Keep me playing Legion please. [Archive]

blitzmonkey

03-24-2010, 08:01 PM

This isn't meant to be a doom and gloom post. I REALLY want to keep playing LoE, but as it is, I am no longer having fun with them. My local Meta is a fun group. They are not national competitive players, but they are skilled. Arguably, I am the best if not close to the best player in the local meta though.

All through the the field test, I was rocking left and right. Granted, we did have some op stuff, but I knew and acknowledged that. Since the Jan. 29th update, I have won 2 games out of around 10. Both games I won due to my opponent making huge mistakes and not by me "outplaying" them.

So a combination of bad dice rolling, not getting the playstyle anymore, and an overall sickness of getting called overpowered makes me not want to play LoE anymore.

My usual advice to other players is to take a break from the game for a while and come back to it. But as I have said many times before, if this were the Legion I was introduced when I first started playing, I don't think I would have picked them.

So with all the *****ing over with, what the hell am I missing? I get the general synergies with locks and beasts and whatnot. I get the general roles of what things are supposed to do.

I read Necra's post about diverse metas and whatnot. So someone, please give me some tips, as I am just going to start over assuming I know nothing about the game. That, or give me a list that stomps face as I am tired of losing and just want to get a win under my belt at this point.

Necra-Chi

03-24-2010, 08:10 PM

It doesn't sound like you need to win to rekindle your love for the faction. Its sounds like, like me, you need to stop and just relearn to appreciate the models for how awesome they are, fall in love with the faction concept again, and then take a fresh look at the tactics.

I have done this by getting some new models painted and revisiting some old models I haven't played for a while and getting stuck in.

In other words, play Legion because you want to play dragons, ogres and evil elves, ninjas, sorcerers, samurai, mutants and chestbursters, all lead by a demon prince. Then figure out how to kick butt with it, not the other way around.

BTW what has my diverse meta thread got to do with it?

blitzmonkey

03-24-2010, 08:13 PM

Just stating I've read posts about playing LoE.

And I want to play all of those things. But it feels like an uphill battle from the moment I sit down. As for the models being awesome, I sure they are....but they aren't for me. Raptors single handley have won me most of my games as of late. I want a faction that strikes fear into my opponent. As of lately, it is just a big laughing stock.

Necra-Chi

03-24-2010, 08:38 PM

People are actually laughing at you? Or your faction? Or is it you doing the laughing?

blitzmonkey

03-24-2010, 08:54 PM

It's me doing the laughing. Some friends are as well. My local meta is very conscious of the Legion changes and are trying to work with me on re-learning them. I just don't get them really.

The game seems VERY paper-rock-scissors to me now. And I don't like that.

Northern Ronin

03-24-2010, 09:08 PM

So I started playing just soon enough to start getting a feel for Mark I Legion, thus, most of my experience has been Mark II as a whole, so I'll have a fairly biased or limited views on the matter. I'd agree with Necra-Chi that play the faction you like the idea of, then worry about how to win with them (If that's not Legion, then so be it in my eyes).

However, the question is, why DID you pick up Legion and stick with them in Mark I?

blitzmonkey

03-24-2010, 09:10 PM

First, I loved the fluff. I like the arrogance of Everblight.

Second, I loved calling the shots. I sat the pace for games.

Third, I loved the psychological aspect of playing Legion.

Onimura

03-24-2010, 09:53 PM

I can respect the posters Statements. When I bought my started box ( as soon as hordes started and was available way back in the day) And I chose them for well the same reasons...

Hi we are legion...our leader is an Ogrun who has the soul gem(effectivly) of a dragon shoved in to his chest...he has made a bunch of eyeless dragon spawn that are the tai awesome!

We have three casters...two of them are elven women who will mess up your little world. we have shirtless samurai, beast that fly around and do crazy things like breath super hot ash on people! And little miney beast that are...miney...no really! their like little rabidness puppies...oh and did I mention out main caster has a FREAKING DRAGONS SOUL in his gut...

thats like saying the Iron lich has Toruk's eyeball in his floating skull...but better.

And from that point we only got better...well kinda...we had the Centorian VS a stormclad Problem with a large portion of our models... IMO. However your right the faction as a whole was something that always made people in my LS go...."ohhhhhh great here we go..."

I mean in the old days I honest to god had a Press ganger check my list for a tourney when I was playing Legion and blink look at me and say" Oh...that's just ****ing mean." and I didn't even win...we struck fear in to peoples hearts because we were on the table....

Now or days I can set my stuff down and hear "Oh he brought Legion..." That is not to say that I still don't enjoy the faction but I do believe that there has been a visible shift in the mentality and perception of the group as a whole towards the faction.

