Khador takes UK Masters (Again)

[ShockwaveIIC]

Jamie P wins the UK Masters again with Khador.

Final round opponent being Trolls and it goes to the third tie breaker so I hear.

[Tyr852]

Is there any place to find what the lists are composed of ? I'd be curious to see what he ran or for that matter what people run in general for different armies.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Knowing Jamie P (not personally) Old Witch is a given, the other two casters are probably from pIrusk, eSorscha and pVlad.

[Marth]

Maybe he'll be kind enough to post his lists here - he did that before too. But maybe he's saving it for the time when he has finished going all Chelsea on the tournament scene.

Say, Mr. JP, what happened to your decision to not take Khador to tournaments this year?

[ShockwaveIIC]

Say, Mr. JP, what happened to your decision to not take Khador to tournaments this year?I thought I heard him say he wasn't going to play Khador domestically as well. But being that no one else brought it up, I just left it.

[Marth]

Well, we for sure won't be mad at him...

...but the Motherland demands an explanation! ;)

[ScottEBJJ]

Oh, but I thought Khador was getting nerfed into useless? Is the sky not falling?

[Pickles]

Oh, but I thought Khador was getting nerfed into useless? Is the sky not falling?

Jamie is another OP player :)

I believe his lists did not change much from Templecon. The top 20 positions featured every faction except Retribution & Mercs with none dominant. Every faction is competitive* it's the players :) that make the difference.

(except Mercs ;))

[ScottEBJJ]

Jamie is another OP player :)

I believe his lists did not change much from Templecon. The top 20 positions featured every faction except Retribution & Mercs with none dominant. Every faction is competitive* it's the players :)

(except Mercs ;))

Jamie P is an amazing player for sure, but not so much better then his competition as to be able to play handicapped and win as much as he has. And I'm sure he'd agree with that statement.

Yet some of the prevailing wailing on this forum would be that his style of Khador is a relic of a begotten era, nerfed into the abyss by PP giving other factions WMDs.

I'd just like to thank Jamie for yet again proving such persons wrong.

[thrasymacus]

Here's a well done video battle report with Jamie P using a pretty standard eSorsha list vs Lord Stryker. It's a massive attrition fest and both sides know the tricks and don't hold back from using the dirty tricks. It's an extremely close game by high level players, but as Scott above points out, it's not like these guys are playing on a whole other level. Watch the Wardog being awesome!


part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SicoDndVdY0
part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqMz8NipKbw

[Pickles]

Andrew was Jamie's opponent in the final game to day as well as in this Battlereport. The match was streamed on Steamforged.com & I think it' up as a recording now.

Scott I believe I am agreeing with you

[Jamie P]

Hey guys :) (good to be back in the red!)

I abandonded the hordes because of one reason, Legion frustrate me greatly when I play any hordes faction that isn't Legion. This isnt to say it can not be done but I just hated feeling at a disadvantage from the off every time. With my trusty Khador at least I already have the depth of experience to try and bridge any gaps.

I used the exact same lists I ran at the Templecon Masters down to the last model. No reason to change anything until conquest comes out :)

Over 7 games I played them in this order:

pIrusk vs pKrueger
eSorscha vs eHexeris
Old Witch vs eDoomshaper
pIrusk vs eVaylke
pIrusk vs pKrueger
eSorscha vs Grim Angus
Old Witch vs Jarl

And sorry all but I will not be writing this event up as I simply do not have the time right now :( moving house very soon!

With regards to Khador 'nerf' yeah people know how to deal with Iron Flesh but this is nothing new. Its down to you to use what you have available to you to beat your opposition, Khador don't lack the tools to win and we have and will always lack 'tricks' thats just how it is, improvise! Key example here being my pIrusk list which literally loves playing pKrueger or anything else that just spams POW 10s at you for that matter.

[Jake the Dog]

Can someone tell me his TempleCon lists then?
@Jamie: Very interesting match ups, almost all of the Hordes.

