Reeves and StoneWard/WoldStalker comparision

[bushman101]

Trying out our ranged options has got me thinking. Circle pays a premium price for rather lack-luster ranged units. I'm going to send some feed-back about this, but before that, I want to get some discussion and see what others think.

For what they do, Reeves are way to expensive (IMHO). Their stat line is bad, and their abilities are great except that their range is so short. It looks like the unit was designed to sit in a forest and shoot stuff with the aiming bonus, but no smart opponent is going to let that happen. Every game I have got with them has been the same: advance, shoot, enemy ties up unit and they try in vain to hit things with MAT 5. If the unit is to stay as is, I propose they be priced 4 for min/ 6 for max. When I see the Reeves stats, they remind me of their Wolves of O counterparts. I don't see why they shouldn't cost the same as well.

The Stoneward and WoldStalkers are in the same boat. The unit have some neat abilities, but the price is a factor. While they have the same dismal range as Reeves, they have +1 RAT, +2 POW and abilities that will allow them to get out of melee to shoot again. I think the unit would be better priced at 5.

What do ya'll think?

[Blaque]

I agree, the Stoneward and Woldstalkers should be priced at 5. If anything, its because they only have five attacks amongst them and while they hit hard, they are squishy, short ranged and just not as good of shots or easier to defend as Widowmakers, who pay one per shot as is.

Reeves are obviously underwpoered as we have a supposedly balanced unit right in our options that blows them out of the water. Reeves need to go down in price if anything since every rule save Dual Shot is on Nyss, as well as Nyss being usperior in Melee and Ranged. Reeves don't right now justify being more then PC 8 for the full unit.

And stuff.

[DudeOfOrboros]

Woldstalkers are just fine at 6 for me. What other ranged units in the game are priced at 5?

[Mutton]

Min Range units (the same size at the Woldshrimp) are often 5pts. And they get 6 shooty members.

[Dantes]

Woldstalkers are just fine at 6 for me. What other ranged units in the game are priced at 5?
Nyss Archers 5 for 5
Farrow Brigands 5 for 5
Scattergunners 5 for 5
Pyg Bushwackers 5 for 5
Bloodtrackers 5 for 5

And that's just Hordes.

[DemonCalibre]

I am on the fence about Wold Stalkers.

I don't mind that at six, but I would really like them to get the +1 to hit from Concerted Fire back.

On the flip side I can see them not getting it back, my Wold Stalkers when I carefully play them generally make a big impact in my games, by either softening up an enemy heavy that I don't have to use primal to kill it, or honestly racking up caster kills.

With the new power and accessability of the double handed throw, Stalkers can be pretty ugly. One of our beasts double handed throws a chump at the caster, Stalkers drop in 12/13/14/15/16 on caster for the win.

They are one of my favorite units, so I will give them plenty of play time, without the bonus to hit 6 seems a little steep, though at 5 points, they are a bargain for the level of ranged firepower they can put out when carefully applied.


Also I am not sure I would use Widowmakers as a valid comparison. I am pretty sure Widowmakers are slightly to good on purpose, as they are the only non-character unit, non-UA in the game that is really affected by FA1.

Edit: Un Nyss are 7 for the base unit, and I wouldn't really put Farrow in the race for ranged unit, unless you love packing Rat 4 no CRA

[Mutton]

He's talking Blighted Nyss; and it's 6 for 5

[bushman101]

The Woldstalkers have had a very small impact on all the games I've played. So much that they practically get ignored by my opponents. In the end, the unit ends up holding a flank, keeping the enemy from getting behind the lines.

KD + Concert Fire is neat, but I would not build a list behind it personally. If I can toss something on a opposing caster, I feel I have better options to finish the job. This might be just a matter of taste however.

Also, Self-Sacrifice can lead to difficult decisions if you let your StoneWard get pounded on. I don't want to lose my ability to shoot, but I don't want to lose my abilities and formation (StoneWard is a Officer, not a Leader and the WoldStalkers have a Command of 4).

[blitzmonkey]

The Woldstalkers have had a very small impact on all the games I've played. So much that they practically get ignored by my opponents. In the end, the unit ends up holding a flank, keeping the enemy from getting behind the lines.

KD + Concert Fire is neat, but I would not build a list behind it personally. If I can toss something on a opposing caster, I feel I have better options to finish the job. This might be just a matter of taste however.

Also, Self-Sacrifice can lead to difficult decisions if you let your StoneWard get pounded on. I don't want to lose my ability to shoot, but I don't want to lose my abilities and formation (StoneWard is a Officer, not a Leader and the WoldStalkers have a Command of 4).