That aside, I think we came off... beast and caster wise pretty damn good...unit wise...large hit and miss, and solo wise pretty nicly.

What I have come to understand after playing my legion recently is that...they are a whole different set of tools. the play stile is less glass cannon, or thunderbolt slung by paper wizard and more...well versatile.

Necra-Chi

03-24-2010, 10:37 PM

I cannot relate to the sentiment of no longer being able to set the terms of battle.

blitzmonkey

03-24-2010, 10:55 PM

I cannot relate to the sentiment of no longer being able to set the terms of battle.

I can't control the terms of battle anymore. That is what I am asking about. I can't control it anymore. How the hell do I do it now?

Necra-Chi

03-24-2010, 11:03 PM

Example

E-Lylyth, all stealth army.
Terms of battle: Barring the rare anti-stealth ability, you will be conducting this battle with melee or very close ranged ranged attacks only. I on the other hand will be shooting you to my hearts content and then using melee to kill off the stragglers or punch a hole just large enough to insert an armour piercing tail or a few "handcannon" shots to end the game.

E-Thags and Typhon
Terms of battle: You don't get to have infantry and you cant afford for your caster to be anywhere remotely close to the battle. FYI I'ma getchoo too.

:)

blitzmonkey

03-24-2010, 11:19 PM

Tried both. Apparently, I have just have had bad match ups crossed with bad rolls.

Gun mages tore me apart.

Can't punch a hole in stryker.

Butcher has laughed at me as his jack wall killed me.

The list goes on and on.

Shadowspite

03-24-2010, 11:43 PM

I dictate the battle by outgunning my opponents generally, we have a LOT of shooting, and most of it is pretty damn powerful, and with all our fury management, costs us very little fury.

force them to engage on your terms, with Eyeless sight and the plethora of sprays, wings, pathfinder, and hunter, its rare we don't get the alpha strike

typically I use a couple ranged beasts with striders/Totem Hunter/Deathstalkers as the front line, shooting priority targets. and Legion can out shoot almost anyone I've found, Cygnar can match us about, but that's it.

then have the second wave waiting to countercharge, or simply have such a huge threat range that if they see the throat, to charge right past our front line and still hit the target (Carn's and Typhon Exemplify this with massive ranges on assault/Charge gunfighter)

only against Menoth have I felt I lost the initiative, and sometime Karchev and his Tow Stuff, but for the most part I manage to dictate my losses as well as theirs.

Zazoo

03-24-2010, 11:54 PM

I hadnt played much last year and decided to start again with MKII, initially I struggled to get to grips with how Legion played in MKII and was quite despondant.
But somewhere along the line things came together and Im winning far more than Im losing and almost everyone I play has that old saying "Ohh no its legion".

I have to agree with necra, you have to shelve all your old preconceptions and start from scratch.
Legion has a lot going for it and once you find out what those things are you will once again love them and start winning again.

The first thing Id recommend you do is play a caster you have not played in a long time. pThag, pLylyth whatever.
This will help you think of ways to win with a caster you are not used to playing.

amphoterik

03-25-2010, 03:50 AM

Butcher has laughed at me as his jack wall killed me.

The list goes on and on.

I am about to post a new thread about this one. Look for it.

Top

03-25-2010, 04:02 AM

Blitzmonkey: have you been using any Warmongers? You can spread them out with the new formation coherency rules, and there's not too much that's Fearless in Warmachine these days. This is not a solution by any means, just one tool of many which I don't see used around my town.

-Top

blitzmonkey

03-25-2010, 06:27 AM

Here, I will post a mini-report of my last game.

I was using:

pThag
Shredder
Angel
Typhon
Max Unit of Mongers + Chief
Min Unit of Raptors

He was using:
pButcher
Mechaniks
Iron Fang + UA
Widowmaker Marksmen
Kodiak
Juggernaught
Marauder
Great Bears
Mortar Crew
(I think thats it)

I went first.

My set up was Angel on the left to threaten a flank. The Mongers plus Typhon held the middle with Thag. The Raptors were on the right flank. The shredder was in between Thag and Typhon. His deployment was the Kodiak and Marksmen on my Angels side, Marauder on the right, and everything else in the middle.

My first turn: Put Dragon Blessing on Angel. Put E-Healing on Thag and Typhon. Cast Fog of war. Mongers ran up 10 inches. Raptors Advanced. Angel Ran to a hill.

His turn: Iron Fang ran and popped mini-feat to shieldwall engage my mongers. He passes fear check. Butcher put Iron Flesh (I think) on them. Everything else either ran or advanced. Mortar crew whiffed.