[Jamie P]

There are links to my reports in my sig dude :)

[Jake the Dog]

There are links to my reports in my sig dude :)
Whoops, thanks sir.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Old witch & Scrapjack
Behemoth
Spriggan
10 kayazy Assassins & Underboss
10 Nyss hunters
Aiyana and Holt
Gorman De Wolfe
eEiryss
Reinholt
(reserve)
10 Ironfang Pikemen & UA

PIrusk
Spriggan
10 Ironfang Pikemen & UA
10 Blackfang Pikemen & UA
10 kayazy & Underboss
Great bears
Widowmakers
Harlan versh
Saxon orrik
pEiryss
(reserve)
3 Ironfang Uhlans
Yuri the Axe

eSorscha
Spriggan (bonded)
Black Ivan
10 winter guard UA, 3 rockets
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich
10 kayazy & Underboss
3 Ironfang Uhlans
Kovnik Markov
Sylys wyshnalyrr
(reserve)
10 Ironfang Pikemen & UA

The Black Dragon were borrowed (For 10 Characters)

[Ganso]

Congrats Jamie!

I'll be sure to study the games on steamforge very thoroughly

[ReaverQueen]

I'm not trying to say JP is bad or anything, or the UK meta is bad or anything, but he was against Trolls for the final game. Trolls! I thought they were universally mid-to-low range in tournaments.

[Tyr852]

Thanks Jaime for the posts , it's pretty cool that people at top levels of play frequent the forums.

[Pickles]

I'm not trying to say JP is bad or anything, or the UK meta is bad or anything, but he was against Trolls for the final game. Trolls! I thought they were universally mid-to-low range in tournaments.

Trolls are just as terrible as Khador is nowadays

[Natetehaggresar]

Trolls are just as terrible as Khador is nowadays


Yup, trolls are super weak sauce. *eyeroll*

[razcalking]

I'm not trying to say JP is bad or anything, or the UK meta is bad or anything, but he was against Trolls for the final game. Trolls! I thought they were universally mid-to-low range in tournaments.

Golly, if only we had something objective like UK Masters tournament results to see if they were actually low-range.

[Frege]

I'm not trying to say JP is bad or anything, or the UK meta is bad or anything, but he was against Trolls for the final game. Trolls! I thought they were universally mid-to-low range in tournaments.

To summarise the posts below yours...

It just goes to show you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.

[Caecus Scius]

I like JPs lists, he has a rock list in there, as a counter to help against people who can easily deal with the low arm of his other lists, and he ended up playing it 3 times out of 7. I'll have to read the battle reports and everything else to see what he faced and how he dealt with different issues.

I don't think the high def infantry spam is going to go away, I do however see that you will be forced to take at least 1 list that isn't all high def low arm.

[ReaverQueen]

Well I'm not saying Trolls are horrible, they just have a number of weaknesses, typically speaking:


Horrible warlock attachment
abundance of medium bases ( makes position, jamming, ganging harder )
expensive models ( both in pts and $$$ )

And of course pros like,

Tough
Good ARM
Good synergy
Awesome sculpts



That and they seem ( to me ) to get hit a little harder by character restrictions than some forces. Janissa, Skaldi, Mulg, some things like these seem to be the cornerstones of their super smash, support, or tricksy elements.





Overall, I haven't seen locally ( or domestically ) that Trolls are a "top of the charts" type faction, generally speaking. That's not that the faction is bad... just that it's a lot like Khador. It's tough but predictable. Not a lot of tricks - and tricks carry a certain strength due to Risk vs Reward. That's why tricky armies can usually do a LOT of crazy stuff when a really good player uses them - they have advantages that are appropriated for by losses in other areas, generally. ( Like Cryx's relatively miniscule ranged game and relatively low ARM )




I'm just surprised to see it come down to Trolls, is all. I'd have been ( not as much, but still ) surprised if the final game had been Khador vs Minions, for example. Or even Khador vs Cygnar. ( Pre Stormwall of course )

[Seventhprophet]

Nice! Well done Jamie! I love hearing about Khador doing well!

You need to start teaching lessons so some other names can get on on the awesome list. :)

[Octavius_Maximus]

Hey JamieP, your lists are interesting looking, I have to ask though. How do you make your opponents react to you with so few shooting in your lists?

Ive never been to a tournament, but i find that without a good portion of shooting in my lists, My opponent has plenty of time to manoeuvre around me. How do you get around this?

