Champion Hero will benefit from Tactician

[lich lord burns]

Thought you should all know - the Trollkin Hero is supposed to benefit from Tactician.

Asked and answered in the Rules forum.

Link (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=1429)

[Sevwall]

And the forums let out a resounding 'meh'.

[Silopolis]

I'd love it if the Long Riders benefitted, as well. Aren't they supposed to be Champions on Buffalos?

[Chadwick]

I stand firm in the assertion that the Hero's tactician ability is actually really amazing for the Champions. I can only assume everyone's "meh"ing about it because they haven't tried it yet.

I used to run my champs in a V formation, so they'd benefit from screening and the like, but there's no reason to do that anymore. The most effective unit block now seems to be to run with 3 champs up front in a line, and 2 directly behind them in the gaps, like an upside-down pyramid with no tip. The Hero gives such amazing flexibility to this formation, allowing the back champs to charge forward, and the front champs to charge off to the side (front left charging far to the right, front right charging far to the left, middle champ going wherever he can fit).

The very last game I played I got great use from this. Beast-09 was about an inch and a half in front of my champs, and somehow failed to kill even one of them with his thresher. A Kodiak was about an inch and a half to the left of Beast. I put Rage on three of the champs, activated Stone Strength, and got all 5 champs to get a charge off. Without the Hero I would have been lucky to get 2 charges, but I got all 5. Both 'Jacks were completely destroyed, which would have been much less likely without the charge dice.

[manymoles]

Must just say it again: AT LAST :)

[Sevwall]

I've never had much trouble moving my champs around, even when I have 10 of them on the field.

I repeat my 'meh'. Its about the worst Leadership ability he could give.

[PhoenixBlaze]

I'll add my "meh" to the list. Champs tripping over each other was never an issue for me. Ever.

But this is still nice. Like the Hero charging through the changes for some hurt, then the Champs charging through him and themselves in the initial and subsequent rounds of combat. That's something I'll be looking forward to, having more freedom to move around within combat to maximise damage.

Hopefully getting a game on tuesday, and I'll be using the champs with a hero, so we'll see what I can pull off with them.

I think it's a good ability for the Hero to give the champs. Anything more like a bonus to hit or something would be silly. IMO, the best would be to give the hero his 5" charge back, and inspire the champs to do the same but only on the turn he charges, making it a little more situational rather than outr-right "those weapon master, 8 damage, ARM 18 champs can now charge at 10" with the hero in your list".

[CodeRed97]

He's still decidedly "meh". When he gets Backswing back vs. Cleave, then I'll be excited.

[Gavriel]

Trollkin Champions Tactician ability might be cool if it conferred ranked attack on them. Considering Champions are mostly used as a wall unit it would be useful if my Pygs and Impalers could shoot through them.

[General Nemo]

I'd love it if the Long Riders benefitted, as well. Aren't they supposed to be Champions on Buffalos?

Nah, then they would have 8 wounds ;)

[Cannibalbob]

The Hero gives such amazing flexibility to this formation, allowing the back champs to charge forward, and the front champs to charge off to the side (front left charging far to the right, front right charging far to the left, middle champ going wherever he can fit).
.


How is tactician any different from just moving them in that order?

[Ravir]

How is tactician any different from just moving them in that order?

I've found myself in a situation where I needed to cross left to right to get everybody a full 3" of charge, and couldn't because of hitting each other's bases. Still, the Hero does feel much weaker than MkI.

[joedj]

Tactician working on the Hero, himself, seems right. In my mind though it suggests that PP is encouraging Trollblood players to field a lot of Champions.

8-10 Champs is nasty and effective, especially when they don't trip each other up. But also leads to less beasty play. It may not be the goal of the Hero's Tactician, but abilities generally lead to strategizing, which leads to tactics on the battlefield.

Will you ever field a Hero without Champs again? (I did field 2 without Champs in MK I on several occasions)

[rydar666]

The Hero still needs at least his Backswing ability restored and for him to benefit from Defensive Line. He should be feared, but so far my Champs are out performing him on the battle field.

As to the Tactician ability, it can come in useful when your Champs are trying to push forward and can simple pass thru each other to reach the enemy

[Chadwick]

How is tactician any different from just moving them in that order?

Glad you asked. Advance apologies for invoking MSpaint.

