind of DOOOM!), and Harkevich (With escort up and fortune on himself) all get an honorable mention.

However, as others have said, you want to Fully Subjugate Your Enemies before the endgame. If you can hit them with a bombard mid-game, or pressure them into attacking a jack and using their focus up then counter-charging with your caster that can do it. Also, you should always always play a scenario. They alter the game significantly and IMO are important because they allow a variety of Khador builds.

[Saekyn]

Also, you should always always play a scenario. They alter the game significantly and IMO are important because they allow a variety of Khador builds.

That's not quite accurate for my area. I was in a tournament several months ago, 2/3 games were scenarios and every single game ended in caster kill. I think in all, maybe one person earned a single objective point for the day. Everyone was actually laughing in good humor because the coordinator took so much time to explain objective rules when everyone knew it wouldn't matter at all. If I recall, the armies were two Khador, one Circle (me), two Legion, and one Cygnar.

[John of Arc]

Again, it would help if we knew what you were playing against. But no, there's no general advice we can give here other than don't get into 1v1 fights with your caster if you can't handle it.

[John of Arc]

That's not quite accurate for my area. I was in a tournament several months ago, 2/3 games were scenarios and every single game ended in caster kill. I think in all, maybe one person earned a single objective point for the day. Everyone was actually laughing in good humor because the coordinator took so much time to explain objective rules when everyone knew it wouldn't matter at all. If I recall, the armies were two Khador, one Circle (me), two Legion, and one Cygnar.

Scenarios are important because they force action in the center of the table. If you're playing scenario, you can't play a Cygnar list that runs around your deployment zone kiting people all day. You can't play eVlad, get injured, then run him in the corner and heal up over the course of two turns. It decides who wins the game if it gets down to a stalemate, because chasing Caine or fighting out the Butcher vs. Karchev while both are camping focus is just a huge waste of time. I once kited Karchev with pSorscha for more than a dozen turns because my opponent wanted to play it out. It also means casters like Zerkova have a better shot at winning than they normally would. Scenarios eliminate a lot of stupid end-game corner case nonsense, add strategical depth to the game, and force action into the center of the table, all of which are good things.

[rivenwyrm]

That's not quite accurate for my area. I was in a tournament several months ago, 2/3 games were scenarios and every single game ended in caster kill. I think in all, maybe one person earned a single objective point for the day. Everyone was actually laughing in good humor because the coordinator took so much time to explain objective rules when everyone knew it wouldn't matter at all. If I recall, the armies were two Khador, one Circle (me), two Legion, and one Cygnar.

So, there are a couple things in play with scenarios. First off, if EVERYONE ignores the scenarios (i.e., doesn't try to pressure their opponent with it) then obviously they won't have any effect. However the point of scenarios is not necessarily to be the primary win condition. Rather, the point is to encourage a certain style of play, which is aggressive mixed-arms lists. The secondary point is to alleviate bad matchups (near unkillable casters or armor-spam vs infantry clearance lists) by presenting a way to pressure your opponent into playing your game rather than theirs. The tertiary point is to prevent absurd end-game run around nonsense, which is pointless and immensely annoying.

Also, some of the scenarios are rather difficult to score on. I personally like these ones less. However they still serve all the same points just as well.

In my meta, 2nd and 3rd place in all our tournaments have so far been determined by control points as tiebreakers (because we usually have 3+ people who went 3-1). The guy who usually takes first is often leading in control points anyways. So it has a pretty big effect for us.

[HRM]

So, first of all, ask your opponent to play a scenario, not caster kill. It's how the game is meant to be played, and playing caster kill not only biases your list building, it biases how you play, and ruins game balance, since a number of casters are only good at scenarios but a caster good at assassinations can assassinate in any context. When playing a support caster, particularly an attrition one, it's really in your best interest to have a scenario in play.

Personally I've never played a scenario - only 'caster kill. I don't even know how scenarios work. This whole "if you're not playing scenarios you're doing it wrong" attitude is kind of irksome.

