Fluff doesn't equal rules... unless it's Cryx..

[Ghyrrshyld]

So I haven't been playing this game for THAT long, but I am noticing a disturbing trend. Mercs don't work for Cryx. They seemingly will continue to not work for Cryx.

It doesn't seem to have any real reason or rhyme to it except that fluff says so.

Doesn't this mean that Cryx as a faction will have less options than every other WM Faction as far as combos and lists? Should Cryx get more models released in faction to make up for this?

[Snake Eyes]

I was indirectly thinking about this recently. I was pondering the innate advantages of being undead. It confers both fearless and a LOT of Mk. II abilities trigger on or effect only living models. I was wondering whether PP took this into account when pointing Cryx models. It doesn't seem like this advantage is pointed into the models but it is possible that they kind of balance it out by removing access to Merc models.

Just a thought.

BTW, as the faction with the second least access to Mercs (the Protectorate) I feel your pain for not getting access to all the fun, and often competitive, Merc toys.

[Rave0183]

yyyeeeeaahhhh. In general..mercs dont like us. Something about ravaging dead bodies to increase our army. I dunny why.

In general though. Our solo's rock. Some factions would give their left thrall to have access to the murder machines that are Tartarus and Gerlak. Would it be nice to have the option of some of the other mecs...sure...do we need them...not at all.

We do have some good ones though. Orin Midwinter, Gorman Di'Wulf, Saxon Orrik..or alten ashley...i cant remember which..but one is gooooood!

[ResurrectioN]

It is strange, I know.
It seems that mercs prefer gold to eternal (un)life+gold.

[theWestWinds]

We do have some good ones though. Orin Midwinter, Gorman Di'Wulf, Saxon Orrik..or alten ashley...i cant remember which..but one is gooooood!
Heh, If only we had access to Alton! But still, Saxon Orrik has some fun anti-horde abilities that are a lot more Cryx-esk, i.e. Expert Hunter which gives the deathjack, or a unit of thralls, or whoever, the ability to slap a beast in the face immediately after it misses a hit on us...

I digress. We do have less Mercs. Whether that is factored into our point cost, or how many models we have access to, is unknown (at least to me). Whether that is factored into our undead ability cost, is also unknown (again, to me). But I can say that I think it would be silly looking if we had a ton of normal looking Mercs scattered in with our army. Like they said above, we are the walking dead. People get creeped out by that for some reason. Gorman and some of the darker Mercs fit in with us. Hell, anyone who throws acid bombs fits in with us. And I sort of like it that way. It makes me feel like Cryx is an exclusive club (even if it is technically speaking, just the opposite).

[BENDER]

And we can hold the moral highground for once. We don't even deal with Eiryss. :)

[Decade]

Speaking of our "favorite" elf *****, since the fluff mentions we have agents all through the IKs, it'd be kinda interesting to eventually have a merc with Cryx Partisan, sort of like an agent that ostensibly is a freelancer, but ultimately works for the Dragon. It'd fit with our theme, and hell, the crossbow wielding witch makes no secret that she's got it in for spellcasters, yet the nations still keep hiring her. I'm sure a trained Cryxian agent (that's not undead) could just as easily keep getting jobs.

[gold pants]

And we can hold the moral highground for once. We don't even deal with Eiryss. :)

theres nothing like an excarnated elf to make your enemy groan.at least old rules anyway.cant remember the new rules at the moment

[hauntingexperience]

Just adds a grunt to a friendly undead unit now. :(
Costs 3 still

[Typhael]

And we can hold the moral highground for once. We don't even deal with Eiryss. :)

But almost everyone else does (barring Hordes), which is a crippling difference. We have absolutely nothing that can do what Eiryss does, and she'll even work for the xenophobic Protectorate.

To address the OP: we have some great in-faction combos, but so does every other faction. When you factor in the access to more mercenaries like Eiryss, every other faction has more combos. Do we have access to more troops in-faction as a result? No. Are we cheaper as a result? No, with qualification: we are already toted as the "swarm" faction, and you can't tell me that the "swarm" mechanic is worth the same point cost as the "ranged hell" mechanic that other factions seem to have. :)

Am I starting to actually resent playing Cryx? A little, yeah. I love a lot of the stuff we get, but I don't like this blatant exclusion* for little more reason than fluff, which PP seems happy to navigate around in other cases.


*It would be nice if we got an in-faction equivalent to Eiryss, at least in some way (as a toolbox, not a ranged death-machine). If this happened, then I might feel less bitter about our inability to field what is potentially one of the best models (for its points cost) in the game.

