Forgoing the Stone

[bensliver]

I just recently gave Privateer some feedback on the Kriel Stone saying that it was a pain and still very much an 'auto include'. I suggested that they simply assume that it was always present, like how it is now assumed that the Harbinger cast martyrdom, and give our models more armor. Anyway I wrote a big old post about why ect. in the other Kriel Stone thread that I don't think anyone read because it was so long.

Anywho, I never use the stone because I don't like it. I've looked through lots of the lists in the list section and pretty much all of them have the stone in it. What I was wondering was if anyone else refused to use the Kriel Stone and how their field testing was going.

If you use the Kriel Stone, do you feel that you are at a disadvantage without it? I'm curious to see if perhaps I'm just not very good at trolls.

[darisus]

I play menoth alot and never go anywhere without a chior or vassal. They are an auto-include in 99% of every menoth players lists. According to what your saying maybe PP should jsut give every menoth players jacks the option to not be shot, get more hit/dmg, or be immune to magic, oh, and with a vassal get enliven, an extra attack, or arcane bolt also. Just because a support piece is this good and everyone plays it does not mean PP should auto-include its abbilities into an army. And sort of related to your question would i feel at a disadvantage without my support pieces? YES, if i was not playing them and another menoth player saw me he would probably laugh and say thanks for the win.

[Verjigorm]

Everytime I've used the thing, I've felt like I had a weight around my neck, dragging me down. I dropped it out, and I've had nothing but good feelings. I'm not anchored to the KSB, and it allows me to run my list alot mroe agressively and shove Trollkin boots down people's throat. I've been abusing Hero's Tragedy every game I could, as well. I''ve over-all enjoyed not trying to stay in the KSB's slow bubble, or trying to keep it topped up on fury.

To me, the +2 ARM is pretty much a worthless ability. Charging infantry still kill our warriors, Jacks still kill our stuff, and it only buffs the beasts a 'lil bit. All in all I primarly included it for the Elder's abilities, because I feel those are possible game-breakers:
1) Continous Effects do bad things to infantry. Being able to shake those off helps a great deal. It's worth it's weight in gold vs. Cryx and Menoth.
2)Spirit Chaser: Incorp and Stealth can be issues. Stealth isn't much of one, because anything within range of the KSB is probably within 5" of anything ranged. But if you don't have this, Incorp can run over you. Important to have, especially since there's not alot of magic weapons in Trolls to go around.
3)The +1 STR ability. Cool, but due to the short range of the KSB's effect, You're going to struggle use this as a charge wil ltypically carry you out of it's protective Aura, while the KSB is usually behind the lines, and medium bases can be difficult to shift around to allow the dang thang to get up front and personal.

I think that it could be changed in a number of ways:
1) Keep it the same, except for making it a special action to do the Aura. The KSB can now run and stuff, so that your army isn't further slowed down, which leads to taking charges on the chin, which the KSB still doesn't help(+2 ARM, while a charge is generally about +3 damage...so a net -1!) to mitigate.
2) Make the KSB work similar to the choir in that you don't have to be within range of the Stone, but within range of a model in the unit. In this case, I would consider dropping the fury-based range aspect of it, imho. LEave the Fury for a Vault, so that if you screw up you can always call on it.

My thoughts, nothing more, nothing less.

[bensliver]

I play menoth alot and never go anywhere without a chior or vassal. They are an auto-include in 99% of every menoth players lists. According to what your saying maybe PP should jsut give every menoth players jacks the option to not be shot, get more hit/dmg, or be immune to magic, oh, and with a vassal get enliven, an extra attack, or arcane bolt also. Just because a support piece is this good and everyone plays it does not mean PP should auto-include its abbilities into an army. And sort of related to your question would i feel at a disadvantage without my support pieces? YES, if i was not playing them and another menoth player saw me he would probably laugh and say thanks for the win.

That's a different situation because there are several options to choose from. If the choir only gave Protectorate jacks the +2 / +2 then I would just say give it to them all of the time. Why waste a player's money on these models when you could make the warjacks better and actually do something interesting with the unit?

I'd much rather say "Yeah! I'm going to take the Kriel Stone because it does X and that's cool!" than "I guess I'll take the Kriel Stone so my stuff stops dying." I would own this unit if it wasn't boring as all get-out.

@ Verjigorm (http://privateerpressforums.com/member.php?u=24801)

+2 arm is a very significant change when taking ranged attacks or you're talking about multi-wound models. The difference between armor 18 and armor 20 is a pretty big deal to me. Anyway, it's good to hear you're having success without it, what models and tactics are you using?

[zpavlov]

You can also try bringing a krielstone, but not treating it like a linchpin unit. Run it fast with your army, and pop the aura when everyone's stuck in. They don't hold up your army that way, and you don't have a tactical brick for the enemy to focus on. The downside is that any close-call deaths early on will be blamed on the krielstone being lazy....