My Turn: This is the hurt turn. First thing I do is decide to free up my mongers first. I need an 8 with the Chief, and 7s with everything else because they have line of sight to the Chief. Chief goes...misses. The next 4 out of 5 mongers go and miss. One monger hits and kills. Berserk to hit and not kill. Suck. Shredder goes rabid and tries to free up a corner. Misses. Again....misses. Typhon advances and sprays a nicely tight grouped great bears. Going again 13/14. Need 7s with Typhon with spray. Spray and miss with all 3. Spray again. Hit with 1. Killed, but he rolled tough. Third spray. Hit the other 2 and killed. He rolled tough. Really? Ok. Advance Raptors up to take shots in great bear. One hits and kills. The other 2 hit and kill....you guessed it he rolled tough on the last one. Caused fear check and he failed. Yay. Got that going. I Light Calvd moved. One to engage the Mauader who has a charge lane to Typhon, one in front of Typhon to keep lane from juggernaught clogged up. Thagrosh casts obliterates on the officer behind the the shield wall. Takes out like 2. Yay......really?

Ok, so the star of the show is getting ready to go. The Angel with the big 16 AP attack charges the Kodiak. I need 4s to hit.....and whiff. Woot. At this point, I am ready to throw my models. For fun, I roll my damage just to see what I would have done.......6,6,5......yeah....would have done 23 damage.

His turn: He doesn't kill angel, but hurts her a bit. He kills 2 mongers. So here is where it gets silly. Maurader pistons the raptor in front of him twds my raptor in front of Typhon. He needs a 6 on distance.....and gets it....killing that raptor and knocking the guard in front of typhon down. Woot.

He then blasts them both with mortar, then charges Typhon with the Jugger and destroys him.

I then concede.

That is as best as I can remember what happened.

possiblyarowbot

03-25-2010, 06:45 AM

There's your problem, you conceded. And engaged his jacks. They're speed 4 dude. They have to run just to match your walking speed. Go around them or slam through them.

I fail to see a whole lot as being changed since MK I. We still get to ignore stealth, cover, forests, clouds, concealment and, mostly, rough terrain. Flight is the way it was in MK I during Saeryn's feat...

blitzmonkey

03-25-2010, 06:51 AM

I conceded because 1. Time Restraints and 2. I was not having any fun. When I stop having fun, I stop playing.

As for running around them or slamming them, I could not with that list. Typhon was not in range to slam and the Angel can't.

As far as engaging them, what choice did I have? If I didn't try to take out one of them, I was dead next turn. He had 2 jacks on the flank, so I couldn't go around. I HAD to make one of the flanks fall to challenge his back line.

Raithon

03-25-2010, 07:12 AM

blitzmonkey

03-25-2010, 07:20 AM

It is a decently sized community. As for tricks, what tricks? I can't get any of them to work. That is my point in posting.

CorporateSellout

03-25-2010, 07:59 AM

...You're right the faction as a whole was something that always made people in my LS go...."ohhhhhh great here we go..."

I mean in the old days I honest to god had a Press ganger check my list for a tourney when I was playing Legion and blink look at me and say" Oh...that's just ****ing mean." and I didn't even win...we struck fear in to peoples hearts because we were on the table....

Now or days I can set my stuff down and hear "Oh he brought Legion..." That is not to say that I still don't enjoy the faction but I do believe that there has been a visible shift in the mentality and perception of the group as a whole towards the faction.
I think that shift was on purpose. After all, the reason people reacted like they did was because Legion did have some really cheap bull$h!+ back in MKI, and the goal of MKII was to get rid of those elements that literally made players not want to play the game. You can lament the loss of opponents' moaning, eye-rolling, and begrudging their decision to sit down across from a Legion player, but imo it was the appropriate goal of PP's MKII transition.

However, the good news is that if you can get over the loss of the "Scary Legion Staredown" and the title of "Most Hated Faction", you'll find that there is still a fun and balanced game going on behind the scenes for Legion players embracing MKII. Legion still has some awesome tricks like added momentum when they start killing things (from rules like snap-fire, overtake, cleave, swift hunter, berserk, etc.), sprays that can threaten most models that mistakenly thought they were safe, and fury manipulation that keeps beasts at peak performance. Legion still has a lot going on, but now with balance! :D

blitzmonkey

03-25-2010, 08:18 AM

I think that shift was on purpose. After all, the reason people reacted like they did was because Legion did have some really cheap bull$h!+ back in MKI, and the goal of MKII was to get rid of those elements that literally made players not want to play the game. You can lament the loss of opponents' moaning, eye-rolling, and begrudging their decision to sit down across from a Legion player, but imo it was the appropriate goal of PP's MKII transition.