Being a primary opponent of Bushman's (anything negative he posts about Legion is due to me lol), I can say that thus far, when he puts down the stalkers.....I ignore them. They do nothing to scare me. I have had my deathstalkers just rip them to shreds. I don't mean this as a flex factor, but that they don't see to be doing much. They have have a quasi-CRA. I personally think they should get stealth.

[LEJKaya]

Woldstalkers should be less, they are not a top class ranged unit and certainly not 1 point less than the nyss!

Reeves... well the last thing Circle needs is a no frills shooting unit.
They totally fail to fit in with the entire faction. There is no element of hit & Run, no control, no manoeuvrability, no speed...

Hell, in MkI I didn't even take them when they had prowl and I had 3 war wolves in the list!

They need to be good at moving and shooting, or have some new ability that helps them mesh with the faction... currently to be taken they'd have to be as cheap as winter guard.

[DemonCalibre]

After coming back from a couple games tonight, Wold Stalkers did great in both games, I kept them in reserve till it was time to strike, in my first game they chewed up some Man 'o War Shock Troopers, I got behind them and hammered them in the back, after they untangled themselves from a Drakhun which they later killed(not before he killed my Wyrd, but they still smoked them), They eventually got beat down by his whole army, but I felt my investment payed off.

They did great against Skorne as well, I used my druids to pull his Cetrati out of shield wall then hammered them, they were a big part of what kept me in the game.

The only thing I kinda of want back is the +1 from Concerted Fire, other then that I like the unit a great deal(I have run them every game)

[Nalik]

It doesn't matter what they cost if a unit that can't do much. To be worth any amount of points a model needs to be effective, otherwise your better off using those points towards more effective models. I feel very passionately that as they stand now both units are utter crap no matter how much they cost. The models themselves need tweaked, not the points.

[bushman101]

Mostly, people are agreeing with me, so I'm gonna go ahead and send some feed back on this

thanks

[havukwrecka]

THey were perfect before and the sacrifice was only common sense, not really a buff imo.

Sucks they lost +1 to concerted fire. Makes me wonder why they took away the DEF buff. More double nerfage for an already under-popular unit.

They will still be in my Mohsar list but only because the rest of the list works with them.

[Masero]

I agree that wold stalkers should be 5. However 4/6 is too cheap for reeves.

If they stay the same they should be 5/8, I'd prefer losing double-shot for something useful though.

[Mutton]

I still wouldn't take Reeves at 5/8. In the end, they are 10/10s with Hunter; really not worth it. Maybe at 4/7, but I think something should be done to make them useful instead.

[Masero]

Would war wolves becoming wolves of orboros again make reeves worthwhile at 5/8?

I think any feedback saying they should be 4/6 would be instantly disregarded by PP. They seem to feel strongly that Reeves and Venators are good. Why else would they price them at 6/10?

[Mutton]

Would war wolves becoming wolves of orboros again make reeves worthwhile at 5/8?

I think any feedback saying they should be 4/6 would be instantly disregarded by PP. They seem to feel strongly that Reeves and Venators are good. Why else would they price them at 6/10?

Massive amounts of drain cleaner. I have proof.

[Menoth's Gambit]

I've never been able to convince myself to buy Wldstalkers. I generally avoid weighing in on units I don't play.

I like Reeves. The issue before them as all would agree though is RNG. I tend to try and hold them back as a late game piece. After all the skirmish stuff is removed, they are getting double tap CRAs against better targets.

My problem is that they only tend to make it in Baldur and Morvhana lists. There is a lot of stuff competing to get on the table with them.

[Bladestorm]

On the woldstalkers:

Rat 6, rng 10, pow 12x5 that can become pow 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 is fairly solid for output. Throw in Zephyr for getting out of melee, moving some with the aiming bonus or moving away after firing and they feel like a worthwhile unit over all, but they do feel overpriced at 6 points for five shooters, given the competition for the points in a Circle force right now.

[DeeCius DeadCloud]

They need to be good at moving and shooting, or have some new ability that helps them mesh with the faction... currently to be taken they'd have to be as cheap as winter guard.

That won't work either, because even at the same points as Winterguard, they'd fail to do as much as a unit that possesses easy access to oh so many buffs its insane. Theres a lot of Khador lists just based around WG swarms that wouldn't happen with Reeves even if they was cheap.

Reeves just lack so much right now that they're a bit of a joke and have been since mark 1 outside of Mohsar lists, but even then other units could be mean with Mohsar too.