How to kill Mercs...

[blueskin]

How do we deal with Mercs? Ashlynn for an instance who has an insane DEF. Or Bart and Gorten who blast things up like there's no tomorrow? And Magnus?

Ashlynn - I'm thinking pKruger and auto-hitting her with bouncing lightning. Or Kromac and cutting away as usual. A couple of hits should be enough.

Bart - Baldur? Solid ground is a good enough reason maybe.

Gorten - Baldur? See above.

Magnus - I have no clue...


Fill me in, please! :)

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

I've killed Ashlynn by slamming things into her (even your own models works) and by using the Woldwyrd (if she has an upkeep on her she is in a lot of trouble).

I haven't really had a lot of troubles with the others.

[blueskin]

Well, what did you use and how did you play it? I haven't played against Gorten but he seem to be a royal pain in the bottom on the feat round - especially in scenario play.

[Wikd1]

I played against Magnus last night and hand no problem dealing with him and was using Baldur. Baldur would up keep solid ground for the whole game while following his beasts. And when Baldur got close enough to Magnus cast earth spikes and got a crit hit on Magnus and his renagade body guard were knocked down. Once Magnus was down I charged in my Feral wolf and had a meaty snack. Game over

[blueskin]

Lists please! :) I would like to hear more details. What do I need to keep in mind and watch out for?

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

Against Ashlynn, if she has quicken or another upkeep on her, use two Woldwyrds. She is Def17 (19 with quicken) so you will need a 13. Lucky you, Woldwyrds have Purgation, so you can risk it on 3 dice or boost to hit and then boost the damage (pow10+4d6). If she isn't camping focus, the two wyrds should be able to cripple her pretty good for someone else to finish her off (such as a beast with wild aggression or +2mat from Primal or Bounding and then boost).

Another in faction trick you can do is charge her with the Woldwatcher for 1 of his fury and take your two initial attacks. If you damage great, if not, no worries. After this decide if you want to reduce damage or ignore knockdown and force for either his animus on himself or stone form. Then slam him through Ashlynn with the Gnarlhorn. The Woldwatcher should fly through her, she is knocked down and takes collateral and then the Gnarlhorn can "follow up" and can stop at Ashlynn with 4 fury to buy attacks that auto hit. Put Primal or a strength boost on him if you are really worried.

Use a Shadowhorn or Feral, Pureblood, Woldwarden to Double hand throw a large based easy to hit model such as a Nomad at her. Since you can boost to hit and the throw uses his Mat, you should do fairly well. Also at most it can scatter 3" (but it can't scatter more than half the distance between her and the model being thrown). If she has a shield guard next to her, feel free to target it and you'll most likely get her anyways, also get point blank so you know it can't scatter very fall at all.

Finally never directly assault her on her feat turn, our power attacks are so so good, try and do it outside that feat turn or do a tricky power attack trick. Thats my opinion :D

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

Also if you want lists, you might want to put points level and scenario or just caster kill. :D

[blueskin]

Hehe, thanx a lot Mix Master. :) It's 35 pts Steamroller scenario.

That was actually really helpful. The slam-the-watcher trick I came to think of during a game in mkII and it should work really well now with the mkII Gnarlhorn. A question though - since I've never slammed a small-based model: What happens if I put a Shifting Stone in front of her and slam that one? Will it still pass over her? Three slam targets for 2 pts is a treat, plus I don't have to be that guy people look at all strange like "look, there goes that guy who're making lists with the Woldwatcher". ;)

Throwing things is great fun. Throwing things with MAT is even more fun. Is this something the Shadowhorn does or is it for all the two-handed throwers out there? Knowing that would probably have won me my last league game a turn earlier. :)

Well, asking for a bit of a joke. I really think everyone should try to figure out their own, and then get some comments. List building is part of the game.

I'll make a few and get back to you.

Again, thanks Master. May the Force be with you. :D

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

A slammed model contacting a model with the same size base or larger will stop. A slammed model contacting a smaller base will inflict knockdown and a collateral damage roll and will continue to move past it.

Also about the Shifting Stones:


Immobile - This model has no movement or action and cannot be knocked down or moved. Its front arc extends to 360°. It has no melee range, cannot engage, and is automatically hit by melee attacks.

If you slam them you'll just kill them. Another more expensive target you can use is Megalith. He can't be knocked down and should definitely survive. You'll need a 2 if you are in his back arc to hit him with the slam.