However, the good news is that if you can get over the loss of the "Scary Legion Staredown" and the title of "Most Hated Faction", you'll find that there is still a fun and balanced game going on behind the scenes for Legion players embracing MKII. Legion still has some awesome tricks like added momentum when they start killing things (from rules like snap-fire, overtake, cleave, swift hunter, berserk, etc.), sprays that can threaten most models that mistakenly thought they were safe, and fury manipulation that keeps beasts at peak performance. Legion still has a lot going on, but now with balance! :D

I was not one to abuse the general hated tactics of LoE in Mk. 1. I can remember fielding 2 seraphs only a few times, as fielding more than 1 is something I rarely did.

And those aren't tricks to me. As for the sprays, I have only gotten 1 spray assassination to date. It was glorious. But generally, the target has too high defense or too high armor to crack it effectively.

Again, I think you and others are missing the point of my post.

I am not arguing if Legion is balanced. I frankly don't care. They are underpowered in my opinion, but that is a different argument. They could be overpower, or balanced and it would not phase me. What I want to know is what the heck am I doing wrong? How do I go from rocking face during the Field Test to getting my butt stomped with one update?

I am asking what does Legion do? I know the theory, but I can't get the application to work.

Am I just unlucky enough to have bad match ups?

Here, I'll list the "usual" casters I see:

Cygnar:
Both Strykers
Both Caines
(there are others, but these are the most common)

Khador:
Both Butchers
Both Vlads
Irusk

Cryx:
Both Skares
Both Denegras

Menoth:
Both Sevs
Both Kreoss

Mercs:
Both Magnus

Circle:
Varies a ton

Skorne:
Don't have a real presence here

Troll:
Both Madraks
Grissel

Legion:
I am the only Legion player.

I know in general we ignore stuff. But I can't ignore the stuff they throw down. The way the play and set-up, the *jusy fly by* doesn't work. I HAVE to make a flank fall. Almost EVERY game I have won in MKII against this meta is won by me making a flank fall. If I ignore the flanks, I lose. If I torpedo the center, I lose. If I dance around, I lose. If I take out a flank, I win. This isn't me lamenting for MK I. I don't miss it. This is me saying "I want to play my damn faction again and it just isn't fun anymore to play, but I want it to be."

Nargacuga

03-25-2010, 08:20 AM

blitzmonkey

03-25-2010, 08:30 AM

Oh, I am not dumping them totally until the force book is released. Thanks for the input though, but as it stands, I am very unimpressed with Legion. It's a shame too, as I usually was the bright and chipper "Just wait until the final rules guys, PP won't screw your faction over" guy during both field tests......

amphoterik

03-25-2010, 08:37 AM

I find that playing a different faction for a while does wonders in clearing my head and getting me back on track for legion. If you have the resources, play a slow, tough faction for awhile. Learn about them. Then, when coming back to legion, you'll have a new outlook.

EDIT: it sounds like you've stagnated. It's all biorhythms. I would just take a short break if I were you. Come back refreshed.

blitzmonkey

03-25-2010, 08:40 AM

I have skorne, which I never play nor did I ever want to. I got them for a friend who had financial problems, but ended up not playing. I also have Retribution.

I don't care for Skorne really.

amphoterik

03-25-2010, 08:42 AM

Play ret. Its what I do.

Also, you gotta be watching this thread like I hawk, I only posted like 30 seconds ago :)

Onimura

03-25-2010, 10:23 AM

The idea the Legion was/is broken is the triumph of perception over reality, but that is for another thread.

If you are seriously considering dumping Legion (and I certainly understand the temptation). Wait until the final rules are released.

Menoth players were in the same spot at the end of the WM MKII FT and when all was said and done, PP put out a great set of rules.

Examples:

TFG UA got minifeat
Cleansers got incinerate order
Harbinger got Awe and a new feat
Testament of Menoth got Omegus back
and more...

So don't give up yet~

Agreed with all of above. The list that had the pressganger call Shenanigans only had one Seraph in it, and as I said I didn't win that tourney.

The main thing IMO, that has changed perspective on my LGC is the rule on reeving. I'm still not a fan of the new ruling.

Though I am almost certain it was put in place so that we Legion players can't 'Pop-corn-Shredder' any more...but the fact that if you take enough damage to HAVE to transfure to an already near dead beast and said beast dies, and you don't get the fury, and next turn your cutting your already hurt self to get back fury nine times out of ten you've done 50% of the work for your opponent.

Ofcourse this may just be me.

