Molik Karn, the "elephant" in the room.

[Creaux]

So, every MK. II game I've won has been due to Molik Karn personally smashing the opposing 'caster in half. I've basically run him up with Fate Ward to get in a threatening position, and use the rest of my army to occupy the rest of the enemy's. Karn then works his way to the enemy 'caster, and finishes the deal.

Games I haven't won in MK. II all include one feature: I didn't take Molik Karn.

While he is a beautiful chunk of power, I hope I'm not the only one who will get bored with this in about one more game.

So, what might be some decent ways to balance him?

I think changing Fate Ward to read that models cannot be forced or spend focus or fury to boost would be very fair. That prevents Karn from ignoring charges and free strikes, and gives most lists some chance at actually putting him down.

[cunningweasel]

I haven't run him yet myself but that sounds a very fair idea.

[kantoboy]

I doubt it has anything to do with MK other than we have no other choices. MK is pretty solid.

[lord tyrant watt]

So, every MK. II game I've won has been due to Molik Karn personally smashing the opposing 'caster in half. I've basically run him up with Fate Ward to get in a threatening position, and use the rest of my army to occupy the rest of the enemy's. Karn then works his way to the enemy 'caster, and finishes the deal.

Games I haven't won in MK. II all include one feature: I didn't take Molik Karn.

While he is a beautiful chunk of power, I hope I'm not the only one who will get bored with this in about one more game.

So, what might be some decent ways to balance him?

I think changing Fate Ward to read that models cannot be forced or spend focus or fury to boost would be very fair. That prevents Karn from ignoring charges and free strikes, and gives most lists some chance at actually putting him down.

This actually isnt a bad idea, if we were to get the Kreas animus back.

A counter balance.

Skorne needs a offensive animus to slow the incoming army. I think a simple solution to the Krea is keeping her animus the same as it is now, but putting "Saeryns breath stealer spell" on her as a ranged attack and keeping her RAT the same. This way she has to choose between animus and ranged or not be a transfer target.

Just my thoughts.

[goreshde]

The only reason MK looks so good, is that the rest of the beasts look so bad. Every game I have played with MK he has ended up dead, even with fate ward every turn. Granted it has always been against WM, but he is not unkillable.

[strangedane]

I think MK is fine, he's good, very good, but you pay for it, and as said above, not unkillable.

I think the sad thing is he's only 1 more pt than our alpha, who suck..

[Sinsation]

I agree with the "models cannot spend focus or be forced to boost attack/damage rolls against molik karn."
It does tone it back a fair bit, because now models that are given boosted rolls by something else (charging, karchev's unearthly rage, rabid, frenzy, etc.) are all viable. I'd say do this, drop him a point to compensate, you'd see a lot less complaining about the model and it'd be still quite useful probably.

[Khador247]

I think the sad thing is he's only 1 more pt than our alpha, who suck..
I tend to agree with this unfortunately. I hope that the Bronzeback gets some love before the rules become official. I haven't tried Karn in MKII yet.

[Yertle4]

The only reason MK looks so good, is that the rest of the beasts look so bad.

Agreed, at least for heavy beasts.

You just don't get the feeling that other heavy beasts are really viable like you do with Warmachine.

But that's what the field test is for. Goreshde, I nominate you to be Skorne's Darknesse, minus the abuse. Your role will be to post thought-out reasons why we suck, so that the rest of us can say you are wrong. It worked for FT Cryx didn't it?

[apollosun]

Honestly, I don't know if your opponents were playing against Karn well because I never thought Fate Ward was all that with only a 13 def and 18 armor. It helps, definitely helps, but he drops fairly easily against most heavies with multiple attacks. Even with Fate Ward up there are many models that are straight dice against him on damage.

All-in-all I do think his specialty is chasing down the opponents caster, and his fury efficiency with 2 POW 15s and high MAT make him good at this. But taking Guided Strike away seemed like the great equalizer from MK1 and while I was annoyed at that, I think they balanced him out. He now isn't a major factor against high-armor opponents. Previously I'd tear a Centurion up in one turn, no longer. Any opponent that exposes their caster to an advance from Karn simply asked for it.

[McCryx]

I've played with MK in MKII abot a dozen times now. He's fine. He's no deathjack who is a hefty 12 points.

He's very kill able and I'm sorry that you've won with him, but I win with the deathjack all the time. Does that mean he needs to get screwed? No, it means that my oppo's need to adjust their strategy.

If they adjust fate ward he will need to be 10 points. With out it he's not that terrifying. So go ahead and think of ways to "fix" your center piece. OR, you can accept that the playtesters maybe got this one right.

Up to you, but I'm amazed at how the Skorne community seems to be hellbent on nerfing itself. Especially when no one is crying "foul" from other factions.

-Cheers-

[Cronix]

Fate ward is ok but still powerful.... I don't mind if they change it into +2 DEF/ARM model cannot be charged or slammed. <---- This would open new doors, opponent can nuke it with boosted attack and damage rolls.

Molik Karn
Skorne Cyclops Character Heavy Warbeast

SPD 6 STR 11 MAT 8 RAT 3 DEF 13 ARM 18 CMD 8 FUR 4 THR 10

FA: C
Point Cost: 11
Base Size: Large
Damage: 28 (Mind 9, Body 10, Spirit 9)

Fate Walker - Cost: 2 RNG: Self AOE: ? POW: ? UP: No OFF: No
After all friendly models end their activations this turn, the model that used Fate Walker can make a full advance.

Molik Karn

Affinity [Makeda] - While in Makeda?ss control area, Molik Karn gains +1 FURY.
Chieftain [Cyclops] - While in this modelʼs command range, friendly Cyclops models can use its current CMD and THR in place of their own current values.

Fate Ward - During this model?s activation, it can be forced to use Fate Ward. For one round, this model gains +2 DEF/+2 ARM and cannot be charged by a model beginning the charge in this model?s front arc.

Weapons ? Molik Karn
Falchion [2x] (Left and Right) POW: 5 P+S: 16
Reach
Chain Attack: Combo Strike - Make a melee attack. Instead of making a normal damage roll, the POW of the damage roll is equal to this model?s STR plus twice the POW of this weapon.

[parksd70]

Sorry Cronix, I don't like it. It just takes away from the flavor of Mr. Karn. Like some have said, he's actually quite killable. I've had him killed in one turn a few times (okay, maybe one of these was due to my forgetting of Fate Ward) and other times he's been picked apart. I've even seen him simply held up by weak fodder and shut down by spell (DENNY!!!)

Aside from that, he lost one of his best ways to inflict massive damage. He's still quite good, but to get me on board they'd have to seriously tweak the rest of our melee heavies (can you say Rhinodon?)

[Soulblighter]

Molik Karn definitely needs to change. Hes fine at 13/18. Its when the animi and upkeep spells stack on him that he becomes completely absurd. What do you do when hes 15/20 and cant be knocked down?

[Sevwall]

You win. That's what you do.

[parksd70]

Agreed. Molik "For the Win" Karn.

[CaladanCid]

I don't know if MK is overpowered since he quite expensive. I'm also not sure how the fact that he can receive a buff makes him suddenly ridiculous. Plenty of options exist to remove buffs or make the casting/upkeep of said buff more expensive. He is good, but he looks even better compared to lackluster options.