If you are running Baldur you could even have Megalith put stone skin on himself after he charged the caster before he made the charge attack. Also against high defense casters, Megalith may be a good way to go. Boost his charge attack and hopefully put weight of stone on them :D

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

Throws:
Single Hand. Declare and Force. Make melee attack. Make strength check: 1d6+S tie goes to attacker. Choose a point. Model is thrown to that point or a point along the same line at 1/2 the thrower's current strength if chosen point is beyond that distance. Scatters d3" (but no more than 1/2 the distance between the thrown model and the original targeted point.)

Double Hand. Same as above except: Attacker rolls 2d6 for strength check vs defenders 1d6. Can target a model and make a boostable melee attack against them. Hits hit, otherwise scatters from chosen point as stated above.

Also distances are measured from the base of the model being thrown and you can only throw it at a point in your front arc :D

[blueskin]

Great, thanx! You're giving me some great advice. I take it the Wyrd must be solid for the reasons you mentioned earlier, but it should be a ok slam target as well. It's fast, easy to hit, fairly heavily ARMed and can't be knocked down. If Ashlynn survives there's always the magical supression thing.

Krueger
Megalith
Feral
Woldwyrd
Shifting Stones
Lord of the Feast
Druids + ua

Well, what do you say? :)

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

Good call about the Wyrd being a good slam target. I always forget he has Steady. He will be def 11 in the back and arm 16 and arcane supression would be useful if the small based caster survives. Also the wyrd is faster than the models I listed.

You won't be able to pull off the slam trick so easily with the Feral, but it isn't impossible. If you throw Lightning Tendrils on the Feral you may have reach after the slam to get to the now knocked down caster. The slam may not go far enough if you roll a 1 and then "least disturbance" may move the caster farther away. Same thing if you two hand throw the Wyrd.

The Gnarlhorn does the slamming best due to his abilities. Pow 15 on slams (not 100% sure if that also affects the collateral damage or if they will be pow11). Slams for free. Has follow up and Grandslam:


Follow Up - When this model slams an enemy model, immediately after the slam is resolved this model can advance directly toward the slammed model up to the distance the slammed model was moved.
Grand Slam - This model can make power attack slams without spending focus or being forced. Models slammed by this model are moved an additional 2˝.

[blueskin]

Mix Master:

The Wyrd has a higher speed but then it can't charge, so I guess it's slower in a sense.

I never thought I'd make a list without a Feral, but here we go:

Krueger
Megalith
Gnarlhorn
Woldwyrd
Shifting Stones
Lord of the Feast
Druids + ua
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew

weird huh? :)

In a way it feels kind of risky, like I build my whole strategy on making a slam. Hopefully there is enough synergy between things to give him a headache even if I can't find that slam dunk opportunity.

Maybe I should just go with Kromac and try to hit her 16 times with those axes... :)

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

I'm under the impression Wyrds can charge. They are gunfighters and there is no rule on their card that says they can't...

About your lists, I've not brought Ferals and won, but its normally at the 35pt level. Higher than that I can almost always find room for them.

How about:

Krueger +5
Woldwarden 9
Gnarlhorn 8
Woldwyrd 5
Shifting Stones 2
Lord of the Feast 4
Druids 7
Bloodweavers 5

OR Drop those Weavers and Lord of the Feast to take a FERAL! Ta-da.
Personally I think your list over has plenty of anti-infantry so unless you are seeing infantry machine you don't really need a Mega/warden AND LotF and Druids. Thoughts with Kromac might be:

Kromac +4
Feral 9
Woldwarden 9
Gnarlhorn 8
Woldwyrd 5
10 Bloodtrackers 8

-or-drop Bloodtrackers to 6 girls and add shifting stones and swamp gobbers or drop Bloodtrackers to take min wolves orboros with UA and shifting stones or min wolves with Lord of the Feast.

(Those last 8 points are mainly attempting to set off warpath).

[blueskin]

Ok, I really like the first list. I think I'm going to give it a shot. Slamming a Wyrd 3-8" should be a way of getting Ashlynn to lay down. After that Krueger can zap away if the Gnarl is out of reach.

I hope I can play a few games this weekend...

Btw,
I wonder if someone has actually thrown the Lord against a suitable unit. If he stands up forfeiting movement he can chop down everything he can reach and then fire the birdie and continue the slaughter. Would that work?


Well, how do we deal with Gorten in scenario play. His feat is insane and he's a tough to kill little bastard. I'm thinking Kromac here, there doesn't seem to be many things he can't dismember.

Kromac
Megalith
Feral
Wyrd
Druids
Shifting
Lord of the Feast
Swamp Gobbers

Hrm....? :)

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

Kromac is good against Gorten simply if you can start getting Gorten in or near a Rift (HE IS SO SLOW).