Malkav13

03-25-2010, 10:30 AM

I'd recommend relearning the faction. Forget about all of the previous stuff that we've had in MKI and the field test. Look at everything from an all new perspective.
Also, try making a few lists for pure fun. Tell yourself that this list is not supposed to be super competitive, but fun. Make up a them and run with it. Doing this always helps recharge my batteries, especially if I can make my opponent do a double take when they see my list. If it wins, all the better.

amphoterik

03-25-2010, 10:41 AM

Agreed. Personally, I have trouble making lists I can't win with. I think pretty much everything we have is very viable. Just don't let your scissors get charged by rock. Instead, cut the paper holding rock up. Think like a Jedi.

Yertle4

03-25-2010, 11:48 AM

Move on.
If you're not enjoying playing the faction as a whole, you either move on to another faction OR restrict yourself to that part of the faction you like.

blitzmonkey

03-25-2010, 11:48 AM

I keep trying it I guess. I can't stress that I have tired that. Thanks for the encouragement anyways. :)

Side note, I hate Jedi.

AngryElf

03-25-2010, 01:24 PM

in your example game all i saw was poor dice rolls, or places where you maybe could have boosted a to hit roll and got better odds. failing dice rolls doesn't necessarily mean anything good or bad about a faction. can you explain a bit more what you think is lacking maybe? might be some minds here to help out.

Necra-Chi

03-25-2010, 01:56 PM

blitzmonkey you're going to have to get into specifics about what is happening that is different to the field test that is causing you to lose significantly more.

I can't relate to you saying you can't see our tricks. tricks are just tricks, they don't win games against teh experienced, but they are still there. Have you tried the Rhyas angel catapult lately. You know the old one with massacre? The one that with careful use of the feat still gets your angels over teh enmey lines without free strikes. the one that can deliver a MAT 8 angel to the opponnet caster with an attack to make and 4 fury to burn from something ridiculous like 19" away. The one that's far more feasible due to shepherds, sorceress and sprint than it was in Mk1.

Or anything with E-Lylyth's feat and her bow and shooty warbeasts catching the opponent dead before they even knew the game was on.

Edit: I'll re-emphasise what someone else said about trying another faction for a while. I played a lot of protectorate for a bit and when returned to Legion it was like "OMG, I don't get to say NO! to everything but look at the speed! Oh the speed!"

blitzmonkey

03-25-2010, 02:52 PM

To Angry:

I was just posting an example and the latest at that as I can't remember much of other games past that.

To Necra:

That is the problem Necra. I don't know what is wrong exactly. As for trying another faction, that is good advice, but in all honesty, the thought of playing the game in general is disgusting. I know the tricks. They aren't helping. Most attempts to set the pace fail.

Heck, even with a Mat 8 Angel, I have been missing against armor 14 as of lately.

Necra-Chi

03-25-2010, 02:58 PM

With the language you're using it sounds a little like burn out in general. I suggest a brief (1-2 month) rest and getting some painting done.

Shadowspite

03-25-2010, 03:13 PM

definitely sounds like burn out, with a side of dice hate.

regularly missing def 14 with mat 8 is just bad dice, I know everyone says its the game, just play it, but when its repeated dice hate, its really hard to just write off (I am a victim of this, had a streak where I literally was rolling a 5 avg on 2d6, and a 7 avg on 3d6 for about a month, and i was just getting pissed every game)

nothing you can really do about dice hate other than just wait for it to go away. or take a break in general from the game. I found that once I got some other hobbies, my dice hate didn't go away, but I don't get quite as frustrated by it any more. overall I think I'm more fun to play against now, and have more fun in general with the game. also, only playing 1-2 games a week helps stave off burn out for me.

Necra-Chi

03-25-2010, 03:15 PM

I have dice hate. That can't be the reason. I just overpower my dice hate with more cheesing it up and playing better.

Shadowspite

03-25-2010, 03:21 PM

there's a point where no amount of cheese or good playing can counter dice hate.

I've been there. its just frustrating to play the game when absolutely NOTHING functions as it should.

ex. Mark 1, against Skorne in a small 350 game, abused Cyclops killed my Seraph in 2 hits, Lylyth shot up a Titan over 2 turns, it was down to about 12 life, Carn assaulted it, and didn't kill the titan maxing itself out. shredders failed to inflict even 1 damage to either the titan or Cyclops.

how could I have played better? I couldn't go for Morghoul, he was hiding behind a rock. and this was my second games of hordes ever, so I was still kinda a noob, but that is jsut REALLY bad dice, and nothing I could do would have helped kill the titan.

blitzmonkey

03-25-2010, 05:17 PM

I don't paint btw. I have carpal and painting and I don't mix.

Necra-Chi

03-25-2010, 07:03 PM

I also think we just need some new releases to spice things up again.

alchahest

03-25-2010, 08:23 PM

yeah but we didn't place first or second in the tournament, so we don't get to see our new stuff. you'll have to wait til ______ to see what we're getting!

