35pts Lists on a budget

[Jake the Dog]

I recently started WM with a Khador Battlebox. I'm pondering if to either: upgrade that to 35pts or get a second 35pts army thus making Khador backup/second faction to upgrade later on (I made a similar topic on the Merc & Cryx forums, my brother will go Cygnar/PoM). But I'm on a $150 budget. I shop at thewarstore, so at least there is a retail price discount. I would like to know if a 35pts list under the budget is feasible.

Edit - If it is relevant, I like the look of Vyros (Sword & pose), Rahn (Staff/spear & cool pose), and Garyth (again pose and Gunblades look cool) but I'd play anyone, really :)

Edit 2 - How is this list? I sat on Forward Kommander making it, no idea if it is good as I don't know their stats (basing on BattleCollege):

Vyros
--Phoenix
--Hydra
--Griffon

Dawnguard Invictors [full]
--UA
pEiryss/Narn
Ghost Sniper
Arcarnist

Just a few cents shy of $140 ;)
---------------
Comment it, take it apart, redo it, whatever :)

[loftybloke]

My first thoughts on this list are that there are too many 'jacks for Vyros. The Griffon would work well with Sentinels marshaling (don't know if Invictors can, and don't have my book). Vyros does love Hydras though, and the Phoenix is a solid choice :)

[Jake the Dog]

BattleCollege says Invictors can marshal 1 jack, but aren't jacks better ran by Vyros?

[loftybloke]

He only has 6 focus, not really too much for two heavies, let alone the third jack :) the invictors will get flank with that griffon too :) and the arcanist will be of sue there.

Having said all that, I'm yet to win a single game of WM so take my advice as you will ;p

[hausdorff space]

Vyros
--Phoenix
--Hydra
--Griffon
Dawnguard Invictors [full]
--UA
pEiryss/Narn
Ghost Sniper
Arcarnist
---------------
Comment it, take it apart, redo it, whatever :)

Dawnlord Vyros
- Hydra
- Phoenix
Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 9 Grunts)
- Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard
- Soulless Escort
- Griffon
Arcanist
Arcanist
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios or Eiryss, Angel of Retribution

I'm not sure how great this will be as I haven't played anything like it. But Invictors take Inviolable Resolve with which, and a soulless, they should be able to form quite a reasonable line.
The Griffon can always go on Vyros, but marshaling is fun (truth be told he'll run much better on Vyros).

Full the Hydra up with focus first turn, cast mobility a lot and play agressive.
The two arcanists will help you run the jacks, and keep them as quite the threat - remember they ignore LoS for melee too, so can charge in any direction, have 360 degree front arcs and (with reach) can attack through models.

[Jake the Dog]

Dawnlord Vyros
- Hydra
- Phoenix
Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 9 Grunts)
- Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard
- Soulless Escort
- Griffon
Arcanist
Arcanist
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios or Eiryss, Angel of Retribution

I'm not sure how great this will be as I haven't played anything like it. But Invictors take Inviolable Resolve with which, and a soulless, they should be able to form quite a reasonable line.
The Griffon can always go on Vyros, but marshaling is fun (truth be told he'll run much better on Vyros).

Full the Hydra up with focus first turn, cast mobility a lot and play agressive.
The two arcanists will help you run the jacks, and keep them as quite the threat - remember they ignore LoS for melee too, so can charge in any direction, have 360 degree front arcs and (with reach) can attack through models.

With those changes, it comes up to around $147-148 on thewastore (still within the $150 budget).

Any other budget list ideas? I'm open to any warcaster.

