Arc Node Comparison

[theummhmmguy]

No actual numbers posted, my spreadsheet got too big. But for a ranking of the MKII WM arcnodes based solely on the arcnodes ability to be just an arcnode without taking into account the offensive capability of the node.

HERE (http://trollbloodscrum.blogspot.com/2009/12/arc-nodes-part-2.html), are my results.

[AJ the Ronin]

No Chimera? That guy is very hard to tie up in combat and you do the disengaging move outside the model activation (meaning it won't screw with your turn plans). (http://www.google.com.pr/search?hl=en&ei=78gVS--FLoS0tgeGpZD_BA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CA4QBSgA&q=disengage&spell=1)

Anyways interesting list.
(http://www.google.com.pr/search?hl=en&ei=78gVS--FLoS0tgeGpZD_BA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CA4QBSgA&q=disengage&spell=1)

[barrel]

The Chimera is on the list. I believe it is #3.

[Demeritus]

One quick typo I noticed was when discussing the Phoenix you said it just barely barely beat out the Phoenix and I think you meant the Lancer.

Otherwise, interesting ****ysis and I am in agreement for the most part. In terms of defense I think it's a tossup between the Revenger and Lancer but Set Defense to make the Lancer 15 def vs a charge cannot be under estimated.

All in all interesting comparison.

[Bastion5]

Revenger is stilll best in the game

[theummhmmguy]

One quick typo I noticed was when discussing the Phoenix you said it just barely barely beat out the Phoenix and I think you meant the Lancer.

Otherwise, interesting ****ysis and I am in agreement for the most part. In terms of defense I think it's a tossup between the Revenger and Lancer but Set Defense to make the Lancer 15 def vs a charge cannot be under estimated.

All in all interesting comparison.

Typo fixed, and ranking fixed to show Lancer and Revenger tied. They have the exact same percentage on my list making them both second. The Chimera is easier to take out putting him fourth behind those two even though he has one of the best escape abilities around his node is easier to take out and his escape ability even easier.

[whitekong]

If you don't take offensive abilities into account, are you basing this on your opinion?
I guess I don't understand what you are basing your results on.

[jandrese]

Without the actual numbers I don't know what conclusions I can draw from this. I'm guessing cost was not a major factor because the Phoenix was on top.

[theummhmmguy]

If you don't take offensive abilities into account, are you basing this on your opinion?
I guess I don't understand what you are basing your results on.

The conclusions are based on defensive ability combined with ability to take hits wihtout losing the node as stated in the article.


Without the actual numbers I don't know what conclusions I can draw from this. I'm guessing cost was not a major factor because the Phoenix was on top.

Costs were indeed taken into account as you can see, other than the Pheonix the next five or so are light jacks. This is due largely to the cost of the model as each point of model cost versus the amount of damage it would have to take changes its value.

I ran each node Using three different hit ratings and each hit rating with three different attack POWs and dice. Then I took those results and averaged their ability to take a hit into the the ability of those hits to take out the arcnode. Then I compared that survivability with the cost of the model. The spreadsheet istself is quite long which is why I declined to post then numbers. I am working on a summary of numbers for those of you who are wanting them.

Again, offensive ability was not taken into account. My spreadsheets were based solely on the jacks ability to function as a node and stay alive to do it.

[Turbulence]

What? No love for the Scrapjack?

[theummhmmguy]

What? No love for the Scrapjack?

Yes and I almost left off Magnus's jack as well. The only reason for this is because even in faction, they are very caster specific. Though in retrospect I could plug the Scrapjack in.

[PPS_DC]

The conclusions are based on defensive ability combined with ability to take hits wihtout losing the node as stated in the article.

I ran each node Using three different hit ratings and each hit rating with three different attack POWs and dice. Then I took those results and averaged their ability to take a hit into the the ability of those hits to take out the arcnode. Then I compared that survivability with the cost of the model. The spreadsheet istself is quite long which is why I declined to post then numbers. I am working on a summary of numbers for those of you who are wanting them.
You must have used some... creative... numbers if the Guardian is dead last for being able to take a hit and still be an arc node.

[Faultie]

I am confused by the parameters and conclusions of your аnаlysis.
I'd like to see the numbers.

[theummhmmguy]

You must have used some... creative... numbers if the Guardian is dead last for being able to take a hit and still be an arc node.

No I tried to be as straightforward as possible. The Phoenix does so good becuase he takes nearly double the amount of damage to lose the arcnode in a single hit with even the heaviest of hitters. The other heavies have a few more boxes but for their point cost the light arcnodes take a hit better. It hardly means they take a hit better in general.

