Retribution Light Jacks: Why Ever Use them?

[RetributionBomb]

Our light jacks really are bad. At Defense 12 and Armor 16 they are each very easy to kill. The Gorgon is pretty much worthless with its lack luster ability. The Griffon and Chimera are ok because of their respective abilities, but are overshadowed by our amazing heavies. Can anyone give a good reason to ever take them over our heavies?

[werecat]

Seriously? The Chimera is probably the best light arc node in the game. That two inches of movement is MASSIVE. The Griffon is just rad, in it's oh so affordable little package. You can't go wrong with a 4 point jack that does what it does.

Though you have a point on the gorgon....

[Jice_]

I wish I could point you to all the old threads that adressed these issues but alas...

So in point form.

Griffon
- Reach
- Cheap
- Fast
* A cheap jack with reach and a shield is the best jack to have with anything that has flank, Invictors, Vyros, Scyir etc. It's speed is unmatched, it can charge 13" with Vyros and that's not including Reach.

Chimera
- Arc node
- Combostrike
- A movement that is Immune to free strikes.
* This is the perfect example of an Arcnode, it's defence is that you can't stop it from arcing unless you were B2B and had reach (or took out the Arcnode).

Gorgon
- Requires no focus to operate reliably.
- Combostrike
- Board control
* The Gorgon is a Marshaling Jack, It's combo strike only needs one sudo focus to make work effectively, even better with Scyir's Drive. It's ability holds models in place to they don't go after more vulnrable targets, also stops charge lanes towards important units and targets.

Def 12/Arm 16 would suck if they were Defence Jacks. But they aren't. The jacks are meant to strike first and strike hard not play pansy and take hits. Even the Griffon, with a shield, isn't meant for defence.

Hide a Gorgon with a Scyir behind a unit of Sentinels/Invictors and you'll understand what makes them good.

( I'll give you a hint, they can charge through the unit, the gorgon can reroll missed hits, and unless the target has reach it won't be able to attack the Scyir until the Gorgon's field is disabled.)

[xarrul]

It really comes down to how many points you are playing. How do you plan to balance out your solos, troops, and jacks?

Are you looking for a cheaper quick way to use your "Flank" ability?

If you are planning a large number of troops, are you worried about trample? (Gorgon will help against that)

There are many different ways that I can think of using Light jacks effectively but they are really based around my style of play. Most of this is as a result of the tricks of MKI. I have been using Scyir with jack friends to move through dawnguard, or to hunt down arc nodes that are trying to outflank me.

In the MKII games I have played I have also been really successful with them. The key personally for me is to use them like a very dangerous attachment to our Jack marshal units. However, without understanding who you are playing against, I can not really offer advice into how they may fit into your army.

I hope this helps. I am really curious what others are doing with the lights as I am terrified about getting into a rut of using them the say predictable way.

[greenlock]

For me the best use of the Griffon seems to be as a sacrificial jack to just throw into the middle of the opponents army to kill a solo and disrupt their movement, buying a turn to set up assassination or another round of shooting. Best use other than flank that is.

The chimaera is as has been mentioned an excellent node. The ability to move 14" in round is equal to a bonechicken which gives you great flexibility about where to get your spells in. Plus only reach models can tie it down.

The Gorgon I'm a bit iffy on. It seems like a denial piece but I can't see how it will stay alive or be worth 5p of denial.

[xarrul]

Hide a Gorgon with a Scyir behind a unit of Sentinels/Invictors and you'll understand what makes them good.


I have used this tatic myself to great effect. I need to get more games in with the Gorgon. Thus far I have used it to intercept or block. If I need to get my MHA past a flank I can screen with the Gorgon, use kinetic grip to stop them from chargeing the Gorgon. This cuts down on them getting past to the MHA. (hopefully)

Lord Xalys had a wonderful post about the Gorgon. I suspect that it will be transfered over to this forum soon. It should add a lot of insight into at least that one.

[Pinegulf]

I'd like to point out that griffon is scary fast. 1st round: allocate 2 focus on it. Spd 6 on base. +2 movement with Vyros (assumin you field him) and another +2 movement by using 1 focus makes runmove of 20" with pathfinder. Now this makes him "#¤"#¤ of a threat to flank. Sure you can't allocate any focus to him from there on, but the model will cause some royal pain to the enemy plans.

[CaptBooyah]

I'd like to point out that griffon is scary fast. 1st round: allocate 2 focus on it. Spd 6 on base. +2 movement with Vyros (assumin you field him) and another +2 movement by using 1 focus makes runmove of 20" with pathfinder. Now this makes him "#¤"#¤ of a threat to flank. Sure you can't allocate any focus to him from there on, but the model will cause some royal pain to the enemy plans.

