Upcoming Tournament

[basher]

Hello! As the titel says we are going to have a tournament and i was thinking about painting a Legion army becouse i really like eThagros. Plz tell me what you think about the eThagros list and give me some advises on a second list that is not using pThagros or eThagrosh and that is a good matchup aginst armys that eThagrosh can have some problems with.

eThagrosh wbp -3
Carnivean 11
Carnivean 11
Typhon 12
Shredder 2
Blighted Nyss Shepherd 1
Blighted Nyss Shepherd 1

[thag-rush]

Elylyth stealth armies are a good matchup to the thagzilla list.

I'd drop the two shepherds and use a forsaken instead. Maybe use a harrier instead of the shredder to give papathag the autohit animus, and to hunt solos. He can always poop out a shredder later.

[Neutralyze]

elylyth is a strong candidate along with Saeryn

[Necra-Chi]

With E-Lylyth or Saeryn you don't even need to change the list really. Just add another lesser or forsaken.

[basher]

With E-Lylyth or Saeryn you don't even need to change the list really. Just add another lesser or forsaken.

Hello Necra-Chi i read your post about eThagrosh and how the list should look like and i really liked it. so your telling me to use eLylyth or Saeryn and just add a Lesser or Forsaken but is that the best thing to do? do you not have problems with any list you are fighting against with eThagrosh so that it would be nice to have a counter list?

[Neutralyze]

honestly with Elylyth i dont think you need two carniveans. i favor Seraphs and with her along with Typhon.

[thag-rush]

honestly with Elylyth i dont think you need two carniveans. i favor Seraphs and with her along with Typhon.

This. She works beautifully with seraphs.

[basher]

i like saeryn better so i think im gonna use her if you cannot tell me why i should use elylyth. but im still not sure that it's the best list to use as a backup plan.

[thag-rush]

stealth.

Stealthing your entire force changes the game completely.

A fast relatively unshootable army is a great counterpart to a trudge ahead beatstick list like ethags.

It gives you a nimbleness and ability to exploit the board in a totally different way. And her feat + pincushion is maginificent with anything that has a ranged attack. Pincushion sort of allows you to maintain the Manifest Destiny feel without using ethag.

[basher]

but i hate focus 5 and i think thats a big disadvantage.

[thag-rush]

eh? She's super fury efficient. If she was fury 5 and depended heavily on casting lots of spells... but really you just drop stealth, upkeep it each turn and cast pincushion and boost when the time comes.

[Thunder_God]

It's true, after being used to Focus 6 as the low and Focus 7 on a lot of casters, it's hard to stomach Fury 5.

[Thunder_God]

Also, let's be honest, Saeryn is pretty neat too. Get both, and see which one you like better. Both are good casters.

[thag-rush]

I'm a total newb and I haven't run into issues with it. Hell I often find myself over stacked with fury with pThag and burning it off. Our casters, and our army over all is very fury efficient. Especially with shepherds and foraken.

I've only ever played legion though, so I'm not really spoiled by another mechanic.

[thag-rush]

Also, let's be honest, Saeryn is pretty neat too. Get both, and see which one you like better. Both are good casters.

I think thats the truth of it right there, but I definitely wouldn't right off Elyl because of fury 5. She's amazing... possibly my favorite caster.

:looks over shoulder to make sure eThag didn't see that:

[basher]

but after i have get my dudes in range so that i can shot on my opponent the can charge me and thats where i need the focus backup. Right?

[Thunder_God]

You're supposed to kill him first.

You're not supposed to let an enemy model charge Lylyth, she's not built to handle that. What gets charged, expect to die. Carnivean will take concentrated losses, Striders may live on with DEF 15 but then not do much due to being stuck in melee, etc.

Also, what's this "focus backup" and why do you need it? You can't keep Fury to overboost armour, just to transfer hits. Also, even if you keep Fury on the Warlock, if the enemy can attack, they will, and you'll use it in order to transfer, usually to the detriment of your beasts who have higher ARM than the casters.

