COnverting Minis: Where do I drawn the line?

[Alekzander]

I love Warmachine "lore", I came from the Iron Kingdoms RPG to this game after all.

I also love converting.

I would also love to convert my own Warcaster and play games with him.

My question is: Is this even possible outside a friendly casual game?

Take this as a example: What if I convert a character that has a weapon similar to the Scatter gun on his hilt and a sword as big as the sword that Magnus wields. Would judges be okay with this conversion? The model would have every single weapon from the "caster" that I am borrowing the rules, the model would also have the same base as the "donor" model.

Do you think this would be acceptable?

And what about other troops? I saw some steelhead conversions that used minis from the IK line.


What if I used Vinter models, and Magnus the Warlord rules? Do you think anyone would mind?

Thank you all.

[JTY]

Going by the strict letter of the tournament rules put out by PP; yes, it would matter and such conversions would be against the rules (weapons must be of an identical type, characters cannot be converted from other characters).

That said, I'd be happy to allow such conversions at events I run provided the player makes it clear to other players what is what, and I'd expect other players to be sensible enough to cope with conversions and hobbyist enough to want to see them.
It is afterall a large part of the hobby.

Essentially, don't expect to be allowed to use extensive conversions, but don't be afraid to ask individual TO's what they are prepared to allow.
Same goes for your opponents, don't expect, but don't be afraid to ask.

[kakita]

It's really on a case by case basis. If it's easy to recognize or between friends in a tournament I wouldn't see why not.

[Alekzander]

So the general tip is: Always ask for permission, always use the exact same weapons and gears from the models.

Is this correct?

[JTY]

For an army you plan to use in a lot of tournies, yes it's better to be prepared to play safe than to go all-out and be disapointed.
If you can manage it, do the conversions you want and have the original, unconverted model as well.

Personally, I wouldn't let tourny rules stop me doing a conversion I wanted to, but I'd ask TO's before I entered rather than have a problem on the day. That's just good sense and makes life easier for everyone involved.
I would however try and keep conversions in an army I planned to use in tournies sensible so as to avoid problems and maximise where I could use it.
But at home and at the club, when playing amongst freinds, there should be no such limits and the rules should be what the group is comfortable with.

[Mugu]

Additionally, depending on how good your freehand is, you could always paint the name of what model/warcaster your conversion is supposed to represent on the base of the model which would help clear up any confusion (in addition to the suggestions made above of having the same weapons/gear).
Mugu

[BENDER]

I reckon that as long as your opponent can tell at a glance what the model represents, go for it. I copped a lot of internet flak for using the same converted model to represent both standard and epic incarnations of a warcaster. In real life, people have been more bothered about how I got the head just right and where I sourced the parts from. :) But as others have said, have a standard model handy just incase you get a kill joy.

[TimVanBoening]

I am going to echo what every one else said, do conversions in moderation.

Vinter as eMagnus is sketchy at best because everyone knows what that model looks like, a guy standing on a fallen 'jack in a "Victory Is Mine!" pose. Have the real model standing by if you get someone who throws a fit.

Naming the models on their bases is not a bad idea. If your freehanding skills are not too bueno, get a Micron pen and just write it. Or if you have crap handwriting like me, get your girlfriend or wife to do it.

[paradogmatic]

To be honest anything I plan on doing that's not based upon the base model as per the rules will have a 'normal' alternative waiting in my bag just in case if I go to a tournament; its the price you have to pay for wanting to go beyond the traditional.

[Wishing]

Take this as a example: What if I convert a character that has a weapon similar to the Scatter gun on his hilt and a sword as big as the sword that Magnus wields. Would judges be okay with this conversion? The model would have every single weapon from the "caster" that I am borrowing the rules, the model would also have the same base as the "donor" model.


If you take the Magnus model and give it a different sword/shotgun/head/whatever, and want to play it using Magnus' rules, then that conversion would be within the approved guidelines and you would probably be ok with most organisers. However, as has been pointed out, these things are judged on a case by case basis.

[Zenassassin]

I would ask myself, "would it be legit to complain about this mini, from a gameplay perspective, or would complaining just mean the person was a whiny tool, stretching things to hurt my chances of winning?" Then convert accordingly.

I think Warmahordes is lucky in that, as opposed to other Great Wargames tournament types I could mention, I have not seen anyone act like that kind of tool before. I would rest easy in that people will be way more concerned with not seeming like jerks, or will be interested in the coolness of the mini, than in trying to tank you by complaining about the conversion to a T.O..

And it should go without saying that if your opponent has not had a problem with the mini, the T.O. shouldn't have a problem.

[PhoenixBlaze]

I personally feel that PP is far too hard on people when it comes to converting things. I know from my experiences in Games Workshop games (and tournament scenes), that they can allow for some truly mad conversions, especially with regards to Ork and Chaos armies, or even that time some guy had an Imperial Guard tank platoon, but they were all converted into variously sized land speeders. Very cool.

I have a champ that's formed from a Boomhowler Merc, with champ arms, but I remember having some issues using the model. In the end, the TO was okay with it, but I remember one or two people on these forums (well the old ones) saying tbey wouldn't allow it.

As has been said, it's a case by case situation, and you do run the chance of playing against obtuse fools or people who just can't comprehend that the model they're seeing isn't *exactly* what it should be!

[PWC]

A large part of it has to be in the context that its in, as well.

For example, if you had a unit of kossite woodsmen, and you wanted to throw in a few guys made from warhammer parts or something, I'm pretty sure no body would notice or care because those models would be part of a larger group, and identifiable as such.

So I probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid to PhoenixBlaze's model because of the context it was in.

