Best Hardcore Caster

[FC17]

Name says it all. I was just curious what the community as a whole thought our best way was at winning a 50pt hardcore tournament.

[Mootaz]

eSeverius or Kreoss would be my choice.

[paradox]

I'm taking epic Sevy to our Hardcore in a few weeks.

[coolwhip1]

I'd recommend Epic Kreoss. I used him at GenCon in Hardcore two years ago and he performed quite well. I only lost two of my six games; one to a kid who ran a Kruger lightning spam list who hid Kruger 6" from his table edge and the other to an epic Vlad list. EKreoss has a decent array of spells that provide offensive as well as defensive options. He's also got a a good offensive stat line that is paramount in a strictly caster kill environment, in addition to the ability to slam models which is always useful to have. His feat is also one of the more powerful in the game; two POW-19 auto-hitting from the Avatar's sword, yes please! Though, Kreoss' prime version offers more in the way of shutting enemy magic down and his feat is still amazing.

I would also suggest the Testament of Menoth. Though he does lend himself to infantry heavy armies, there's nothing wrong with having a ten man unit of Zealots for no other reason than to provide souls. The Testament does not provide much in the way of support for his army, but his primary purpose is to set up the caster kill and his feat is perfect for this. However, if you do run him, you will want to run a full five Vengers. They will be the best for achieving the caster kill on the Testament's feat turn.




Edit - wow my spelling is awful...

[Mattho2k3]

pKreoss then eSevy

[der13manner]

I'm planning to give Reznik a try at Gencon this year. It might not be the 'best' caster, but it's the one I play the best and am most familiar with. I think that's far more important than the best caster.

[whitekong]

I'm planning to give Reznik a try at Gen con this year. It might not be the 'best' caster, but it's the one I play the best and am most familiar with. I think that's far more important than the best caster.
Qft, my experience in hardcore at gen-con last year was a blast. But you defiantly want to run a caster you are comfortable with, otherwise the games can be more stressful than fun.

[Invader Larb]

Reznik is actually very good against Hordes. His feat can easily spell death to a Warlock. In the last tournament I played in, I ran him with a Reckoner and Vanquisher. When the enemy warlock got in my control area I asked myself as a I always do, "Can I get a lane to charge with EoD Reznik?" The answer was no. So I popped my feat cleaning the table of all fury,, and then the Vanquisher and Reckoner shot the enemy caster to death with some fire for insurance if the assassination failed.

In the past I used eKreoss because Castigate can shut down a lot of assassination vectors, especially in MKI. His feat is also fantastic because it gives more attacks but actually saves you time because you do not need to make any attack rolls!

[gearloop]

Regardless of the caster, remember it's absolutely essential to have some element of denial in a HC list.

Every HC list is built around an aggressive offensive strategy. Typically if you allow your opponent to play out this strategy then your chances of winning are severely diminished.

Obviously the primary source of denial can come from feats (hence the populuarity of Kreoss's offensive and denial based feat).

For this reason, Kreoss, Harby, Sevvy, and Reznik are at the top of my list. Reznik is good in theory but keeps failing me, so he's off the island for now.

The other form of denial is to be so aggressive that you actually kill most of your opponents army before they get to use it. Dennying them their offense and the shear number of attacks it takes to win out.

Kreoss2, Feora, Feora2, and Amon come to mind here. Amon offers almost 0 strategic denial though...

The last form of denial comes from strategic denial. This is either spell based or list build based.
Here we have Kreoss2 and Sevvy2.

Add to these considerations the absolute need to protect your caster (either through stats or tactics) and the fact that at least 75% of your models need to be able to under some condition severely harm the enemy caster) and you've got your template in place to analyze the theoretical effectiveness of any hardcore list.

In analyzing a list, all other things being equal, pick the list that has the least meta behind it and the highest chance of causing your opponent to forget things when planning their turn (i.e. enliven, stealth, safe passage, immunity to free strikes, debuffs, impediments to movement, etc.) These can easily frustrate an opponent, take up clock time, and cause serious game deciding mistakes.

[Cleveland]

one of the Kreoss variants would be my guess...I would lean more toward pKreoss, but eKreoss and his feat turn can be utterly devastating...

[haunter1029]

Kreoss, Esevy, Reznik, and Ekreoss. In that order. Both Feora's would have been in the mix with MKI but not MKII because of infantry light.

[Garth]

Kreoss, Esevy, Reznik, and Ekreoss. In that order. Both Feora's would have been in the mix with MKI but not MKII because of infantry light.

I can really understand with Kreoss and E-Severius. Reznik could be ok, too. But why E-Kreoss ? An E-Kreoss army is much too slow.
I could imagine a Testament Infantry-list before I take E-Kreoss...

