Serricsteel properties

[duskasylum]

This probably seems to be a foolish question, but it has been a topic of discussion within my IK group. What are all the properties of Serricsteel? The book seems unclear and most of us are interpreting it differently.

[Whimper]

Serricsteel is lighter, it has a higher Hardness, and it bypasses the damage reduction on things with DR x/Serricsteele, most notably steam armor and steamjacks.

I thought the rules in the IKCG were pretty clear about it.

Was there a specific property that was causing confusion amongst your group? Is someone arguing that Serricsteel is the same as cold iron or adamantium?

[PsychoLaughs]

what i always found confusing is that seric steel firearms have a different critical threat range than their regular counterparts without ever getting an explanation why.

[The_Gun_Nut]

It is odd. One would think that the ammunition would convey that property, and not the weapon itself.

[kc7sbp]

It also appears to be that serricsteel is one of the key ingredients for making magelock firearms.

[Whimper]

Really? I thought it was a different metal, a special "magelock alloy"...



As for the different critical hit stats on Serricsteel rifles, the higher critical % reflects that the weapons are lighter, better balanced, and easier to aim. The reduced multiplier reflects... um, I have no idea.

[Morgan Coalburn]

It is odd. One would think that the ammunition would convey that property, and not the weapon itself.

I'd second that. As far as I know any mention of armour-piercing (read: serricsteel) guns in the IK also states that the ammunition is special.

[duskasylum]

Actually the problem that is arising within my group is, how much lighter is serricsteel, we understand it's lighter, but it reads almost as if it should be one-fifth the weight of steel or one-fifth less the weight...So which is it is the main question.

[Whimper]

Oh, that's easy. It's "one fifth lighter", not "one fifth the weight". It's an error in the writing, which is corrected in the examples.


Items made from this lesser Serricsteel are lighter than normal and more durable than standard steel. They are one-fifth the normal weight of steel armor and weapons


Additionally, weapons and armor made from [quenched] Serricsteel are lighter than normal, at one-fifth the normal weight for a standard item.

The above were written by somebody at PP who didn't study his/her maths.

Examples:


So, a suit of full plate made from true [quenched] Serricsteel would weigh 40 pounds instead of the normal 50 pounds.

A military rifle weighs 10 lbs. A Serricsteel military rifle weighs 8 lbs.


You have to look at it in terms of physics. Steel has a mass of 8,000 kg per cubic meter. Something weighing only 1 fifth of that would have a mass of 1,600 kg per cubic meter. But that's lighter than even aluminium foil! The only metals that light are things like pure beryllium or magnesium. If you made a slashing or bludgeoning weapon that weighed as little as a box of facial tissues, it's just not going to be effective. You need to have some mass behind your swings, or they'll do no good at all.

Serricsteel is meant to be a combination of a special new steel alloy and a forging technique based on hammering flat folded & twisted layers. It sounds pretty much like Damascus, actually. But any weapon alloy weighing less than tin foil isn't any kind of steel at all, it's in the realm of "absolute silliness".

[Morgan Coalburn]

Serricsteel is meant to be a combination of a special new steel alloy and a forging technique based on hammering flat folded & twisted layers. It sounds pretty much like Damascus, actually.

The description of the physical appearance of serricsteel certainly suggests that, as do the pictures, what with the wavy patterns in the metal.

[Carnage]

It also mentions that there is an alchemical component to it's manufacturing, IIRC

[StJason]

The description of the physical appearance of serricsteel certainly suggests that, as do the pictures, what with the wavy patterns in the metal.

They also mention that it is blue, green, or purple tinted in color. Which would be quite pretty I imagine. And distinctive. "Wait. Look at that guys sword! It's blue! Our armor is worthless! Run!"- type distinctive.

[Askew37]

It also appears to be that serricsteel is one of the key ingredients for making magelock firearms.

Nope, it's a different alloy. There was a big article on it in an older NQ. Basically during a clan feud, some metalurgists from Rhul had their supply lines of coal and coke cut off. The started to experiment with other materials in place of coal and coke to make strong steel; particularly they used a variation of the recipe that creates special metals used in Rhulic cortexes.