[Saerko]

While I wouldn't turn down a global +2 ARM increase, I like the KSB. Honestly, it's a rare game that I can't get the range on the Aura up to 11" by turn 2, and my army rarely needs more than a 22" spread anyway (weird terrain aside). Plus, it's also a good source of other buffs with the SSE, such as the +1 STR buff and the dissolution of continuous effects.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I pretty much have two lists I go for.

Beast heavy or multiwound heavy gets the KSB.
Light infantry lists I can generally find a better use for the points.

One thing is that it really helps our warlocks and beasts be much more survivable. It might be worth bringing the min unit just for protecting your beasts and warlock.

[Verjigorm]

@ Verjigorm (http://privateerpressforums.com/member.php?u=24801)

+2 arm is a very significant change when taking ranged attacks or you're talking about multi-wound models. The difference between armor 18 and armor 20 is a pretty big deal to me. Anyway, it's good to hear you're having success without it, what models and tactics are you using?

Models i've used in every game so far: Axer, Impaler, SSC and Fell Caller. I've also taken to using KWs a great deal, bushwhackers in my grissel lists, and Champs in my Madrak lists.

I've basically adopted my old merc tactics to Trolls, which could be described as a "smashmouth" offense. I run my trollkin(kriels, most often) into the middle of the action, and grind it out. I'm very agressive, and very rapid with my trolls, and it's paid off well.

Hence why I find the +2ARM to be of minor importance. Sure, it makes you not die as easy to POW 10 shooting or Blasts, and it does help the beasts and champs out alot. But it encourages such a defensive mindset, that players throw away the initiative. And that's a bad thing, imho.

[Saerko]

I never use the KSB in my Grim lists; I don't really worry about charges, so the +2 ARM never seems terribly relevant. Plus, it costs 5 PC to bring the aura up to a decent distance, and that's a minimum unit of Scattergunners or Bushwackers. I really like SG's with Cross-Country, so I leave the stone at home.

Actually, now that I think about it, I bring less support pieces in general now. The FC's buff working only in melee has seriously reduced its usefulness, so if you're running an army with a significant ranged component the KSB is about close to worthless.

[Soylent]

Those who feel chained by the KSB. Have you ever thought about moving out of it? Honestly the main reason I have the KSB is for my caster. Extra armor means a tougher time at assassinations. the JMWC is the same points for a min unit, Arcane shield only affects a single model/unit so why not the protective aura? Don't feel locked down by it, think of it as a shelter to charge out of.

[Ravir]

And they do actually attack things when all else fails. One of my favorite caster kills was when the enemy charged in and failed an assassination chain, but most everything was left too tied up to deal with him. A Fell Caller softened him up, and a Stone Scribe finished him off.

[HandsomeDan]

I forgo the Krielstone a lot and usually regret it. Its often the difference between a Dire Troll living or dying. So its really simple math: if it takes a WW 5 swings to kill your dire, he could have had 10 more health left at the end of that encounter had the KSB been near. That means even if that WW had forced for a sixth and final hit it probably still wouldn't have been able to kill on average rolls. And I've witnessed this situation plenty of times so this is not just theory-machine, although it never happens quite as cleanly as I've just made it out to be. Also if you run a game without the KSB you can take a running toll of how many models are killed by damage rolls that only exceed armor by 1 or 2 pts. Its always amazed me how many would have made it if my KSB had been there. And now, more than ever, the KSB has a profound effect on the survivability of champions. Without the KSB enough pow 12 blunderbusses will eventually eat away your champions, but that +2 armor makes it almost impossible.

I think if you are going to forgo the KSB you really need to have an army built around that thought. Give it a really heavy emphasis on speed or take advantage of all the pathfinder abilities trolls can get. There are definitely advantages to be had for fast moving trolls who aren't bricking.

[Verjigorm]

I forgo the Krielstone a lot and usually regret it. Its often the difference between a Dire Troll living or dying. So its really simple math: if it takes a WW 5 swings to kill your dire, he could have had 10 more health left at the end of that encounter had the KSB been near. That means even if that WW had forced for a sixth and final hit it probably still wouldn't have been able to kill on average rolls. And I've witnessed this situation plenty of times so this is not just theory-machine, although it never happens quite as cleanly as I've just made it out to be. Also if you run a game without the KSB you can take a running toll of how many models are killed by damage rolls that only exceed armor by 1 or 2 pts. Its always amazed me how many would have made it if my KSB had been there. And now, more than ever, the KSB has a profound effect on the survivability of champions. Without the KSB enough pow 12 blunderbusses will eventually eat away your champions, but that +2 armor makes it almost impossible.

I think if you are going to forgo the KSB you really need to have an army built around that thought. Give it a really heavy emphasis on speed or take advantage of all the pathfinder abilities trolls can get. There are definitely advantages to be had for fast moving trolls who aren't bricking.

Which may be the crux of my strategy. I've been using Grissel alot lately, and she's worked pretty well without the KSB. I find her speed is absolutely phenomonal in the right list. Who ever heard of trolls hit and running legion?