[hausdorff space]

Garryth, Blade of Retribution
- Chimera
- Griffon
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts)
- Mage Hunter Commander
- Soulless Escort
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts)
- Soulless Escort
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts)
- Soulless Escort
Mage Hunter Assassin
Mage Hunter Assassin
Mage Hunter Assassin
Mage Hunter Assassin
Mage Hunter Assassin
Nayl


this is just over budget?
(Buying two Strikeforces, and break into three minimum units)

- I think you can get in within budget if you 'convert'/use the 2 remaining unit members into MHAs (so you can buy 2 less)

[Jake the Dog]

My bro's conversion skill (he paints/assembles for me as I'm handicapped and have weak hands) is very poor.
What about Ravyn, Kaelyssa, or Rahn?

[hausdorff space]

Unless you want it tourny legal (which the conversion wouldn't be in either case), a distinctive paint job is all that would be required.
- and if you were to play at an official event, I'm sure the TO would be very understanding.


Just thinking about the situation. If you're going to get another 'faction', why not focus on an army that's quite heavy on models that will work for Khador?
You can do it in any faction. Just make it very mercenary heavy.
Well, RoS can't run very mercenary heavy, but we can take Eiryss, A&H and the Nyss hunters, both of which work for Khador too, which is 17pts right there.

You then just need to pick 18pts (+ warjack points) worth of models that do it for you.
...you could even chuck in Dahlia&Skarath and Lanyssa Ryssyll, they won't work for Khador, but they may work for something you or your brother pick up down the line.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=13084

[FranzGrenstein]

You might think about putting Ravyin in thecshain's inital list I think it would be respectable; everything takes advantage of her feat in the list.

I would also try to squeeze a MHA or Narn in to the budget. They are excellent additions to any list.

[Doctor Chopsaki]

Rahn is an easy and relatively affordable list to build. Here's what I'd suggest. (NOTE: this list suffers some exclusivity to rahn and is a bit difficult to transfer to other casters) Also, this list is a Tier 3 theme list, which is a bonus.

Adeptis Rahn: -6
-Phoenix: +10
-Manticore: +8
House Shyeel Battle Mages (5+Leader): +5
House Shyeel Battle Mages (5+Leader): +5
Houseguard Halberdiers (5+Leader+UA): +6
Soulless Escort: +1
House Shyeel Magister: +2
House Shyeel Magister: +2
House Shyeel Magister: +2
Arcanist: Free

The Halberdiers are a great unit that you can use in lists under most casters. However, the mages and magisters aren't nearly as effective under other casters. But if you're looking to build a cheap, effective list, this would work. Also it's easy to expand this list to 50 by filling out the halberdiers and by picking up a houseguard riflemen unit.

I personally play this list a lot my self and have a lot of success with it. Not to mention it's fun to toss your opponent around like a ragdoll with all the force bolts. So, cheers, that's my 2 cents.

-Dr. C

[Jake the Dog]

Rahn is an easy and relatively affordable list to build. Here's what I'd suggest. (NOTE: this list suffers some exclusivity to rahn and is a bit difficult to transfer to other casters) Also, this list is a Tier 3 theme list, which is a bonus.

Adeptis Rahn: -6
-Phoenix: +10
-Manticore: +8
House Shyeel Battle Mages (5+Leader): +5
House Shyeel Battle Mages (5+Leader): +5
Houseguard Halberdiers (5+Leader+UA): +6
Soulless Escort: +1
House Shyeel Magister: +2
House Shyeel Magister: +2
House Shyeel Magister: +2
Arcanist: Free

The Halberdiers are a great unit that you can use in lists under most casters. However, the mages and magisters aren't nearly as effective under other casters. But if you're looking to build a cheap, effective list, this would work. Also it's easy to expand this list to 50 by filling out the halberdiers and by picking up a houseguard riflemen unit.

I personally play this list a lot my self and have a lot of success with it. Not to mention it's fun to toss your opponent around like a ragdoll with all the force bolts. So, cheers, that's my 2 cents.

-Dr. C

Looks cool but it comes to almost $200...:(

[Doctor Chopsaki]

Ah....so it does. I forgot I got all of my ret at a store clearance sale and only paid half price. Oh well, you could run it in a 25 point incarnation until you have enough. which would be something like...