The resulting metal was as strong as steel, had a VERY high melting point, and reacted strangely to arcane energies. The metal was interesting but considered a novelty, and the supply lines were reopened so there was no need for it. It only saw use in the occasional cortex of steamjack that needed to endure very high temperatures (very small models, models mining near volcanic vents, etc). It wasn't until Cygnar commissioned the Rhulic clans to find a metal that could endure the energies gun mages were putting through their weapons. This was around the founding of the Tempest Academy, circa 200 AR or about that. The Rhulic metalurgists remembered the odd recipe, made a few guns with it for the budding gun mages to experiment with and the rest is IK history.

[Askew37]

Serricsteel is meant to be a combination of a special new steel alloy and a forging technique based on hammering flat folded & twisted layers. It sounds pretty much like Damascus, actually.

Talk to anyone who has swung a real Damascus sword and they'll testify that the slight weight reduction does wondrous things. It's cutting power and strength is also amazing, even if statistically it's not that huge of a difference. The small percentage can be felt and utilized by it's wielder more than the math would have you believe. The same I'm assuming would ring true of Serricsteel and Quenched Serricsteel.

[gr8sword]

Fantasy materials can do wonderous things. Serrcisteel certainly boasts those qualities (using fantasy materials in its makeup allow for that). It's not unlike the fantasy material of mithril that is half the weight of steel and twice as strong. Heck, I want 20 swords with those qualities!

As someone who has done cutting tests and demonstrations with Damascus steel and standard steel sword (and studied some of the metallurgy involved in sword making), differences in weight are negligible and may be more about using techniques such as adding a fuller to the blade (incorrectly called a "blood grove" by the uninitiated) and possibly a more distinct tapering of the blade, i.e. less material equals less weight. As for the strength and cutting qualities: The harder you make steel the better it can retain a sharp edge. Consequently, it is more likely to break, and/or snap. Eastern swords such as the katana tended towards a hard steel with a very sharp edge (the core being softer) and were rather rigid with little flexibility. Western european swords tended to be "softer" and more flexible (they could withstand more repeated impact and were less likely to break). They could hold a sharp edge, but would dull more quickly. Neither is "better" IMHO, each has advantages and disadvantages. Plate armor usually wins against both. A man in full, gothic plate and mail for instance, is nearly imprvious to standard edged weapons. Heavy, bludgeoning weapons were instead used to bash, crush and deform the armor thus making it uncomfortable for the wearer to move and fight effectively (firearms begin to have the biggest impact on armor use of course).

I think the bottom line is: Serricsteel was designed for the Iron Kingdoms to have weapons that could affect warjack armor (I would never want to use the best forged sword and slam it into a bulldozer! Though if I had a serricsteel sword I might consider it) and Serricsteel armor would help against the forgelock guns. So the math in the game is attempting to address that.

A long-winded-know-to-much response by someone with too much time... my apologies.

[Whimper]

No need for apologies, gr8sword. That made for interesting reading. My father is a knife-maker and my conversations with him have led to conclusions much the same as the ones you've posted above.

[StJason]

That's actually why folded steel came into being. A nice layer of hard, edge-holding steel sandwiched in between more flexible iron, folded over a few hundred times, you got the best of both worlds.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Or you toss oil onto the guy in full plate and light him on fire.

Fire usually solves most problems.

[themocaw]

That's actually why folded steel came into being. A nice layer of hard, edge-holding steel sandwiched in between more flexible iron, folded over a few hundred times, you got the best of both worlds.

Misconception. Folded steel is usually folded over about ten or twelve times. What you get is a few hundred LAYERS.

No folds = 2 layers
1 fold = 4 layers
2 folds = 8 layers
3 folds = 16 layers
4 folds = 32 layers
5 folds = 64 layers
6 folds = 128 layers

etc. etc. etc.

In addition, folded steel is usually what you used if you had steel of relatively low quality (i.e. Japanese iron ore) and had to compensate: those Japanese swordsmiths HAD to be that good because their steel was both rare and difficult to work with: most Japanese soldiers wore lacquered hide armor because steel was too rare to use in armor. In fact, after the Japanese made contact with the West, many of their richest samurai started wearing European-made steel breastplates because they were better than any armor made in Japan.

Finally. . . layered steel has some real downsides compared to single-piece. It tends to delaminate (layers split apart) and crack if damaged, instead of denting: broken layered steel needs to be carefully and painstakingly re-forged and welded to repair, as opposed to homogenous steel which tends to bend or dent, which you can generally fix up to battlefield standard in a few minutes with a file and a whetstone.