[Charwood]

If they went the route of un-chartered mercenaries (a la the Bloodwolves) or unscrupulous "bandit" companies (like the Orgunholt Raiders), then Cryx could conceivably have a shot at some out of faction blood...or bodies...or souls.

But yeah, we've got a new guy coming on board for Mk II and so far he's happy that he can pick up Gorman, but that's about it.

-Charwood

[Decade]

Fluff-wise, I guess why the elf witch doesn't play with us, but will roll with the protectorate, is because
a) we work for a dragon, and the lingering bad taste of what Ethrhunbal did to her civilization.
b) Goreshade is on our payroll, and he's trying to kill the very god she's trying to save. Sort of a conflict of interests there.

However, I'm with you Typhael, but you know that the moment we get some sort of unit, even a mercenary, that's as good as Eiryss, it'll cause every other faction to start screaming the equivalent of "Blargh! You gave the bad-guys something good to help them! Broken!" I know we've got good stuff in faction already, but c'mon, its not like we're completely overpowered or anything. I mean, the only five mercenaries I've ever considered fielding are the Nyss hunters, Gorman, Orin, Saxon and Fiona.

[tarrant_01]

Ah the days when halberdiers signed up to be soul-tokens for the harrower. They will be missed (the souls, not the halberdiers).

[Talking Head]

Just adds a grunt to a friendly undead unit now. :(
Costs 3 still

Ahem, just add 18 Bane Knights to a friendly undead unit now. :) Hurray for focus dumps. (Ok, Tartarus helped too, but only a little)

[Aries37]

Cryx have been balanced day 1 to deal with the lack of Eiryss. As a faction you have some of the most insane models/rules for their points costs. In mk2 Menoth has overshadowed you in the discounts department somewhat but you're still doing better than Cygnar and Khador (who both have to be balanced for a ton of mercs). Also remember that fluff still plays a massive role for Khador- no arc nodes, no light jacks, no jack with more than speed 4.

I actually feel handicapped if I play against Cryx without the elf wh-re :(

[SkinnyGuy]

Not to sound overly negative or anything, but I'm curious as to what you think Cryx has that's so insane for its point cost. I mean we have good stuff, but there's not much in faction I'm apt to consider that way.

As for mercs, yeah, it's getting annoying rather quickly. Everyone works for Cygnar it seems.

[Cambeul]

I just look at it as we do not need to play with a Crutch to beat our opponents.

Of course if I could take the Piper in Mk1 then I would make people hate my Bane Knights even more MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

But seriously Mercs are used to cover holes and weaknesses in your army, and for the Cryx has none.

[Typhael]

Cryx have been balanced day 1 to deal with the lack of Eiryss. As a faction you have some of the most insane models/rules for their points costs. In mk2 Menoth has overshadowed you in the discounts department somewhat but you're still doing better than Cygnar and Khador (who both have to be balanced for a ton of mercs).

And this slight cost difference makes up for the lack of a great variety of models that could actually help us? Especially when more expensive models are actually better than the cheaper ones (else there would be a *lot* of complaining)?

Balanced since day 1...and since things were drastically re-balanced, don't you think that this affects your argument a little?



But seriously Mercs are used to cover holes and weaknesses in your army, and for the Cryx has none.

I heartily disagree. Does the Piper cover "holes and weaknesses" in a Cygnaran/Khadoran army, or does he just make things that much better? I have a better example: Eiryss has access to Disruption, which covers Khador/Protectorate's lack of Disruption. Cryx, as we all know, has Disruption...wait...

Edit: I apologize for my aggressive sarcasm, but it honestly bugs me how many people make the assumption that Cryx is "omg overpowered" before actually looking at what everyone can do.

[Talking Head]

Or Cryx has the holes, and Cryx players just have to learn how to play their army properly and work around the holes instead of selecting from a smorgusboard of crutches... Because that is what mercs are by definition: models that you *never* take unless they are directly *better* than your in faction options, i.e. crutches.

The other factions are perfectly balanced against Cryx as long as you stop trying to make the other factions do things they are not supposed to be good at and take mercs to let you do it. Anyone who needs Eyriss to have a fair chance is just playing against someone better than them. I say that, because when I use Eyriss on the table, I find that I can suddenly do effective things without trying very hard. Either I magically get better at the game when I put Eyriss in a list... or well... I think any objective person pretty much knows the answer when it comes to Eyriss and her arrows of auto-lose which she just happens to shoot at RAT 9. I mean really, how unfair would it be to have a chance of missing with a shot that should allow any competent player to completely win the game hands down if it hits...