Vyros provides +2 speed and his focus provies +2 movement... so the total amount you can run is in fact 18" (speed+2 x 2 + 2 extra movement). Altho it is a 20" threat range which is just as good.

Almost as good as a hunter jack with Kraye's double speed spell + light jack rules + emergency steam tank for 22" of movement.

My favourite is Thorn bonded to eHaley

Before activation
- +2 place from telekinesis
- +3 advance from a spell cast through its arcnode

During activation
- Normal movement 6"
- + 3" charge/ 6" movement from running
- +2 movement inside Haley's control (18" thanks to squire)
- +2 movement from temporal acceleration

Initially your Thorn moved 5" and then he got the choice of charging 13" or running 16", not to mention have reach. Nothing like a 20" threat range on a charge or 23" movement to pester and flank with an arcnode.

And then you really **** off your opponent with disengage + set defense for another 2" movement should they miss their melee attacks on him. Not to mention that you probably feated that turn and therefore you opponent has limited choices on how do deal with a arcnode in an awkward spot.

[Bearded Dragon]

The only one I own is a Griffon, but I have found it a good thing for the Invictors to marshal. It provides flank and is decently sturdy (for 4 points). The Pathfinder lets it go after some pesky solos that are annoying your Invictors (like Kell) . With powerful charge, you can marshal it to charge and it has a good chance of connecting.

[TotalGee]

The gorgon is the only one I have no place for. I will try it out, but I dont see how it can compete with the others.

[NeverNoBest]

I just had my first game playing retribution after years of playing Khador, and I'm still getting used to this whole "light jack" concept. The idea that there are 'jacks that can get by just fine with only one focus is kind of a trip. The Chimera, I think, is an excellent investment with Rahn - its ability to navigate out of melee range and run across the board makes it a great vessel for focus hammer to line up some collateral damage.

[isawatsuke]

chimera- when you need a cheap arc node. I personally dont find pheonixes worth it. Any other faction it would be but manticores and hydras are so much better

griffon- we have a warcaster with flank -.- that alone should give you a list to field him in. We also have invictors with flank which is a great unit in itself. And its only 4 pts.

gorgon- yer dun use this.

[DarkLegacy]

The Gorgon has a purpose. It is our only light with a ranged attack and a decent melee attack. I love this fact about it. I always start missing a ranged attack when the rest of the army has one if I field a Chimera or Griffon.

[CyberKnight]

I personally dont find pheonixes worth it. Any other faction it would be but manticores and hydras are so much better


I agree with the rest, but this just depends on what kind of list you're building. If I'm bringing 2 heavies, it's likely to be a Hydra and a Manticore. If I only bring one, it will most likely be a Pheonix. It can absorb so much abuse and still be effective that it's hard for me to pass up.

Edit: On topic, I've only used the Griffon in the Light category, as I like to have one near my Invictors as a distraction/ Flank buddy.

[isawatsuke]

The Gorgon has a purpose. It is our only light with a ranged attack and a decent melee attack. I love this fact about it. I always start missing a ranged attack when the rest of the army has one if I field a Chimera or Griffon.

I find that i can replicate the ranged attack of the gorgon with most of our infantry units and the "unique" thing it brings in the form of movement lock is often not worth it enough for its points. While the griffon and the chimera fit thier roles better and have competing figs that are in a totally different price class.

On the pheonix the 2 boxes it has over the other 2 hasnt really made that much of a difference for me and the access to a pow 25 attack in the manticore really makes me take it over the pheonix if im only taking one jack especially in a faction where most of our other options have lowish base pow. The generator hasnt been helping as well as my opponents know enough not to try and nickel and dime ret jacks to death.

[PMAvers]

I dunno, i actually like the Gorgon's force lock. Saved my butt a few games against Everblight by being able to block flight lanes.

And annoying Everblight is worthwhile by itself. :D

[Killionaire]

Seriously? The Chimera is probably the best light arc node in the game. That two inches of movement is MASSIVE. The Griffon is just rad, in it's oh so affordable little package. You can't go wrong with a 4 point jack that does what it does.

Though you have a point on the gorgon....

Not really. Because it's the squishiest 6 point Light, at being merely 12/16, while the exemplary Lancer and Revenger are 13/18 and 12/19 respectively, with a different defensive mechanism. Not to mention more spells worth arc-noding within those factions.

Honestly, I'd much, much rather just spend an extra 4 points and upgrade the Arc Node that I want to bring (If I even want one) into a Phoenix, so it also fills the 'long threat beatstick' slot too. Not to mention the Phoenix's sheer durability with it's auto-regen and heavy jack stats.

[BIG RICH]

Personally, I have enjoyed playing a battlegroup made entirely of light 'jacks during demos.