[thrasymacus]

I'd love to get a good look at how those double IFP units were positioned throughout the game. I've watched a bunch of top level games and I notice how big units are usually doing many things all at once, with part of the squad jamming, threatening with free strikes and some hanging back. It's not something that comes up on the forums but I think this clever positioning is more than half the game.

[ScottEBJJ]

Well I'm not saying Trolls are horrible, they just have a number of weaknesses, typically speaking:


Horrible warlock attachment
abundance of medium bases ( makes position, jamming, ganging harder )
expensive models ( both in pts and $$$ )

And of course pros like,

Tough
Good ARM
Good synergy
Awesome sculpts



That and they seem ( to me ) to get hit a little harder by character restrictions than some forces. Janissa, Skaldi, Mulg, some things like these seem to be the cornerstones of their super smash, support, or tricksy elements.





Overall, I haven't seen locally ( or domestically ) that Trolls are a "top of the charts" type faction, generally speaking. That's not that the faction is bad... just that it's a lot like Khador. It's tough but predictable. Not a lot of tricks - and tricks carry a certain strength due to Risk vs Reward. That's why tricky armies can usually do a LOT of crazy stuff when a really good player uses them - they have advantages that are appropriated for by losses in other areas, generally. ( Like Cryx's relatively miniscule ranged game and relatively low ARM )




I'm just surprised to see it come down to Trolls, is all. I'd have been ( not as much, but still ) surprised if the final game had been Khador vs Minions, for example. Or even Khador vs Cygnar. ( Pre Stormwall of course )

Except results do not at all support your preconceived notions. This is some numbers compiled from large tournaments compiled all over the world.

http://www.focusandfury.com/forum/index.php?topic=3569.300

Adding in the UK result Trolls have more Top 5 places then every Hordes faction but Circle. So your idea that Trolls are somehow not that competitive is completely unfounded. As with many things it seems that you do not have the experience, knowledge, or evidence to make the claims you are making. You are just pandering forum buzzwords not really backed by results.

[thrasymacus]

That may be true, but you're making a bigger deal out of cons then you should. Tournament rules plus time and list building restrictions are above and beyond Prime/Primal and they change constantly. It's interesting to look at cons but the game is played and should be balanced around what's actually in Prime. I really have no idea which faction is the best, I just don't think con standings give me the entire picture. A guy might win 90% of his games when he's got Kovnic Joe, but slip down to 50/50 when he can't field him for example.

[Natetehaggresar]

What?

Those con standings have been since steam roller 2012 hit, nearly all have been 2-3 list divide and conquers.

We're not saying any faction is weak. We're saying that trolls are NOT weak.

Reaverqueens statements are senseless.

Troll Caster UA would rock more with some khador casters than sylas. Its essentially 1 free focus a round, not just a free upkeep, and once per game free spell would be sweet.

Medium bases get in the way yah, they also prevent tramples, and make it harder for the enemy to draw los.

Model cost in terms of cash is irrelevant when you're talking about faction strength and tournament performance.

The only hit to trolls in character restrictions is Janissa. All their other important support is not restricted like the impaler, and the kriel stone + UA. Bombers are their best heavy and they are FA U. Mulg is far from auto include, and so is skaldi.

As for not alot of tricks, have you ever played against pGrissel? Or faced refuging sniped bombers that retreat to behind a mobile wall? Reading this thread just smacks me of people saying things with no basis for their claims, while being mopey and dismissive of other players accomplishments.

Anyway, Jamiep did good work, against good factions, and a good field.

[ScottEBJJ]

That may be true, but you're making a bigger deal out of cons then you should. Tournament rules plus time and list building restrictions are above and beyond Prime/Primal and they change constantly. It's interesting to look at cons but the game is played and should be balanced around what's actually in Prime. I really have no idea which faction is the best, I just don't think con standings give me the entire picture. A guy might win 90% of his games when he's got Kovnic Joe, but slip down to 50/50 when he can't field him for example.

What are you talking about? She's talking about Trolls abilities in regards to competitive play, aka tournaments. I'm showing data from tournaments under the current rule set that specifically show what she's saying is not grounded in fact.

We are talking about competitive play, I'm using data from competitive play, why should we not take data seriously that applies directly to our discussion? I do not get what your post has to do with this thread or discussion.