But I guess if people honestly think their faction really needs a 3 point solo that fires arrows that do more than many warcaster's feats do... well, I guess those people need all the help Eyriss can give them.

[Typhael]

Either I magically get better at the game when I put Eyriss in a list... or well... I think any objective person pretty much knows the answer when it comes to Eyriss and her arrows of auto-lose which she just happens to shoot at RAT 9. I mean really, how unfair would it be to have a chance of missing with a shot that should allow any competent player to completely win the game hands down if it hits...

But I guess if people honestly think their faction really needs a 3 point solo that fires arrows that do more than many warcaster's feats do... well, I guess those people need all the help Eyriss can give them.

That's an excellent way of putting it, and pretty much refutes the earlier "Cryx is overpowered!" argument. Still, I find it frustrating that every other WM faction has access to this weapon, and we don't. I can prove that I'm "better" than my opponent (debatable) by not taking the elf, but when I don't even have the option, it becomes annoying.

[Decade]

So, fielding Eiryss would be akin to bringing a machine-gun to a knife fight. I suppose with that sort of advantage anyone could win. I stand by my statement that were we to have that kind of option, there would be a considerable amount of decrying about "OMG Cryx is broken again."

As for the idea that Cryx is balanced for not having access to mercenaries, and has no "holes" in our army, I'm going to politely disagree with that. No faction is without holes. We've always been the cheap, fast hitting guys with great def, and magic, but have crap arm and health. The biggest hole we have to deal with is we're awful at range, so we've got to actually close with our foes without being able to pick them apart as we advance, and when our units get hit, they collapse like a house of cards, which is particularly true with most of our troops and AOEs. But as Talking Head pointed out, we learn how to deal with this, since, unlike the other factions, we don't really have the option of covering up the holes with mercenary patches. Does this please me? Shards no. Am I willing to deal with it to play this faction? Yes.

[Cambeul]

I heartily disagree. Does the Piper cover "holes and weaknesses" in a Cygnaran/Khadoran army, or does he just make things that much better? I have a better example: Eiryss has access to Disruption, which covers Khador/Protectorate's lack of Disruption. Cryx, as we all know, has Disruption...wait...

Edit: I apologize for my aggressive sarcasm, but it honestly bugs me how many people make the assumption that Cryx is "omg overpowered" before actually looking at what everyone can do.


I was being a little sarcastic about Cryx and having Holes in our army. I know we have weaknesses like every other Faction, but I think we become better players for it not being able to just putting a Bandaid on our list by adding a Merc to our list.

I really enjoy playing Menoth and getting Disrupted by the Elf, then playing Khador and getting disrupted by the Elf, then Cygnar and oh wait, getting disupted by the Elf.

As for the Piper I have seen him in almost all my matches against Cygnar and Menoth that they may as well just make him permament in their list. And so help Morrow if I could put the Piper in my Khador list my Iron Fang Pikemen would put a beating on you, you wish you were not born.

I think the only Merc I really use, and not that often, is Gorman du Wulfe, and even then it is a toss up between him and my Bloat Thrall.

[karn987]

All I want is the piper in my cryx lists... ohhh it would be beautiful and horrible at the same time!

[Zaxon]

Eiryss doesn't work for Cryx because we know who she is. In her fluff in the Retribution book, it describes her as being a clandestine agent who misleads her clients...the factions don't realize she is a mage hunter when they hire her, otherwise Cygnar would kill her on sight. Goreshade aside, I would imagine the mere presence of an Iosan would rub most lich lords the wrong way.

One of the biggest reasons (for me, anyway) to use living mercenary models was to have easy access to souls for our casters. Now that soul tokens are only generated by enemy living models, it becomes less valuable to pay the premium for mercenary models when our own resources fill most of our needs. Yes, we still have gaps. Our weaknesses as well as our strengths are what define each faction. Cryx has always been competetive without access to the mercenaries of Immoren. Mk II isn't going to change that.

Oh, and consider this...we have access to more mercenaries than the Retribution of Scyrah.