It's Defensive ability AND point cost factored in together. If you just go with defesive ability then most of the heavies are above the lights. Then you factor in cost and the Phoenix only wins because of how many extra damage it can take per point cost before it loses the node.

As I don't play Warmachine I really tried to be as objective as possible. This all started during the big discussion on Cryx ArcNode costs in the old Cryx forums so I wanted to see how legimate their argument was. What I found in relation to Cryx nodes compared to other faction nodes was that at Cost 5 factoring in ONLY their usefulness as an arcnode they are near the bottom of the list. At Cost 4 they are smack dab in the middle of the pack. At cost three they are better than any other node for their Cost and ability to function as a node.

Some of the other nodes on the list you don't take because they are a node, they have other offensive reasons to take them. But for most lights that are nodes, you bring them for their ability to function as a node and survive to do that job.

[jandrese]

So your damage model assumes that everybody always hits on column 3?

[Indy]

You must have used some... creative... numbers if the Guardian is dead last for being able to take a hit and still be an arc node.


And be cost-effective? I can see that. That said, offensive ability should be taken into account... since the Guardian's (and Phoenix's, and a few others, for that matter) 'escape strategy' is for them to just kill whatever is in front of them so they can arc again. That is important, since lights like the bonejacks and Lancer can't disengage so easily.

So, slightly flawed, but an interesting hypothesis!

[theummhmmguy]

So your damage model assumes that everybody always hits on column 3?

No, my damage model assumes the percentage chance to take out the arcnode with the hit. The results also factor in the nodes percent chance to be hit at all and the nodes ability to survive or avoid that damage to continue to function as a node past each successive attack.

It does not take into account that the node might be in melee nor does it take into account the nodes offensive ability. I am currently working on one to incorporate offense as well, but it will have to wait untill my Thesis is done.

[theummhmmguy]

And be cost-effective? I can see that. That said, offensive ability should be taken into account... since the Guardian's (and Phoenix's, and a few others, for that matter) 'escape strategy' is for them to just kill whatever is in front of them so they can arc again. That is important, since lights like the bonejacks and Lancer can't disengage so easily.

So, slightly flawed, but an interesting hypothesis!

agreed, but the task was much more varying than I thought it would be just for defense as their are many abilities that are hard to incorporate in their survival. i.e. things like Cygnars jacks and the Chimeras ability to move away as opposed to having a shield or set defense which are much more straightforward.

[SkinnyGuy]

Seeing this list just makes me sad that the faction that needs nodes the most has the worst of any other faction outside of mercs. I'm still holding out hope we get a new cool type of heavy node sometime instead of merely the likes of the Ripjaw.

[theummhmmguy]

Seeing this list just makes me sad that the faction that needs nodes the most has the worst of any other faction outside of mercs. I'm still holding out hope we get a new cool type of heavy node sometime instead of merely the likes of the Ripjaw.

For their cost, when functioning soley as a node two of the Cryx nodes are slightly above the average. Would Cryx want a heavy with a node? Dunno why they don't have one. One could also aruge that the power of Cryx spellcaster spell lists justifies an increased cost of their nodes to balance it out, though I'm inclined to think there is a better solution.
The biggest issue with Cryx nodes in general, when bringing them solely for the node, is the new point costing system. Cost three makes them too cheap, cost five makes them too expensive and cost four puts them in the middle of the road. truely their cost should probably be in the neighborhood of 3.7 but it is not possible with the new point system.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Actually, in my opinion the main thing your numbers don't reflect is the best stats for being an arc node. Taking a hit is one consideration. The bigger considerations are speed (for getting the node where it needs to be) and cost (for fitting more nodes or node + other items)

Cryx nodes are the best because they are cheap and fast and those are the most useful traits for arc nodes. Being 2/3s of the cost of other factions arc nodes is pretty useful, though the Defiler is pretty pricey.

You definitely need to factor in at least speed, though cost as a percentage of the list is much more important than just as a ratio to other abilities.

[Writer@Large]

For their cost, when functioning soley as a node two of the Cryx nodes are slightly above the average.
But that's only within the context of (1) relative DEF, (2) Point Cost, and (3) Chance of losing the Arc Node in one hit. As you yourself point out in your discussion, the Cryx nodes don't just lose their ANs in one hit--there's a very good chance that THEY will be taken out in one hit. The Lancer may lose its node in one hit, but it will also still be around to do other things/be repaired/etc. The Cryx node, one it's hit, is generally toast.

--W@L

[theummhmmguy]

But that's only within the context of (1) relative DEF, (2) Point Cost, and (3) Chance of losing the Arc Node in one hit. As you yourself point out in your discussion, the Cryx nodes don't just lose their ANs in one hit--there's a very good chance that THEY will be taken out in one hit. The Lancer may lose its node in one hit, but it will also still be around to do other things/be repaired/etc. The Cryx node, one it's hit, is generally toast.