[gearloop]

I can really understand with Kreoss and E-Severius. Reznik could be ok, too. But why E-Kreoss ? An E-Kreoss army is much too slow.
I could imagine a Testament Infantry-list before I take E-Kreoss...

A Kreoss2 Exemplar army is slow, but that's not the only eKreoss army. In fact, most of the hardcore MKI Kreoss2 armies I have seen ARE exemplar armies and I believe them to be a bit too uni-dimensional for good competetive play. A well balanced Kreoss2 army can easily be one of our front-runners for hardcore.

The challenge is working in a strong denial aspect so as to disallow your opponents offensive strategy. Kreoss2 doesn't have a feat that does this and it's difficult to work into the army build other than our typical line denial (safe passage, GD, etc.)

As to the topic of speed... Why does a Hardcore army have to be fast? You can fight a Hardcore battle from the back right corner of your own deployment zone if you'd like (I'm not saying I encourage this).

I've seen lots of players just trudge into an impervious brick of death when it's completely unnecessary. There are no scenarios, so you're main objective is to prevent your opponent from playing their game. Speed is one way around this, but not the only way, and a Hardcore army does not HAVE to be "fast". Although it helps to have a unit or two with good "threat range".

[Soulblighter]

I wouldnt bother with eKreoss in hardcore. He doesnt really bring anything to the table that our other casters dont do better. And hes fairly weak in the assassination department which is how most hardcore games seem to end. Definitely think Kreoss and eSevy are much stronger choices.

[paradox]

It depends what you want to achieve.

If you want the Vanquisher award, you'll want a solid list that can attrition or assassinate and have plenty of denial.

If you want to win the Executioner award, you'll want a list that puts out damage. Assassination potential isn't necessary, but the ability to fight any opponent is. And lots of caster protection.

If you want the Mage Hunter award you'll need a fast assassination list. Durability isn't important, but redundancy an tricks are.

If you want Master Craftsman, start painting now! And pick cool looking models! ;)

HARDCORE can be played different ways, and what your opponents goal is could affect the game. And only one award requires you to win all your game. Another award only really requires you win one game. The other two you can lose every game but still win.

[gearloop]

Hopefully the goal in any hardcore tournament is to win out. With the exception of several great painters I know who enter to go for best painted.

The Mage Hunter award is really a crap shoot now. Without turn 1 CK potential, it's really as much up to how fast your opponent resolves their first turn. Then, IF they made a big mistake, you'll see double renegade or eCaine pull off a few 4-5 minute kills.

Executioner has often been nearly won by the winner with the exception that most HC tournaments were won by eMorghoul last year. He hardly killed anything but the caster. Players like Z (well he's the only one I know of) will build an army who's win condition is to destroy their opponents whole army. Then if they lose a game, they'll turn to VP's.
As was the case in last years Gencon hardcore though, I was far in the lead on VP's then lost with very few VP's in the finals to Watts (eMorg). The second in the running scored a good 20 more than me in the final game and that's that, he took it.

Point being, it's a good strategy to go for then win, then executioner as a default strat because with only one loss you'll have a good chance at trumping those who succumb to quick assassination.

I would disagree that you can win Most VP's without winning a game. 5 points per caster kill x 5 rounds is 25 VP's. An insurmountable amount of VP's considering the avg. per game for the winners tends to be around 25 (we'll see what the avg's are for MKII).


As to the Kreoss2 comments above about "not bringing anything to the table", I couldn't disagree more. I guess that's just different Meta's though. eSevvy is not even in my list of HC casters because he's FAR to predictable and doesn't have the durability to withstand desperate assasination runs (which do win games and cause upsets. A lot.)

[paradox]

Hopefully the goal in any hardcore tournament is to win out.
Why do you feel it should be? Why can't I go in TRYING to win any of the others?

I've seen Typhon turn 1 and turn 2 kills pretty regular. And SOMEONE will win it, so if no one is trying....

Someone will also win Executioner. So if you go in planning only mass carnage...Most HARDCOREs I have seen/run DO NOT have the same Vanquisher and Executioner. You'd be suprised. In fact, I've seen it work, at the 1st one I ran. The player liked the Executioner medal we had and made a plan to win it...and did!

Painting, well, that takes time and talent. So it depends on where you are compared to the field.

[gearloop]

I've seen some that pine for fastest kill or VP's, but the very nature of the format (and the feel of the actual event) is geared towards winning every game. Most players at the event are trying to win as many games as possible.

There may be a few who get their rocks off by trying fastest kill every game, but if the situation doesn't present itself and there's already a 43 second kill?? You try to win!

If your going for best painted and your army looks awesome? You're trying to win!

If your trying to kill EVERYTHING on the board and going for VP's? Well the most valuable target is the enemy caster and.... You're trying to win!

