Adapting to the new anti-infantry tech; Who, what, how, and why?

[Raktra]

First off I'll apologise for my terrible skills at thread introductions.

Now as we all know, our typical go-to tournament infantry (WG, Nyss, Kayazi, all that jazz) of the high DEF, low ARM breed are coming under fire from the increasing number of ways that are being introduced to counteract this tactic, given that Colossals seems to be following Wrath's footsteps in that regard. On a whole for the game, pretty good. For us as a faction, rough. This shift is obviously going to prompt a shift in Khadoran tactics in the future in order to neutralise, or at the very least minimise the effect of, these changes.

So that's why I'm starting this thread. We've mentioned it plenty enough around and about in other threads, but to my memory we haven't dedicated a full discussion to it. We can look at the obvious, the weird, the sly, and the downright silly and see what we can devise as a community.

I'll be adding my initial thoughts/ lists tomorrow after I get back from work, a it's 1 a.m. here now and I need to pack myself away before I make a mess of my insights.

[quindraco]

Same answer as always. Spread out as much as possible, and if you're a WGI Deathstar, be Tough.

The only new tactic we have that I'm aware of is that a model that doesn't exist yet can give us Girded while making Ashes to Ashes, Chain Lightning, etc effectively automatically hit. Since it doesn't exist, it's hard to discuss it - none of us have tactical experience with it. Maybe we could proxy it?

[Khador247]

I honestly do thing that this meta shift is going to be a pretty big problem for Khador. Our two most effective infantry choices (WGI + Kayazy) are not going to fare very well in an AOE heavy environment. Our heavier infantry that can withstand the AOEs is unfortunately rather lackluster. Most of our casters struggle to run more than two warjacks. Our faction is good at putting out a bunch of AOEs but it is also pretty vulnerable to them.

[Seventhprophet]

My tactic is to pray to Thor, the thunder god, To fly to us on his golden chariot pulled by Tanngrisnir and Tanngnj and deliver to us a MoW solo/UA. Wish me luck.

[Digilante]

I think IFP are primed for a renaissance. If PP is as smart as I hope they are, there's a plastic rework of that unit in the works.

Kayazy, WGI and Nyss will still work and be good. Most anti-infantry tech is expensive (points- or focus-wise) and usually isn't as good in other rolls. By forcing them to take it they're still playing into our hands. From there you can either go for saturation (too many high DEF models for even their tech to deal with) or go for diversification (Add MoW, IFP, Boomhowlers, 'jacks, etc). I think that decision is up to how you want to expand your collection and play the game.

[Frege]

High DEF is still king. having some High arm in a 2nd list could provide the 'will he wont he' factor. But as quindraco said positioning is still everything. If you are used to high def saving you from everything and bunch up then you are probably being lazy.

[Joasht]

In my meta, if you ran both Kayazy and WG in the same list you were asking to die anyway :P
But thats kinda why I rate IFPs so highly; under certain circumstance they are more survivable, and they break heavier targets, which my meta is pretty heavy on.

[OldOneEye]

Like Digilante, I think this could be just the thing for Iron Fangs to see a return to popularity-- the Black Dragon UA in particular gives you a nice counter to low-ARM clearing with its mini-feat.

Other than that, I can see more of a combined arms approach. Man-o-War can be disappointing if they're the only thing in your list, but as a complement to some low-ARM units they could keep your opponent honest. Even the "soft" Demo Corps and Bombardiers wouldn't give a tinker's damn about POW 6 templates from a Conquest.

[Steamwitch]

i have been proxieing the jack quad is talking about. And, yea nail o the head chain lightning is hard… but spaceing is again king sorta like the doomie ua. (i like tuff so i take it anyway) but i have been toolin around with the units of IFP and im gonna start my MoW thanks to chainguns thread. Ugg so manny. But i think it a great thing for khador our tactics are getting stail and were lookin like cryx. Apply bains or bum rush with pile of x after droppin a debuff. Khador spam x with IF kinda butcher like in the light we are one dementional. I think AK may become more popular but they are still inaccurate. I think its the masks...but KA and WGI now become a kind of doomie choice kill it and let the rest come over, or get sprayed in the face?

[Bully Bully Mahu]

I am still relatively new to the faction, but I have been loving things like Demo Corps, and our plethora of fantastic damage options like the Drahkan, Great Bears, etc.

My opponents have been pretty good with dishing out the high defense tech. I have yet to have a good charge with Kayaze assasins, but I came to the realization that if they are putting enough effort into killing my front line infantry (which I may have spent less then half my points on) I can set up the charges for the slower elements. I really want to play around with Rifle Corps to be able to neutralize enemy infantry before they hit the lines, and I think Suppression Fire with the Old Witch might be kinda a awesome move.