Click (http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5033/herotactics.jpg) for lols. No way I could have done that without the hero's tactician ability that wouldn't have resulted in several champs not getting charge dice, or free strikes. Was it corner case? Maybe, but I doubt it. Any time you have your champs clumped up (all the time, because of defensive line) and you want them to charge 1 or 2 targets, you'll probably have to go through something similar.

The biggest thing to me is just that it was easy. Thought about it for about 5 seconds and just started moving them. Voila, like that. Maybe that's not worth 3 points to you. That's fair, we all have different play styles. To be honest I wish he did more too, but I do find his tactician ability to be pretty danged useful.



Will you ever field a Hero without Champs again? (I did field 2 without Champs in MK I on several occasions)

Now THIS... this makes me sad. Because I used to field 2 heroes all the time in MK1 without bringing champs. They were easily my favorite single model both for their rules and their appearance. But with Cleave < Backswing, -1 ARM, -2 HP, and the nerf to retaliatory strike and relentless charge... eh... It's really really hard to justify the points. I can see myself taking one on occasion for Commander, but I'd like it much better if they still had backswing. Then they could at least be a relative threat to warjacks and warbeasts (if buffed correctly).

[Cannibalbob]

8-10 Champs is nasty and effective, especially when they don't trip each other up.



I would hope that 10 models for 20 points was effective, There would be big problems with that unit if not...

[Cannibalbob]

Click (http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5033/herotactics.jpg) for lols. No way I could have done that without the hero's tactician ability that wouldn't have resulted in several champs not getting charge dice, or free strikes. Was it corner case? Maybe, but I doubt it. Any time you have your champs clumped up (all the time, because of defensive line) and you want them to charge 1 or 2 targets, you'll probably have to go through something similar.

The biggest thing to me is just that it was easy. Thought about it for about 5 seconds and just started moving them. Voila, like that. Maybe that's not worth 3 points to you. That's fair, we all have different play styles. To be honest I wish he did more too, but I do find his tactician ability to be pretty danged useful.




That was pretty corner case. But looking at that diagram you could have achieved almost the same results with only one guy probably not getting a full charge without Tactician. That results in pretty much the same thing and saves 3 points.

Now you do make a point about it being easy. But again, I have played with Champs for years and never really found them to trip over themselves. Not enough that I really are one iota about Tactician. If he is going to buff Champions in some way I would rather it be something else.

[Chadwick]

Admittedly it's a crappy diagram :p

I've never had a ton of trouble with Champions tripping over themselves in the past, either, but that's just because that's how you've always had to use them. Although to be absolutely truthful, I don't think I ever even tried to get charges with them in MK1. I'd almost always just try to weather the storm with them, and then move them to cause maximum carnage on the next turn (position 3-4 next to infantry, position the last 1-2 near a jack or something big to take most advantage of concert).

The thing is, now I can form them up in that 3-in-front, 2-in-back formation and the back 2 are almost guaranteed to get to charge something. I likey charging weaponmasters.

Another part of it is, I got into playing timed games a while ago, and anything that makes my life on the battlefield easier, I'm all for. So there's that. :D

[Chadwick]

Here's another thought:

In MK1, the Hero didn't buff champions. Really, they buffed him. But now he buffs them with an ability that the general consensus seems to dislike or just not care about.

What if they removed his tactician ability, and gave him some other rule that had champs buffing him again? Not necessarily Inflamed from MK1, but something that let him benefit from champs in some way. Thoughts?

[Sevwall]

Righteous Anger, or whatever the +2, +2 is, when a champ dies.

Also unyielding.

[Elmiranda]

What if the Hero's Tactics applied to all Troll models within his command range?

He then be more a general leader as opposed to Champ specific. Having a bubble where the all Trolls can move freely would be very useful.

Maybe too useful.

[Sevwall]

Too useful ;). Only casters get that ability. And Xerxis seems to pay for it more, becaue his army takes better advantage of it. If we got it, it would have to cost like 6 points.

[Waaargh]

It honestly seems to me people are commenting and dismissing the tactic without having tried it in pratice, in this thread. If that is the case then at least try it out before giving the verdict.

[The Happy Anarchist]

We don't need to try it out because I have never in one game had my champs unable to charge because of getting in eachothers way.
Though I did play it and in fact did not have to worry about not getting in eachothers way. I had a hero, but I forgot about tactician because I didn't use it at all.
At best, it will allow you to have some champs charge past engaged champs on a second turn to hit other targets, but that is such a cornercase scenario that it is not worth the trouble.

I propose to make the Hero slightly less Champ focused. Give him this.

