Problems with menoth? Maybe my list?

[iamajeenyus024]

So yesterday we had a tournament and it was set up as follows.

first round 35 points no epic's no FA: C my list was

PKrueger
Woldwarden
Shadowhorn
Druids+overseer
Reeves- Full
Wolves-Full

Second round was 50 point epic casters/warbeasts are now allowed but this list must be made from your first nothing can change execpt paying to upgrade the woldwarden to meg.

Second list added

Gnarlhorn
Wolves UA
Whitemane
Blackclad

Third round have to still add on your last list but anything else goes. I added to that

Tharn ravagers Full
Ravagers UA
Lord of the feast
Shifting stones
Feral warpwolf

Now I thought the list was ok and I ripped through everyone at the 35 and 50 point matches. When I hit the 75 point game though I played menoth (which I've never beaten as a circle player and all the menoth people from where I am at are the best players all around the shop) He had only 3 light jack for his whole list one being an ache he had the 8 wound models you can spread the damage around too 2 shield wall units and 2 sunburst and someother shooting unit with Ekreoss.

I A D the lord of the feast into the shiftingstones gave him lighting tens and he did some mass damage to his front line. I had bad sided terran and after my Lord of the feast jump it was all down hill from there. I had the floor mopped with my army.

So any suggestions to fighting menoth overcoming the shield wall? I tried defletion to counter act the fire but it rarely works.

Any thoughts on my list? Any help will make a difference.

Lastly anybody else hate menoth? I think I hate them the most. More then Cryx and their well over powered seether.

[Bakemono]

Well, I could sugarcoat it but you never had a chance. It isn't Menoth that is the problem. You didn't build very good lists. You use far too many infantry and not enough important backbone models. The Circle isn't about infantry first. We are a Warbeast faction. Effective lists for us start with lots of Warbeasts and infantry in key support roles.

To put this in context, you didn't add the most important models to your list until the third round. You should have had a Feral Warpwolf in the first round. I feel the same about the LOTF. I cannot put into words how uncompetitive your first round list was setup.

[blueskin]

Lord of the Feast is great for taking out that damn choir. You can often aim at a jack, put him base to base behind the 'jack and just chop away. Corpse tokens can then be used to start denting the 'jack. Best 3 pts you ever spent! :)

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

iamajeenyus024: So any suggestions to fighting menoth overcoming the shield wall? I tried defletion to counter act the fire but it rarely works.

A couple helpful suggestions: drop the reeves vs this opponent and add a Pureblood (pow 14 spray vs shield wall equals awesome :D and his animus is great vs protectorate).

A Feral is a must and in this list works great with lightning tendrils on it (he can make up to 14 attacks 6PS15/17 1PS14/16 and 7 electro leaps).

Another couple great additions would be Tharn Bloodweavers instead of the Wolves of orboros (also great target with lightning tenrils). They'll do awesome with blood burst/blood spiller/dispel and will help alot vs Menoth.

Another good matchup IMHO are the wolf riders with or w/o lightning tendrils. Be sure to sick them on their prey, hit the bastions or temple flame guard, and as long as they are preyed they should all be dead (they can unleash up to 20 attacks with lightning tenrils 5assault/5charge/5electro leap/5 mount).

The ravagers should theoretically do a lot of these same jobs, but menoth can deny them the corpse tokens with different abilities so they aren't as reliable as the ones I mentioned. Also I find the ravagers die real fast, even faster than the wolf riders.

Also I would use the mobility of the LOTF and his inherint defenses to try to get to some of the back support units and then a run on his caster once you have a lot of corpse tokens.

Hope that helps :D

[Magx]

While I agree with most what you said, can you explain to me how the hell




A Feral is a must and in this list works great with lightning tendrils on it (he can make up to 14 attacks 6PS15/17 1PS14/16 and 7 electro leaps).



?

14 attacks ? I see 12, not 14

First 3 attack, 3 lightning Tendrils
second attack, another one
third attack, another on
fourth attack, another one

3+3+2+2+2=12

and btw, a Pureblood Warpwolf is nuts with Ghostly, tendrils and 360 view... as a Lord of the Feast.

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

Magx:

If you don't charge.

Feral has 3 initial attacks and 4 fury = 7 possible attacks
You leap after each successful attack so...

7 x 2 = 14

I never said he was charging, just that this was his maximum output with the spell.

I also didn't mention the probability, but vs most of menoth you should be hitting on a 6 or under, 4 vs the Bastions. The highest defense in melee will probably be 15 if you are facing daughters of the flame, but the OP didn't mention them. 16 def if you are fighting Amon, but OP stated EKreoss. :D

[Magx]

I neverd taked about charging and still if he doesn't charge, same stats apply here:

if you don't charge, you still force him so you place a fury but you have 3 initials attacks

3 initial attacks (fury) + 3 tendrils
additinnal attack (fury) + tendrils
addtionnal attack (fury) + tendrils
additionnal (fury) + tendrils

still twelve...