--W@L

I factored in all defensive capabilities that I could reasonable represent including speed of the model and abilities like pathfinder. Thats why the project got too big to factor in offense as well. And I didn't include only the chance to lose the node in one hit, that was a good starting point though.

[SkinnyGuy]

For their cost, when functioning soley as a node two of the Cryx nodes are slightly above the average. Would Cryx want a heavy with a node? Dunno why they don't have one. One could also aruge that the power of Cryx spellcaster spell lists justifies an increased cost of their nodes to balance it out, though I'm inclined to think there is a better solution.
The biggest issue with Cryx nodes in general, when bringing them solely for the node, is the new point costing system. Cost three makes them too cheap, cost five makes them too expensive and cost four puts them in the middle of the road. truely their cost should probably be in the neighborhood of 3.7 but it is not possible with the new point system.

I don't mean to try to jerk this thread off to Cryx nodes specifically, as I'm sure everyone's heard plenty of that. But I will respond to this at least.

Speaking personally, I'd love a heavy node in Cryx. I can't speak for other players, but a jack that could smack someone in the face and arc both would be highly prized as long as it was cost competitively. Heck, that's one of the reasons people reach for the Deathjack as often as they do, particularly in MKII. It'd be nice to have that step up from the 4 and 5 point paper thin chickens without having to immediately look at the 12 point monster Deathjack himself, who isn't actually even an arc node proper.

I'm not sure where the whole "Cryx spell lists are power packed!" thing comes from, but it's a myth more than anything. Not that I'm saying our spells suck, just that they're not really any more inherently powerful than any other faction's. I mean, when you think of really notably powerful spells, surely you don't just think of Cryx. The difference is ours mess with you directly more often by nature of being offensive spells...but they can always fail with bad rolls, too.

Finally, I don't care about Cryx nodes costing what they do, but rather that they didn't get any more survivable in the transition to their higher cost. Its made Cryx players shy away from them whenever possible to what degree we can, and its made things like the Ripjaw seem decidedly underwhelming even though we don't know its specific rules at all. You know its bad when a new release for the faction has absolutely no one stoked about it whatsoever.

[knight_actual]

considering you can get multiple cryx node for a phoenix, i fail to see how the phoenix could possibly be more durable.

[Dealer]

Finally, I don't care about Cryx nodes costing what they do, but rather that they didn't get any more survivable in the transition to their higher cost. Its made Cryx players shy away from them whenever possible to what degree we can, and its made things like the Ripjaw seem decidedly underwhelming even though we don't know its specific rules at all. You know its bad when a new release for the faction has absolutely no one stoked about it whatsoever.

This. Exactly my feelings.

[Lanz]

I don't really see how the phoenix tops the list. It's a heavy close-combat 'jack, that's going to be tied up in combat(and unable to use it's arc-node) most of the time anyways. Why take an arc node you can't use? Sure it's survivable, but it's not exactly hard to deny the 'jack it's use.

I'd say the Revenger is the best. For a light 'jack it's incredibly tough, and it's repulsor shield can actually push things right out of combat range, and disengage them in the process. The chimera, I'd think would be neck-and-neck almost since it can basically teleport out of combat. The problem being that compared to a revenger, it's far less survivable, and it's teleport is very shortrange. If it were surrounded it would not be able to disengage.

But still, those two are top for sheer arc node functionality, in my oppinion. Lancer's are good 'jackbait, to bust up cortexes, but that still wont free up it's arc node for use if something runs up to it and ties it up.

I'm not sure how the Blessing of Vengeance scored so low. It's impossible to tie up. Something charges/engages it, and just gets shield-slammed back from the defensive strike. If it didn't have reach, it's disengaged and already can't attack. if it did have reach, then it makes one attack, and gets knocked back again. At this point it could only still be in range if it was flush base-to-base, if there was even the slightest gap, it's disengaged. What more could a warcaster ask for than an arc node that disengages itself when people try to attack it? How is that not outstanding for an arc node? Depending on the caster it's taken with (epic severius, for example) the thing can be vertually invincible, requiring enormous amounts of points to actually take it down.

Actually... I can't imagine how the phoenix got first place in a "based solely on the arcnodes ability to be just an arcnode without taking into account the offensive capability of the node." situation. The phoenix has nothing to back up it's arc-node with, and using it for it's arc-node is actually counter-intuitive to what the 'jack does. It's more just a rounded do-everything warjack than an 'arc node' warjack.