[thag-rush]

Elyl really shouldn't be in charge range. She's got 12" range on her bow, and she's stealthed so you really shouldn't have to divert much damage off of her until you move in for the kill. Plus until the "kill" she's really wondering around with 4 fury(-1 for the stealth upkeep) and not a whole lot to do with it.

If you move in for the kill, fail and leave yourself in charge range... well you're likely gonna be SOL regardless of which caster you have. How much fury do you think Thags is going to have after MD and boosting/buying a few hits.

I'm not arguing with you, if you don't like her... you don't like her. But I think it's pretty widely accepted that she's one of our strongest casters. Not liking her because of her low fury and looking at it in perspective of how fury efficient she is and how little she should be taking hits anyway.... seems awful shortsighted.

[thag-rush]

You're supposed to kill him first.

You're not supposed to let an enemy model charge Lylyth, she's not built to handle that. What gets charged, expect to die. Carnivean will take concentrated losses, Striders may live on with DEF 15 but then not do much due to being stuck in melee, etc.

Also, what's this "focus backup" and why do you need it? You can't keep Fury to overboost armour, just to transfer hits. Also, even if you keep Fury on the Warlock, if the enemy can attack, they will, and you'll use it in order to transfer, usually to the detriment of your beasts who have higher ARM than the casters.

She doesn't even have a melee weapon... she shouldn't be anywhere NEAR the scrum.

[basher]

what i meant with focus backup is use spells to do my dudes better in close combat and of course i don't want eLylyth in close combat but i meant my warbeasts i the get in range to shot the will get charged by a jack or something and that hurts.

[basher]

i have never talkt about getting my caster inte charge range i have talked about my beast (Dudes).

[thag-rush]

what benefit is there in camping fury for your beasts sake on you opponents turn?

You'll still get to heal them and cast as normally after you leach the following turn.

I don't understand at all what you are saying here.

[Neutralyze]

if your worried about playing against ethags then i would do Saeryn since she stands a slightly better chance due to her feat and being base defense 18 against his ranged attacks.

[basher]

i don't want them on my opponents turn i want to cast a magic ability like manifest destiny thats make my beast better.

[basher]

it's not only hordes im worried about it's warmachine teams to like menoth and khador. and beasts are hard but they can't take a charge and that's why i don't like eLylyth becouse her abilitys are good but they may not shot that many times before they get charged.

[Neutralyze]

it's not only hordes im worried about it's warmachine teams to like menoth and khador. and beasts are hard but they can't take a charge and that's why i don't like eLylyth becouse her abilitys are good but they may not shot that many times before they get charged.

with access to Slipstream you will get the charge before your opponent does. typhon threat range is 12.5 for melee and 20.5 for his gunfighter spray attacks, the angels with SS and a charge are 14" of threat. you soften up the squishy targets then hit htem in melee.

[thag-rush]

i don't want them on my opponents turn i want to cast a magic ability like manifest destiny thats make my beast better.

Why wouldn't you have fury on her to cast from on your turn?

You've totally lost me at this point. She leaches fury from her beasts each turn casts as necesary, beasts build fury, wash rinse repeat. You're kind of talking in circles here.

[thag-rush]

it's not only hordes im worried about it's warmachine teams to like menoth and khador. and beasts are hard but they can't take a charge and that's why i don't like eLylyth becouse her abilitys are good but they may not shot that many times before they get charged.

So what you don't like is her abilities, not the fact that she's fury 5?

That's perfectly fair. I don't agree, but it's fair.

You realize manifest destiny doesn't help you take a charge any better either right? If you want to make your guys harder to hit, take pthags.

[basher]

thag-rush: i have fury to cast things with but she don't have any spells that helps my beasts in close combat and when they are in renge of there ranged attacks my oppoent can charge them with there army the next round.

Neutralyze: thats true but if i use a range attack my opponent will charge me and if i get the charge eLylythe spells will not help me very mutch right?

[Neutralyze]

thag-rush: i have fury to cast things with but she don't have any spells that helps my beasts in close combat and when they are in renge of there ranged attacks my oppoent can charge them with there army the next round.