Necra-Chi

03-25-2010, 10:12 PM

Remember success in that campaign was directly proportional to number of players, so its just a way for PP to please the most players first. ;)

Raithon

03-25-2010, 10:42 PM

Bah id suggest a break too, you got plenty of models and the copy of the feild tests finalized? PROXY and screw around. Sillyness or randomness can get you out of whatever place your at, or maybe just take a small break from mini gaming. But you better come back, your thaggy has a craveing for BLOOD with the taste of glue.

CorporateSellout

03-26-2010, 05:11 AM

That is the problem Necra. I don't know what is wrong exactly. As for trying another faction, that is good advice, but in all honesty, the thought of playing the game in general is disgusting. I know the tricks. They aren't helping. Most attempts to set the pace fail.

Heck, even with a Mat 8 Angel, I have been missing against armor 14 as of lately.
Sounds like an isolated patch of bad luck unless Legion has new rules that disallow rolling above a five, :p, I mean who's rolling the dice you or your carnivean? It might be time to realize the fact that in every game someone has to lose... if losing bothers you that much, competitive gaming isn't for you because it's just part of the game sometimes. It's clearly not the rules, and I haven't had many similar problems or heard much of similar problems. Fact of the matter is, that in my experience and many others, Legion isn't losing every game. Say what you want, but my experience has shown me that MKII Legion has solid rules, and there's still plenty of stuff to do with our models.

-the end.

ricefrisbeetreats

03-26-2010, 06:26 AM

From what I've read, you seem to only be having fun when you're winning and right now, you're on a streak of bad luck.

Tuesday, I could have 1 shotted Borka. I missed...sucks, but hey, whatever.

It's fine to get a little frustrated, but I think you might just need a break. Take some time to do something else for awhile. Perhaps once the new releases come out in July, you'll be excited again to play. If not, sell your stuff and try a new faction or a new game altogether.

sholthaus

03-26-2010, 07:30 AM

I would suggest for a bit just stop trying to create competitive lists. Put together some far out, weird, or theme'y lists and play around with them. Pick a random model and spam it, or pick a random model and build a list to specifically enhance that model and what it can do. Try out some mega points battles, or multiple opponent games. Experience how the models play outside of the norm, and maybe rogue out some wins due to the unexpected / unpredictable lists you field on the table.

Creating new situations that would never happen normally when you build a list can give you a better perspective on the capabilities of models and how they can be used to win, when it comes down to putting together a tourney list or what not.

Bakemono

03-26-2010, 08:42 AM

I know in general we ignore stuff. But I can't ignore the stuff they throw down. The way the play and set-up, the *jusy fly by* doesn't work. I HAVE to make a flank fall. Almost EVERY game I have won in MKII against this meta is won by me making a flank fall. If I ignore the flanks, I lose. If I torpedo the center, I lose. If I dance around, I lose. If I take out a flank, I win. This isn't me lamenting for MK I. I don't miss it. This is me saying "I want to play my damn faction again and it just isn't fun anymore to play, but I want it to be."

There really isn't any nice way to put this but it sounds like you miss the ease of MKI play wherein strategy was backseat to 1-2 effective tactics. There is a difference between strategy and tactics. When you ask "who is the Legion now," you are really asking "what is that one tactic we are supposed to do which wins us the game?" There isn't one. There are lots of tactics but there is no one tactic which equates to push button play. Making a flank fall requires strategy. It also requires you to be in the position to follow up when said flank falls and manage to do it all without getting hammered on the other flank.

I despised playing Legion (against or as) in MKI because I thought they were dull. They had 1-2 basic tactics and that is what they did. I considered them the Necrons of Hordes. Learning to apply tactics is a good skill but if that is the only thing you bring to the game, it isn't that impressive. Strategy, as opposed to tactics, is improvisation and a method of shaping the overall battle to end up in conditions which will allow you to apply the tactics (your tools) to win. I rather like Legion in MKII and have been increasing my stock. I'm not thrilled by the lack of variety in competitive Warlocks, but I am more interested in the overall mix of models. The Legion can now be played by a wider variety of players (and styles) because the tools are there to accomidate said styles. You have stated that you want YOUR Legion back. You still have it. You can play MKI with anybody willing to dice with you. They aren't going to change MKII to give you back what you had before.

blitzmonkey

03-26-2010, 08:51 AM

Wow. This is making me not what to play anymore EVEN more. LOL

First point: It isn't if I win or not that bugs me. I lose. It is ok when I lose. I am getting TROUNCED. I mean there is no point to me even trying anything. The whole there has to be a winner and loser thing is well known by me, but I rather enjoy close games. I don't like when I totally tear the other guy up or vice-versa.