Sevwall I am not sure why you are always complaining about Skorne. I am thinking about starting Trollbloods in MkII because of how they look so far in the field test. You complain an awful lot, maybe you could start offering constructive criticism or just trying to get buffs all around rather than bringing others down.

[Kommissar Golovko]

After reading the thread, I'd have to say that Fate Ward should actually stay. Molik is a character beast and it makes him survivable but not necessarily a monster in melee. One needs spells and animi for that but then again other factions beasts also benefit from the same things.

The feral wolves are nasty by themselves and putting the spells and animi in the Circle faction can make them literally monsters in combat. Mat 9 with Kaya? That's just brutal.

[haunter1029]

Molik is just fine. Other character beasts and Jacks are just as deadly and that is what he should be compared to.

[Helion]

Up to you, but I'm amazed at how the Skorne community seems to be hellbent on nerfing itself. Especially when no one is crying "foul" from other factions.

-Cheers-

Of course we're hell bent on nerfing ourselves. Have you seen the Pain givers? Sado Masochism is one of our founding tenants. ;)

[lord tyrant watt]

Agreed. Molik "For the Win" Karn.


I read this and laughed my *ss off.

This is an excellent knick name for Karn

Molik "FOR THE WIN" Karn

Good, very good!

IMO fate ward should stay the same. Hes a character beast and he lost Guide Strike and Hyper Senses. Im glad he lost Guide Strike and not Fate Ward. I cant count how many casters and locks i killed due to that ability.

Hes good where hes at.

[Toturi]

Of course we're hell bent on nerfing ourselves. Have you seen the Pain givers? Sado Masochism is one of our founding tenants. ;)
Mr Masochism doesn't have a room where I come from.

MK came that close to being killed by Trolls and was killed by Circle, despite having Defender's Ward and being Medicated and healed by Makeda.

What I do think is that our heavies do need some form of improvement.

[Sevwall]

Sevwall I am not sure why you are always complaining about Skorne. I am thinking about starting Trollbloods in MkII because of how they look so far in the field test. You complain an awful lot, maybe you could start offering constructive criticism or just trying to get buffs all around rather than bringing others down.

Hmmmm. I think that eMakeda is probably a bit much at DEF 15 ARM 19 in melee, I think that the Master Tormentor should be 3 points, and I think that a model that starts at DEF 13 ARM 18 without the possibility of boosting against is an issue that needs to be seriously looked at.

I'm not sure what to do about it. It may be something as simple as letting charges still damage him, or maybe no boosted damage rolls but still boosted attack rolls (or visa versa) or maybe just 1 less ARM.

This could be balanced by upping the POW on his weapons by 1, so that with a Paingiver Buff he could wreck Khadoran heavies in a single turn.

I don't think I'm unreasonable, and I usually try to qualify that I aman out-of-factioner and as such may be just plain wrong.

In general, I think the Molik Karn issue is so poignant because your other heavies are apparently disliked. I understand (though I wonder at the sentiment when Paingivers make it so that you can pretty easily force them to thier limits or grant them +2 SPD and STR) and if warranted I don't mind buffs there.

Out of faction people tend not to talk about buffing other factions. I don't really notice what fails to hurt me. I do notice the things that I cannot stop, even when I devote my whole army to the task. When it becomes apparent that only army composition can stop something, I consider it a problem.

[Zenassassin]

He's about where he should be. I would not be shocked if he got bumped up to 12 points but overall, he is overrated. He is still a ton of points in one basket that can be pretty easily subverted.

Look at the character warjacks. He is exactly as powerful as those, I would expect him to end up costing the same points.

[Keegantir]

He is the only heavy that I want to take currently. If he gets toned down, all I will be taking is lights and infantry. If the other heavies do not get buffed all I will be taking is lights, infantry, and Karn.

[Sevwall]

Are your heavies really all that bad?

The bronzeback, right now, does about 34 damage to a Khadoran heavy (scrapping it), and scraps most DEF 12 heavies.

Buffed with a Paingiver, he easily trashes a Khadoran heavy and most other heavies. He only really has trouble with Warpwolves and the like, and even then only if he rolls poorly on boosted rolls.

Against troops he suffers a bit, like most heavies do, but he has high ARM and the boxes to absorb it, so he deals about as well as other people.

So whats the general problem with him? Or the Gladiator for that matter, who excels at killing big things at the cost of having to boost vs little guys, all for a cheap (for a heavy warbeast, especially a DEF 12 ARM 19 one) 8 points.

I'm not saying there isn't one, I'm just asking what it is. Maybe by asking this question I'm proving my ignorance so that you can all feel free to ignore my comments as the ravings of a loony.

[CaladanCid]

Hmmmm. I think that eMakeda is probably a bit much at DEF 15 ARM 19 in melee, I think that the Master Tormentor should be 3 points, and I think that a model that starts at DEF 13 ARM 18 without the possibility of boosting against is an issue that needs to be seriously looked at.

I'm not sure what to do about it. It may be something as simple as letting charges still damage him, or maybe no boosted damage rolls but still boosted attack rolls (or visa versa) or maybe just 1 less ARM.

This could be balanced by upping the POW on his weapons by 1, so that with a Paingiver Buff he could wreck Khadoran heavies in a single turn.

I don't think I'm unreasonable, and I usually try to qualify that I aman out-of-factioner and as such may be just plain wrong.

In general, I think the Molik Karn issue is so poignant because your other heavies are apparently disliked. I understand (though I wonder at the sentiment when Paingivers make it so that you can pretty easily force them to thier limits or grant them +2 SPD and STR) and if warranted I don't mind buffs there.

Out of faction people tend not to talk about buffing other factions. I don't really notice what fails to hurt me. I do notice the things that I cannot stop, even when I devote my whole army to the task. When it becomes apparent that only army composition can stop something, I consider it a problem.

See now this is actually some good stuff. We obviously don't agree in general that MK needs work, but I do want to ask what the problem is with having to ID certain parts of the opposing army as first priorities. It seems to me in every game I pick parts to get rid of first and apply as much pressure as possible on those sections. I certainly wouldn't send my army piecemeal after a buffed DTM or a full unit of Longriders.

[Defenstrator]

Molik Karn looks pretty mean, but he's also 11 points. Basicly he's just confirming for me how badly the Carnivean needs a MAT/RAT buff. I can live with him as is, although who knows how I'll feel after I face him a few more times. I haven't faced him with Armour of Karak yet and that combo looks pretty freaking sick. :)

The other Skorne beasts don't seem sooo bad though. They do seem to suffer from MKI Menoth syndrome in that it seems assumed that they will always be getting the +2 STR buff from Paingivers. Aside from that, what issues are you having?

[Sevwall]

See now this is actually some good stuff. We obviously don't agree in general that MK needs work, but I do want to ask what the problem is with having to ID certain parts of the opposing army as first priorities. It seems to me in every game I pick parts to get rid of first and apply as much pressure as possible on those sections. I certainly wouldn't send my army piecemeal after a buffed DTM or a full unit of Longriders.

Right. The problem is that I find that there is very little to do that can stop Karn, because it is so hard to focus on him. He has extremely good threat for a heavy, and if I finally manage to outcharge him, I am getting no boosts, and probably doing little enough damage. Then comes the pain. Oh, the pain.