Neutralyze: thats true but if i use a range attack my opponent will charge me and if i get the charge eLylythe spells will not help me very mutch right?

this depends on what your up against. you are spd 7 with 12" range. if you are shooting at stuff thats is 10" away from you (lets say a 1 wound trooper for now) you would kill it and move back. there are not that many models in the game that can charge 12" without assistance of some sort. most jacks range between spd 5-6 and some are even 7. it would need reach in order to get to you if it is spd 7.

you are worrying far too much about getting hit. Elylyth is all about the battle on your terms.

[thag-rush]

Dude... if you're charging in with two carniveans and a typhon... you really don't need that much help. Buy boosts and more attacks, Typhon/carn can take down pretty much anything in one round of melee without buffs. Especially considering taht since they were stealthed, they really haven't taken any damage up to that point.

If you're reconfiguring your list to be more shooty with elyl, seraphs, angels, etc... then I hate to tell you this... but they won't be alive for the counter charge. Thats sort of the point. When she blows her feat and pin cushions and she, the seraphs and angels start blowing their load... it's lights out. Great list for assassination runs.

[basher]

how can i move after i shot and the range is sp 8 and sp 10

[thag-rush]

please note, I'm not trying to sell you on elyl. If you don't like her, you don't like her.

I'm just trying to explain some clear misunderstandings you seem to have. As a rule though, if you have no interest in ranged wins... elyl is probably rightly not for you. IT's your loss though, you're denying yourself a whole half of legions effectiveness.

[thag-rush]

how can i move after i shot and the range is sp 8 and sp 10

her range is 12" on her bow first off, 16" on the feat. And she has swift hunter, which allows her to advance 2" after a destroying an enemy. She also advances 2" if fired upon and missed (likely with stealth).

It seems like the crux of the issue here is that you don't seem to understand you can win on range alone. Effectively.

[basher]

i see why she's good with the angelius and the seraph but the hole discussion started when someone said that i should use eLylyth or Saeryn and don't change my list and that seamed kinda bad.

[basher]

im not talking about her at all im talking about my beasts and that they cant take a charge from a jack or warbeast and i want them to be safe. my warcaster are not even gonna be in the front row she is gonna stay behind my jacks becouse thats how i play. and when i need her she is not gonna be to far away so that i can get help from her if i want. but with that siad i am worrid about me beasts and that they will be charged.

[thag-rush]

i see why she's good with the angelius and the seraph but the hole discussion started when someone said that i should use eLylyth or Saeryn and don't change my list and that seamed kinda bad.

It's not as effective, but it's still hella strong. Here's why.

1. Stealth is the best defensive buff you can give you. They are pretty much assured to hit enemy lines in perfect health.
2. Both the carnivean and Typhon have access to melee sprays (well spray in the Carns instance) Which plays wonderfully with pin cushion. Sort of a mini manifets destiny.
3. Carn and Typhon are really good to go without caster support. They can tear anything apart on their baseline stats. Sure Manifest Destiny and teh link make them down right trecherous, but it's not even close to necesary to get full effectiveness out of them.
4. Elyls feat is still usefull for spraying the tar out of units. They all get an extra shot. Thats alot of spray.

So all in all, not as optimal a list for eLyl as some seraphs and Angeliuss. But damned strong and as you had requested earlier, good for getting you past armies that would have been a problem for thag... likely armies with range that stealth takes care of or lots of infantry that your feated multiple sprays takes care of.

If you were limited on models, eLyl is a great way to use teh same army in a totally different way by only switching the caster. But obviously you'll have a much more refined army if you switch the beasts for ones that really get to abuse her feat with the range.

[basher]

am i wrong becouse were i play jacks and warbeast as a 11-13 inch threat range.