[Corpazious]

Privateer releases a Merc (for recent examples, see Dannon Blythe and Bull and Harlen Versh).
In order, it is most likely to work for Cygnar, Khador, Menoth, then Cryx. Often, the most useful Mercs work for EVERYONE except Cryx (and sometimes Menoth).
All Factions also get "in Faction" models, but since most other Factions get far more and useful Merc choices, then in reality, those Factions are getting more models, choices, and options.
Therefore, Cryx (and sometimes Menoth) should get more "in Faction" models to compensate and keep things balanced.

It's not as if Cryx is soooo powerful and sooooo broken that we, as a Faction, need to be gimped by not having the same amount of Merc choices.
The fluff as to why most Mercs won't work for us makes perfect sense.
The balance of why most Mercs won't work for us doesn't make sense.
Give Cryx more Mercs, or give Cryx more "in Faction" models than the other Factions get, please...... or we'll eat your souls. :D

[Warlordtheft]

It is kind of a myth, though the ones we do get we sometimes wonder why we might need them over our own troops. Just to go through the list of Mercs that work for Cryx (off the top of my head):

Nyss Hunters
Croe's Cutthroats
BoomHowler and Co
Steelhead infantry
Steelhead Cav
All Sea dog units

Saxon Orric
Gorman De Wulf
Mc Dougal
Bloody Brandigan
Doc (though he only heals Merc models in Mk2)
Grundier
Ogrun Bokur
Alten Ashley
(There are some more)

Casters
Magnus
All the pirate casters except one (I might be wrong on this).

[blakeh1]

Nyss Hunter's and Boomhowler and Co and Croes all provide range attacks which we don't really have much of. Of course the Nyss hunter's are probably the most reliable of the group for range attacks. Although even for a viable range option, I find Black Ogrun a better option now over Boomhowler cost wise. For a min unit of
Boomhowler's unit you can get a max unit of Black Ogrun (1 less model, but they are multi-wound)

Sea Dogs and Steelhead on the other hand don't really give us anything we couldn't get either cheaper or better from our own troops

In the past, I think the some of the appeal for units like Steelhead and Sea Dogs was that they were relatively cheap living models and you could collect their souls as they die off so it was a win - win for use. either they did their job and killed stuff and we get souls, or they died and we get souls.

[blakeh1]

All I want is the piper in my cryx lists... ohhh it would be beautiful and horrible at the same time!

MKII Piper?

I'm just curious why...

I don't see much he could do for our units since everything except Satyxis and Black Orgun are fearless, we have tons of stuff that has pathfinder, or casters who can give them Ghostly/Ghost Walk, we have a fair amount of Terror causing stuff

I'd rather spend that 2 points on a Skarlock or necrosurgeon

[AndyFrazer]

Remember there are also a number of possibilities with the IKrpg minis that are being converted for WM/H... including...


Draegun the Black Bastard
Nonokrion Order Curator & Discerning Beast
Jhureen Hecatha; Satyxis Raider
Umbral Assassin
Umbral Warrior
Umbral Sorcerer

All of whom may potentially work for Cryx...

There's also Lord Vyros; Iosian Eldritch

But as to whether he would work for Cryx... who's to know... ;)

[Typhael]

Privateer releases a Merc (for recent examples, see Dannon Blythe and Bull and Harlen Versh).
In order, it is most likely to work for Cygnar, Khador, Menoth, then Cryx. Often, the most useful Mercs work for EVERYONE except Cryx (and sometimes Menoth).
All Factions also get "in Faction" models, but since most other Factions get far more and useful Merc choices, then in reality, those Factions are getting more models, choices, and options.
Therefore, Cryx (and sometimes Menoth) should get more "in Faction" models to compensate and keep things balanced.

It's not as if Cryx is soooo powerful and sooooo broken that we, as a Faction, need to be gimped by not having the same amount of Merc choices.
The fluff as to why most Mercs won't work for us makes perfect sense.
The balance of why most Mercs won't work for us doesn't make sense.
Give Cryx more Mercs, or give Cryx more "in Faction" models than the other Factions get, please...... or we'll eat your souls. :D

Yes, this logic is perfect; a thousand times this. "Tough it out because we don't need crutches" is an inadequate reply to this perfect argument. I desperately wish that PP would take note of this (it also applies, to some extent, to other factions).


Remember there are also a number of possibilities with the IKrpg minis that are being converted for WM/H... including...


Draegun the Black Bastard
Nonokrion Order Curator & Discerning Beast
Jhureen Hecatha; Satyxis Raider
Umbral Assassin
Umbral Warrior
Umbral Sorcerer

All of whom may potentially work for Cryx...