[scout's honor]

I'm not trying to say JP is bad or anything, or the UK meta is bad or anything, but he was against Trolls for the final game. Trolls! I thought they were universally mid-to-low range in tournaments.
Exactly what are you trying to say then? The UK Masters is a big tournament. You don't end high in the rankings unless you got skills and bring an effective list. I can assure you that if a player - regardless of faction - made it to the final table he's earned it and he's not just going to roll over. It's six games just to get to the finals - nobody lucks out through six games at an event like that.

Besides, Trollbloods are a big faction in the UK (and as far as I know, that can be extended to Europe in general). Of the 14 UK Masters players that made it to the second half of the competition, four play Trollbloods. That's the largest fraction tied with Legion, and one round later only one of the Legion players remained while three of the Trollbloods players had qualified for round 5. The more players you have for a faction, the better the chances the best player that day brings that faction. If you take out the outliers - players who win a disparately large number of big events, factions like Circle (Will Pagani) and Legion (Jake Van Meter) will suddenly seem a lot mess dominant as well. Lists (and by extention factions) don't win games - players do.

[mangustheix]

Regarding trolls, it seems to me that when you get to this sort of level of play, they really come into their own. You basically dont see assassinations at this level unless someone makes a monumental mistake (which is unlikely with these players). It is normally going to dice down and teriary conditions. This is where the trolls start to win through with all those annoying tough rolls. They may only make 1-2 of them, but if it stops a CP from been grabbed one round then that can win you the game.

Good to see Khador and Jamie winning again. I think everyone is aware of how to beat IF, and come prepared for it, but that does not stop Khador infantry been amazing. You have to work a bit harder, but at least it isn't the old auto win it used to be. That just got boring.

[ReaverQueen]

Exactly what are you trying to say then? The UK Masters is a big tournament. You don't end high in the rankings unless you got skills and bring an effective list. I can assure you that if a player - regardless of faction - made it to the final table he's earned it and he's not just going to roll over. It's six games just to get to the finals - nobody lucks out through six games at an event like that.

Besides, Trollbloods are a big faction in the UK (and as far as I know, that can be extended to Europe in general). Of the 14 UK Masters players that made it to the second half of the competition, four play Trollbloods. That's the largest fraction tied with Legion, and one round later only one of the Legion players remained while three of the Trollbloods players had qualified for round 5. The more players you have for a faction, the better the chances the best player that day brings that faction. If you take out the outliers - players who win a disparately large number of big events, factions like Circle (Will Pagani) and Legion (Jake Van Meter) will suddenly seem a lot mess dominant as well. Lists (and by extention factions) don't win games - players do.

This!

This is the kind of intelligent and informative response I can appreciate. I didn't know that Trolls were so well-liked over there!

And of course I subscribe to that same idea about the players. I suspect that the right player could win with almost any faction. Maybe not the super limited ones right now like Ret or Minions but the other ones, sure.

When I announced my surprise about Trolls, it was because well... I never seem to hear about them landing the Top 3 slots in tournaments over the last few years. And in my experience ( owning and playing Trolls occasionally, as well as going against local Troll players ) the faction tends to see some pretty decent counters. If anything the closest I'd get to "doubt" is wondering how well adapted the UK meta is to bricky high ARM lists, which is what I tend to see from Trolls and Khador, and what seems to be disparaged here in NA. I really didn't mean to try and insult either of those players by being surprised!

[Jamie P]

Hey JamieP, your lists are interesting looking, I have to ask though. How do you make your opponents react to you with so few shooting in your lists?

Ive never been to a tournament, but i find that without a good portion of shooting in my lists, My opponent has plenty of time to manoeuvre around me. How do you get around this?

Character restrictions prevent Khador from fielding multiple 'all shooting' lists anymore unless it consists of AOE spam. So the style of balanced/combined arms lists that I use are not out of choice.

My two combined arms lists are never trying to stay at range but are always closing with the opponent together so no element is ever isolated from the rest of the army. Its very hard to describe without an essay length response but in short each piece of the list is working to do its job so assassins engaging, clearing, advancing but always engaging. Ranged elements doing what they do best and both units screening my ever creeping warjacks waiting for a chance at a charge. However key tips when playing a more ranged heavy opponent is to select your targets for return fire carefully. What is hurting you back the most? What CAN you kill with your range elements? (so for example a great anti cygnar target for rocketeers and scattering bombards are Gunmages).