I'm gonna stop, this is becoming a lecture. :P

[gr8sword]

Right on, right on. :Weapon-Master:

[Radio_Fishlips]

mmm interesting reading ... tho i wonder how many of the people providing coments here are either praticing smiths or materials engineers with a speciality in metalurgy ...

oh um im not at all doubting the veracity of your information and while i do make my own swords i will admit that my detailed knowledge on the subject is limited ... i guess im just interested in how people know what they know

[Whimper]

Everything I know about Serricsteel I learned by reading the Iron Kingdoms materials which discuss it.

As far as smithing, my father's a metalurgist who has been crafting knives for about fifteen years or so. My own exposure is limited to the time I spent in Japan visiting museums, libraries, and traditional smithies, plus correspondence with knife-makers in Japan.

[gr8sword]

Not an engineer or a metallurgist here. My interest and practice in martial arts (eastern & western styles) and knowledge comes from a study of weapons in both eastern & western cultures, how they were made and how that had an impact on their use/training and their effect against armor (and the human body). There is an awful lot of credible information available out on these subjects if you know where to look.

[The_Gun_Nut]

All my knowledge I made up on the spot. Even my language skills.

It always amazes me that the language I made up is just like english.

[SteveBob316]

what i always found confusing is that seric steel firearms have a different critical threat range than their regular counterparts without ever getting an explanation why.

There's an explanation in the character guide, I think, albeit a brief one.

Apparently the Serricsteel rifles are so much more accurate that they crit more often, and they lose a crit multiplier because they work too well. The bullet is apt to go clean through the target instead of tearing a big hole and lodging in some poor Winter Guard's chest.

[No One of Consequence]

That's actually why folded steel came into being. A nice layer of hard, edge-holding steel sandwiched in between more flexible iron, folded over a few hundred times, you got the best of both worlds.

I've always been under the impression that the folding process creates a uniform steel - steel is an alloy, in the case of Japanese swords the alloy is classic carbon steel. The repeated folding means that the whole blade of a katana is uniform in its iron/carbon makeup and thus is uniform in strength. Less sophisticated forging techniques would easily create pockets of impure (and less strong) alloy in the blade.

The sprung steel effect of the back of the blade was caused during tempering, when the the edge was heated very hot, while the back of the blade was insulated using clay or a similar substance. The edge hardened, but the back stayed relatively flexible.

At least this is how I understand the process - folding has much less to do with strength than with quality of the alloy (which I suppose affects strength, but much less directly than folks believe).

[The_Gun_Nut]

There's an explanation in the character guide, I think, albeit a brief one.

Apparently the Serricsteel rifles are so much more accurate that they crit more often, and they lose a crit multiplier because they work too well. The bullet is apt to go clean through the target instead of tearing a big hole and lodging in some poor Winter Guard's chest.

That's only possible if the bullet itself is made in an armor piercing style. Soft lead is soft lead, and penetration is only partly due to the rifle (due to acceleration down the barrel). The material the bullet is made out of will determine its final energy distributing characteristics.

@No One of Consequence

It was my understanding that the Japanese swordsmiths placed the hardened part on to a softer iron part, but that is my limited understanding. Someone with more experience with swordmaking could answer that for us.

[StJason]

I've always been under the impression that the folding process creates a uniform steel - steel is an alloy, in the case of Japanese swords the alloy is classic carbon steel. The repeated folding means that the whole blade of a katana is uniform in its iron/carbon makeup and thus is uniform in strength. Less sophisticated forging techniques would easily create pockets of impure (and less strong) alloy in the blade.

I don't believe so. Many of the folded steel blades have a very distinct pattern (To the point where experts can tell which family (sometimes which smith) just by looking at the pattern). I'm not one of the 'experts' here, but I'd think that if the steel was uniform, then you wouldn't see the different layers.
I also thought that the different materials properties was what added strength to the blade. Like a laminate bow, different layers of different materials added strength and flexibility to the blade. Very pure metals (which is why we add carbon to steel) are actually quite brittle.