Though, I suppose it likely IS annoying for my opponents to try and kill Butcher 1 at 15-25 points every time.

[thrasymacus]

All above is true, but I'll try and give some tips that speak directly to the question.

Fire is helpful. A burning caster is usually on a death clock. If the game is turning against you and you have the means, try to light them on fire. Usually you won't have that at your disposal as you probably don't run AK's and only Torch causes fire. I'm not sure if any Mercs cause fire but it's something to consider. This is very corner case, but just good to know.

Gorman di Wolf is probably the number one guy for assists when it comes to killing casters and Warlocks. If you can get him in position and everything else is more or less attritioned off, Gorman can pretty much shut anything down. Early game Gorman can be a one hit wonder, but late game he can lob grenade after grenade. Throw your grenades from 4" or less and you will never miss.

Slams. This is where Khador really sucks. We don't have slam bots. I'm playing Cryx now and I've almost always got some little light jack that can slam something over a caster. It's pretty awesome. Khador has the Bokur and the Kovnic which I will ignore. If you use your Bokur defensively or he's just managed to survive, he's your late game Slam Bot.

Math. Do the math on your assassination odds if you're not already. If you're going in for the kill make sure you fire everything you can at the Caster first before you engage and he gets the DEF buff for being in Melee. Nothing else matters at the point. Extricate your ranged troops from melee and if you can't then take the free strike and cross your fingers. OR camp focus and run to engage, but again, do the math first. If you're running to engage hoping to survive a turn of getting punched in the face 5 to 9 times by a Caster, try to tie up whatever is left of his army so that they can't give any assists of their own. Even if you're only DEF 14, it's better to stay on your feet to tempt them into buying boosted attack rolls and they will be looking at their force for any tools to debuff you so tie them up!

WARDOG!! Such a crazy good solo. So many uses. Read it's rules very carefully. Have fun with it. Most people forget the Wardog prevent back strike bonuses so tempt them in by turning your Caster backwards. Good for a laugh more than anything. Iron Flesh the Dog and your Caster will be at DEF 16+ while the Dog sits at DEF 16. Not always optimal, but sometimes it's the way to go. Quite often the dog will absorb an attack that they'd rather spend killing your caster, so know when to keep the dog safe and when to have it in range. SPD 7 is handy for counter charging into difficult terrain. Just talking about the Wardog makes me want to play Khador again!

[Frege]

Personally I've never played a scenario - only 'caster kill. I don't even know how scenarios work. This whole "if you're not playing scenarios you're doing it wrong" attitude is kind of irksome.

Though, I suppose it likely IS annoying for my opponents to try and kill Butcher 1 at 15-25 points every time.

Scenarios aren't hard to learn (most of them that is) and they *do* add another element to the game. I personally like that. Most games still end in caster kill but they definitely give options. It does skew what casters and options are good. And it does provide some answer to the OP.

Another thing is just not overcommitting your caster. Just because you are way ahead in terms of stuff killed doesn't mean your safe. It is part of what makes the game awesome. Those come from behind wins rock! Except when you are on the receiving end.. and it involves eCaine!!! Just remember, the turn you expose your caster is probably the turn you lose. So expose your caster only if it means winning.

There are also lots of little things you can do late game that dramatically increase your survivability. Like getting into some cover; e.g. wreck marker (especially if they are a ranged caster). Casting upkeeps on yourself (iron flesh!). Place your caster just out of range of their casters charge so they have to cast some sort of spell to get them in (this leaves them with less focus to finish the job).

Otherwise, play pVlad.

[Tyr852]

Just keep playing , with 4 casters and 2 being more aggressive and 2 being more defensive you'll figure out what you like to use more. Also have a goal of killing his caster and not the army , I've won many games because the opponent left a gap that I was able to exploit and we both still have a good chunk of our armies left.

Aaaand if you've only really lost 2 games , then you are doing pretty well for being new ;)