[CeltKhan]

Honestly, I'd much, much rather just spend an extra 4 points and upgrade the Arc Node that I want to bring (If I even want one) into a Phoenix, so it also fills the 'long threat beatstick' slot too. Not to mention the Phoenix's sheer durability with it's auto-regen and heavy jack stats.

The problem with that is your Phoenix can either arc or beat face, not both. If your Phoenix is in position to do both (ie: it was within arcing range but unengaged before activating), your opponent did something wrong. I'd rather not rely on that.

If I need a face-beater and an arcnode, I'll spend an extra two points and "upgrade" the Chimera by adding a Manti. :p

[Killionaire]

The problem with that is your Phoenix can either arc or beat face, not both. If your Phoenix is in position to do both (ie: it was within arcing range but unengaged before activating), your opponent did something wrong. I'd rather not rely on that.

If I need a face-beater and an arcnode, I'll spend an extra two points and "upgrade" the Chimera by adding a Manti. :p

To be honest, you don't need to be arcing that often with most Casters. The Phoenix also has reach, and can attack non-reach models with impunity while arcing. Phoenix is a good jack even without the Node thrown on, so consider it a bonus.

Most of the Arcing you'll need is what? Stuff like Backlash, which you only need to do once before combat. Only Rahn has any good spells worth arcing otherwise, and he probably can't spare 6 points for a Jack that doesn't DO anything besides arc.

[Abyss]

I am gonna add in my 2 cents here for what it is worth. I have found that 2 Chimeras are actually very good at assasinationm, as you can run them right past your enemy lines and combo stike the opposing caster. Also arc spells threw them that make them re role misses on said target or a force hammer or how about a back strike from a chain blast. I am still learning very much, but I think the lights are ment to go go go. Much like the light mechs in battletech if you stand still with em and go toe to toe with a bigger opponet then yes they are gonna loose (shocker). So to compair them to other lights in the game is not a fair evaluation. Everything has its place in our list and I doubt any of us can call ourselfs masters in tactics for this faction yet as we are just getting started. So lets share what we all know so that we all can get better !

[gdaybloke]

The Phoenix also has reach, and can attack non-reach models with impunity while arcing.
I thought you couldn't arc while engaged, including while you're engaging an enemy?

[FranzGrenstein]

I thought you couldn't arc while engaged, including while you're engaging an enemy?

Ditto that.

[karn987]

The problem with out lights is that they are Menoth Lights without the back up unites like the Choir and the Vassel. They are all ok and do function decently well for their intended uses but all but the Chimera is a bit gimmicky.

When it comes to arc nodes, NOTHING will ever top the Cryx bone chicken. I know this after years of using the little suckers, no other arc node in the game is as good as them, so don't bothering comparing the Chimera to them, you wont get any where. For the faction, the Chimera is rather useful because it's not horribly expensive (maybe a bit to expensive for what it can do, but Im used to cheap arcnodes), it's quick, and that 2" place assures it will always be able to get into position to arc.

The Griffon is sorta meh in my mind, without good battle group jack buffing spells I don't expect to take it often. We have no Choir, no Vassel, no Darius or Mortenebra type casters. In short, we have very little that benifits a battle group of jacks and that is kinda side, but we are still a new faction. I'm hoping PP will listen and give us the jack caster and support units everyone keeps lamenting about.

But even still, for their points, they aren't horrible. They have their uses, the Griffon is a flank machine, just stick it to the Invictors and be happy ;D. The Chimera is a fast, hard to pin down arcnode so Rahn and Mr. Pistol Daggers (his name escapes me at the moment >.>) love the thing. Heck all the casters love having 1 in the army just to get those nice spells off quickly and when you need them. Each caster has atleast 1 spell more then worth Arcing. The gorgon is the most situational of the lights but even then there are a lot of uses for it. When that tactic post comes back on the Gorgon, read it, with the Scyir it's a good jack and a nasty duo.

I guess my sum point is, they are all useful but none of them stand out truely yet. I think the reason for this is the lack of the jack support units outside of the arcanist who is ok, but not amazing. If we had a unit like the choir, or a caster like Mortenebra or Darius, they would shine bright. But untill then, think of them as support jacks rather then main stays of your army.


*edit* Gorgon post is here: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=293

[Der Dexter]

as a matter of fact, Phoenix can channel when ENGAGING models, ie someone without reach, but you can't channel while engaged. P. 77 in Mk ll pdf.

won me a very tight game few weeks ago, while being surrounded by macthralls, but none within 0.5, and went on blasting terminus to death.

[FranzGrenstein]

Engaged is engaged. If you are engaged w/ them and they are not engaged w/ you i.e. reach.

You are ENGAGED.

[DarkLegacy]

Engaged is engaged. If you are engaged w/ them and they are not engaged w/ you i.e. reach.