What is this based on anyways? It's claimed to not be based on the offensive capibilities of the 'jack, but from the list, there's no way it could possibly be based on how much use you'd get out of the arc node itself, and it can't be based on the toughness of the arc node(since the Guardian is at the bottom).

[The Happy Anarchist]

Actually, doesn't the Pheonix have the combustion special attack, which wrecks warrior models within 2" with autohitting pow 12s. Then it has a reach weapon with highish pow if it is locked in by a jack. It is certainly not bad at getting out of melee.

[WMPlayer]

I'm curious, what is the purpose of this analysis? I would argue that the data is completely inaccurate from the perspective of playing any particular faction. Take Cryx for example. There is no way a non-Cryx arc node can possibly rank higher than the current Cryxian arc nodes because non-Cryx arc nodes cannot be fielded in a Cryx army. The same applies for all other factions. To any non-Magnus Merc army, this data is entirely meaningless. What value is there to knowing that the arc node I can field isn't as good or is better than the arc nodes I can't field?

By the way, you are missing Khador's arc node in your analysis.

[Zugbart]

I applaud your effort in attempting to analyze a rather complex problem. Those are always the most fun!

However, these types of analysis are also inherently subjective because the weights assigned to various metrics (speed, special abilities, damage absorption potential, etc.) are all fairly subjective and open to debate. How much better really is spd 7 vs. 6? Or 6 vs. 5? And then how do these values relate to hit taking potential? Is moving 1" faster twice as good as a 1% improvement in taking a P+S 12 hit? A P+S 15 hit? And how do those weight in comparison to things like pathfinder?

These types of analysis should always be taken with a very large grain of salt. Now I'm assuming you're using a weighted score type of calculation as you didn't really describe your methodology in detail, nor post up your excel. If that's not the case, please do elaborate.

Something you should consider is running sensitivity analyses on your various weights and see how/if your rankings change. Without that, and without more methodology it's difficult to really glean much from your results.

A better way to do this is to run a monte carlo simulation for each jack and see how many hits it will take to destroy an arc node at various P+S and various MAT/RAT scores. You run 1000s of simulations to get a good distribution of results for each jack this way, and it would be much more informative and accurate than using just the average chance of destroying it in one hit. You can build in all the probabilities at each point in the process and model these as probability distributions as well.

Of course this requires a lot more work to set up, and while it might be a fun mathematical exercise, you would still be subject to some of the subjectiveness of how much to weight speed vs. hit-taking-potential. But if you pull out all the other factors, you can get a better idea of hit-taking-potential vs. the current method.

[theummhmmguy]

I applaud your effort in attempting to analyze a rather complex problem. Those are always the most fun!

However, these types of analysis are also inherently subjective because the weights assigned to various metrics (speed, special abilities, damage absorption potential, etc.) are all fairly subjective and open to debate. How much better really is spd 7 vs. 6? Or 6 vs. 5? And then how do these values relate to hit taking potential? Is moving 1" faster twice as good as a 1% improvement in taking a P+S 12 hit? A P+S 15 hit? And how do those weight in comparison to things like pathfinder?

These types of analysis should always be taken with a very large grain of salt. Now I'm assuming you're using a weighted score type of calculation as you didn't really describe your methodology in detail, nor post up your excel. If that's not the case, please do elaborate.

Something you should consider is running sensitivity analyses on your various weights and see how/if your rankings change. Without that, and without more methodology it's difficult to really glean much from your results.

A better way to do this is to run a monte carlo simulation for each jack and see how many hits it will take to destroy an arc node at various P+S and various MAT/RAT scores. You run 1000s of simulations to get a good distribution of results for each jack this way, and it would be much more informative and accurate than using just the average chance of destroying it in one hit. You can build in all the probabilities at each point in the process and model these as probability distributions as well.

Of course this requires a lot more work to set up, and while it might be a fun mathematical exercise, you would still be subject to some of the subjectiveness of how much to weight speed vs. hit-taking-potential. But if you pull out all the other factors, you can get a better idea of hit-taking-potential vs. the current method.

I am doing just that in relation to the speed statistic as well as inherent abilities of the jack to gain extra movement on its own.

I do like the math afterall.

My purpose in doing this stemmed from the long and rather heated discussion in the Cryx forums on how thier nodes were overcosted. Using a very simple model and two much more complex ones the Cryx nodes actually presented the biggest fluctuation in all three comparisons when their costs were adusted from 3 to 4 to 5.

When comparing solely for the purpose of how good it is an arcnode. Cost becomes a huge factor as you can see from the fact that all but one heavy is near the bottom of the list. My second set of more complex evalutions was done to see if the Pheonix was an outlier in my first two sets. If it is then I am giving too much value to the number of hitboxes in relation to armor the model has before the arcnode can be put out of commission.