[No One of Consequence]

I don't believe so. Many of the folded steel blades have a very distinct pattern (To the point where experts can tell which family (sometimes which smith) just by looking at the pattern). I'm not one of the 'experts' here, but I'd think that if the steel was uniform, then you wouldn't see the different layers.
I also thought that the different materials properties was what added strength to the blade. Like a laminate bow, different layers of different materials added strength and flexibility to the blade. Very pure metals (which is why we add carbon to steel) are actually quite brittle.

The uniformity I was suggesting is in the make up of the alloy - ie. the blade doesn't end up 20/80 carbon/iron at the hilt and 5/95 at the tip. As for brittleness, carbon steel is extremely brittle because it's extremely hard (I've been told by a metalworker that it's the hardest metal alloy humanity was able to create in pre-modern times). Iron is much less brittle than steel, but doesn't hold an edge as well for precisely that reason. The harder a metal, typically the more brittle, that's why the best blades are a mixture of tempered steel (hard) and sprung steel (softer and more flexible).

On an unrelated note, it's also my understanding that almost no pure carbon steel is used in the modern era because it corrodes so readily - I have a chinese made meat cleaver from the middle of the 20th century (family heirloom) that's pure carbon steel and the thing corrodes from the air even when dry. It has to be continuously oiled.

@The_Gun_Nut: I have seen a video of a katana made from scratch and that meant (primitive) welding a number of pieces of iron together into a block and then forging the
whole block into a blade (folding and hammering etc). I don't know if there were some methods that did it differently (surely smiths across Japan had their own secret methods) but I'd not seen it done that way.

[Nerdynick]

I didn't take the time to read through all of the thread, but if no one explained it: serricsteel firearms' critical is due to them having much more power behind them (the barrel can handle increased powder charges). While this makes it easier to penetrate any potential protection the target has (making it easier to hit vital targets), it also makes it much more likely to just pass through the target altogether, causing relatively little internal damage, thus the reduced critical multiplier.

[The_Gun_Nut]

That doesn't entirely compute, NN. As I said before, soft lead is still soft lead. And the blasting powder hasn't changed magically (pun intended) when you put it into a rifle made out of different material. (The charges are the same as in any other rifle.) Penetration has as much, if not more, to do with the construction of the bullet as the material the barrel is fabricated out of.

[marijnh]

Although the it doesn't explain the bullet-construction issue, what NN sais is that because the barrel of the rifle is stronger than normal, the bullets can be fired with a larger, more powerful charge of blasting powder - thus giving the bullet more power and velocity. Like I said, this doesn't resolve the issue of bullet material and construction...

[Nerdynick]

*shrug* sorry, like I said, I didn't have the time to read through the entire thread. But that was the best explanation for it I've ever been given.

Although I do like the idea of armor-piercing serricsteel bullets.

[The_Gun_Nut]

As do we all. :)

[KrielMaster]

OK couple of blackpennies tossed on the table-
In IK- there are serric-steel projectiles- the Ogrun battle cannon springs to mind. they are VERY pricey, but do a lot of damage and {IIRC} have a negating effect on some aspect of what they hit {NOT a 'spell' effect!} they ignore hardness or something. One assumes that ANY firearm could use a similar type of round if you could get them {say at Ironhead}, and I'd say you'd have to use a sabot to prevent very rapid barrel wear in non-serric guns.
The color thing- yes, the alloy is "alchemically treated", and can be many hues- I picture it as anodised titanium looking.
You could also treat ANY steel with a similar process, thus intimidating opponents, and/or foisting off 'False Serricsteel' on suckers.
Could someone cite the 'weight' line in the book verbatim, please- I always read it as 1/5 the mass of steel, NOT 20% less mass.
As for the folding process etc. IRL, I'd like to mention at this time that the Romans, Vikings and Anglo-Saxons ALL used variations on this technique long, long before the Japanese, or even the fabled "Damascus Steel"... so credit where it's due and don't believe the hype about them 'inventing' a darn thing... Wootz steel came from India, IPOF.
The best historical example I can think of is the Bamburgh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamburgh_Sword) Sword (http://www.berwick-advertiser.co.uk/news/Bamburgh-sword-only-one-of.1578708.jp). {two links there, the Wiki article is slightly misleading, as it was actually rescued from a dumpster...}
The reason the Bamburgh blade is so significant is it's early date {AD 600} and it's unusual construction {6 bars in place of the more common 4}.