My pIrusk swarm is all about feat timing. On feat turn you mini feat both pike units and literally get as close to the other guy and the scenario as you can. He has to fight you and kill what he can or retreat and lose scenario points. And with armies like pKrueger they will really struggle to get you through ARM 18 shield walls, Iron Flesh AND the 4+/5+ Steady Feat. Then apply healthy amounts of battle lust and take the wardens out. Really not a skillful list in my eyes but it does a job for me against armies that would otherwise cause massive problems for standard Khadoran tactics.

[ReaverQueen]

What?

Those con standings have been since steam roller 2012 hit, nearly all have been 2-3 list divide and conquers.

We're not saying any faction is weak. We're saying that trolls are NOT weak.

Reaverqueens statements are senseless.

Troll Caster UA would rock more with some khador casters than sylas. Its essentially 1 free focus a round, not just a free upkeep, and once per game free spell would be sweet.

Medium bases get in the way yah, they also prevent tramples, and make it harder for the enemy to draw los.

Model cost in terms of cash is irrelevant when you're talking about faction strength and tournament performance.

The only hit to trolls in character restrictions is Janissa. All their other important support is not restricted like the impaler, and the kriel stone + UA. Bombers are their best heavy and they are FA U. Mulg is far from auto include, and so is skaldi.

As for not alot of tricks, have you ever played against pGrissel? Or faced refuging sniped bombers that retreat to behind a mobile wall? Reading this thread just smacks me of people saying things with no basis for their claims, while being mopey and dismissive of other players accomplishments.

Anyway, Jamiep did good work, against good factions, and a good field.

Listen, I get that the PP forums are unusually adversarial, but if you're going to be a d-bag we aren't going to have a conversation. :D That goes to Scott as well, since apparently MKI+ 3 factions+ isn't enough experience for him, or something.


I think the Troll warlock attachment sucks. That's personal opinion. I'm sure some people disagree, but comparing its uses in other factions is moot. At the very least I'm disturbed it doesn't have a weapon or an attack despite the fact that even the puny pygmies and the KSB grunts do. Not to mention both of its limited ( by warlock attachment standards ) abilities are *actions, which makes them susceptible to a variety of counterfeats or spells, where often other attachments get something like that as just a special rule. So I can hit that guy with pSorscha's feat and you essentially just don't get his abilities that turn, whereas with Sylas I think its automatic even if he's stationary. Etc etc.


Regarding the large monetary investment for Trolls, I actually have a theory about that. Feel free to contest it. The idea is, the more expensive something is, the rarer it is. Due to the sheer increased cost of Trollbloods armies, they should in theory be rarer - or less fully developed - or fully developed at costs elsewhere. If they become rarer or less fleshed out, then being able to practice against them and their variations becomes harder.

If I go to the local stores for example and say to myself hey, I want to practice my gameplay against Cryx, well it's going to be super easy to find Cryx opponents. I can probably even find that they own every warcaster, almost all the jacks, and a variety of units. Well... ok maybe just banes but still! Trolls by contrast might be harder to find due to their unit costs and such. Though clearly finding Troll players is not an issue in the UK!

[ScottEBJJ]

Listen, I get that the PP forums are unusually adversarial, but if you're going to be a d-bag we aren't going to have a conversation. :D That goes to Scott as well, since apparently MKI+ 3 factions+ isn't enough experience for him, or something.


I think the Troll warlock attachment sucks. That's personal opinion. I'm sure some people disagree, but comparing its uses in other factions is moot. At the very least I'm disturbed it doesn't have a weapon or an attack despite the fact that even the puny pygmies and the KSB grunts do. Not to mention both of its limited ( by warlock attachment standards ) abilities are *actions, which makes them susceptible to a variety of counterfeats or spells, where often other attachments get something like that as just a special rule. So I can hit that guy with pSorscha's feat and you essentially just don't get his abilities that turn, whereas with Sylas I think its automatic even if he's stationary. Etc etc.


Regarding the large monetary investment for Trolls, I actually have a theory about that. Feel free to contest it. The idea is, the more expensive something is, the rarer it is. Due to the sheer increased cost of Trollbloods armies, they should in theory be rarer - or less fully developed - or fully developed at costs elsewhere. If they become rarer or less fleshed out, then being able to practice against them and their variations becomes harder.