[Jaster]

I'd be fine with almost anything that isn't obstructing the game area too badly (like, 8 spears pointed every which way so you can't fit other models near it), or has its default base size changed to be fair game, but that's just some random guys opinion. I love seeing conversions on the field, along with different paintjobs / etc of all kinds, simply because it keeps the game vivid.

Yes, from a Tournament perspective, it can have some issues (more so if you say, convert some Trollkin Champs into Kriel Warriers, clearly gonna confuse someone). But so long as people pay attention and are considerate of those issues, should be fine.

[CeltKhan]

As has been said, it's a case by case situation, and you do run the chance of playing against obtuse fools or people who just can't comprehend that the model they're seeing isn't *exactly* what it should be!

Yes, of course, because everyone who can't remember that those Chaos Warriors are really Steelheads, Sorscha is really Vlad, the Behemoth is really Beast, and those Rangers are really Widowmakers is a complete idiot. <_<

The conversion rules exist as-is for a reason. I've had a Sorscha mod (head swap and scythe switched for a sword) ruled out for a tourney because it wasn't readily identifiable, despite being a Sorscha model originally.

The problem isn't realizing that a model isn't what it appears to be; the issue is it not appearing to be what it is. An important distinction. I love conversions and kitbashes, and I consider myself a modeller more than a painter (and at least as much as I am a gamer). If it's not identifiable, it's not fun, it's not fair, and it's not legal.

[PWC]

Yes, of course, because everyone who can't remember that those Chaos Warriors are really Steelheads, Sorscha is really Vlad, the Behemoth is really Beast, and those Rangers are really Widowmakers is a complete idiot. <_<

The conversion rules exist as-is for a reason. I've had a Sorscha mod (head swap and scythe switched for a sword) ruled out for a tourney because it wasn't readily identifiable, despite being a Sorscha model originally.

The problem isn't realizing that a model isn't what it appears to be; the issue is it not appearing to be what it is. An important distinction. I love conversions and kitbashes, and I consider myself a modeller more than a painter (and at least as much as I am a gamer). If it's not identifiable, it's not fun, it's not fair, and it's not legal.

Well see thats the thing. When I say "defender", you think "cannon". If you switched out the cannon for a machine gun it stops reading as a defender, even if you used the same base model.

I find myself looking at the weapons when determining what a model does. "he has a gun he shoots things" and "he has a machine gun he shoots things a lot".

If you switched out Sorscha's scythe, which is practically half of Sorscha's identification right there, for a sword you lose the context of the model.

[Kej]

Big massive official tournaments are one story, like many have already said; however, as far as local tournaments go I would say go for it!

The beauty of this game is the info card. As long as you have it out so your opponent can see it I say there should be no problem, so long as you remind them what everything is when they ask.

I bought the eHaley model because I think it is the most beautiful warcaster model ever and I use it for both e and p versions of her. The same goes for Stryker. The card is on the table so my opponent can view it at any time and I ALWAYS tell them before hand.

On top of that I think the Lancer models are outdated and trashy looking so I use Thorn models for my lancers because it is a much more dynamic pose and I think it looks better on the table.

While those aren't "conversions" the same logic still applies.

Convert to your heart's content.

[JTY]

At the end of the day guys, official is one thing, and in big important official tournies then it's all well and good.

But in smaller/local/non-official tournies, and certainly within clubs and gaming groups, allow conversions.
A major aspect of wargaming is that two players comunicate across a table. Saying 'NO' to conversions, not explaining what is in your army before deployment, these things kinda kill the ideal.

TBH, I'd be narked beyond belief if an opponent refused to allow me to use a conversion I'd spent time over and insisted I use off-the-peg stuff or get out.

WYSIWYG is one thing, but imagination and creativity are too important to discard wholesale.

So, abide by the rulespack, but be prepared to allow for creativity as well.
This way we get the best of both worlds. Surely that's the ideal.

[Talonvor]

"WYSIWYG" stands for what? Ive seen it in Sigs could never figure it out.

[Undershoe]

What you see is what you get.

WYSIWYG

[Mod_Plarzoid]

As long as you retain the essence of the model, I say go for it. You have to take care to understand the key things that define the model and make it a unique piece; then make sure you keep those unique things.

You should also make sure the model doesn't portray a rule it doesn't have.
Example: Taking a 'Jack with a sword and making the sword twice as long. Yeah it looks cool, but opposing players may think it has Reach.

Lastly, never forget that your unique paint scheme is sometimes the best conversion of all.
---------------------------------
Personally, I keep my conversions to arm re-positioning and such. I like most of the models as they are, and I usually just need them to rank up a bit better, or whatnot.

Though I have been thinking about lengthening the barrels on my Destroyers...

[AndyFrazer]

One easy (although more expensive) way to avoid dissapointment is to bring an unconverted copy of the original model as-well-as your conversion.

If you are not allowed to use your conversion, then you can fall back on the original.

BTW... I find you get fewer problems with TOs (and PGers) with this sort of thing, than you do with pissy opponents complaining they "don't understand*" what the model is... just to warn you!

* This happened to me half way through a tournament... the models weren't even converted... they just had a non-standard paint scheme (Cygnar in brown)!

[planescapedm]

A lot of people convert weapons too. I love conversions and I love playing against them. But I still want to be able to tell your model is your model. If someone were to mod a centurion to have a lance and a gun or 2 guns or something equally ridiculous I probably would allow that in casual play but certainly not in anything more strict. People need to be able to glance at the field and immediately know what's going on. And being use to the way a model looks is helpful for that.

For any kind of tournament that had something at stake, such as a large cash prize. I would expect there to be no converted weapons and models to be easily recognizable. In a national tournament I would expect no modifications of any kind, aside from arm or stance change. The more important the event the more strict the rules should be. IMO.