You are ENGAGED.

In melee has two different things.

1. You are engaged by an enemy model. You are in that model's melee range. You cannot arc a spell.
2. You are engaging another model. That model is in your melee range. You can arc a spell.

1 and 2 can be exclusive. I can engage you, so I am engaging, while you don't engage me, making you engaged. In this example, the model can arc spells.

[Magnus' Right Hand Man]

I suppose I'll give my two focus on this one. Retribution light Myrmidons, in my opinion, fill a slightly different role than that of comparable light jacks of other factions. They are support jacks, they allow your army to operate better by putting you at an advantage of some sorts. Any advantage is better than no advantage, although they don't hit as hard or survive as long, they do enough and should survive long enough so you can get the job done, the job being bringing a few units or solos into better positions without threat of too much repercussion, killing a solo that is now causing problems or will be shortly, or the ultimate goal of killing the enemy caster. Light Myrmidons help put the game in your hands.

The Chimera is a great arc node, although it doesn't quite compare to bonejacks (to be honest very few things do) it still gets the job done very well and since we do not really on spells as much as Cryx we do not absolutely need something on the level of Deathripper, etc. What most Retribution casters need in an arc node is something that is mobile enough to get in the right position when the time comes and nothing beats apparition for that task. The Chimera can be called a "Right Place, Right Time" arc node. If you think about possible game winning spells within the Retribution such as Gallows, Force Blast, Death Sentence, an early applied Backlash, even Vyros' Eliminator all benefit from having a Chimera around and in the right place. Now many argue that the Phoenix is far and away better than Chimera and everyone should just spend the points to upgrade it, I disagree the 4 point difference can easily be funneled into a few MHAs, Ghost Snipers, any number of our powerful 2 point solos. To me our strength is in our solos and having more of them is always a good thing. The other issue is that a Phoenix can be bogged down in melee eliminating its arc node, now with combustion, a reach weapon along with a number of other spells or feats that can help it out of melee it will still get stuck eventually. Also, in my opinion, the primary duty of the Phoenix is to get into melee and the arc node on it is just icing on the cake. So, in conclusion, the Chimera's unpredictable movement and difficulty being pinned down is what makes it a great choice as a Myrmidon.

The Gorgon is a master at field control, I don't know how I could elaborate much more but this jack is great if you want to control a few enemy pieces. Although it wont last long the turn or so control is all that should be needed to set yourself up into extremely advantageous positions. First the Polarity Cannon is great it really allows you to throw the Gorgon out there for a turn in front of a big melee heavies and feel safe, just know your opponent and make sure you are out of his range to walk up to you. Also the Cannon helps deal with pesky models such as Vilmon, Pistol Wraith and the like with its beautiful magic weapon. Now the best part of this model is the Force Lock, say your opponent planted DJ in the middle of the field run a Gorgon up into his face then advance your army up to annihilate the Cryxian monstrosity next turn, yes you will be sacrificing a 5 point model but think about the return you are getting on the sacrifice. For another example, you have the enemy warcaster on the run, run a Gorgon up into melee now you can catch him. It is a great sacrificial move that allows your army to really be in a good position on future turns. The other thing about both the Gorgon and Chimera is a PS 16 hit from a light jack which is better than almost any other light jack in the game along TWO OPEN FISTS, c'mon a light jack that can two-handed throw or arm lock what is not to like.

The Griffon is a great cheap light Myrmidon, that will throw a little wrench in your opponent's plans and that is really what he does. Again it is a bit of a distraction light jack, really trying to put your opponent on the defensive by making bold and aggressive maneuvers. His other strength is providing a cheap Flank for Invictors, Scyirs, and Vyros thereby greatly increasing these models melee abilities. Have one with a Scyir or just sitting by a unit of Invictors it really makes these models monsters in melee. The flanking with the Griffon is simple and makes it an exceleent support jack for select models, this use is kinda of an inverse of the typical units supporting jacks. Now back to using it in a bold maneuver, against ranged units with little or no melee strength, especially those sitting in a forest, this jack is a nightmare. If you use it to run it can engage a model 16" away, even through a forest, that is quite impressive. The other option is to charge a model up to 13" away giving it a great strike range, not including things such as Mobility or Locomotion.

I know this isn't the most thorough of a look at our Light Myrmidons but I hope it helps.

-MRHM

[Haight]

Seriously? The Chimera is probably the best light arc node in the game. That two inches of movement is MASSIVE. The Griffon is just rad, in it's oh so affordable little package. You can't go wrong with a 4 point jack that does what it does.

Though you have a point on the gorgon....


I agree with these, and will add that as a control /denial piece, a gorgon marshalled to a sentinel UA is beyond ridiculous. You're talking about 18.5" of possible lock down threat range.