BTW, how is Typhon killing Player 1 Turn 1?? Haven't caught that trick yet.
It must be Turn 1 Player 2. Entirely possible but will NEVER come close turn 1 times and will always have the random variable of how long it took Player 1 to complete their turn. Rendering the occurrences situational, and the results varying widely.

[paradox]

Most Fastest kills I've encounterd are in the 10-20 min mark. Some legendary examples aside, a turn 2 kill has every chance of getting the prize.

I'm sure everyone tries to win. But after the 1st game 1/2 the players aren't going to get Vanquisher that day. Having a plan helps. I know quite a few players (including DC) who self-admittedly love annihilating the enemy over a caster kill. Will they take that win? Sure. But they love wiping stuff off the table bit by bit. People like that can happily play for both goals. But if you lose one game, you still have every chance at Executioner. Executioner wins are sneaky like that, because almost no one is paying attention to kill totals during the event.

Don't take my word for it. Try it some time. Of course you want to win every game, but teh way you approach it can be very different depending on your goal. In fact, you don't need to caster kill to win Executioner. Killing everything but the caster will normally get you there just as well, if not better. Caster kills leave other models alive and unaccounted for. ;)

[gearloop]

For MKI, every single hardcore event I've played in had a caster kill in the first minute or so of the game. Never heard of a turn 2 winner.

I agree with you that after a loss it's obviously a fun goal to go for annihilating the enemies army. You'd have to agree though that winning is the best strategy here. And if you're not playing an assassination list (aside from eMorghoul and Coven back in the day, these never win HC events) then it follows that once you've realized your win condition, you can clean house, then make the kill.
That's mostly why with eHaley last year I had the VP lead by a large margin going into the finals. The Executioner winner made up about 12 Vp's on me in the last game to win by 4 VP's. That's quite a few VP difference and had I not been playing against eMorg, I surely would have held out.

In summary, I think it shakes down this way... If you're playing to win with an assasination list, your potential prizes are Vanquisher or Mage Hunter. If your playing to win with a versatile/domination list, then you've got a solid chance at winning either Vanquisher or Executioner.

[Soylent]

Most Fastest kills I've encounterd are in the 10-20 min mark. Some legendary examples aside, a turn 2 kill has every chance of getting the prize.

I'm sure everyone tries to win. But after the 1st game 1/2 the players aren't going to get Vanquisher that day. Having a plan helps. I know quite a few players (including DC) who self-admittedly love annihilating the enemy over a caster kill. Will they take that win? Sure. But they love wiping stuff off the table bit by bit. People like that can happily play for both goals. But if you lose one game, you still have every chance at Executioner. Executioner wins are sneaky like that, because almost no one is paying attention to kill totals during the event.

Don't take my word for it. Try it some time. Of course you want to win every game, but teh way you approach it can be very different depending on your goal. In fact, you don't need to caster kill to win Executioner. Killing everything but the caster will normally get you there just as well, if not better. Caster kills leave other models alive and unaccounted for. ;)


The problem is that the longer the game goes the more chance of loosing the game. If you're trying for the VP route then each turn you go without getting a caster kill you're giving your opponent a chance to pull out a win which can rob you of VPs. For the fastest caster kill, it has almost always been due to player mistake which is even more unreliable than farming VPs. The only time I'd try to collect more VPs would be to activate my caster kill models after everything else...but in 7 minute turns I'll take my chances on going for the win.

[gearloop]

The problem is that the longer the game goes the more chance of loosing the game. If you're trying for the VP route then each turn you go without getting a caster kill you're giving your opponent a chance to pull out a win which can rob you of VPs. For the fastest caster kill, it has almost always been due to player mistake which is even more unreliable than farming VPs. The only time I'd try to collect more VPs would be to activate my caster kill models after everything else...but in 7 minute turns I'll take my chances on going for the win.

Ah, see, there it is. That's a statement that pre-supposes the fact that you PREFER to win.
I know that's why YOU play HC Soylent.

Good conversation here though and I'm enjoying it.

[Soylent]

I've been tossing around a few ideas on who I'll take and it hasn't been an easy choice. Right now I've been leaning towards both Feora 1 & 2 and Kreoss 1 & 2. They all have strong feats, can finish the job themselves and are fairly survivable. Reznik would be up there as well it's just he and I haven't clicked. eSevy is up there as well but I've seen too much bad terrain to rely on Awareness.

[paradox]

Ah, see, there it is. That's a statement that pre-supposes the fact that you PREFER to win.
I know that's why YOU play HC Soylent.

Good conversation here though and I'm enjoying it.
:shrug: I think it is possible to have the goal of winning Executioner be your top priority and still play to win. They are not mutually exclusive. Same with Mage Hunter.

Point is: the best caster for Hardcore depends on your goals. If Vanquisher is your top priority, you will probably have a different list and play differently than someone who want another award more.