I'm trying to stay away from buffs in this conversation, but lets just go with the basic Defender's Ward. Makeda's a good caster, right? You might see her?

Well, with just that, he is DEF 15 ARM 20. Those are both really, really high. DEF 15 along is so high that a MAT 8 model will still miss just over 40
% of the time, and MAT 8 is exceedingly rare. So most models will miss 3 in 5 attacks, or even more.

Okay, they finally hit. Time to really pile on the damage, because it might be the only shot they get. Well, they can't boost. So he takes maybe, if its a heavy, 3 or 4 damage, maybe once or twice.

And then he generally beast the holy hell out of the opponent with a combo strike and 3 extra attacks, followed up by fate ward. You still cannot get to him except by being extremely lucky.

You can't cast spells, because he has a 14" running engage and should be in melee. You can't easily KD, because you can't boost. Hell, if you've done the smart thing, he has Safeguard and cannot be KDed. To stop that you have to kill the Brute, who is perfectly fair but is designed to be hard to kill.

So you end up doing a whole lot of nothing, all while Molik Karn slowly grinds to the caster, and whups on you, because with MAT 7 and Future Sight his 4 fury goes a long way against higher DEF models than it normally would. Even better, freestrikes do very little because Fate Ward makes the damage 2d6. So with just a little thinning out he will usually be able to get to you as you desperately try to kill him.

The worst part is that he used to be counterable by units. Now, they too will struggle to do any damage.

So all in all I find him a huge, huge bore. And if I were a Skorne player, I would take him every game until the cows came home. Because he isn't just good, or survivable. He is the pinnacle of being hard to kill, outside of the Covenant of Menoth. And he has no decent counter outside of a few cornercase models (Typhon with eThags or Vayl, highly buffed Champs).

I think he is moreso an autoinclude than most things because you guys seem to think the rest of your heavies are not as good because you are comparing them to Karn. Personally, I think your heavies are pretty alright, as they are generally big slow monsters with almost Khadoran like toughness and killiness plus some decent defense. Though I am with you on the Rhinodon needing to eat his Wheaties or something (His animus is possibly even worse than Mulgs, which makes me gag a little).

I do think that you suffer a bit from having access to the Paingivers, and I understand that (stupid Krielstone). But I think if you run the numbers you find that your heavies kill most other jacks or beasts without a single buff. It is only when the enemies get buffs that you need to start applying your own buffs to counter them.

[dboeren]

Molik Karn looks pretty mean, but he's also 11 points. Basicly he's just confirming for me how badly the Carnivean needs a MAT/RAT buff. I can live with him as is, although who knows how I'll feel after I face him a few more times. :)

The other Skorne beasts don't seem sooo bad though. They do seem to suffer from MKI Menoth syndrome in that it seems assumed that they will always be getting the +2 STR buff from Paingivers. Aside from that, what issues are you having?

I haven't played with Karn yet, but 11 points is a pretty stiff price. I'm surprised you don't care for the Carnivean though, most posts I've seen people are scared to death of the thing.

I think the Rhinodon is fine as is, and probably so is the Cannoneer. The Gladiator I'm not sure, I think he may be more of a 7.5 point beast (a victim of the compressed point scale) - he might need a tiny tweak or price drop but it's not too big a deal. The Bronzeback though seems overpriced. He's barely any better than the Gladiator and his Alpha buff for them is pretty lame now. I love the model, I loved the MkI Bronzeback, but the way he is now I doubt I'll be taking him much anymore other than for themed lists. It's just not worth an extra 2 points to get +1 MAT and Fury, and Berzerk is really not that valuable on a SPD 4 heavy without Reach. I need him smashing big things and he can buy enough attacks already to kill as many troopers as he can touch without needing a "free" extra attack.

[Sevwall]

Edited out. Faulty math. The Bronzeback does not kill Khadoran heavies on average unbuffed. He deals 23 damage, which is 3 and a half columns. He requires the Paingivers to scrap it, in which case he does 37 damage and scraps it with 3 boxes to spare.

[lord tyrant watt]

Right. The problem is that I find that there is very little to do that can stop Karn, because it is so hard to focus on him. He has extremely good threat for a heavy, and if I finally manage to outcharge him, I am getting no boosts, and probably doing little enough damage. Then comes the pain. Oh, the pain.

I'm trying to stay away from buffs in this conversation, but lets just go with the basic Defender's Ward. Makeda's a good caster, right? You might see her?

Well, with just that, he is DEF 15 ARM 20. Those are both really, really high. DEF 15 along is so high that a MAT 8 model will still miss just over 40
% of the time, and MAT 8 is exceedingly rare. So most models will miss 3 in 5 attacks, or even more.

Okay, they finally hit. Time to really pile on the damage, because it might be the only shot they get. Well, they can't boost. So he takes maybe, if its a heavy, 3 or 4 damage, maybe once or twice.

And then he generally beast the holy hell out of the opponent with a combo strike and 3 extra attacks, followed up by fate ward. You still cannot get to him except by being extremely lucky.

You can't cast spells, because he has a 14" running engage and should be in melee. You can't easily KD, because you can't boost. Hell, if you've done the smart thing, he has Safeguard and cannot be KDed. To stop that you have to kill the Brute, who is perfectly fair but is designed to be hard to kill.

So you end up doing a whole lot of nothing, all while Molik Karn slowly grinds to the caster, and whups on you, because with MAT 7 and Future Sight his 4 fury goes a long way against higher DEF models than it normally would. Even better, freestrikes do very little because Fate Ward makes the damage 2d6. So with just a little thinning out he will usually be able to get to you as you desperately try to kill him.

The worst part is that he used to be counterable by units. Now, they too will struggle to do any damage.

So all in all I find him a huge, huge bore. And if I were a Skorne player, I would take him every game until the cows came home. Because he isn't just good, or survivable. He is the pinnacle of being hard to kill, outside of the Covenant of Menoth. And he has no decent counter outside of a few cornercase models (Typhon with eThags or Vayl, highly buffed Champs).

I think he is moreso an autoinclude than most things because you guys seem to think the rest of your heavies are not as good because you are comparing them to Karn. Personally, I think your heavies are pretty alright, as they are generally big slow monsters with almost Khadoran like toughness and killiness plus some decent defense. Though I am with you on the Rhinodon needing to eat his Wheaties or something (His animus is possibly even worse than Mulgs, which makes me gag a little).

I do think that you suffer a bit from having access to the Paingivers, and I understand that (stupid Krielstone). But I think if you run the numbers you find that your heavies kill most other jacks or beasts without a single buff. It is only when the enemies get buffs that you need to start applying your own buffs to counter them.

Saying that Molik is nigh unkillable is kind of unfair.

I consider myself to be a pretty good player and Molik dies quite often.
This actually happened in my last 2 games where i thought molik would be safe with Fate Ward.

Irusk puts Superiority on a Spriggan a gives it 3 focus. Spriggan charges, thats Mat 10 pow 18, straight dice, then reliably hits at Mat 8 with the shield at pow 16 and beats on Karn with the other 3 focus. That was a dead Karn.

Do i even need to talk about Beast 09 and Murderous. Karn dead again.

So its an even trade. Yes hes hard to kill with certain things, but easily killed with others.