Second Point: Bakemono, I rarely used those tactics in MKI. I don't want a push-button army. I want a pre-Jan 29th army. That is what I mean. And my reply to the just fly by was response to someone saying just ignore their stuff and going for the heart. I am well aware there are multiple tactics with the army. What people aren't getting is I can't get any of them to work all of the sudden. That was my point in posting, which I regret doing in that I think the point of my posting is missed.

Pretend MKI didn't exist in my world. I frankly don't miss it. What I do miss is being able to use my army effectively.

No one still has posted any tactical tips at all. That is what this was meant to be. It was me going "Hey, apparently I am not getting the hang of this like I did prejanuary 29th, what am I missing now?" I appreciate everyone's attempt, but this further frustrates me with the game.

amphoterik

03-26-2010, 09:19 AM

Neutralyze

03-26-2010, 09:46 AM

I know what you mean. No worries. We use to have a hit and run tactic but now its either hit harder or be shredded. At smaller pt games I think we suffer against WM due to how much beasts cost and that legion is typically beast heavy when compared to other factions. That khador lists with many strong models is pretty tough and easily outnumberd what we bring

I use to be a vavid vayl players but now it seems I have turned more for Saeryn, ethags, elylyth and abby and mainly use specific locks against certain factions.

Neutralyze

03-26-2010, 09:50 AM

OK, here is a tactic for you. Using dual angeli, have one charge a jack wall, and then pop animus. This should open a hole for the second to fly in and kill casters or other important models. Be sure to get it right though, they die next turn :)

This is too situational$ tactics about position regarding opponents cannot be determined. Suggestions would be like use elylyth against cygnar with x models since the are favorable with her

Rave0183

03-26-2010, 11:21 AM

Welcome to the testing phase of a whole new meta. Just because we have what might be the final rules, doesn't mean we've figured it out. We've all had to learn our tactics from mk1 are not 100% viable anymore. There is no "Use this and you'll enjoy the faction." You enjoy the faction based on the game, the models YOU use. What I enjoy playing might disgust you completely. No one here should have to convice you to like your army. If you don't enjoy it anymore, I recommend www.bartertown.com. (http://www.bartertown.com.)
Find yourslef a new army...and convince yourself to like it.

SteakAndSpirits

03-26-2010, 02:18 PM

Personally, I think Blitzmonkey should continue to play Legion because he always keeps things positive, and his posts are always friendly and constructive.

-s&s

Neutralyze

03-26-2010, 02:47 PM

DOOM!!!!!! :p

CloudFang

03-26-2010, 04:08 PM

my suggestion: pick up a new cster and just play a bunch of games with a lot of different stuff.. have fun.. i learn exponentially more from losing than winning. also dont expect someone from the forums to write a paragraph that lets you then win your games.. tough it out. play, learn, change, then start winning. also MKII can change things depending on what your used to.. it may take a while to get through it.

also sometimes in life certain people are better at certain things than other people.. sorry. its ok..

and ultimately, if your not having fun then let it go.. its hobby.. you should be enjoying every second.

finally, i would say dont expect a tactica anytime soon.. the models change quicker than some peoples underpants and until the final results are released, whats the point? again just have some fun..

oh, and also in no way am i trying to belittle you.. not trying to be a jerk.

and i hope you stick with legion.. itll be ok.. besides can you really live without dragon spawn ninja elf ogrun fire breathing incubi having goodness? well...? can you?

blitzmonkey

03-26-2010, 07:57 PM

For all of the positive posters out there, thanks. After having a few days to calm down, I still feel the same. I am going to keep trying, but it is rather frustrating having to re-learn the army every month. I guess the silver-lining is now that there is a final document, I can take solace in solidifying my play style. I think a big part of my frustration has been dice rolls sucking crossed with a constant "My rules may change tomorrow." In retrospect, I think the field test went on too long. Yes, I am glad they took our input, but it is better to have a final army that sucks then an army constantly in limbo.

I am going to wait till the faction book to make my decision. In all honesty, that will decide if I stick with the game or not. So I hope it is good.

The other realization I had was I have been generally taking an easy on the guys around here for a long time to allow them to get the rules down and the feel of their faction down more. With that, I think my competitive edge got a bit dull as if you don't use it, you lose it. So I think I need to take the soft gloves off and start going for the throat more. Yes, I want the other guy to have fun, but I think I have forsaken my own fun for that.

