Does the KSB need to leech of beasts?

[Bu2]

In my opinion: yes, the KSB needs to leech off beasts. Even using the mechanics of the Sentry stone (one fury at a time per beast within command range) would be enough.

The reasons:

1. Troll warlocks are low fury and have good spells. Even on turn one they can't afford to drop too much on the KSB, as you generally will want to get the upkeeps running and that's 2-3 fury max landing on the KSB. The next turns are when you want to use your warlock's potential to the fullest, not waste fury on increasing the range of an aura.

2. No fury management tools outside of warlocks. Whelps prevent only the frenzy aspect, but after that the beast is usually limited to little or no boosting, no power attacks etc. No fury management as a theme is a design error, much like "no pathfinder" was in Skorne or "no ranged" would be. It's an essential element of the game.

3. Multi-activation micromanagement problems! Medium bases, overlapping effects etc. One example is having to activate your warlock first to increase the range of the Aura. It is a counter-intuitive, clunky and unnecessary mechanic.





Other problems with the KSB:

1. Aura = action anchors the important parts of an army at 5" movement for the +2ARM bonus.

2. Two out of the three auras granted by the Stone Scribe Elder are offensive in nature, which means that to take advantage of them, the unit needs to be activated before everything else in the army. However, this is usually impossible, because they are placed behind everything else. Even if they manage to squeeze through, they are blocking charge lanes and LOS. Again, multi-activation micromanagement problems. One possible solution to this would be to increase the range of the aura to 4"+2"xfury.

[HellecticMojo]

5 spd is indeed horrible to deal with but I've learnt to deal with it somewhat.

I totally agree on the unit activation order shannigans. It becomes very stressful near the lategame where everything counts and with warlocks like Madrak or Borka you can't really pass the fury pass the turn 1

I don't mind the aura issue. it's always been there, we'll live through it.

Leaching off beasts... currently we need it more than ever. MK1 trolls, it was disheartening but tolerable as correct implementation of frenzy still got you some boosted attacks. Frenzying totally sucks now.

unless our casters get higher fury or something else to mitigate the excess fury we need the stone to leech.

“Ah, I am merely studying your annoyed expression.”

[Sevwall]

He just needs to aura to be an any time during this model's activation ability.

[Loki77515]

I've gotten the impression from Privateer play-testers themselves that we won't be getting any REAL form of fury management.

I mean, right after the Field Test started Mr.Soles came on and basically said as much.

Now, with that in mind, I don't think the KSB will ever be able to pull fury off of beasts. I really want it to be able to, but I just don't think its ever going to happen thanks to Privateer's interesting design philosophy behind Trollbloods.

If we never are able to pull fury off of beasts then I really want one of the following two things to happen to the KSB:

- Protective Aura becomes like a Fell Call in that you don't need a *Action to use it.

- It remains a *Action but does not require Fury. It just gives a flat 8" area of effect all the time which can't be increased or decreased.

Those are the options I think we can best hope for when it comes to changing the KSB. I fully agree that it feel like a boat-anchor around my neck whenever I use it, but the buffs are so nice that I, like many others, tolerate it's Fury-sucking presence.

[The Anders]

It will become an even bigger auto include it it were to leach fury.. Which I see as a bad thing as it will draw even more heat in battle.

[Loki77515]

It will become an even bigger auto include it it were to leach fury.. Which I see as a bad thing as it will draw even more heat in battle.
Good point.

[PhoenixBlaze]

I for one have never used a KSB. While that means I can't talk about it from experience, on paper, it just doesn't work for me. The overall idea rocks! But I tend to burn through Fury with my locks, so having yet another thing using the stuff up is just a bother.

It'll never leach off beasts, but the standard 8" plus 1" per extra member would be amazing! It'd work from the moment go.

I'd be fine with not having any Fury management *if* we had something to make up for it. We don't. But Legion with high fury locks do? Huh......while fluff doesn't equal rules, it seems that "faction standing" does. In the fluff, we're barely surviving and take any small victories we can get a hold of, so it seems PP design us with that in mind, we kick *** and break face, but normally lose to superior forces.

[Soylent]

First off I'm in the camp that it shouldn't be a *action much like the Agonizer and Fellcaller.