[Neutralyze]

im not talking about her at all im talking about my beasts and that they cant take a charge from a jack or warbeast and i want them to be safe. my warcaster are not even gonna be in the front row she is gonna stay behind my jacks becouse thats how i play. and when i need her she is not gonna be to far away so that i can get help from her if i want. but with that siad i am worrid about me beasts and that they will be charged.

your beasts will be fine because our beasts typically rely upon getting the first strike. in the list with Ethags the carniveans will sit at armor 20 with Spiney growth if need be and Typhon can sit at armor 19 with dragons blood then armor 21 with Spiney growth or his animus on him for a possible 22 armor (healing).

legion is about getting the first hit and crushing when it comes.

[Neutralyze]

typhon has a threat range of 10.5 without Slipstream. at a 35 pt game you will suffer from low model counts which can be a hinderance depending on who you are up against.

[basher]

ok so with all that said can you send me a list on eLylyth and then tell me against witch list you think eLylyth works better then ethagrosh.

[thag-rush]

im not talking about her at all im talking about my beasts and that they cant take a charge from a jack or warbeast and i want them to be safe. my warcaster are not even gonna be in the front row she is gonna stay behind my jacks becouse thats how i play. and when i need her she is not gonna be to far away so that i can get help from her if i want. but with that siad i am worrid about me beasts and that they will be charged.

right... but what exactly is eThag doing to protect your beasts in the charge? And since when can typhon or carnivean not take a charge from a Jack. Have you not seen their animi? SELF SUFFICIENT.

Your logic is really... lost on me. It seems you just really want to take Saeryn for her feat that protects you in melee for one round. Which is fine... but thats just one round. Honestly in my opinion it doesn't nearly offer the protection of stealth up until melee does.

Basically what I'm saying is if you want saeyrn take her, but your arguments against eLyl don't make any sense. So stop trying to sell yourself on something you're already sold on.

[Neutralyze]

ok so with all that said can you send me a list on eLylyth and then tell me against witch list you think eLylyth works better then ethagrosh.

I like using elylyth as an alternate list against Retribution and Cygnar due to the heavy range abilities of those armies on average.

the list i have been using at 35 pts is

Elylyth
Typhon
Angelius
Seraph
Striders + ua
Forsaken

it has done very well against cygnar and Retribution thus far. it is very capable of taking on a variety of lists.

[thag-rush]

ok so with all that said can you send me a list on eLylyth and then tell me against witch list you think eLylyth works better then ethagrosh.

At 35 I'd run...

eLyl
Seraphx2
Angelx2
Deathstalkerx2
and a forsaken that I'd do my best to keep hidden because she's the only unstealthed model.

Thats a whole lot of ninja kill right there.

Armies it would be to superior to ethags... Cygnar, Cryx, retribution, some protectorate builds.

You've got great ranged obviously. A terrific assasination kill mechanic with the Seraphs (especially when using the angels repulsion) and tremendous anti-jack with dual angels charging when necesary. Deatshtalkers do great at clearing solos and infantry and a forsaken to do what they do best.

[Neutralyze]

At 35 I'd run...

eLyl
Seraphx2
Angelx2
Deathstalkerx2
and a forsaken that I'd do my best to keep hidden because she's the only unstealthed model.

Thats a whole lot of ninja kill right there.

Armies it would be to superior to ethags... Cygnar, Cryx, retribution, some protectorate builds.

You've got great ranged obviously. A terrific assasination kill mechanic with the Seraphs (especially when using the angels repulsion) and tremendous anti-jack with dual angels charging when necesary. Deatshtalkers do great at clearing solos and infantry and a forsaken to do what they do best.

i wouldnt say it is superior to an ethags list. each list has its own merit.

[thag-rush]

poor wording on my behalf. I meant if I had two lists, those are the armies I'd use this one against.

Also I realize that list isn't for everyone. It runs bordering the red with fury, but thats how I like it. I just imagine "Highway to the danger zone" playing in my mind while I play. ;)

Your list is much more fury safe, and likely a better option. I just prefer lotsa beasts.

[basher]

right... but what exactly is eThag doing to protect your beasts in the charge? And since when can typhon or carnivean not take a charge from a Jack. Have you not seen their animi? SELF SUFFICIENT.