I still think this is the maximum output damage.. still nothing to cough at though! ;)

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

Combat Actions
A model can use its action to make a combat action if it did not use its normal movement to run. A combat action lets a model make attacks. A normal attack is an attack with a weapon that is not a special attack. A model making a combat action chooses one of the following options:

? A model can make one normal melee attack with each of its melee weapons. These attacks are called initial melee attacks. A model making more than one attack can divide them among any eligible targets.
-Page 20 Hordes MK2 Rules PDF-



Fury & Forcing
A warbeast is a primal engine of rage that reaches its full potential only when under the control of a model with the Fury Manipulation ability. A warbeast can be forced only while in its controller?s control area, but it does not need to be in its controller?s line of sight to be forced. When a warbeast is forced, declare the desired effect and place 1 fury point on it. This fury point does not come from the warlock. A warbeast can be forced several times during its activation, but it can never have a fury point total higher than its current FURY. If a warbeast?s current FURY is reduced for any reason, immediately remove excess fury points. A warbeast cannot be forced if the fury point gained would cause it to exceed its current FURY. Wild warbeasts cannot be forced. Fury points remain on warbeasts until removed by leaching, reaving, or a special rule.

Additional Attack
During its activation, a warbeast can be forced to make additional melee or ranged attacks as part of its combat action (see ?Combat Actions,? p. XXX). It can make one
additional attack each time it is forced.
-Page 40 Hordes MK2 Rules PDF-

Feral uses its action to make a combat action which will be three melee attacks (1 initial with each of its melee weapons).

Then the feral (if it is within its casters control range) may be forced to make ADDITIONAL ATTACKS. One fury is placed on it for each ADDITIONAL ATTACK it makes. It may be forced up to its Fury stat (4). SO...

Combat Action = 1 Melee Attack w/each weapon = 3 INITIAL ATTACKS

Each successful attack generates a leap = 3 LEAPS

Buy up to 4 ADDITIONAL ATTACKS using Fury: 1 Melee Attack w/any one weapon for each fury spent = 4 ADDITIONAL ATTACKS

Each successful attack generates a leap = 4 LEAPS

3 + 3 + 4 + 4 = 14

Reading the Rules is FUN!!!! :D

[Magx]

I thought to make an attack with a Warbeast ( any attack) you had to force the warbeast... I did not know that you hadn't to force him for a first attack... at least, it's what I understood of what you pasted..

Sorry, but english is NOT my first language so, sometimes I stick on something....

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

Yes, any model can normally use its action to make a ranged attack, melee attack or special action (such as repair). When you make a melee attack with your action, you can make one initial attack with each melee weapon you possess or make a single special attack with a melee weapon (such as the argus's combo bite). When a warbeast or warjack does this it does not need to be forced or spend a focus. They essentially do this for "free" just like units, solos and warcasters/warlocks.

Hopefully that helps clear things up. No problem about the language barrier. If you have some time I would advise reading through the rule book again (we all benefit from this time to time). Not sure if it is released in mulitple languages for our non-English speaking friends :D

[Bakemono]

I thought to make an attack with a Warbeast ( any attack) you had to force the warbeast... I did not know that you hadn't to force him for a first attack... at least, it's what I understood of what you pasted..

Sorry, but english is NOT my first language so, sometimes I stick on something....

So let me get this straight... you don't know one of the basic game mechanics and you are giving people advice in various threads and giving your educated opinion on which models/units are good?

[Runesong]

So let me get this straight... you don't know one of the basic game mechanics and you are giving people advice in various threads and giving your educated opinion on which models/units are good?

Dude, ease up. If he's been able to play half-decently with the kind of handicap following the rule as he used to understand it would give him, that says something. Either way, getting on his case for a language-barrier caused misunderstanding is not helpful.

[Bakemono]

Dude, ease up. If he's been able to play half-decently with the kind of handicap following the rule as he used to understand it would give him, that says something. Either way, getting on his case for a language-barrier caused misunderstanding is not helpful.


I'm not getting on his case due to the language barrier. That isn't the issue. He is giving people advice when it is clear he hasn't been playing this game very long (or remotely correctly). There is no universe in which that is a good idea. I don't give advice which I'm not qualified to give. I don't think other people should be doing it either.

[Runesong]

Anyone looking for advice here isn't going to be taking his word, (or yours or mine,) alone. They're going to be looking at the discussions, meaning the more experienced players can temper the less experienced ones. I appreciate that you don't want to give advice you're not qualified for, and that gives your opinions on the game more weight than they'd have if you didn't care. I don't think that bars Magx from giving his own opinions . . . which, again, will be tempered by those of the more experienced players if there are misunderstandings, as happened here.