That would be awesome, except that as I understand it, Cryx and the Infernals do *not* get along.

Also, to note...does Alten Ashley work for us now? I didn't think so, but I haven't had a chance to look at the new cards...

[Zaxon]

Yes, this logic is perfect; a thousand times this. "Tough it out because we don't need crutches" is an inadequate reply to this perfect argument.

Not my intent. I would love to have access to more mercenary options, just as I would love there to be alternate sculpts of some of the existing options that are more Cryxian in flavor (I guess I can convert my own bokur, though). I merely intended to explain why Eiryss won't work for us.

And no, Alten Ashley still is too much of a coward to work for us.

[Typhael]

Not my intent. I would love to have access to more mercenary options, just as I would love there to be alternate sculpts of some of the existing options that are more Cryxian in flavor (I guess I can convert my own bokur, though). I merely intended to explain why Eiryss won't work for us.

And no, Alten Ashley still is too much of a coward to work for us.

It wasn't necessarily you. :) There were some posts earlier on about Cryx not needing mercs because we're "so awesome", and "mercs are just crutches that other baby-sissy-factions need." Those posts are what I was taking issue with.

[yankeefan]

sadly it looks like this is to continue another cool looking merc that we dont get...oh well :(

[Ghyrrshyld]

I wonder if we can get this stickied, since it is going to apply pretty much every few weeks or whatever.

[McCryx]

Privateer releases a Merc (for recent examples, see Dannon Blythe and Bull and Harlen Versh).
In order, it is most likely to work for Cygnar, Khador, Menoth, then Cryx. Often, the most useful Mercs work for EVERYONE except Cryx (and sometimes Menoth).
All Factions also get "in Faction" models, but since most other Factions get far more and useful Merc choices, then in reality, those Factions are getting more models, choices, and options.
Therefore, Cryx (and sometimes Menoth) should get more "in Faction" models to compensate and keep things balanced.
It's not as if Cryx is soooo powerful and sooooo broken that we, as a Faction, need to be gimped by not having the same amount of Merc choices.
The fluff as to why most Mercs won't work for us makes perfect sense.
The balance of why most Mercs won't work for us doesn't make sense.
Give Cryx more Mercs, or give Cryx more "in Faction" models than the other Factions get, please...... or we'll eat your souls.

-Emphasis Mine-

Oddly enough I was out to lunch with a few of my buddies and we were discussing this very issue.

I feel more than justified in seconding the motion that we as a faction, who do have access to fewer models than any other faction, receive MORE in-faction models.

I realize that Hordes players will writhe at this because they have way fewer options than WM, but that's neither here nor there, I'm comparing WM to WM.

If Cygnar can use up to 30 (arbitrary number) unique models/units then it is completely acceptable for every other faction to have the same access. Even if granted through additional in faction models vs mercenaries/minions.

It may only be an extra fig or two per faction; I still think the disparity off kilter?s the balance.

-Cheers-

[yankeefan]

ok a quick scan of JUST mercs cygnar has the option of 36 unique warcasters/solos/units/attachments cryx is at 23. (did the count quick may have missed 1-2) thats 13 more thats not a small number.

[ResurrectioN]

^including Eyriss and A&H.

Steelheads could be replacement for McTs w/o Surgeon in some lists for killing medDEF/medARM stuff. Surgeon tips the scale to mcT's side just by providing survivability to unit.

Nyss are excelent as they are self susteined and versatile unit.
I've been using them with eDenny for their long threat range with bows.
Too bad they dont benefit from "ignore LOS" part of Marked for Death.

Same goes with Croe and gang. Fantastic at killing beasts on feat turn (they really need that -3 to def on enemy) and can manage to kill something after feat with -2 on def from MfD.

I used Boomhowller only in thematic all ogrun/trolls list because Gorgers are way better in all other cases.

Iron Lich Asphyxious
Deathripper
Deathripper
Skarlock Thrall
Black Ogrun Boarding Party (max)
Bloodgorgers (max)
Bloodgorgers (max)
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (max)
Bane Lord Tartarus
Bosun Grogspar
General Gerlak Slaughterborn
Gudrun the Wanderer
Ogrun Bokur

[Lee T]

ok a quick scan of JUST mercs cygnar has the option of 36 unique warcasters/solos/units/attachments cryx is at 23. (did the count quick may have missed 1-2) thats 13 more thats not a small number.

And that's actually a huge progress, the discrepancy used to be a lot bigger before Pirates of the Broken Coast.