If I go to the local stores for example and say to myself hey, I want to practice my gameplay against Cryx, well it's going to be super easy to find Cryx opponents. I can probably even find that they own every warcaster, almost all the jacks, and a variety of units. Well... ok maybe just banes but still! Trolls by contrast might be harder to find due to their unit costs and such. Though clearly finding Troll players is not an issue in the UK!

I do not care how long you've been playing. Regardless of how long you've been playing you've just admitted that you have hard time getting games against Trolls. And yet you feel comfortable making statements about thier abilities in competetive play. Based solely on some loud for posters. In the face of actual statistics and contrary to any number of competetive players perspectives on the matter.

So again you do not have the experience in competetive play, knowledge about competetive play, or evidence from competetive play to make posts saying a faction is underpowered and implying a whole continent is some how playing in a lesser meta.

[ReaverQueen]

I didn't say lesser, I said different. I've... actually brought this up before. UK and NA have different metas in video games as well where they're using the exact same numbers internationally. What's decried over here in NA can often find popularity over there. It doesn't make it "lesser" just because it isn't the US.

Besides, when I say "do they not counter high ARM over there or what?" I'm sure they say "do they not counter counters over there or what?". There's absolutely nothing malicious about my surprise that Trollbloods are so popular in a meta that is obviously different from ours.


In any case, I can find a Troll player or two. The problem is not having as many of them as there are for other factions in my experience, which means less of a skill spread, playstyle spread, and bulk of tips and tricks being shared/invented by Trollbloods players locally. As far as location goes I'm about 1 hour away from PP HQ, so, I have no idea where that puts me in terms of player/faction spread, and as far as I know PP doesn't release the numbers on the amount of players in each faction across various events or their internal data.


And I asked in the other thread, but I'll ask here as well... do you have the data for Trollbloods success in years leading up to 2012 as well? I'd like to compare them if at all possible. I have another theory about popular cons/tournament play and faction presence there as well, where after awhile players grow bored of faction X, Y, Z and want to try something new. They can bring their same superior player skill to other factions and then get those factions to show up on the ranking boards, in theory, without it reflecting on the faction as a whole.


Like for example if Jamie P had decided to wing it and go with Minions or something, and then take UK Masters #1 spot with Minions, would that suddenly change the perception of Minions in competitive play? What if a bunch of players decided to switch like that all at once, in the middle or higher up brackets, and suddenly netted similar victories - would that be indicative of faction ADD or faction strength?

Etc.

[Enazel]

The fact you think the Runebearer sucks, gives me an indication of how you play. Runebearer is as close to auto include in most lists, who doesn't like reduce focus cost, or the option to swap a spell from one unit to another after using your warlock it allows a lot of flexiblity. In the UK trolls are popular. Says the guy with around 350 points of them :), cost should never be counted against an army, end of the day wargames are a luxury, so there is a cost involved.

Part your feelings about them being mid to low tier is probably base on the fact that they weren't great in mk1, and its taken a little time for people to gain the experience of palying them in mk2. They a strong faction with few weaknesses, and I think you start seeing more trolls players in the top ranks in the coming years.

[ReaverQueen]

I make no apologies for not including models without attacks. XD

I'm glad you guys are having fun with Trolls though. I always found their sculpts and fluff to be really awesome.

[Enazel]

not everything as to be axe to mouth. the flexibility a runebearer gives you for activation order is too good to ignore.

[ReaverQueen]

I can't get over Glyphs only being once per game though. Bugs me so bad. :P

[Jamie P]

For the record, a good trollblood player is an absolute nightmare to face. The final game with Andrew Galea (Jarl) was very tactical and by far and away THE hardest game of the weekend and one of the hardest games I have ever played in any tournament was my semi-final against Phil Manwarring (Grim Angus). Me and Phil both played out of our skins and it was a literally nail-biting finish that ended 3-2 on control points in Incursion.

[ReaverQueen]

Cool!

I can never get enough of Grim Angus. He seems really cool to me but the forums don't seem to be very interested in him.