Second, Trolls are a faction that's all about order of operations. If you've played Menoth then you know all about it. Don't think of it as a hindrance, think of it as stacking your power-base.

With that out of the way, there are options and things you may not have considered.

Plan ahead. If you're going to use it offensively, make sure you have a gap or a model to activate first to get out of the way. Not everyone in front of it needs the buff offensively(you may want it but you likely don't need it) so activate something that can do without the buff first, do it's thing and now you have a gap. Yes this takes creative thinking on your part but the pay off is usually good.


Defensive buff. Did you know you can move your KSB 7-8" a turn to keep up? Chances are you'll only need to move that fast a turn or two(first turn you can typically afford to run). Axer animus is a solution as is power attack push. Yes it's unorthodox but many of the best solutions are.

[Zombied00d]

The KSB becoming more of an auto include is immaterial, we already get taxed for point costs and stats as though we had the KSB in our army anyway.

I'm of the opinion that if they are going to force us to take it then we should get some kind of flexibility from it so it's not so much of a weight. For crying out loud, look at the KSB. It's slow, it's a resource hog in a faction with very little resource to spare, and it doesn't pull it's weight in combat, plus it clogs up our backfield.

And yet, we're forced to take it.

[Soylent]

The KSB becoming more of an auto include is immaterial, we already get taxed for point costs and stats as though we had the KSB in our army anyway.

I'm of the opinion that if they are going to force us to take it then we should get some kind of flexibility from it so it's not so much of a weight. For crying out loud, look at the KSB. It's slow, it's a resource hog in a faction with very little resource to spare, and it doesn't pull it's weight in combat, plus it clogs up our backfield.

And yet, we're forced to take it.

You're not forced to take it, you take it because it's flippin' fantastic. It doesn't have to be a resource hog, you make it so because you want to get the most coverage out of it(sometimes more than you need). You say it's slow because you allow it to be so...there are options to speed it up.

*edit* Not trying to be confrontational, just wanting you to think about what you can do before throwing in the towel.

[Negative9]

I'd like to see it with a fixed range range of 8"-10" and still require fury. For example, give it a 5 fury capacity and have the scribes simply function as ablative wounds with self sacrifice. That would allow it to be fully functional later in game and allow us to spread out more and be still be effective without being a fury taxing drain.

[Bu2]

It will become an even bigger auto include it it were to leach fury.. Which I see as a bad thing as it will draw even more heat in battle.

This is very true now. The only option to resolve this issue would be to release a fury managing solo/unit that also does something else. This would probably take the pressure off the KSB, but it's way beyond what the field test's supposed to be for.

But taking this in consideration:


I've gotten the impression from Privateer play-testers themselves that we won't be getting any REAL form of fury management.

I mean, right after the Field Test started Mr.Soles came on and basically said as much.

We know it's not going to happen.

[PhoenixBlaze]

What I want to know now is why?

And not answers like "so every faction is different" or any nonsense about playstyle or buffs, or this that and the next thing. A proper, hardcore design aspect answer.

Infact, I want *a lot* of answers for our playstyle, how it came about, what they think the optimal Trollblood playstyle would be composed of and most importantly, why are we bottom of the bunch!? (cos we are!).

[HellecticMojo]

I've gotten the impression from Privateer play-testers themselves that we won't be getting any REAL form of fury management.

I mean, right after the Field Test started Mr.Soles came on and basically said as much.



the whole thing about each faction being unique for sake of uniquehas left me confused.

Aren't all the factions getting a mechanic in WM books? I just don't see why we can't have ANY control over fury. also didn't the skorne get pathfinder by Meta? there is a difference between unique and handicapping.

I don't care if it's not as good as the paingivers, shepards, or anyone else. I just want a modicum of control.

MK2 is the perfect opportunity to rebalance and tweak the major concerns of each faction and the blatant "no" is bit jarring.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/CruxisAurion/Yotsuba_NO.jpg

[The Anders]

It truly sucks that we get taxed for somthing that get's killed so easy :(

[ozmo]

It definitely needs to be able to activate at any time to let it keep up with the rest of the army, otherwise too many troops are left out of the aura.