I come from Skorne, so I know how rough it is to get melee infantry across the table. However, unlike Skorne, Khador has a lot of good ranged to put on the table, and some pretty awesome tricks to handle stealth. I have found when playing Khador, aggression is well rewarded, on all fronts. Let Sevy try to ashes to ashes my Kayaze, that is cool, how about he doesn't have any arc nodes anymore because I killed them. That has been my answer so far. :)

[Darguth]

Simple:

eIrusk (+5)
- Behemoth (13)
Man-O-War Shocktroopers <full> (9)
Man-O-War Demo Corps <full> (9)
Man-O-War Bombardiers <full> (11)
Man-O-War Kovnik (3)
- Berserker (6)
Mechaniks <min> (2)
- Mechanik Officer (2)

trololololol :D

[quindraco]

Simple:

eIrusk (+5)
- Behemoth (13)
Man-O-War Shocktroopers <full> (9)
Man-O-War Demo Corps <full> (9)
Man-O-War Bombardiers <full> (11)
Man-O-War Kovnik (3)
- Berserker (6)
Mechaniks <min> (2)
- Mechanik Officer (2)

trololololol :D

This is not enough MoW.

eIrusk (+5)
- Berserker(6)
- Sylys(2)
Man-O-War Shocktroopers <full> (9)
Man-O-War Demo Corps <full> (9)
Man-O-War Bombardiers <full> (11)
Man-O-War Kovnik (3)
-Berserker(6)
Man-O-War Drakhun (4)
Mechaniks <full> (3)
- Mechanik Officer (2)

[Darguth]

I like the cut of this man's jib. :D

[Col_Festus]

I think the black dragon IFP paired with a high def unit can help out and it's what I plan to test out. If you shield wall on mini feat turn arm 22 is pretty brutal on 12 models. I plan to try out pIrusk w/ full Black Dragons and full Kayazy. The only thing better than arm 22 is tough on a 4+ arm 22 sitting in inhospitable ground :D

[profparm]

eIrusk (+5)
- Berserker(6)
- Sylys(2)
Man-O-War Shocktroopers <full> (9)
Man-O-War Demo Corps <full> (9)
Man-O-War Bombardiers <full> (11)
Man-O-War Kovnik (3)
-Berserker(6)
Man-O-War Drakhun (4)
Mechaniks <full> (3)
- Mechanik Officer (2)

This is not enough MoW.

eIrusk (+5)
- Berserker(6)
Man-O-War Shocktroopers <full> (9)
Man-O-War Shocktroopers <min> (6)
Man-O-War Demo Corps <full> (9)
Man-O-War Demo Corps <full> (9)
Man-O-War Bombardiers <full> (11)
Man-O-War Kovnik (3)
Man-O-War Drakhun (4)

[Michael]

eIrusk (+5)
- Berserker(6)
Man-O-War Shocktroopers <full> (9)
Man-O-War Shocktroopers <min> (6)
Man-O-War Demo Corps <full> (9)
Man-O-War Demo Corps <full> (9)
Man-O-War Bombardiers <full> (11)
Man-O-War Kovnik (3)
Man-O-War Drakhun (4)

Still not enough MoW.

Mow Shocktroopers <full> 9
Mow Shocktroopers <full> 9
Mow Shocktroopers <full> 9
Mow Shocktroopers <full> 9
Mow Demo Corps <full> 9
Mow Demo Corps <full> 9
MoW Kovnik 3
MoW Kovnik 3
MoW Kovnik 3
MoW Kovnik 3
MoW Drakhun w/ Dismount 5


Sure, it's not a legal list, but I can field it! ;)
(I'm going to pick up the Bombardiers and Drakhun #2 soon...I really will.)

[Raktra]

You guys be nuts.

Anyway, I said I'd throw up my preliminary ideas today, so here we go. Note that I'm basing this purely off what I own, so obviously there's enormous room for change.

Harkevich
Demolisher/ Destroyer
Demolisher/ Destroyer
Ivan
Full Mechaniks w/ Officer
Max Shocktroopers
Min Demo Corps (or the Bears, before anyone hounds me)
Drakhun
Koldun Lord

Basic idea was 1- to start using Hark, and 2- go against the "Cygnar-esque" anti-Kazazy etc methods in a multi-list format (everyone knows I throw full Kayazy and Eliminators in pretty much every list now). There's no tactics above I'd disagree with, just tossing around my thoughts I had before I started the thread. Also I suck at insightful posts.

[scout's honor]

Basic idea was 1- to start using Hark, and 2- go against the "Cygnar-esque" anti-Kazazy etc methods in a multi-list format (everyone knows I throw full Kayazy and Eliminators in pretty much every list now).
That works for standard steamroller, but for formats where you have to use all of your lists it's still very important for me to have every list be able to deal with most of the lists I might run into. I'm not saying yours can't (although I remain unconvinced of the value of all ranged jacks lists with Harky), just bringing up my own perspective.

High DEF is still awesome. Not as gamebreakingly awesome as it used to be perhaps, but if we're managing to be objective about it that's not a bad thing. Aside from some really hard counters - damn you, Kreuger - people still more often than not have to go out of their way to be able to put up something halfway effective against DEF 18-20. As long as your opponent has to go out of his way, you're not in a position to complain. We should probably refrain from going with nothing but high DEF low ARM infantry like some of us used to do, but there's definitely no reason to abandon those altogether.

[Raktra]

I didn't know such formats existed now (though admittedly, I'm extremely green when it comes to "hardcore" tournaments...).

[Digilante]

Usually this the "Divide and Conquer" format requires you to round-robin your lists, but some tournaments do "use each list once" because D&C can get a bit awkward. I think both are dumb because they can force you into using lists for bad machups and as such each list needs to be suitable for all comers (limiting the use of "wildcard" tactics). That's not what is under discussion though.