Here are some examples:

[dboeren]

Edited out. Faulty math. The Bronzeback does not kill Khadoran heavies on average unbuffed. He deals 23 damage, which is 3 and a half columns. He requires the Paingivers to scrap it, in which case he does 37 damage and scraps it with 3 boxes to spare.

He's certainly capable of killing a heavy. But so is just about any other Skorne heavy when they're buffed up.

Thing is, the Bronzeback no longer has any POW advantage over the basic Gladiator and he costs 2 more points for what I see as very minimal gains. The MAT 6 and +1 Fury is nice, I won't deny that, but I don't want to pay 2 points for them and he has the drawback of -1 DEF and Berzerk may be more of a detriment than a help.

btw - In MkI a Bronzeback with Abuse and Enrage disabled TWO Khador heavies in one activation for me on more than one occasion. Now of course that was back when jacks were easier to disable and all but it was still impressive.

[Sevwall]

Yeah, I put in that math so that when I said that a Bronzeback would scrap a heavy, I was full of it.

I think the Bronzeback probably needs P+S 17 fists. Then he starts scrapping heavies, and it puts him more in line with whan an Earthborn is capable of.

[Sevwall]

Saying that Molik is nigh unkillable is kind of unfair.

I consider myself to be a pretty good player and Molik dies quite often.
This actually happened in my last 2 games where i thought molik would be safe with Fate Ward.

Irusk puts Superiority on a Spriggan a gives it 3 focus. Spriggan charges, thats Mat 10 pow 18, straight dice, then reliably hits at Mat 8 with the shield at pow 16 and beats on Karn with the other 3 focus. That was a dead Karn.

Do i even need to talk about Beast 09 and Murderous. Karn dead again.

So its an even trade. Yes hes hard to kill with certain things, but easily killed with others.

Here are some examples:

Your examples got cut off. And I am in no way saying that he is impossible to kill.

However, you had no buffs on Karn. Thats where it starts getting bad. If you take Karn unbuffed against buffed things, its not going to go as well for you.

My main point is that when buffed, which is admittedly possible for 4 of your casters (Defenders Ward, Armor of Karrak, Mordikaar Feat and Admonition) he becomes quite hard, even impossible for many lists to deal with. He could be tweaked so that most lists had the possibility of killing him were he to expose himself to the entire army, while still retaining his survivability and perhaps even gaining in other areas, like offense.

We are also doing alot of vacuum talk here. There is a whole army surrounding Karn, and I don't like to get into it because it degenerates into a whole ton of theory machine, but we must accept that it is possible that the entire enemy army simply cannot have access to Karn at the same time, or that key pieces may be tied up by other elements of the army, or that Karn may be just one ofmany possible threats capable of ending the game.

All of these possibilities add to his survivability. In the end, you get to a place where unless you have the right pieces in the right places, you simply cannot kill, possible cannot even hurt Karn.

And thus my main issue. But I will stop harping on it.

[dboeren]

I think the Bronzeback probably needs P+S 17 fists. Then he starts scrapping heavies, and it puts him more in line with whan an Earthborn is capable of.

+1 STR and a more useful power to grant to other Titans I think is all he needs to fix him up. I don't know what sort of leadership power he ought to have though. At a minimum, maybe if Stampede let you Slam *or* Charge with Pathfinder instead of only Slamming?

[Sevwall]

Well, why does he need a leadership ability. Wouldn't he be good enough as is if he could box most anything in the game, unbuffed, in a single round of combat?

Do you just want a better leadership ability?

[dboeren]

Bottom line is that I don't think he's worth 2 extra points right now for:
+1 MAT
+1 Fury
+1 Health
-1 DEF
Berzerk (which is of limited value and sometimes a detriment)
Stampede (also I think of limited value)
different animus, great in the right situation but more situational than Subdue


I'd just like him to be worth considering over the cheaper Gladiator. As part of that I think it makes sense for him to hit a little harder, +1 POW. Whatever else happens to him is fine with me as long as his cost is is line with his abilities package.

Maybe I'm wrong and he's worth more than I think, but when I look at the list of differences it doesn't look like 2 points worth of stuff to me. If you could apply that same list of "upgrades" to a Dire Troll or whatever other melee heavy you might want to consider, would you be willing to pay 2 points for it? (assume that Berzerk didn't work with Snacking for a fair comparison)

I prefer him having a leadership ability because I like the fluff of him being a herd leader and some sort of granted ability makes him play like he's one.

[Sevwall]

I agree with you right now, but I think the +1 POW on the fist would push him into 'worth 2 more points' range, if only because he starts scrapping heavies.

I understand the want of fluffy abilities, I was just seeing (and trying to put into perspective) where the 'needs' end and the 'wants' begin. Mostly because all over the community the 'wants' seem to be outweighing the 'needs'.

[Tyrannus]

I understand the want of fluffy abilities, I was just seeing (and trying to put into perspective) where the 'needs' end and the 'wants' begin. Mostly because all over the community the 'wants' seem to be outweighing the 'needs'.Always remember: the wants of the many outweigh the needs of the few ;)

And yes, he does need a decent chance at killing a heavy each round. This is the Skorne. Our theme has always been, "we do massive damage output, with just enough armor so we don't die on the way getting there."

[Khador247]

I agree that I'd like to see the Bronzeback have P&S 17 fists. Right now I agree with dboeren in that I don't think he's worth two more points than a Gladiator. +1 Fury and MAT are nice but I feel he needs a bit more especially since he only costs 1 point less than Karn. Even if the Bronzeback got P&S 17 fists I'd still rather have Karn.

I think that part of the problem with Titans in general is that they are designed to slam. For instance, look at the Bronzeback's animus. Ok so you slam with your Bronzeback and follow up. Now what? Are you close enough to your warlock to be able to force him to make any follow up attacks? Chances are pretty good that the answer is no especially if you're using the five fury warlocks. He has Stampede and grants Stampede to other Titans which allows then to slam with Pathfinder. I'd much rather be able to charge with Pathfinder than slam with it. Slams are still decent but experienced players know to watch for them. The fact that models can now shake off the effects of knockdown definitely makes slams less useful.

Unrelated but I just noticed that the Rhinodon lost the crit Armor Piercing attack. :confused:

Question, Fate Ward makes it so enemy models can't boost attack or damage rolls against Karn. Does this include the auto boosted damage from charges?

[Kommissar Golovko]

Question, Fate Ward makes it so enemy models can't boost attack or damage rolls against Karn. Does this include the auto boosted damage from charges?

Yes, including charges.

[Yertle4]

So all in all I find him a huge, huge bore. And if I were a Skorne player, I would take him every game until the cows came home.

Of course you would. Look at all our other heavies :p

[Sevwall]

Right. But I'm realtively sure they suck in relation to Karn. They don't suck on thier own (Rhinodon excluded). The Bronzeback could use a tweak up in power, but he isn't bad. The Gladiator is a whole mess of hard to kill, and he will beat you up well in return. The Shooty one is still good at shooting, and got even better in melee.

Why would you say you are designed to slam with them? Sure, they can slam well, but its pretty clear to me that the real reason to include one is to whomp something with 3 base attacks are pretty decent power. Hell, even your ranged titan has about as much melee potential as some other melee heavies. The slamming aspect is a fluff thing because they are pachyderms. The Bronzebacks animus is thematic, and I'm sure you'd rather it was something less cornercase, but I'm not sure that can be changed.