Adeptis Rahn: -6
-Phoenix: +10
House Shyeel Battle Mages (5+Leader): +5
House Shyeel Battle Mages (5+Leader): +5
Houseguard Halberdiers (5+Leader+UA): +6
House Shyeel Magister: +2
House Shyeel Magister: +2
Arcanist: +1

I think regardless as to what list you decide to build for $150 you should keep in mind what direction you want to go in with the army in the future. And if you don't know, pick units, like the MHSF, that can be used in many lists. Also, run heavy on Solos. Our solos are good for what they cost (both in points and in $$). Hope that helps

p.s. garyth is fairly solo friendly, so look at the advice about him in above posts and maybe consider him.

[Lighten]

For what it's worth, I've run a similar list to the Vyros in your OP and, aside from the fact that I'm prone to misguess distances and get my 'jacks charged, it seems to do okay. Hydras don't really eat into your focus on most turns while still putting out damage, and that really helps. Griffin should probably be on Vyros, since it's one of the better jacks for his feat turn (may as well at least try to use the feat).

I like Magisters over ghost snipers when you're playing with a single two-point solo, but that's just preference. And when you get around to running Vyros with three heavies and a Griffin (try it sometime, it's fun), you'll want a second arcanist.

[Jake the Dog]

@ thecsharian - How does the buying 2 MHSF dividing into 3 workout (because there are only 2 leader models I assume)?
A Ravyn T4 might be doable in $150 or less I think (basing on sticky topic, I dunno the tiers exactly)...

@ Doc Chopsaki - I need the list to be 35pts to keep up with my brother's Siege Cygnar list :).

@ Lighten - 3 Heavies in 35pts? o.O Haven't seen it outside of Khador (pButcher, pVlad, & Karchev can do it).

@ Anyone - What are you opinions on the following:
- Mage Hunter Unit & their UA
- Ghost Snipers
- Dawnguard Units (Invictors & Sentinels) & their UA
- Houseguard Halbediers & UA
- Dawnguard Solo
- Fane Knight solo (is it in the book?)
Feel free to just address some of them if you like.

[Jake the Dog]

Everyone, I've decided on just upgrading my Khador, but don't worry, all your input will help me when I go to get a second army.
Edit - Read post #18

[Jice_]

I'm going to have to disagree with everyones sugestion to not have the griffon with Vyros. You're loosing out on a 360 degree shield bonus, +2 speed for the fastest Jack with Powerfull charge no less, and the extra focus he'd get during the feat turn.

If you're worried about focus take 2 arcanists, but Jacks on the table will always be better off under Vyros, especially griffons. If the idea is to use it to flank, it's the only jack that just by being in Vyros' battle group when he sets off Mobility and using an Arcanist focus can get a total range of 12" without charging. That's the kind of flexability you want in a jack you're using to flank, plus nothing supprizes the hell out of a Warcaster like a 15" Mat 8. Pow 15 Attack (3 focus and the Arcanist's concentrated power.)

My standard Vyros list before adding anything else in is usually

Vyros
Phoenix
Manticore/Hydra
Griffon

Invictors +UA/Sentinels +UA
2x Arcanist.

Then what ever else I feel is usefull from there. Usually either of the Dawnguard unit I didn't bring just to keep things flavorfull, or some Battle mages to push stuff into your jacks and act as loose fodder for Hallowed Avenger.

[Jake the Dog]

:o I REALLY wanna use the elves. I found out too late Khador's infantry is hella expensive (monetary) when compared to equivalents in other factions (IFP+UA=10pts, $80 vs. HGH+UA=9pts, $55). I got FoW Khador as a gift and its pulling me...

Maybe my bank will pull me back to the cheaper elves...arghhh what do I do...