[scout's honor]

Regarding the large monetary investment for Trolls, I actually have a theory about that. Feel free to contest it. The idea is, the more expensive something is, the rarer it is. Due to the sheer increased cost of Trollbloods armies, they should in theory be rarer - or less fully developed - or fully developed at costs elsewhere. If they become rarer or less fleshed out, then being able to practice against them and their variations becomes harder.

If I go to the local stores for example and say to myself hey, I want to practice my gameplay against Cryx, well it's going to be super easy to find Cryx opponents. I can probably even find that they own every warcaster, almost all the jacks, and a variety of units. Well... ok maybe just banes but still! Trolls by contrast might be harder to find due to their unit costs and such. Though clearly finding Troll players is not an issue in the UK!
This is not a cheap hobby. I'm sure golfers or scuba divers or whatever spend more on average on their chosen pastime, but most players I know spend enough on their faction(s) that an additional 5 or 10 percent in cost is not something that's going to stop them from playing the faction they want to play. Liking the models is much more important than whether they're a bit expensive for the amount of points they're worth, and if you like Trollblood models (like I do) all those medium bases are really a selling point, not a deterrent.

[Tyr852]

If you play competitively price isn't an issue from what I've found in most games , you play what you think has the best chance of winning. I'm pretty happy to see that most* factions in MW/H have a +/- 10% chance of coming out on top.
Granted at the local level maybe the aesthetics of trolls just don't appeal to players or more so other factions appeal more which might seem why they are less popular in your area , or as you said they are more expensive but at the top if your goal is to win you bring what you think will. Not to say top tier players are rolling in the cash but a top tier solid army can be put together for "relatively" cheap (especially compared to other CCG or TT games)

*sorry minions and mercs.

[scout's honor]

*sorry minions and mercs.
Honestly, the only reason I see why mercs haven't had more results since Mk II is that most merc players I know don't play mercs as a faction. They play one or two contracts and that's it. Which is fine, people should play what they want to play. But if you're open to using all the possibilities there are in mercs, they're as competitive as the next faction.

[scout's honor]

*sorry minions and mercs.
Honestly, the only reason I see why mercs haven't had more results since Mk II is that most merc players I know don't play mercs as a faction. They play one or two contracts and that's it. Which is fine, people should play what they want to play. But if you're open to using all the possibilities there are in mercs, they're as competitive as the next faction even in formats that require 3 or 4 lists, character restricted. In this case the cost in money and time may be a legitimate factor though - if you're bringing one Highborn, one Four Star, one Searforge and one Talion 50-point list to an event, that's an enormous amount of models to collect, paint, and learn to play effectively.

[Tyr852]

I just look at mercs as why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free , I'm sure they are a solid enough faction but when you can pull most of their good stuff out to use with your good stuff then it doesn't make a lot of sense to run them exclusively.

I agree though that would be many models to bring to a tourney.

[ReaverQueen]

Of course!

People who proxy can afford pretty much anything, because they buy selectively. When I refer to price I mean for newer Troll players, who bolster the Troll community and in theory eventually become really good, or at least better, Troll players. I think someone did the math on it and found out that Kriel Warriors are the most expensive fully decked out unit in the game, or something like that. It was 100$+ iirc.


So how I think of it is imagine you have a new guy come up to the wall of starters and faction units, and he wants to get into the game. There's going to be a variety of factors that determine which army the person buys into, and I think $$$ is part of it. So at that fork in the road I think the added cost of Trollbloods armies probably turns some people to cheaper alternatives, and then they pursue that faction on into the future and flesh it out, and it becomes their main as they approach the competitive scene because of things like familiarity.

That's my theory anyway. Maybe I'm just cheap. :)

[Tyr852]

It's a good point and certainly a factor for some people no doubt. I just look at other TT games in that their winners circle also always seem to be at least 60+% of the newest released faction updated , makes me thing they dropped a bundle to be there as their was no way that many people played them before the update.

I'm in the boat of cheap as well , some day Ironfang Pikemen will be mine but I can't justifty 120+$ CND on a full unit with UA and BDUA when I can get .. so many other things >.>

[scout's honor]

I think someone did the math on it and found out that Kriel Warriors are the most expensive fully decked out unit in the game, or something like that. It was 100$+ iirc.
A bit more than that even, but it's not like you have to use them as a Trollbloods player. And while they're arguably the least Hordesy Hordes faction, they're still in Hordes. Low model count beast heavy lists are definitely viable.