Just because you can do something well doesn't mean you should do it. Stick to pounding faces.

[Maudlin]

My main point is that when buffed, which is admittedly possible for 4 of your casters (Defenders Ward, Armor of Karrak, Mordikaar Feat and Admonition) he becomes quite hard, even impossible for many lists to deal with. He could be tweaked so that most lists had the possibility of killing him were he to expose himself to the entire army, while still retaining his survivability and perhaps even gaining in other areas, like offense.

(snip)

All of these possibilities add to his survivability. In the end, you get to a place where unless you have the right pieces in the right places, you simply cannot kill, possible cannot even hurt Karn.

I love theorymachine. That's not sarcasm, I do. However, theorymachine is very good at focusing on one specific issue and very very bad at seeing the whole picture.

So, just because I said I enjoyed it, let's look at a differnt, equally narrow picture. Let's even take the Long Riders, just because they're maligned and you play trolls, versus Molik Karn with Defender's Ward, Fate Ward and Safeguard.

Let's also say you're willing to spend 1 turn focusing on killing Molik Karn. So, you give 4 of them Rage for 6 fury and an animus, War Cry and Charge of the Trolls. None of these are warcaster specific, and none of these require you to hit him.

Now, on the charge, you hit on anything but snake eyes and deal 2d6-1 damage on each charge attack, and 2d6-4 on each impact attack (they need 4s to hit). If 4 get into combat and 2 get in B2B, that'll kill him with a few points to spare, on average.

That's 1 unit, 1 turn, and 0 warcaster buffs except the fury investment. (You don't even need War Cry, that's just if you're feeling fancy or tend to roll a lot of 3s). Champions have an even easier time of it, each similary buffed Champion deals 13 damage average to Molik, who has 28.

Now, you won't always be facing Makeda, nearly *every* warcaster has some ability to help out here, and those aren't even the only stackable troll buffs. That's why it's useful to get some games in, even if that phrase makes some of you claw your eyes out by now. The funny thing is, it nearly always works out on the battlefield. You have a *lot* of tools at your disposal. It's kind of what I enjoy about the game.

True, you no longer get the boost on charging, and that makes a difference. Still, on average that means he has the equivalent of ARM 21.5 if all your damage rolls were boosted automatically. If that is insurmountable to anyone, I hope they don't face Warmachine often.

[LACK OF SUBTLETY]

This actually isnt a bad idea, if we were to get the Kreas animus back.

A counter balance.

Skorne needs a offensive animus to slow the incoming army.

I find this statement to be a bit off considering that this thread is discussing a model that can cross the entire board in one turn and has access to the tyrant commander which can allow any of your infantry units to either move faster or ignore terrain. Supposedly the weaknesses of the Skorne faction.

So the skorne have become noticeably faster, but need something to slow the enemy down so they can get to them?

If you want the Krea's animus back, you'll need to be willing to give up some of the speed boosts.

[Helion]

+1 STR and a more useful power to grant to other Titans I think is all he needs to fix him up. I don't know what sort of leadership power he ought to have though. At a minimum, maybe if Stampede let you Slam *or* Charge with Pathfinder instead of only Slamming?

I'm with dboeren on this one. I would love the Bronzeback if he had P+S 17, lost berzerk as fluffy as it seems, and had a leadership ability that helped the titans with movement. Look at Kador and all of their abilities that outright give pathfinder or speed to their jacks. Then look at ours.
Road to war
Abuse
Leash
Fate Walker (Molik's animus)
enrage on the Paingivers
and finally a little terrain love with Ghost walk from Mordi.

Out of these, only 1 affects the entire battlegroup. Also don't forget that Makeda has R2W and Leash, so the spread on spd buffs is not even.

Kador has Boundless charge on 4 casters. This gives 2 spd and Pathfinder and can usually be cast multiple times.

Full throttle which allows free charges and slams with boosted attack rolls. Not the best speed boost, but a free charge is big for a jack.

Energizer and Artifice of Deviation on Irusk. Basically like mk 1 makeda, he can spend some focus to place an AOE of Pathfinder down, and spend up to three focus to move his jack's 1 inch per focus spent.

Superiority on Irusk, +2 spd.

Karchev's feat gives pathfinder and some other goodies, he can tow 3 heavies behind him with pathfinder then let them move on on their merry way.

And Zerkova has watcher which provides out of turn movement.

Not to mention the Kodiak has built in Pathfinder and the ability to run without spending focus.

Titan's have the same speed as Kador jacks, due to being able to boost can hit like them, but as a faction, we don't have access to NEARLY as much spd boosts for them as we probably should. Especially where terrain is concerned.
If the BB could do something for the titans in the speed department, and deliver them to their targets without getting torn to pieces on the way, I would be very pleased. If they keep on with their slam centric ways, no matter how effective that may be in the corner cases, I won't be happy.

[Dolomyte]

I love theorymachine. That's not sarcasm, I do. However, theorymachine is very good at focusing on one specific issue and very very bad at seeing the whole picture.

Snip.

True, you no longer get the boost on charging, and that makes a difference. Still, on average that means he has the equivalent of ARM 21.5 if all your damage rolls were boosted automatically. If that is insurmountable to anyone, I hope they don't face Warmachine often.

Almost makes me want to play trolls, sounds like they can wreck house. In reference to the thread, Molik Karn is fine with fate ward as it stands, he is in the same league as typhon is as far as being good, and I think he is probably a tad weaker then deathjack and some of the the other 12 point jacks. as he probably should be. Let's be realistic, if you make identical lists and switch molik and the bronzeback as the only change, the lists with molik will do much better. Not because molik is OP, but because the bronzeback is absolutely nothing worth taking at the moment.

[Sevwall]

Maudlin: Good example of how it is possible. I will only respond in stating that it requires a situation I find unlikely, in that 4 longriders will rarely be in a situation to recieve 3 buffs from a caster, one from a Mauler, one from the chronicler, all be able to get a line to Karn, and also get a warbeast in melee with Karn.

It has to do with no arc nodes, short ranges, and the fact that Longriders like to flank away from the main body of the force.

Since it requires so much to be in the right place, I personally file it under 'very difficult to do'. You don't and thats fine.

So I think at that point we are two reasonable people with good points who disagree, and thats fine.

[Keegantir]

I find this statement to be a bit off considering that this thread is discussing a model that can cross the entire board in one turn and has access to the tyrant commander which can allow any of your infantry units to either move faster or ignore terrain. Supposedly the weaknesses of the Skorne faction.

So the skorne have become noticeably faster, but need something to slow the enemy down so they can get to them?

If you want the Krea's animus back, you'll need to be willing to give up some of the speed boosts.

Actually Skorne is slower than it was before. That is the one thing that saddens me the most as I loved the speed assault type of army, where my slowest speed figs were 6 and they were left in the dust by my 7s and 8s.

This probably has a lot to do with the reason that I don't like our heavies, other than Karn, as I really have never liked the turtle (I have played Skorne since launch and have used the Cetrati only 3 or 4 times).

[Maudlin]

Maudlin: Good example of how it is possible. I will only respond in stating that it requires a situation I find unlikely.