[Lighten]

@Jice - I actually agreed with you, for the most part, on the Griffin. But I've run him marshalled before too, if I was planning to use him as Vyros' flank buddy, just to save the focus point for the run (with arcanist and marshal, 16" run+reach is nice for flank). Mobility is more hindrance than help if you're trying to flank for Vyros, since the Griffin has to activate first to get into position.

@Wargamer - I'm actually taking the 3 heavies @ 35 list to Adepticon's midnight madness tourney this weekend. I'll have to let you know how badly it goes. Hydra, arcanists really do help with the focus drain. That said, it's fun but certainly not something I'd want as my main take-all-comers list. But two heavies (as your original list) is certainly feasible.

[hausdorff space]

@ thecsharian - How does the buying 2 MHSF dividing into 3 workout (because there are only 2 leader models I assume)?You get 20 Mage Hunter strike force models, break them into 3 lots of 6. You only have on leader, but you can paint a trooper up to look like a leader - give him a different colour cloak, or a hat or something.

That's leave two spare models you can call "MHAs" and just paint distinctively.


A Ravyn T4 might be doable in $150 or less I think (basing on sticky topic, I dunno the tiers exactly)...The tiers are pretty well spelt out in the sticky ;)


Just to reiterate this, as I feel it may have been overlooked:

If you're going to get another 'faction', why not focus on an army that's quite heavy on models that will work for Khador?
You can do it in any faction. Just make it very mercenary heavy.
Well, RoS can't run very mercenary heavy, but we can take Eiryss, A&H and the Nyss hunters, both of which work for Khador too, which is 17pts right there.

...you could even chuck in Dahlia&Skarath and Lanyssa Ryssyll, they won't work for Khador, but they may work for something you or your brother pick up down the line.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=13084

[Jake the Dog]

What do Nyss Hunters do? (no MkII BattleCollege article)
Which Ret and Khador caster(s) could benefit from them?

Seems like a tight fit but who knows, perhaps I can pull off a dual list (seems too hard at $150 though).

[hausdorff space]

What do Nyss Hunters do? (no MkII BattleCollege article)
Which Ret and Khador caster(s) could benefit from them?They're a high DEF shooting unit who ignore LOS restrictions.

...so any caster who works with that sort of thing. ;)

- As a merc unit you want a caster that either has use for a ranged unit, or offers buffs that work on "friendly models" as opposed to "friendly faction models"

[Jice_]

@Jice - I actually agreed with you, for the most part, on the Griffin. But I've run him marshalled before too, if I was planning to use him as Vyros' flank buddy, just to save the focus point for the run (with arcanist and marshal, 16" run+reach is nice for flank). Mobility is more hindrance than help if you're trying to flank for Vyros, since the Griffin has to activate first to get into position.

It's not for Vyros. It for the Griffon it'self. The problem I have with the way most people use Griffons is that they see it as a Reach Flank generator. I see it as the Hardest hitting light jack at it's point level in the game, which is also the best in defence and speed. Vyros doesn't need to do any more than sit in the back and cast Mobility and take opportunistic charges if they present themselves. It's also the best jack for Hallowed Avenger as it's Powerfull charge ability gives it the best opportunity to actaully hit with the free charge attack. To me it's a bullet, and only works as such in Vyros' group.

[hausdorff space]

To me it's a bullet, and only works as such in Vyros' group.Completely agreed on all but this. It's an freakin missile - Birds eye and it's 'imprint' makes it insane

[Jake the Dog]

Hmm...tried to do a dual list but didn't fit my budget.
But thanks for pointing out the Nyss Hunters. They seem to be a good unit for their points, even if I go with Khador, I'm considering them now. But I am not liking the Studio paintjob (pale blueish skin). I guess that is from being Nyss?
<---- Total noob on elf fluff

[Lighten]

It's not for Vyros. It for the Griffon it'self. The problem I have with the way most people use Griffons is that they see it as a Reach Flank generator. I see it as the Hardest hitting light jack at it's point level in the game, which is also the best in defence and speed. Vyros doesn't need to do any more than sit in the back and cast Mobility and take opportunistic charges if they present themselves. It's also the best jack for Hallowed Avenger as it's Powerfull charge ability gives it the best opportunity to actaully hit with the free charge attack. To me it's a bullet, and only works as such in Vyros' group.