[profparm]

[B]ringing one Highborn, one Four Star, one Searforge and one Talion 50-point list to an event....

The fact that you can diversify that much surprises me that we don't hear more about Mercs being really solid. I've heard good things about the Damiano Steelhead list, and it seems like from there you could diversify and have 3 different lists that aren't JUST 3 different common in-faction styles (or 2 common styles and 1 dark horse), but 3 completely unique styles that don't even play a single model the same between any of the lists (which seems very rare). But I'm still too new myself to try something this costly (in terms of money, time making, and time learning).

[ReaverQueen]

The biggest thing with Mercs I think it that they're all so different that the contracts are like sub-factions. So people might get into mercs because they like pirates, but then have no interest in Steelheads or Dwarfs, so then they're kind of gimped.


Like with Khador the aesthetic and tone of the faction largely stays the same. You can build armies that play differently, but still stick with the stuff you like. Not so much with Mercs totally.


The issue is even more pronounced, to the point of detriment I think, with Minions. Because there's such a sharp divide between Thornfall and Blindwater it makes it even harder. Not only are people generally inclined towards one or the other, pretty much nothing between the two actively works together as a cohesive model collection - let alone armies. You really need a TON of cash and painting time ( and really broad interests ) if you want to take enough Minions to really get some wins in the increasingly large SR/tournament scene.



It should get better though as both pacts get more warlocks.

[Khador247]

Congrats to Jamie P by winning yet another major convention with our beloved Khador. You do the faction proud sir. We need to have a big pay per view event with you vs. Jake V. I think it is pretty apparent that you two guys are the top two players in the world at this time. The results speak for themselves.

ps...pretty wild that all of your games were against Hordes factions!

[DontStop]

Cool!

I can never get enough of Grim Angus. He seems really cool to me but the forums don't seem to be very interested in him.

He is one of those casters that has been good for so long, that is isn't that talked about anymore. Everyone knows he is legit and the lists probably haven't changed much for him.

Or something like that.......

Thanks,

DS

[Jamie P]

We need to have a big pay per view event with you vs. Jake V.


Hopefully we shall have that game at Warmachine Weekend :) if not I would certainly love to play an exhibition match before I fly home. Thats the hope anyway.

[Aeyrulon]

Congratulations Jamie !

Shame we wont get another of yours great battle reports i spent so much time reading over and over .-/
Also would love to know deeper toughts behind moving away from hordes.

[MrChom]

Having watched the game start to finish over the webcam it was an absolute nail-biter and a real shame that SoS put Andrew Galea down as far as it did. Back and forth, lots of models being taken off....great stuff. At the end of the day, however, if you go to tertiary and the Spriggan/Behemoth Combo is in the zone you're a LONG way to getting the game.

Now next year someone needs to get Steamforged over to Templecon so they can cover the US side of things....

[scout's honor]

The fact that you can diversify that much surprises me that we don't hear more about Mercs being really solid. I've heard good things about the Damiano Steelhead list, and it seems like from there you could diversify and have 3 different lists that aren't JUST 3 different common in-faction styles (or 2 common styles and 1 dark horse), but 3 completely unique styles that don't even play a single model the same between any of the lists (which seems very rare). But I'm still too new myself to try something this costly (in terms of money, time making, and time learning).
Mercs are more than solid in standard SR already. If I'd get to choose between going up against say, eHaley or a tricked-out Legion or Circle list or against A Pirate's Life T4, I'd be dodging those puffy pants all day long. But a 50-point Shae list is a lot of models already, and if you need to bring two or three more 50-pointers without overlap... To be honest I've done something similar last time I played in a 3-list format, no overlap whatsoever between any of my lists (not even Kayazy or a war dog), but that's a choice I made. It's still not necessary to do so with Mercs either, but there's much more incentive for them.

[tehhelios]

Well done!
Its a shame the sound on the event is so loud it was hard to watch, but it was a good initiative!.
Im hoping they edit and remove the noise and put them up on RHQ or something.

[Jamie P]

Well done!
Its a shame the sound on the event is so loud it was hard to watch, but it was a good initiative!.
Im hoping they edit and remove the noise and put them up on RHQ or something.

Watch this space :)