Your logic is really... lost on me. It seems you just really want to take Saeryn for her feat that protects you in melee for one round. Which is fine... but thats just one round. Honestly in my opinion it doesn't nearly offer the protection of stealth up until melee does.

Basically what I'm saying is if you want saeyrn take her, but your arguments against eLyl don't make any sense. So stop trying to sell yourself on something you're already sold on.

if you play eThagrosh right you will get the charge becouse you are not playing your list on the same way, eLylyth's list wants to shot and then they will get the charge opportunity (if your playing eLylyth with the same list as i use with eThagrosh) but with eThagrosh list you don't need the flames but they are a good backup and some times you are gonna use them before the charge. I don't know how your lists is being played were you are playing but were im playing it's all about the charge the thing we charge prob die and if it dont die it has 1-6 life left (at armour 20).

[Thunder_God]

Basher, the name of the game is "first attack", if you get charged, expect to suffer damage. This is true for all armies.

If you pack up on non-sprays with eLylyth, you get to shoot from 14"-16" away. It's rare the enemy will get to charge you from those distances.

[basher]

exactly thats why i like the caster with seraph and angelius but not with carnivean and thats what someone told me to play with my list but just change the caster and i think thats a bad idea but with my list and just change the caster i think Saeryn is the better choice. im i right?

[Thunder_God]

Usually, a mix of some sprays in will do you good for dedicated assassination and infantry clearing, since her feat gives you an extra spray, which is huge.

You could take Typhon and the rest be Angelii/Seraphs.

[basher]

that seams like a good list and im not saying that no one els told me about that but some one said that i should change my warlock and that's it and that's what i think is wrong not that eLylyth is bad but that i just can't change my warlock to eLylyth and everything will go fine.

[Neutralyze]

exactly thats why i like the caster with seraph and angelius but not with carnivean and thats what someone told me to play with my list but just change the caster and i think thats a bad idea but with my list and just change the caster i think Saeryn is the better choice. im i right?

Typhon is good with Elylyth because he has above average rat for our warbeasts and has pow 14 sprays. his sprays can be used to clear out infantry and spray through a bunch of models and get the opposing warlock or warcaster. he also gets 4 sprays with feat turn and he is also a beat stick in melee.

[basher]

I have another problem with a list that everbody in my local store talks alot about and that is a Harby list that looks like this:

Harby wj-5
Vanquisher 8
Revenger 6
Reckoner 8
Choir 3
Choir 3
Bastions 8
Covenant 2
Vassal 2

35 pts

The eThagrosh list that i want to use do it have a chance against this list and how should i play against this list?

[Neutralyze]

I have another problem with a list that everbody in my local store talks alot about and that is a Harby list that looks like this:

Harby wj-5
Vanquisher 8
Revenger 6
Reckoner 8
Choir 3
Choir 3
Bastions 8
Covenant 2
Vassal 2

35 pts

The eThagrosh list that i want to use do it have a chance against this list and how should i play against this list?

the deciding factor in most games is how well you play and position yourself not that a list is that much better than what you bring.

[basher]

thats true but the prob is that the vassal cast enliven on the jacks so that even if i get the charge the jack is going to make a full advance away from my warbeast. And on hes next turn charge it and kill it.

[Thunder_God]

Kill Harby instead with sprays/ranged/angelii

You can also run models to stop an enlivened jacks from walking away, by blocking its escape routes.

And kill the Vassals?

[basher]

the problem is that she has martyr so it's hard to kill the vassal and hes always 8 inches behind he's jacks. killing harby with ranged attacks works but the problem with that is that he has alot of focus left on her so har armour is around 20.

[basher]

sorry the list i posted is wrong this is the correct list:

Harby
Guardian
Vanquisher
Avatar
Choir
Vassal
Bastions or Crusader+Covenant

[Neutralyze]

while she has the vassal and martyr, it doesnt make it unbeatable. your approach to this is that you will be unable to get around anything and thus be crushed before you can do anything. firstly you will out threat range him with your warbeasts and secondly its all about where he positions after his enliven move. you might be able to get teh charge with something else on the same target. you never know.