Yeah, but it is a Reach flank generator. It can and does take out plenty of models on its own, and it certainly can become a pow 15/15" range bullet, but in an army with Vyros and Invictors, it can often contribute more by staying near the rest of the army, hitting targets of opportunity nearer the battle line (and yes, providing flank) than it can by being flung forward. Unless you have a target worth losing the Griffin for or a line to the warcaster, of course.

I'm not sure about the "hardest hitting light jack for the points in the game" argument. Several factions have good damage output lights at 4 points... Chargers, Stalkers, and Dervishes can all outdamage a Griffin, and all three of those factions certainly have buffs comparable to what Vyros and Invictors can do, both for power and speed.

[hausdorff space]

Total noob on elf fluffyeah, Nyss being 'winter elves' a generally given blueish skin.


Don't forget Eiryss.




WRT budget. This list is in budget (http://privateerpressforums.com/showpost.php?p=202175&postcount=6) ?
Which should make a later double list very easy... whatever the faction.

[Jake the Dog]

yeah, Nyss being 'winter elves' a generally given blueish skin.


Don't forget Eiryss.




WRT budget. This list is in budget (http://privateerpressforums.com/showpost.php?p=202175&postcount=6) ?
Which should make a later double list very easy... whatever the faction.

I think it may be (I'll check later), but being some of them minions/hordes models, I'd hate to later on need. updating to mkii.

[Jice_]

I'm not sure about the "hardest hitting light jack for the points in the game" argument. Several factions have good damage output lights at 4 points... Chargers, Stalkers, and Dervishes can all outdamage a Griffin, and all three of those factions certainly have buffs comparable to what Vyros and Invictors can do, both for power and speed.

Don't look at one sentance and pick it out, as I also mentioned it's Armor and Speed as other factors. Sure a charger can hit harder, but it can't take a hit all that well, which is also especially true for the stalker. The fact that the Griffon has all of the big three, Power, toughness and speed means it's always going to have one of thoes advantages over something else. Which is really what I was getting at.

[hausdorff space]

I think it may be (I'll check later), but being some of them minions/hordes models, I'd hate to later on need. updating to mkii.II checked, it is in budget.

Fair enough on the Hordes front.



Changing tune slightly.
You've listed the Warcasters you like the look of, what about units/models?
Working in a budget, determining which unit give you the most for your $$$, and how much you like the unit, should help with your decisions considerably.
As you are building small and looking to perhaps later expand, I'd highly suggest that if you buy any jacks, at least one of them should be a heavy... which should be magnetised in some way (which is a very easy thing to do).

[Jake the Dog]

I like the look of all of them. From the Dawnguard to Mage hunters. Though I haven't seen how the Stormfall archers look.

Now that I think about it, Mage hunters Strike Forces, Houseguard Riflemen, and Dawnguard Invictors are the best bang per buck in units (8pts for $30, 8pts for $33, 10pts for $35 respectively). All have ranged weapons coincidentally...lol.

[Jake the Dog]

I like the look of all of them. From the Dawnguard to Mage hunters. Though I haven't seen how the Stormfall archers look.

Now that I think about it, Mage hunters Strike Forces, Houseguard Riflemen, and Dawnguard Invictors are the best bang per buck in units (8pts for $30, 8pts for $33, 10pts for $35 respectively). All have ranged weapons coincidentally...lol.

How is this?
Kaelyssa -7
-Chimera 6
-Chimera 6
-Phoenix 10
MHSF
DG Invictors

Add UA to one Unit
35 Total: $136-137
Alternatively, add both UAs by downgrading the warjacks (adds $8-10):
-Chimera to Griffon
-Chimera to Gorgon, Phoenix to Hydra
-Both Chimeras to Gorgons
-Phoenix to Masticore
-etc.