For Borka and Madrak, it's very hard to fill and keep it filled, if PP doesn't want to bump up their fury, maybe have the activation not cost a fury.

[CodeRed97]

My Wish:

If we are never going to get fury management then the stone needs two things. One, it needs to be an activate at any time ability. We lose consistently because of our inability to move up the field. Everyone else's solos can rune the first turn, why shouldn't ours?

Two, remove the fury aspect. We are the faction with the most FRY 5 casters and every other Hordes faction has at least one 8 FRY caster. Set the aura to 4" plus 1" for every other member of the unit alive. As the guys die or are sacrificed, it becomes less effective. Your opponent can easily then make it less effective.

Third, drop the MAT of the unit to 4 from 6 so they are not used offensively with the aura.

[Loki77515]

Third, drop the MAT of the unit to 4 from 6 so they are not used offensively with the aura.
They are actually MAT 5 right now.

Edit: The Elder is, however, MAT 6.

Huh.

[moorg]

Maybe if pulling Fury off Beasts was an ability of the Grunts.

Something like, target a friendly beast within 5 of the Grunt, remove 1 Fury from the Beast and put on the Krielstone Bearer.

That way it isn't too strong, it relies on positioning... But it also gives them something to do other than act as extra lives for the Bearer.

[hooksy67]

moorg that is perfect because we really need to be suggesting realistic and not overpowered options or we will get nothing

[theummhmmguy]

Maybe if pulling Fury off Beasts was an ability of the Grunts.

Something like, target a friendly beast within 5 of the Grunt, remove 1 Fury from the Beast and put on the Krielstone Bearer.

That way it isn't too strong, it relies on positioning... But it also gives them something to do other than act as extra lives for the Bearer.

This is quite good, though with proper positioning your warlock would never have to put anything on the stone. Unless the grunts don't add the fury they pull to the stone.

[Sevwall]

STOP!!!

The developers have pretty much blatantly stated that we aren't getting direct fury management.

So, by arguing about adding it in, you are doingnothing but wasting your time. This is not something that can happen.

Focus on other ways to make it better, but the fury stuff is not going to happen, no more than 3 point arc nodes were going to happen even though Cryx, I'm sure, feedbacked it to hell and back.

[Zombied00d]

If they're going to leave the mechanics of the unit completely alone and not allow it to pull fury or help abate frenzy or anything useful than dammit at least let the thing generate 1 fury a turn for itself.

Or pull a page from the Choir handbook and drop the unit cost to 2.

[Soylent]

If they're going to leave the mechanics of the unit completely alone and not allow it to pull fury or help abate frenzy or anything useful than dammit at least let the thing generate 1 fury a turn for itself.

Or pull a page from the Choir handbook and drop the unit cost to 2.

The difference being that the choir effects faction jacks solely where the KSB can effect all faction models.

[theummhmmguy]

STOP!!!

The developers have pretty much blatantly stated that we aren't getting direct fury management.

So, by arguing about adding it in, you are doingnothing but wasting your time. This is not something that can happen.

Focus on other ways to make it better, but the fury stuff is not going to happen, no more than 3 point arc nodes were going to happen even though Cryx, I'm sure, feedbacked it to hell and back.



Good call, I did not know they had stated what their intent was.

Though it could be why Trolls have the most 5 fury beasts in the game.

[Zombied00d]

I point to the choir because they are a unit that does NOTHING other than buff. Whereas the KSB does... nothing other than buff...

Yes, the choir only buffs the warjacks. However choir buffs are pulse effects and are independant of outside resources. Oh, and the choir has ablative wounds, unless you're running a huge number of jacks.

Without a change to how the KSB works in general, I don't really see how they can justify a unit that never sees combat, requires fury to power, clogs up the area with a medium base, and has a decreasing rate of return on its effects as being a 4/5 unit.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I want one of the following changes.

Make the KSB a straight 8" aura, maybe the SSE can give it +2" as one of his warps. Maybe replacing the continuous effect one, which is pretty cornercase. Or just a straight +2"

The other option is like the Druids countermagic. Make it 1" from any model in the unit, +1" for every model in the unit. Would make for much more strategic placing of models. It would make it more vulnerable, which could justify the unit going down to a 2/3 cost.