Also Feral is lots of win against Gorten. If you can clear the way to him with the Krueger list (with the Feral switched in), slap Lightning Tendrils on him and the Gnarlhorns animus. The Feral can now warp for strength and has a threat of 13" (outside of Gortens Feat if he dropped it). Also Druids don't care about RAT :p

[blueskin]

Ok, two lists against Ashlynn and Gorten please! I can't make up my mind. I think I prefer Kromac and Baldur, but I honestly don't know.

:(

[Bakemono]

On the competitive level this is really what you have to decide:

List-1: Baldur or Kromac (chosen on the basis of playstyle)
List-2: eKaya (brought out for "gun line" lists)

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

If its still the 35pt steamroller I might try this out:

Baldur +6
Megalith 11
Woldwarden 9
Gnarlhorn 8
2Woldwyrds 10
Totem Hunter 3

I really couldn't decide what to do with the last 3 points. I was thinking maybe of putting in some shifting stones. You have 3 heavies to take out opposing heavies and/or trample through infantry. Also you could drop a wyrd and the Totem hunter to have 8 points to play with for a unit. If you are a huge fan of the druids maybe change it up to this:

Baldur +6
Megalith 11
Pureblood 9
Shadowhorn 7
Woldwyrd 5
Druids w/UA 9

[blueskin]

Bakemono: I feel I haven't really worked out a playstyle with Kromac yet - I wait for the opportunity to arise and then I jump the caster with Kromac. I usually move around, playing it safe and take out the opposing heavies one by one. Baldur suits me well. What styles of play are you thinking of. Kromac is pretty much shoving stuff down the opponents throat, right? Baldur works well against a lot of things and forests and Solid ground neuters some shooty lists as well.

Mix Master: I only have one wyrd an, yes, I'm truly a big fan of the druids. What I worry about is not having LotF against a large unit of Steelhead Halberdiers. And what to do with the infantry? (If he brings any that is.)

[Mix Master Gilgamesh]

@Blueskin

Ok, with those concerns in mind, what about this?

Baldur +6
Woldwarden 9
Pureblood 9
Shadowhorn 7
Druids w/UA 9
Lord of the Feast 4
Shifting Stones 2
1pt Filler/Swamp Gobbers 1

I don't think you'll have to worry about a unit too much though if you do decide on the pureblood and woldwyrd along with at least one Earthspikes. (Thats kind of over kill, but if you must have the Lord, perhaps the above will help :D)

You could also go with this:

Baldur +6
Woldwarden 9
Pureblood 9
Gorax 4
Woldwyrd 5
Druids w/UA 9
Lord of the Feast 4
1pt Filler/Swamp Gobbers 1

[Bakemono]

Bakemono: I feel I haven't really worked out a playstyle with Kromac yet - I wait for the opportunity to arise and then I jump the caster with Kromac. I usually move around, playing it safe and take out the opposing heavies one by one. Baldur suits me well. What styles of play are you thinking of. Kromac is pretty much shoving stuff down the opponents throat, right? Baldur works well against a lot of things and forests and Solid ground neuters some shooty lists as well.

Oddly, no. Kromac is a finesse Warlock. Most people will get a blank expression on their face and go "huh?" when I say that but it is true. A Kromac list is like an octopus or a starfish. It is all about cracking open your opponent to get to the tender part inside. The primary tools for that purpose are Warpath and Rift. These increase the threat range of Kromac's Warbeasts and thus makes it very possible for you to clear paths in unexpected ways. Rift allows you to bog down the opponent. While it is always a laugh to put the target away with Kromac personally, this isn't really required most of the time. The best way to do it is still to drop a big, nasty heavy on the opposing caster.

Kromac lists crush opposing magic. Warbeasts move fast. If you add Druids into this mix you are strangle your opponent and can now add push/pull to further the threat range power. In short, Kromac lists (when properly played) are more about movement and position than even a pKaya list. You think three moves ahead like Chess because the key is to line things up for all the extra movement you can get. I'm of the opinion that Kromac is probably our most powerful Warlock but the one with the highest learning curve. Most people just play him like a sledgehammer. That will work fine against about half your opponents but it isn't needed nor wise.

Baldur competes with Kromac for our top spot. He isn't a finesse Warlock. He has a very easy learning curve. Aside from Baldur's possible assassination runs through forests, he plays pretty straightforward. I happen to find Baldur a wonderful Warlock because he adapts to all opponents equally. You likewise don't pay a price for using Constructs. Largely, I suggest Baldur to new players because you don't have to be thinking three moves ahead to get full benefit from him.