Remember, too, that 66% of the current lights can muster a PS 16 attack, which is more than most lights can say, and they can do this 100% unassisted. If you have a spare arcanist, you can choose to do either PS 14's, or a single PS 18. Some heavies don't hit that hard. :)

I realize that pound for pound using that arcanist on a manticore or phoenix is better, but don't be too quick to underestimate the lights. They can put a massive hurt on things and help you control the flow of the game.


-- haight

[CeltKhan]

Engaged is engaged. If you are engaged w/ them and they are not engaged w/ you i.e. reach.

You are ENGAGED.

As Dark Legacy said, this is wrong. Yo uare confusing Engaging, Engaged, and In Melee.

If you have an enemy model within your melee range, you are Engaging that model.

If you are within the melee range of an enemy model, you are Engaged by that model.

If either of the above conditions are true, you are In Melee. In Melee by itself has no effect on whether or not you can Channel; you are prevented from Channeling by being Engaged. You can, however, Channel while Engaging an enemy model. This can be achieved by having Reach when they do not or being in their rear arc.

[DevonV]

Chimera
* This is the perfect example of an Arcnode, it's defence is that you can't stop it from arcing unless you were B2B and had reach (or took out the Arcnode).

Wasn't it ruled that if you were B2B and moved 2", you were no longer in melee? Or was that only MK I?



...sudo...

Phonetics shall avail thee not against a word as weird as pseudo.

[Jice_]

Phonetics shall avail thee not against a word as weird as pseudo.

I don't see how this adds to the converstaion about Retribution light Jacks in any way. We could spend all day talking about contractions, spelling errors, and slang but it doesn't help solve anyone problems about how to make the light jacks work. I'm not an english professor and I don't play one on the internet. 'sudo' works just fine to get my point across so I will use it as such.

[CeltKhan]

I don't see how this adds to the converstaion about Retribution light Jacks in any way. We could spend all day talking about contractions, spelling errors, and slang but it doesn't help solve anyone problems about how to make the light jacks work. I'm not an english professor and I don't play one on the internet. 'sudo' works just fine to get my point across so I will use it as such.

Actually, it doesn't. I had no idea what that "sudo" was supposed to mean. I figured it was a weird amalgam of Judo and Sumo, which is a really weird image...

[KaalTheWanderer]

Don't forget that a Gorgon can lockdown Menoth 'jacks. Decent way to get around Enliven.

[vanPart]

As Dark Legacy said, this is wrong. Yo uare confusing Engaging, Engaged, and In Melee.

If you have an enemy model within your melee range, you are Engaging that model.

If you are within the melee range of an enemy model, you are Engaged by that model.

If either of the above conditions are true, you are In Melee. In Melee by itself has no effect on whether or not you can Channel; you are prevented from Channeling by being Engaged. You can, however, Channel while Engaging an enemy model. This can be achieved by having Reach when they do not or being in their rear arc.

Here's the appropriate quote from the PDF (emphasis mine, the rest of the paragraph is included for any related rules):

A channeler engaged by an enemy model cannot channel
spells. A stationary channeler can channel spells, but one
that is knocked down cannot. A channeler can be the target
of a non-offensive spell it channels, but a spell with a RNG
of ?SELF? cannot be channeled. A channeler cannot be the
target of an offensive spell channeled through it.

[I Has Bones]

Unless I am wrong, even being in B2B with a reach model will not lock down the Chimera. He can simple Apparate behind the model (as the rule is a "placement" and not "movement"). The only thing at this point that could lock it down would be a reach model with a 360 front arc.

[FearLord]

Unless I am wrong, even being in B2B with a reach model will not lock down the Chimera. He can simple Apparate behind the model (as the rule is a "placement" and not "movement"). The only thing at this point that could lock it down would be a reach model with a 360 front arc.

The placement has to be completely within, so you'll find it impossible to place the base behind a model...

[moz]

To answer the op, cheap open fists - that's reason enough to field them. A lot of versatility in these, but as an example: Get behind a heavy and arm/headlock it. The poor heavy can't even turn around to face you (can't advance at all and lock breaking takes place after movement) - repeat until you opponent is forced to bring something else to bear to help the heavy against a 5/6pt light warjack.

[69Lazarus]

I always take a Phoenix over a Chimera. I just added a second Phoenix to my 50 point rhan list and it has done very well overall.

Not a big fan of the lights in general but I do see how they could have their uses.

[thecsharian]

You need light jacks for Garryths tier army

[Oniwasabi]

Don't forget that a Gorgon can lockdown Menoth 'jacks. Decent way to get around Enliven.

I hadn't even thought of that one. That's a great way to break Enliven down a bit.