For instance, in the Butcher game I mentioned, I forgot to mention that my opponent actually forgot to do blast damage on Typhon. I didn't do it on purpose, but I forgot as well. When his Jug chagred Typhon, he got Typhon to one hit point. As he was about to pass turn, he then was like "Oh, hey I forgot to do blast damage on Typhon." Normally, I wouldn't care and I let him do it, which killed typhon as he rolled a 6 and a 5.....but unfortunately, I think I may have to turn into that player that if you forgot to say it, you didn't do it.

Is that wrong?

Defenstrator

03-26-2010, 10:10 PM

No, if play has gone on then it's a bit late to start taking things back. Of course the people in our group are also the type to remind each other of stuff the other person has missed. Our feeling is that if something is suposed to happen then both players should try to make sure that it does. Players aren't expected to stop their opponent from making tactical mistakes, but book keeping errors are another matter.

hengist

03-26-2010, 10:24 PM

This is a game and if you play too strictly you may go from the frying pan to the fire. I do not mind reminding players if they have forgotten something and letting them decide if they wish to complete the particular action or not.

Losing on a continuous basis is somewhat disconcerting, especially if you were once the top player. However, when the rules change so does game to some degree. I do not think there is such a thing as a weaker or stronger faction at the moment. I have found that every player has a particular way of playing and they are most successful if they play to their strengths. A big advantage of the WM/H system is that there are so many options out there and each will provide a different style of game.

Yesterday I noticed a player playing what appeared to be a Cryx army. On closer inspection, he was using his pieces as proxies for a completely different army. There is no reason why you cannot do the same if you wish. Such an approach will allow any player to try out options he might otherwise ignore and thus find out what works for him. WM/H is a game which provides so many different variations that it seems unlikely that someone will run out of ideas for new ways to play.

You might right down the items that are the most important for you in game terms and then see if any of the factions/ combinations meets those requirements.

Ysthrall

03-27-2010, 10:01 AM

Well I've just read this thread, and feeling sorry and aggravated on your behalf, Blitzmonkey.

If nothing else, you've successfully communicated how you feel :p

Unfortunately, I haven't played my LoE since the field test ended, mainly because my primary faction is Cygnar, and I wanted to test them out thoroughly in MK2. So I can't offer much advice...

For the warmachine field test, for everything up to the publication of the damn forces book, I was saying "The units/etc will be different again", and they were. From field test to "Final PDF" to published rules, they changed every time. So, there's plenty of precedent.

As far as burnout goes, I can only concur with the previous posters that maybe you should try something else till the rules settle down. At that point there will be lots of people (me included) bouncing back to their hordes armies and trying out all sorts of new and horrible things on each other. And screwing up a lot. So everyone will be in the same boat as you.

Oh, and your meta match-ups, from my POV, look rather nasty.

Good luck, and I hope you feel better soon (hug).

Cervantes690

03-27-2010, 03:32 PM

I agree with Ysthrall, you did succeed in communicating how you feel and in a better way than most people could have done.

I have not played my Legion much since the FT, for I got burnt out over it. It got to the point that I started a new army.

I would suggest just playing a different army for a couple of weeks to take a breather, and wait for the FoH book. I honestly think that there will be some more changes.

Oh and one more thing, fire your dice, put them in the freezer or punish them somehow. If you have a casino near by, go buy some used dice that they sell for around 50 cents a pop or less. I had the same issues that you seem to be having with your dice. I got the casino ones, and my issues has seem to have gone away.

joedj

03-28-2010, 08:59 AM

blitzmonkey, sorry you've had such a bad run. I had the same with my MK I Trolls, for 3 years ;)

I also play Legion, it's my 'Cygnar' (as Trolls are my 'Khador' analog). I gravitate toward the powerful ranged first strikes, but never go with all shooty, 'cause playing against MK II warjacks means I'll need lots of small-based cheap troops to block opposing charges from my expensive PC 'beasts (Typhon/Angelius particularly). Legion's medium-based troops are not as well designed for this as Troll-types, LOE's being less resilient.

Looking at the first army you posted, I believe the use of many large/medium based grunt models in that particular army limited your ability to lose models for tactical purposes. I.e. more points concentrated in fewer models increases the probability you'll lose greater chunks (PC points) of your army than your opponent will in any engagement. While this doesn't matter if you successfully assassinate, the prep-work to that assassination usually involves removing more opposing or key-placed opposing models.

My MK I Legion did not have to use as much of a combined-arms approach to win because 'jacks could be ignored, troopers could be avoided. General reduction in overall threat ranges has made all models less avoidable/ignorable! Thus attrition is a game that all factions must play to some extent. As a Troll-first player, it's something I don't particularly mind, since assassination-run is much more rare coming from my Troll army. It's more difficult with Legion, as I'm always looking for that scalpel to the throat approach...