Since it requires so much to be in the right place, I personally file it under 'very difficult to do'. You don't and thats fine.

So I think at that point we are two reasonable people with good points who disagree, and thats fine.
Is it really all that unlikely? You need any caster and dire/pyre/slag within ~11" of your long riders, and a chronicler within 14". That's entirely within your control. The only way it won't work is if Molik Karn stays more than 10"-12" away from your lines the whole game, because he knows he will die if he doesn't. That too is a flavor of victory.

Anyway, I think you maybe slightly missed second point of my post. It was not to come up with a 'better' case of theorymachine than yours. Yours was perfectly fine and a good chunk less hysterical than can be found on the forums these days, it's just that for any scenario where you can picture Molik demolishing your army, I can come up with one where he gets utterly stomped. Your opponent will be working towards the first, while you will be working towards the second. The outcome will fall somewhere in the middle, and that's the game of Hordes.

Will he be a serious inconvenience? Absolutely. Are you helpless to stop him? Absolutely not. There has not yet been devised a lock so devious and intricate that it cannot be opened by a large enough axe.

[dboeren]

I think his point is not so much to do with distances in order for multiple things to cooperate. Yes, you can control that.

I think it's rather more to do with "what if you don't have those things in your list to begin with"?

I'm sure there are Trollblood lists without a Chronicler, or without the right beasts. I don't know what percentage of them, but they surely exist. Then too, what if the Chronicler dies? He's just a solo with no special survival powers and rather poor DEF/ARM.

What about other factions? Do they all have equivalent tools? Are those tools likely to all be in list and alive when they're needed?

If you need special tools to have a good shot at taking down Karn, then he needs to be looked at more carefully to make sure it's not a balance issue. If almost any list can do it, then he's fine.

[Dolomyte]

Are we talking in a friendly game or a tournie? Your absolutely right, if I take, in example, all shredders and vayl, I will most likely feel molik is broken. If I am playing an all bloodrunner skorne list with just basilisk drakes, yes, going to lose.

Any competitive list will be able to handle molik. I would love for you to make a list you feel could be competitive at say templecon, but would have absolutely zero way of winning if skorne took molik. I suppose my point is its just one model, when I play with deneghra against khador, I don't attempt to kill the jacks or man o wars, I infact could care less about them, I (hopefully) kill the caster.

[lastspartacus]

Personally, I have only used Molik with the Makedas.
With defender's ward its true, he does get harder to kill when forcing.
I had a carnivean under incite kill me while only having to spend one fury though, i didnt find him that invincible. Every faction has buffs that allows you to hit him on average rolls. With defender's ward, the number of lists that can hit on averages shrinks, but i dont see it yet, as a *** model, i will be playtesting more however.
So we got one legion class beast, I for one am definately not auto including him in, for instance, my zaal lists.

If fate ward is changed to allow charge damage and such, I would be totally ok with that. So long as our other beasts got better, thats what i really want. Currently he is our only competant heavy. The others, at best, are 'worth their points', said in an unenthusiastic tone.

Edit: Aw come on, its the one eyed giant in the room. I was saving the 'Elephant in the room' line for when they fix titans to brokeness, curse you! ;)

[Sevwall]

I would like to restate that my prefered fix is keeping charges against him 3d6. Basically, putting Fate Ward to what it was in MKI.

[dboeren]

Works for me. Maybe it'll make him drop enough that we can take him for 10 points? :)

Yeah, obviously he's good with Makeda but I used to use him a lot with Mordikaar in MkI. On feat turn he was pretty untouchable but that's only one turn after all. I'd still rather go up against that than Saeryn's feat with a couple Angelius...

[apollosun]

Fate Ward was fixed with the charge boost removed. Its now a decent attribute for a named, but not super and should not be changed at this point. Period.

Have you people who are asking to have this removed, because it's 'overpowered', played Karn? He's really soft and drops easily against any multi-attack models with POW 14 or better, along with weaponmaster-types. Skorne players know this and any skorne player saying Fate Ward is to powerful should receive the skorne of the Skorne. Its just a decent attribute that does not make him unkillable at all, just a tad bit safer since his def and arm suck. Removing the charge bonus is the only thing that makes it actually worthwhile.

Most decent solos/infantry/beasts will only need a 6 or 7 to hit him, without boosting thats average. To damage him without boosting most decent troops would need the same roll. Melee focused heavies with high POW attacks will usually be damaging with straight dice. I don't understand how people think that is overpowering.

[Razhem]

Its just a decent attribute that does not make him unkillable at all, just a tad bit safer since his def and arm suck. Removing the charge bonus is the only thing that makes it actually worthwhile.

Hyperbolemuch? He has better defensive stats than an Ironclad. Def 13 coupled with Arm 18 is fantastic for any heavy since it starts getting into nice defence territory yet is hardy enough to shrug lower end attacks. Also, he has the same hit-points as a bronzeback while having 2 more defence and one less armour (a better deal by a huge margin), so if Karn has bad defensive stats, than 75% of the game has mediocre defensive stats by your logic.

[Maudlin]

I think his point is not so much to do with distances in order for multiple things to cooperate. Yes, you can control that.

I think it's rather more to do with "what if you don't have those things in your list to begin with"?

(snip)

If you need special tools to have a good shot at taking down Karn, then he needs to be looked at more carefully to make sure it's not a balance issue. If almost any list can do it, then he's fine.

My personal feeling is that if your list isn't able to deal out high damage (which is fine), it should have alternative ways of dealing with high-armour targets.

As I said, ARM 18 Molik without boosts is just ARM 21.5 Molik *with* boosts. Undeniably potent, certainly with added buffs, but not all that excessive. If you can't kill him, and you can't otherwise keep him out of your hair, then you would have problems with a great many lists.

I'm not suggesting balance in the field test is perfect, and PP is looking for solid feedback for exactly that reason. I just felt posts like "If you buff Molik Karn then you win" (not to single that one out) were just a bit dismissive of the possibilities in the game, and suggesting as much would not improve the quality of feedback.

[apollosun]

"since his def and arm suck"

Ha! That is somewhat of a hyperbole. I'll revise that to say his def/arm are not inspiring enough to make Fate Ward a broken attribute. Armies have multiple options to get around losing a boosted roll so its not a game breaker, simply something you adapt to as Karn's opponent.

[Arkady]

As I said, ARM 18 Molik without boosts is just ARM 21.5 Molik *with* boosts. Undeniably potent, certainly with added buffs, but not all that excessive. If you can't kill him, and you can't otherwise keep him out of your hair, then you would have problems with a great many lists.

Skorne has quite a few ways to boost his ARM, the easiest probably being Paralytic Aura, which makes him at least as tough as Arcane Shielded Centurions, with a LOT more offensive potential. It is also a bit misleading to simply average the die out to 3.5. Going by that assumption, a POW12 (for example) attack would never hurt something with that much ARM, with or without a boost, which is obviously not true.

That said, I've only faced him once, but he was quite a hassle to deal with. I still won the game because my opponent relegated him to a flanking role, so I was able to hold him at bay by feeding him models while I went for the caster. My plan worked, but I attribute a large amount of my success to my opponent being relatively new to the game, and not yet familiar with the strengths of his models nor how to properly protect a caster. I'm sure Molik would be a far bigger thorn in the hands of some of our other Skorne players, or even the same one now that he's seen his beastliness first hand. Of course, more games will be necessary regardless, and hopefully the combined feedback will result in a more balanced game (more so than WM MkII).