Of course since all the Retribution Heavies can just shoot the Enliven'd jack and trigger the effect early I'm not sure if it'll be amazingly useful, but good to have another option floating around (Garryth's tier list might like the option at least)

[KaalTheWanderer]

Of course since all the Retribution Heavies can just shoot the Enliven'd jack and trigger the effect early
Shooting works sometimes, but I often find that the choir has nullified the shooting option. Magic will do the trick in a pinch , but often requires an inordinate amount of focus investment.

Whats been happening around here is that the local Menites use enliven to bait their fishing lines. You see the heavy standing around and send something big after it. It takes one hit, then hop scotches out of reach.

I prefer to keep the ball in my court, an enlivened 'jack can end up many places you don't want it to go.

Gorgons can be amazingly speedy little critters...a Sentinel officer can drive it to run a ridiculous 18in!! :)


*edit*


The poor heavy can't even turn around to face you

Doesn't the gorgons ability expressly allow your opponent to change facing?

[Jice_]

Shooting works sometimes, but I often find that the choir has nullified the shooting option.

How so? All our heavy jacks have Magical ranged attacks in which the Chior can't prevent, and any unit you have shooting at a jack can be accompanied by A&H to be given magical Attacks.

I mean a gorgon is still a better option with it's ability to hit hard and lock them in place (Pro tip: Bring eEryss within 5" so they can't get focus either to hit the Gorgon back efficiently) but there shouldn't really be too much trouble in letting the Pheonix's halo cannon get a shot in first if it's only being used to channel in a given turn, which is likely if the Chior prevent's normal shooting.

[Lord Xalys]

To answer the op, cheap open fists - that's reason enough to field them. A lot of versatility in these, but as an example: Get behind a heavy and arm/headlock it. The poor heavy can't even turn around to face you (can't advance at all and lock breaking takes place after movement) - repeat until you opponent is forced to bring something else to bear to help the heavy against a 5/6pt light warjack.

As KaalTheWanderer already stated, Force Lock does allow changing facing. So a 'jack could turn around and break the lock afterwards. Still, it does force your opponent to turn his 'jack around, which can take its attention away from another model.

LX

[Redphantasm]

As KaalTheWanderer already stated, Force Lock does allow changing facing. So a 'jack could turn around and break the lock afterwards. Still, it does force your opponent to turn his 'jack around, which can take its attention away from another model.

LX

I'm not really sure what you mean by "turn around and break the lock after. Could you expound?

[Redphantasm]

How so? All our heavy jacks have Magical ranged attacks in which the Chior can't prevent, and any unit you have shooting at a jack can be accompanied by A&H to be given magical Attacks.

I mean a gorgon is still a better option with it's ability to hit hard and lock them in place (Pro tip: Bring eEryss within 5" so they can't get focus either to hit the Gorgon back efficiently) but there shouldn't really be too much trouble in letting the Pheonix's halo cannon get a shot in first if it's only being used to channel in a given turn, which is likely if the Chior prevent's normal shooting.

Actually our Jacks cannot shoot at choired Jacks.

The choir passage states:


Passage (􀋒Action) - The warjack cannot be targeted by non-magical ranged attacks. Passage lasts for one round

Our jacks have the Magical Weapons rule on their guns. But this attacks are not magical attacks:


Magical Weapons
A magical weapon can damage and affect models with
the Incorporeal ability. Attacks made with magical
weapons are not magic attacks. Magical ranged weapons
make ranged attacks. Magical melee weapons make
melee attacks.

You would need a ranged magic attack to target a jack under passage. Something like the Battle Mage's force bolt.

[Lazlo]

Actually our Jacks cannot shoot at choired Jacks.

The choir passage states:



Our jacks have the Magical Weapons rule on their guns. But this attacks are not magical attacks:



You would need a ranged magic attack to target a jack under passage. Something like the Battle Mage's force bolt.

There's a significant difference between a Magic attack and a Magical attack.

There is one type of Magic attack, those caused by spells or other special abilities, and they are all ranged.

There are two types of Magical attacks: ranged and melee. These are those caused by Magical weapons.

Magical weapons bypass choir's passage.

[FearLord]

As KaalTheWanderer already stated, Force Lock does allow changing facing. So a 'jack could turn around and break the lock afterwards. Still, it does force your opponent to turn his 'jack around, which can take its attention away from another model.

LX

Force lock does not prevent models from changing facing. However, a model that is held in a lock (and the model locking it) are unable to advance for any reason.

Changing facing is something that models can do during their advance that costs no movement.

Therefore: A model held in a lock is unable to change its facing and can't break the lock until the start of its combat action (i.e after its movement)...