[hausdorff space]

Why Kaelyssa? I think Ravyn would run that better.
...and I personally think you have too many jacks.

How about this:

Ravyn, Eternal Light
Chimera
Manticore
Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt
Stormfall Archers (Leader and 3 Grunts)
Arcanist
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios
Mage Hunter Assassin

- comes to $130.

(A&H and Eiryss can be used with your Khador.)
The focus of the list is the Invictors fire base, with snipe, mini-feat, and Ravyns feat any enemy model in LoS and their not too shabby range, are DEAD. This si suplemented by the ROF 3 Manticore, who's also a melee beast, and the AOEs of the Stormfall. Eiryss and the MHA provide separate threats, and the Chimera allows you to cast spells over a great distance, keeping Ravyn a litle safer.
A&H up the pain, and allow you to get around anti-'ranged attack' effects.

You could swap in Kaelyssa, but with a ranged army I don't think she adds anywhere near as much as Ravyn.

[Jake the Dog]

Hehe, I'm a jackman, warjacks are what define Warmachine, so I tend to build with 3, lol. Warjacks are what attracted me to WM. Hmm, if Ravynn/Kaelyssa run only two, maybe Vyros it is (the OP list or yours).

Can Garryth or Rahn run 3 jacks well?

On a unrelated note, when painting Ret, would it be better to prime white?

[hausdorff space]

Hehe, I'm a jackman, warjacks are what define Warmachine, so I tend to build with 3, lol. Warjacks are what attracted me to WM. Hmm, if Ravynn/Kaelyssa run only two, maybe Vyros it is (the OP list or yours).

Can Garryth or Rahn run 3 jacks well?With arcanists and jack marshalls, any caster can run a list with more than two jacks. But the list needs to take it into account. - I don't think Kaelyssa, Ravyn or Garryth jack heavy lists make the most of the casters.

Overall, Vyros and Rahn run jacks best. People will probably disagree with me (and say we don't have one), but Vyros is our jack caster.



On a unrelated note, when painting Ret, would it be better to prime white?That depends on your colours scheme ;)

[Jake the Dog]

Oh, I agree. Bird's eye + Flank read: "add 2+ jacks". He is the definite Ret 'jack caster until PP makes a better one. Looks like Vyros it is.

If I go with Ret (I'm figuring out a way to get the FOW Book along with [or close to] getting a 35pts army, if I can, I think I'll go with them. Having the Khador one is tempting me not to, but if I do, I at least have Khador's side of the god-robbing storyteller ;) ) I would get them painted like the studio scheme or close to it, I'm a sucker for official/canon stuff. Since it is like 70%-80% white, I think white primer is the best choice.

[FranzGrenstein]

I ran 3 arcnodes w/ Rahn fine @ 75, granted I had 2 arcanist. If you play RoS you will find that the strenght of the army lies in its infantry and not its 'jacks. Khador's thing is 20 plus armor 'jacks, the highest armor we can come up with is 20 and thats with Vyros IR. So you are going to be out of your comfort zone.

I am not trying to discourage you, I just want you to come in to the faction w/ eyes wide open if you do decide to start a RoS army.

[Jake the Dog]

I ran 3 arcnodes w/ Rahn fine @ 75, granted I had 2 arcanist. If you play RoS you will find that the strenght of the army lies in its infantry and not its 'jacks. Khador's thing is 20 plus armor 'jacks, the highest armor we can come up with is 20 and thats with Vyros IR. So you are going to be out of your comfort zone.

I am not trying to discourage you, I just want you to come in to the faction w/ eyes wide open if you do decide to start a RoS army.

It is sad to hear that. Not to sound sceptical but I think all factions should be able to run jack lists. Mercs, Khador, Cryx, Menoth, and Cygnar can.