[knightdrake]

"since his def and arm suck"

Ha! That is somewhat of a hyperbole. I'll revise that to say his def/arm are not inspiring enough to make Fate Ward a broken attribute. Armies have multiple options to get around losing a boosted roll so its not a game breaker, simply something you adapt to as Karn's opponent.


I've played your Karn with Fateward up, it does cause a bit more thought into damaging him. Getting him down to 3 wounds left wasn't much of an issue, just those final 3 eluded me.

As I read the MK2 version and no charge boost allowed it doesn't concern me much as overpowered. Bein a Khador player there are models available with weaponmaster and spell to boost POW of add an additional die. As for the other faction there is something available. The current Karn will be the least of any issues I will have with Skorne lists.

[Sevwall]

If his effective ARM with Fate Ward is 21.5, doesn't that make his DEF 16.5?

Isn't a DEF 16.5 ARM 21.5 model a bit much?

Hell, I'm not even saying kill Fate Ward (even though I would love to say that, I really would) I'm just asking for it to be like it was in MKI.

[SteakAndSpirits]

If I played Skorne, and I were playing to win, I don't think there's a single list I would ever create that didn't include him.

Ever.

As a player who plays against Skorne, if I were ever to make a tournament list, it would have to be able to address a 20+ Armor Karn.

Immunity to boosts is a big deal. I'm not sure why it's being downplayed?

Except in some very niche circumstances, he will at least require an equal number of points expended by an opponent to take out. I imagine that many lists simply will not have the tools to address him directly.

-s&s

[Sinsation]

Let's even take the Long Riders, just because they're maligned and you play trolls, versus Molik Karn with Defender's Ward, Fate Ward and Safeguard.

Let's also say you're willing to spend 1 turn focusing on killing Molik Karn. So, you give 4 of them Rage for 6 fury and an animus, War Cry and Charge of the Trolls. None of these are warcaster specific, and none of these require you to hit him.

That's 1 unit, 1 turn, and 0 warcaster buffs except the fury investment. (You don't even need War Cry, that's just if you're feeling fancy or tend to roll a lot of 3s). Champions have an even easier time of it, each similary buffed Champion deals 13 damage average to Molik, who has 28.

Assuming you're playing a warlock who has 6 fury available, you're still looking what an investment of the mauler, warlock, chronicler, fell caller, long riders, and another light beast who you ran in to get the charge of the trolls bonus. That's 30 points to kill an 11 point unit, and now your warlock probably has no fury left, and you're extremely susceptible to counterattack that will cost you much more than 11 points.

Since Fate Ward protects against charges and boosts, I don't see many times you would ever not use the ability. I'd say it's the most powerful defensive ability in the game for 1 fury in MKI, and it got even better in MKII.

[Dolomyte]

If I played Skorne, and I were playing to win, I don't think there's a single list I would ever create that didn't include him.

Ever.

As a player who plays against Skorne, if I were ever to make a tournament list, it would have to be able to address a 20+ Armor Karn.

Immunity to boosts is a big deal. I'm not sure why it's being downplayed?

Except in some very niche circumstances, he will at least require an equal number of points expended by an opponent to take out. I imagine that many lists simply will not have the tools to address him directly.

-s&s

It should take an equal number of points expended by an opponent to take him out, that seems perfectly balanced. if a 3 / 4 point solo could kill him alone, he would only be worth 3/4 points himself.

[Khador247]

Unless I see some major improvements for our other heavies I'm not inclined to say he should be nerfed. I don't want to drag him down with our other lackluster choices. If other factions want to give negative feedback about Karn then let em.

[goreshde]

Here are some simple ways to kill him for all of the hordes factions

mauler + mauler's animus
feral warp wolf + Primal
Typhon

[Sevwall]

Yes, these all deal nicely with an unbuffed Molike Karn. That is not the issue. He is exponentially harder to deal with when buffed.

[goreshde]

mauler + mauler's animus + doomshapper
feral warp wolf + primal + forced evolution
Typhon + incite

An easy way every faction can easily kill Karn with defender's ward on him. Yes, all those require a specific warlock but so does fate ward.

[SteakAndSpirits]

It should take an equal number of points expended by an opponent to take him out, that seems perfectly balanced. if a 3 / 4 point solo could kill him alone, he would only be worth 3/4 points himself.

I agree. Perhaps I was being generous in my phrasing.

Let me try again:

Except in some very niche circumstances, he will at least require an equal number of points expended by an opponent to take out - In most cases, the points and resources required to eliminate him will greatly exceed his value, if the list is equipped to deal with him at all.

-s&s

[Sevwall]

I don't want to nitpick, but Wild Agression boosts, so Doomshapers got nothing on him. You could use pMadrak, and then it would be about right.

[goreshde]

I don't want to nitpick, but Wild Agression boosts, so Doomshapers got nothing on him. You could use pMadrak, and then it would be about right.

Edoomie has wild aggression (a spell I would LOVE in skorne) while regular doomie has purification to get rid of the upkeep.

As you point out, Mauler + Madrak is another combo that could easily kill him.

I do not see why you believe he is so hard to kill when these simple things exist that can kill him in one turn.

[Mutton]

So the list of 'casters that can kill him
pMadrak
pDoomie
Feral Cannon in general (It's the ultimate trump card, but also a one way ticket outside of pKaya and eKaya's feat)
pMakeda
pLylyth feat
Vayl

Those are the 'casters that can deal with Molik Karn under Defender's Ward. Circle has the easiest time as we are quite accurate and have a trump to him, but it's not a long list.

[Donesh]

That list is hardly complete and ignores non-warlock means.

The Chronicler pushes Champs up far enough to make a serious dent in him. Fellcallers do the same.

Circle has enough MAT buffs across the board that hitting him under defenders ward isn't really a problem. Mat 11 P+S15 Tharn Ravengers shouldn't really have issues with him.

Both of those were off the top of my head and I am sure there are more.

[goreshde]

So the list of 'casters that can kill him
pMadrak
pDoomie
Feral Cannon in general (It's the ultimate trump card, but also a one way ticket outside of pKaya and eKaya's feat)
pMakeda
pLylyth feat
Vayl

Those are the 'casters that can deal with Molik Karn under Defender's Ward. Circle has the easiest time as we are quite accurate and have a trump to him, but it's not a long list.

You are afraid of Karn under one caster. How do you kill the Avatar with defender's ward? The Avatar hits hard, better, has better in faction buffs, gets enliven, has higher armor, has more health, and does not care where you caster is.

Menoth has two caster that can give him defenders ward.

How do you plan on killing the avatar in a single turn? The answer is you don't. Take two turn and the damage Karn is putting out still is not nearly as good as the avatar. I am glad Skorn has something to worries people a little, but it does not break the game and there is worse stuff out there already.

Why do you care if it is a one way ticket for the feral cannon? You are killing Karn (11 vs 9 points, that is a good trade) and then you have a def 14 beast I have to deal with.

There are also other combos out there that can kill him in a single turn. Those are just the obvious ones that come to mind.