Righteous Fury - When one or more friendly Faction warrior models are destroyed by an enemy attack while in this modelʼs
command range, this model gains +2 STR and ARM for one round.
From the Seneschal. Instead of Leadership ability. That really fits the idea of the Hero, ups his damage potential and also works well with his resilience and getting the most out of retaliatory strike. As is, compared to Seneshcal he trades some a defense for an armor, a pow & cleave for two weapons and crit smite. Seneschal gets Aegis and Restoration, Hero gets Retaliatory Strike.

At that point he would be worth it, and it would be possible that Backswing would be OP vs Cleave. Not for certain, but I would be fine with the Hero with the sole change being Leadership ability for Righteous Fury.

[Cannibalbob]

What if the Hero becomes a sort of mini Fell-Caller with a single ability he can give to one Trollkin unit a turn.

In fact, it could stay as Tactician/Martial-Discipline. Just alter the ability so that it allows the unit with the ability to move/see through ANY Trollkin unit.

So in that case Champs could move past Kriel Warriors to engage, or Longriders could actually function as a second-wave attack unit. They could even decently pull off thier Bullrush order without falling over one another.

I would definitely use the Hero if he could give the ability out once a turn to any of our units.

[StarmanTTLB]

Why not give the Hero "Inspire" like the Fell Caller used to have? Or something similar?

I think that giving a +2/+2 buff to all friendly Faction warrior models within the Hero's CMD when the Hero charges would be AWESOME. Even if it was only a +2 MAT, *or* +2 POW, or a +1/+1. And more in-line with his battlefield role over what the Fell Caller did/does.

Or if the +2/+2 is too powerful, make it for any friendly Faction warrior models within 3" and/or LoS of the Hero on a turn he charges. A nice pocket of destruction!

[hooksy67]

i will throw my +1 in for the +1/+1 for all friendly faction models in his huge control range when he charges and let him keep cleave instead of backswing lets all flood the feedback with this it is just perfect for the hero a crazy guy shouting and screaming as he charges at the enemy very scotishlike

[Verjigorm]

We don't need to try it out because I have never in one game had my champs unable to charge because of getting in eachothers way.
Though I did play it and in fact did not have to worry about not getting in eachothers way. I had a hero, but I forgot about tactician because I didn't use it at all.
At best, it will allow you to have some champs charge past engaged champs on a second turn to hit other targets, but that is such a cornercase scenario that it is not worth the trouble.

I respectfully disagree. I've found that tactician can add alot of additional manuever to the Champs when you're in a tight battle. In fact, I've used the rule successfully to have an awesome Crusher turn with pMadrak.

I will say that I'd like to have Backswing, rather than Cleave. Or both, screw-it. Makes him an infantry-mulcher, but...well, so?

[StarmanTTLB]

I will say that I'd like to have Backswing, rather than Cleave. Or both, screw-it. Makes him an infantry-mulcher, but...well, so?Trollblood Whitemane? :rolleyes:

[Turtle]

I still think some kind of kill-buff on champions and himself would work out great as well and works well with tactician. The Hero can charge through the champions, kill a model buffing himself and the champions, then the champions charge through him to lay down a beating.

[lich lord burns]

He definately needs Backswing back. His job is to crack hard targets, not kill infantry.

I'd be happy losing Relentless Charge in favor of Righteous Fury. My Hero gets Rushed more often than not anyway, so I find it redundant.

Opinions?

[Verjigorm]

I still think some kind of kill-buff on champions and himself would work out great as well and works well with tactician. The Hero can charge through the champions, kill a model buffing himself and the champions, then the champions charge through him to lay down a beating.

Seriously, is buffing the Champions really a major issue? I mean between Charge of the Trolls and the Fell Caller, I rarely find myself struggling to bring the hurt with them.

[Chadwick]

He definately needs Backswing back. His job is to crack hard targets, not kill infantry.

I'd be happy losing Relentless Charge in favor of Righteous Fury. My Hero gets Rushed more often than not anyway, so I find it redundant.

Opinions?

I agree on both counts. His weaponmaster attacks are overkill on any model he'd want to cleave off of, and one weaponmaster attack just doesn't cut it against heavier targets. Even light jacks can take one hit and be ok most of the time.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Agreed. I find myself looking for a 3 point solo, and something to deal with infantry is generally not what I am looking for. Generally I am looking for something to benefit from Rush and Flaming Fists/Rage. Hero's would fill a great spot as a hard hitting solo. Especially with Righteous Fury.