[blueskin]

@ Mix Master: That first one is very close to what I normally run with Balur and it's been working great.

@ Bakemono: I kind of went "huh" on this one, but it soon went to a "aha". It really makes sense when I think of it.

I've been trying real hard to come up with a list and this is where I'm at right now.

Kromac
Woldwarden
Feral
Woldwyrd
Druids+ua
Shifting Stones
Lord of the Feast
Swamp Gobbers

What do you say? I feel it's a bit light on beasts but I really want the Druids... hrm.
Maybe ditch the Lord to afford another heavy? What would you bring?

[SlimShady]

blueskin,

Play them both a few games and see which you prefer to play. Then once you decide, build a list around it and master that list. That is the best way to get competitive with any Warlock. Practice practice practice!

Also, I don't see why you are using a Warden with Kromac? You would be much better off with a Pureblood (for obvious reasons) or Shadowhorn. Shadowhorn with Warpath and Leaping is an awesome addition in a Kromac list. Especially with Wild Aggression on him and the new updated offense they gave him (not huge but enough to kill the casters mentioned while under the affects of WA).


OK, up top were talking about a Wyrd charging? Gilgamesh you talking crazy or did I miss something? Time to review the updated cards (er pages).

[blueskin]

Well, Woldwarden is for durability and the ability to throw another Rift. Maybe Feral and Pureblood is a better combo. :) Hrm, now that I think of it I never throw that many Rift anyway...

[blueskin]

Kromac
Pureblood
Feral
Woldwyrd
Druids+ua
Shifting Stones
Lord of the Feast
Swamp Gobbers

Maybe swapping Stones and Gobbers for a Totem Hunter?

[Bakemono]

Also, I don't see why you are using a Warden with Kromac? You would be much better off with a Pureblood (for obvious reasons) or Shadowhorn. Shadowhorn with Warpath and Leaping is an awesome addition in a Kromac list. Especially with Wild Aggression on him and the new updated offense they gave him (not huge but enough to kill the casters mentioned while under the affects of WA).

Kromac is excellent with a Woldwarden. Granted, every list should have a Pureblood, but I don't think you need to cut one to get another. Kromac has several tricks that work particularly well with Woldwardens. Kromac is a "denial" Warlock, which is why he is also a finesse Warlock. Magical denial can be further amplified by having the ability to block LOS. The Woldwarden provides that option. The Woldwarden can do it and Kromac can do it. A particularly useful trick for Kromac (now keeping jump in human form) is that he can move forward, cast the Woldwarden Animus and then jump behind it. Kromac can be a mobile barrier as his army advances. Combined with a Woldwarden this is up to 8" wide. The Woldwarden also adds an additional Rift which is very important to slowing the opponent down while Kromac surges over or around them. I would argue that Kromac gets just as much (if not more) use out of Woldwardens as Baldur does.

[SlimShady]

I just never use Rift that much. More power to you though, always cool to hear everyones strats.

[Bakemono]

I just never use Rift that much. More power to you though, always cool to hear everyones strats.

Really? It is one of his best spells. It is rough terrain that remains on the board and cannot be blown away like Baldurs upkeep forest or a Woldwarden's Animus. Consider the use against infantry. It is an AOE which is nice. You toss it at a unit. You will probably kill one or two but you are also likely to stick or get int he way of others. This means that unit will not be effectively moving forward on its next turn. Maintaining cohesion will act as an anchor/drag. It allows you to dictate pace and how something moves. With a Woldwarden you are getting another one. Moreover, a hard target that gets rifted and then has a damn forest put in its way somewhere else won't be reaching something valuable of yours.

It suffices to say that I don't think you are getting full value on your Kromac if you aren't making use of what is probably one of the best, multi-function AOEs in the game.

[blueskin]

I played Kromac vs Ashlynn and it was very exciting. I basically kept a distance and blocked LOS (the jump after making a forest with Kromac is great!) and kept some rough terrain between us. He was eager to get in melee and use his feat but was surprised to see me engage him before he could feat. I take it he assumed I was going to hang back for another turn. I had the Feral walk up to a 'jack and throw it on Ashlynn. I missed of course but it deviated short enough to have her knocked over. Kromac did the jump thing and killed her with his initial attacks.

Kromac is very powerful and I'm convinced that you're right Bakemono - he really is a precision tool. It will take some time to learn to use him, but that's ok since he's great fun to play. :)