[dicegod]

Molik Karn does similar damage as the Avatar with the Paingivers as the Avatar does with the Choir.
The Avatar doesn't have DEF16.5 and a sheild that can't be knocked out... Or is SPD6 with an animus. He can't be healed either, but I digress.

I would drop him to 10 and reword fate ward to say that you cannot be forced/ spend focus/fury to boost rolls against him. Maybe give +1MAT to Cyclops in his CMD too.

[Maudlin]

If his effective ARM with Fate Ward is 21.5, doesn't that make his DEF 16.5?

Isn't a DEF 16.5 ARM 21.5 model a bit much?

Hell, I'm not even saying kill Fate Ward (even though I would love to say that, I really would) I'm just asking for it to be like it was in MKI.
Nono, he's clearly just DEF 13, a MAT 6 will hit him over half the time. I didn't focus on DEF because that's identical to Mk 1 (one buff excepted).

My point was that it would be equivalent on average to a 16.5 / 21.5 model if all your attack and damage rolls were automatically boosted.

As those are not excessive in an environment with (automatic) boosts, my reasoning was that his regular stats are not excessive in an environment without.

[Yertle4]

Molik Karn does similar damage as the Avatar with the Paingivers as the Avatar does with the Choir.
The Avatar doesn't have DEF16.5 and a sheild that can't be knocked out... Or is SPD6 with an animus. He can't be healed either, but I digress.

I would drop him to 10 and reword fate ward to say that you cannot be forced/ spend focus/fury to boost rolls against him. Maybe give +1MAT to Cyclops in his CMD too.

Avatar Gazes.
Avatar gets enlivened.
Avatar has no focus dependency.
Avatar deals/takes way more damage than Molik.
Most Hordes factions would take the Avatar over most of their beasts right now.
The Avatar fathered Chuck Norris.

Quit comparing everything to the Avatar. It's a lose-lose situation :p

[Malebolgia]

Nono, he's clearly just DEF 13, a MAT 6 will hit him over half the time. I didn't focus on DEF because that's identical to Mk 1 (one buff excepted).

My point was that it would be equivalent on average to a 16.5 / 21.5 model if all your attack and damage rolls were automatically boosted.

As those are not excessive in an environment with (automatic) boosts, my reasoning was that his regular stats are not excessive in an environment without.

But we're talking about an unbuffed DEF16.5/ARM21.5 beast with one heck of a basic threat range for a heavy. It's like a Stalker with the Behemoth's armor plating! Add in faction-buffs and a lot of armies will have one heck of a problem hitting them and doing enough damage. That's even without things like terrain and your own army around him.
Main problem is he's one heck of a threat that has to be stopped or else he will maul a flank alone or thrash through your centre. And in order to do this, you will need buffs and the right tools or else it's pointless for most models to even try. In your Trollblood example you have a specific unit with buffs from specific models. This all needs the right setup in terrain, models and an opponent who places his MK in charge range of 4 Long Riders. Yeah, in that case he deserves to lose his beast.
Although theory, I really dread situations with armies which work generally well, but will have a big problem against MK. So I share Sevwall's reservations. MK overshadows the other Skorne heavies and he can have a huge impact in a game. He will be one of those things I really want to test in the FT period to see if my fears are sound or silly. That's the best bit about the FT...seeing if your theorymachine works out or if you brainfarted the whole thing :cool:

Although I actually like the idea that infantry can't scratch him, I would actually prefer the Fate Ward to function that you can only boost with focus/fury. So infantry still stand and shudder at him, but jacks and beasts will be the tools to take him out (like it should be).

[Razhem]

Could people stop using the def 16.5 fallacy? that only applies when you boost constantly, because mat 7 models won't boost unless it's vitally necesary and mat 6 troops can manage trough it with no boosts. Mat 5 is where it hurts for real.

[Kommissar Golovko]

I played a game today against pAsphyxious and after he parasited MK, he killed him off even with Fate Ward up after 4 rolls. I used Xerxis and decided to not upkeep AoK but even with AoK up, I think pAsphyxious would have just needed another attack to kill of Mk.

Definitely more testing needed of course and will try to do my best to maximize MKs arm and def some more.

[Malebolgia]

Could people stop using the def 16.5 fallacy? that only applies when you boost constantly, because mat 7 models won't boost unless it's vitally necesary and mat 6 troops can manage trough it with no boosts. Mat 5 is where it hurts for real.

Touché :). It's easy to start seeing him as DEF 16.5, while that is indeed bollocks, unless facing beasts and jacks.

[Mazinger]

Guys, can we just go "please be quiet Sevwall" and move on please?

Molik Karn is not broken, he's difficult to kill but so are Khador 'jacks for some factions. It requires you to change tactics to deal with him and this is a good thing. Karn can only kill so many things in a turn and you can bog him down with cheap infantry.

As a Retribution player (primary, ex Skorne but back for the fieldtest) I can't deal with Khador heavy 'jacks, I just can't push the damage through with anything but 1 unit. Should I complain they are broken or just go "I can't deal witht his model, I'll have to go round it"? Warmachine does not need every model being 1 wound def5 arm 12, it needs every model to be unique and interesting. Molik Karn is a heavy that is difficult to kill, that is his thing in MKII and he's unique in that. If the trolls struggle to kill him with no boosts maybe they should use some of their buffs on their heavy beasts and smash him that way.

[Maudlin]

But we're talking about an unbuffed DEF16.5/ARM21.5 beast with one heck of a basic threat range for a heavy. It's like a Stalker with the Behemoth's armor plating! Add in faction-buffs and a lot of armies will have one heck of a problem hitting them and doing enough damage. That's even without things like terrain and your own army around him.
I'm regretting using the comparison already :) It's very clearly not a DEF 16/ARM 21 model, it's a DEF 13/ARM 18 model. It is as easy to hit by an unboosted attack roll as a DEF 16.5 model is by a boosted attack roll. Which is to say, moderately easy. You need on average a MAT 6.

It is as easy to damage by an unboosted damage roll as an ARM 21.5 model is by a boosted damage roll, which again is not that extreme. You need on average a P+S 12 to do some damage.

An unbuffed Mulg or Warpwolf will paste an unbuffed but Fate-Warded Molik on average rolls, with 2 fury to spare.


In your Trollblood example you have a specific unit with buffs from specific models. This all needs the right setup in terrain, models and an opponent who places his MK in charge range of 4 Long Riders. Yeah, in that case he deserves to lose his beast.Yes indeed, but as my exercise was prefaced with "let's look at a different, equally narrow picture", and basically intended to show how theorymachine is enjoyable but generally flawed through its limited scope, I fail to be chastised by the several replies that have pointed out how it is limited in scope.

Are those arguments not just as applicable to the scenarios where Molik is devastating whole armies by himself?

I think if people do the exercise in both directions, their feedback will be better.

(And generally, if your opponent is forced to keep Molik 12" away from your lines or with an army in between, that won't suck for you.)


He will be one of those things I really want to test in the FT period to see if my fears are sound or silly. That's the best bit about the FT...seeing if your theorymachine works out or if you brainfarted the whole thing :cool:Great! :)

[Draekon Darkstorm]

Molik is no harder to kill than Typhon. Typhon removes small wimpy hits with his animus, while Karn removes big hits. They both are equally survivable.

Draekon