It could be argued however that the Gorgan doesn't gain massively from this, since any jack performing a lock would still prevent the target from moving away / changing its facing... I guess it gives a buffer zone though - i.e a Gorgon in the back arc of a jack / beast without 360 line of sight and performing a lock will be garranteed holding the target in place for at least 2 turns without assistance (more if you can continue to perform locks - once the target breaks the lock, it won't be able to attack the Gorgan, leaving it free to try again next turn)...

[Bonehead]

There's a significant difference between a Magic attack and a Magical attack.

There is one type of Magic attack, those caused by spells or other special abilities, and they are all ranged.

There are two types of Magical attacks: ranged and melee. These are those caused by Magical weapons.

Magical weapons bypass choir's passage.

Here (http://old.privateerpressforums.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=191511&view=findpost&p=2858096) is the post from the old boards that backs that up.

[Redphantasm]

There's a significant difference between a Magic attack and a Magical attack.

There is one type of Magic attack, those caused by spells or other special abilities, and they are all ranged.

There are two types of Magical attacks: ranged and melee. These are those caused by Magical weapons.

Magical weapons bypass choir's passage.

Are we sure about this? I'd love it if it was accurate, just want to be sure.

*EDIT* NM, saw Boneheads post. My mistake but good news for the angry elves.

[FearLord]

There's a significant difference between a Magic attack and a Magical attack.

There is one type of Magic attack, those caused by spells or other special abilities, and they are all ranged.

There are two types of Magical attacks: ranged and melee. These are those caused by Magical weapons.

Magical weapons bypass choir's passage.

I agree, but don't confuse the issue by stating that Magic attacks are all ranged attacks...

There are 3 types of attacks: Melee (resolved with MAT), Ranged (resolved with RAT), and Magic (resolved with FOC, FUR or Magic ability).

Melee or Ranged attacks can have the 'Magical Weapon' ability which means they can be described as a "magical melee attack" or a "magical ranged attack" in the same way that a ranged attack with the damage type of fire can be described as a "flaming ranged attack".

A magic attack is magical (in that it can affect things like incorporal models), but this isn't needed vs Safe passage because this specifically protects the models from "Non-magical ranged attacks". Therefore only ranged attacks without the magical weapon ability are stopped by the ability. Melee attacks and Magic attacks affect them not because of any "magical" quality, but because they are not ranged attacks.

There is a very specific type of attack that safe passage stops - "non-magical ranged attacks". Therefore, Retribution Jacks CAN shoot safe passaged jacks (and this is why Cygnar/Siege don't worry too much about Menoth in my experience).

[Lazlo]

I should clarify, when I say that all Magic attacks are ranged, I meant that they take effect over a distance and not that they are considered "Ranged Attacks". Bad wording on my part, and shows how confusing this magic vs. magical vs. ranged vs. melee issue is, and that PP definately could have made the issue clearer (not overloading "magic-" would have been a good start).

[Lazlo]

I agree, but don't confuse the issue by stating that Magic attacks are all ranged attacks...

...

There is a very specific type of attack that safe passage stops - "non-magical ranged attacks". Therefore, Retribution Jacks CAN shoot safe passaged jacks (and this is why Cygnar/Siege don't worry too much about Menoth in my experience).

Yes, thank you for pointing that out. It was bad wording on my part.

Cygnar in general has a plethora of magical ranged attacks, so even without Siege it's not a big deal. Siege and A&H just add to the magical ranged goodness.

[Dizzy]

Bad wording on my part, and shows how confusing this magic vs. magical vs. ranged vs. melee issue is, and that PP definately could have made the issue clearer (not overloading "magic-" would have been a good start).

I don't know, it seems pretty cut and dry to me. I do understand that a lot of americans have trouble with the english language though ;)

[Redphantasm]

I don't know, it seems pretty cut and dry to me. I do understand that a lot of americans have trouble with the english language though ;)

Sorry what was that? Try speaking american, it's the only language I understand. :P

[Lazlo]

I don't know, it seems pretty cut and dry to me. I do understand that a lot of americans have trouble with the english language though ;)

It seems pretty cut and dry to me as well, and always has, but it seems every week I see someone making the mistake of confusing magic with magical. And I've had to argue with people at the table about the differences between a magic attack and a ranged attack. Honestly, some guy said I couldn't hit his wrack with an Arcane Bolt because it was ranged. "It has a RNG so it's ranged!"

[Redphantasm]

It seems pretty cut and dry to me as well, and always has, but it seems every week I see someone making the mistake of confusing magic with magical. And I've had to argue with people at the table about the differences between a magic attack and a ranged attack. Honestly, some guy said I couldn't hit his wrack with an Arcane Bolt because it was ranged. "It has a RNG so it's ranged!"

I like the infernal ruling. Ranged Magic attacks are spells first. Therefore, if it does not specify immunity to spells, you aren't immune to spells.

[KaalTheWanderer]

How so?