------


As for fighting against Menoth, if you're facing a lot of fire, the Druids+UA aren't bad. Their potential immunity to fire can let them tie up things like the Holy Zealots safely, though you may be sacrificing them as a speedbump so you can get more damage-dealing models in behind them.

For Shield Wall, The Lord of the Feast won't get a back-strike bonus if he manages to teleport into their back arcs with bird tricks, but his attacks and damage will then originate there, which gets around Shield Wall and may let him kill even more.

If you want to try other casters, Mohsar's Crevasse is limited by its range, but if you can hit something small behind the Shield Walled unit, the spray originates from the model boxed by the spell, meaning the resulting spray will originate in the back arc and ignore SW again. Crevasse's effect is not limited to enemy models, so you can run in something of your own to sacrifice to it in order to get good positioning (just watch out for free strikes,) and it's a cost 3 spell, meaning it can be cast from your Warden or the Megalith, leaving your caster out of danger.

You indicated that terrain was a problem for you. You might try casters that can make their own, like Baldur.

Could you elaborate more on what your specific difficulties were? How was your opponent running his troops, how did he use them? Were you hanging back with your army, or pressing the attack? Which models of his killed what models of yours, and what models of yours did you send against his? More details about how that battle went would help us give you more relevant advice.

[Mutton]

Runesong, the issue is that a newer player looking at the forums doesn't know who is a good player and who isn't, so they don't know who to trust. If you clearly don't understand basic parts of the game, you shouldn't be giving advice. I wouldn't ask an average 4th grader to do my taxes now would I?

That said, you're going to need to alter your list a lot. First off, you've got no real heavy hitters in the first version. I'd drop the Reeves and the Shadowhorn, get a Feral. I'm also a fan of the Pureblood, so you COULD drop the WoO for it. If you do, then you've got 4pts left to spend, I'd go maybe Blackclad and Shifting Stones. If you want to keep the WoO, then GET THE UA. I'd then pick up either a Gorax or a Woldwyrd as your third beast.

So you've got either
pKruegar
Woldwarden
Feral
Gorax/Woldwyrd
WoO + UA
Druids + UA

OR

pKruegar
Feral
Pureblood
Woldwarden
Druids + UA
Blackclad
Shifting Stones

Okay, now at 50pts we're upgrading the Woldwarden to Megalith; his animus does horrible things to 'jack heavy Menoth as well, and he's just worth the points. So that's 2 out of 15pts down. Really, these are just points to play around with to shore up your lists. If you don't have a blackclad and shifting stones yet, grab them here. Bloodtrackers/weavers are nice to have and the Bloodweaves can drop that damn Defender's Ward. Woldstalkers are great for kicking off Enliven early if he no spells as well.

[blueskin]

Mix Master Gilgamesh:


Another good matchup IMHO are the wolf riders with or w/o lightning tendrils. Be sure to sick them on their prey, hit the bastions or temple flame guard, and as long as they are preyed they should all be dead (they can unleash up to 20 attacks with lightning tenrils 5assault/5charge/5electro leap/5 mount).

Hrm... are you positive? Lightning tendrils affect melee weapons, so I don't think you'll get any Electro leaps on the assault attack. (The assault is a ranged attack made before the charge attack, remember?) Or?

[Iceman8352]

Mix Master Gilgamesh:



Hrm... are you positive? Lightning tendrils affect melee weapons, so I don't think you'll get any Electro leaps on the assault attack. (The assault is a ranged attack made before the charge attack, remember?) Or?

You won't get the Electo Leap on the assault attacks, but you will on your actual charge attack provided you make it into melee.

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

When the wolf riders assault they make a ranged attack vs their charge target, so that would be 5 attacks for a full unit. These attacks are not affected by lightning tendrils.

As long as they engaged their charge target at the end of their movement (before the assault attack), they are allowed to make their charge attack vs their charge target if it didn't die from the assault. If it did die from the assault, they are still allowed their initial melee attack against another model in their melee range. (There will be up to 5 melee attacks from a full unit).

These initial melee attacks are with their melee weapons which are affected by lightning tendrils. On successful melee attack rolls, an electro leap is generated which can target a model w/in 4" of the model hit ignoring the attacking model. This will be up to 5 more attacks from a full unit.

The riders are then allowed to make an initial attack with their wolf mount weapon due to the rules for light cavalry. This will be up to 5 more attacks from a full unit. These attacks are not effected by lightning tendrils.

5 assault attacks
5 charge/initial melee attacks
5 electro leaps (from initial melee attacks)
5 mount attacks

= 20 potential attacks

Wolf riders on their own are awesome, but lightning tendrils is just gravy :p