All our heavy jacks have Magical ranged attacks in which the Chior can't prevent,

The situation for which I would prescribe a Gorgon, is one in which a Menite Heavy is taunting the RoS by standing in its threat range and hopscotching away before its taken any serious damage.

If you use a Heavy Myrmidon to shoot and trigger enliven, you've used a 8-10 pt 'jack and at least 1-2 focus to trigger an ability that is controlled by your opponent. In many cases he's simply stepped out of your threat range (or even worse, can block an important charge lane, engage a solo etc.)

I would rather use that same Heavy Myrmidon and apply its investment towards straight up scrapping the Menite 'jack. A scrapped Avatar should be preferable to an Avatar getting ready to countercharge you. At the very least its the healthier option :)


However, a model that is held in a lock (and the model locking it) are unable to advance for any reason.



OOoh, nice. I'm gonna have to go verify this meself. Hope its true!

[Killionare]

My question is if you could ever justify a griffon over 2 MHA? Maybe the griffon has some uses I haven't seen yet bet both seem to be fast moving Melee fighters, the griffon may have a lot more health but doesn't have stealth, I've got 4 points left in a list that doesn't have invictors in it, do I take a griffon or 2 MHA?

[KaalTheWanderer]

My question is if you could ever justify a griffon over 2 MHA?

Could you ever justify a griffon over 2 assassins?

Sure.

A griffon can be much faster, with a better threat range. (drive:pronto)A griffon also won't die to an errant AoE.

Apples & Oranges.

[Lazlo]

Could you ever justify a griffon over 2 assassins?

Sure.

A griffon can be much faster, with a better threat range. (drive:pronto)A griffon also won't die to an errant AoE.

Apples & Oranges.

Also, a Griffon is a great source for Flanks.

[Lanz]

I'm not a big fan of the lights either. I proxied them all to test them, and have not been nearly satisified enough with any of them to justify actually buying one. I'll stick to the heavies. The only one I might make use of is the Griffon, as a flank/support jack being marshalled, and tossed focus by arcanists when it needs to use it's speed boost, but even that I haven't tested with enough positive results to justify. The jacks just die way too easily. They should have been given better ranged utility, like a Charger or a Redeemer. I'd pay the extra points and focus to have a reliable, dedicated ranged light 'jack. The heavies are just too expensive to commit to a ranged-only role.

The Griffon is alright for what it does, I might buy one with a Scyir and Invictors. Having reach and such high speed makes it a pretty cheap source of decent flanks.

The Gorgon is hit and miss, and generally not worth what it costs. A hordes army will have enough beasts to just tear it apart with a beast uneffected by the Grip, and against a warmachine army, I'd rather just be using Eiryss to shut down 'jacks.

The Chimera is garbage. Apparition is useless because a gust of wind will blow it over, so it never gets into combat and actually survives long enough to even put the rule to use. It has no way to prevent damage, just move away in the rare event that it survives the damage. Almost any heavy that gets into combat with it will completely scrap it in one turn, and since it's an Arc node, it's a priority kill(or a waste of points).

[Redphantasm]

The Chimera is garbage. Apparition is useless because a gust of wind will blow it over, so it never gets into combat and actually survives long enough to even put the rule to use. It has no way to prevent damage, just move away in the rare event that it survives the damage. Almost any heavy that gets into combat with it will completely scrap it in one turn, and since it's an Arc node, it's a priority kill(or a waste of points).

Most arc nodes wont survive things like that. Apparition is one of the great things about the Chimera because it prevents the classic arc-node neutralizer, engaging.

Most people won't waste a heavie's activation charging an arc node, even if you do put it in a possition to be reached. What they will do is run something cheap to engage it. Even something as simple as one trooper can lock down an arc node for a turn, depriving you of putting it where you need it.

Apparition stops this. Rather then wasting the activations of other units freeing up the node, the node can move itself before the turn even begins, and negate the engaging model.

[Chris Cuevas]

The Chimera is garbage

When folks say stuff like this it really makes me wonder... :(

I guess its time to dissect.


Apparition is useless because a gust of wind will blow it over,

I'm assuming you mean it can't take a ton of damage ( ie. gust of wind).If so, that's correct.


so it never gets into combat

Apparition means its actually quite good at getting into combat. With it's 11.5 threat range , counting its first 2in. of non-lateral movement, the Chimera should be choosing who and when its charging as opposed to vice versa.


Almost any heavy that gets into combat with it will completely scrap it in one turn

What a strange thing to declare! :) Its as if someone had the temerity to walk up to you, and start ranting and raving about the sky being blue.

Yes. The Chimera will get killed by a heavy...

All jokes aside, the Chimera is amazing. Its a relatively cheap arc node that has a hard time being pinned down. What more do you want?