Retrabution > Cygnar?

[lawyerpants]

How can Cygnar beat Ret? They seem to be singing "Anything you can do I can do Better." What are some tips on beating them and how are they different from Cygnar?

[admanb]

This question is way too open-ended. Retribution, like all factions, has far too much variety to sum up their strengths and weaknesses in one post. Are you actually having a problem with Ret, or is this pure theory?

Here's one thing we do better: heavy 'jacks with better than ARM18 and no squishy power field that runs half their abilities.

[Arlaharen]

After reading through their army book I felt kind of cheated as a Cygnar player (that soulless elven hooker seems to have had a grand time in the Long Gunner camp), but then I realized that in order to actually be somewhat competitive Retribution have to squeeze in the power of five books worth of models into a single one.

I can't really see that any Retribution caster is at the same power level as for example eHaley or eCaine even though they have some nasty tricks like the Mage Hunter Strike Force under Ravyn.

[Demeritus]

What is it about Retribution that you seem to be having difficulty with?

They are a powerful faction no doubt but every faction has its weaknesses.

[phreaker187]

There biggest weakness is they are squishy. They have a lot of ranged like we do so it can easily develop into a stalemate.

Any army with Siege can handle them fairly well, ground pounder, explosivo, defender, charger/hunter. His feat ruins them, you can easily ruin a heavy with a charge from one of our heavies, under the feat.

Feat, charge their heavy with a stormclad. Dice plus 10 can one shot a lot of their stuff.

There are options, let us know what you are having problems with. The guys that ignore LOS seem to be a thorn in everyones side, but they can be dealt with too.

[horatius]

I think you are being a touch reactionary with that statement. (Actually Cygnar should be singing that tune.) The Retribution doesn't have access to the amount of pure firepower that Cygnar does. Compare the their riflemen to the long-gunners, in a straight out fire fight the long-gunner's dual shot will shred the riflemen. All of the defensive line in the world won't save the dawnguard from stormblade/guard attacks. Cygnar's 'jacks are also much more efficient and can function ok without focus whereas the Retribution's 'jacks are focus hogs. Also Cygnar has disruption which will ruin any Retribution 'jack. Really Cygnar can handle the Retribution just fine, you will just have to adapt your tactics accordingly.

[NinjaRay]

Most Mk2 games I've played have been me playing Cygnar vs. Ret. The Ret. player is big into Mage Hunters and it's not uncommon for him to field an army with Stealth on all his infantry. I've taken to using Storm Smiths as much as I can, some games they are awesome, others they die quickly, but they always make my opponent's Elfs sweat and changes the Ret's plans because they are threatening to Stealthy Solos and can strike back at MHSFs with UA that shoot though forests and Walls. Other then that, as Cygnar we have access to a Ton of Mercs while the Ret has 4 merc/minion units they have access to. Use Jacks, Gun Mages with UA, and any anti stealth tech and you should be fine.

[lawyerpants]

This question was opened to spark a lot of talk. I just want to hear them compared in a way so I know how to handle them, but really anything semi-relivent to the topic i want to read.

[Killionaire]

Cygnar really does what Retribution does largely, but better.

Long Gunners are better than Houseguard Rifleman in volume of fire, but the riflemen's cost makes them cheaper. Equal. However, Cygnar buffs LGs better than Ret buffs Riflemen.

ATGMs smoke the hell out of Mage Hunters of every variety. But Mage Hunters do things ATGMs can't, but are still restricted to RAT6.

Myrmidons are no match for their pointage in Cygnaran Heavies.

Ret Warcasters don't do as much for their armies as Cygnaran ones. Likewise, their assassination capabilities are not as capable as Cygnar's finer assassins, such as Seige, eCaine and eStryker.

Ret's melee elements are cheaper than Cygnar's for rough parity, but Cygnar's have more protection on the advance in the form of Warcaster and Solo support (IE, Junior and Warcaster-based Deceleration, Deflection, Blur...)

[GunMageinTraining]

It rather ends in a wash. Ret has some very, very strong casters, units, solos and iJacks.

Cygnar has likewise, we can run very similar armies, Dawnguard vs Stormnouns, Riflemen vs LGs, Halberdiers vs... actually, nothing.... Those things are badass. ATGMs vs Mage Hunters.

If you can get the drop on them, you can kill them, if they get the drop, they kill you. It's a very diametric game in these match-ups. All told though, their warcasters are a bit scatterbrained with their spells. Only Rahn seems to be uniformly awesome (to me anyways).

It's still early in their life cycle though, and I don't believe anyone is fully versed with them yet.

[knight_actual]

On the whole, Ret units are better than everyone else's.

Their warcaster,however, don't support the units like cygnar - so in the end its a wash. They don't have spells that aid the army as blatantly as cygnar casters do.

[tneva82]

Feat, charge their heavy with a stormclad. Dice plus 10 can one shot a lot of their stuff.

How you plan to charge them instead of reverse? IIRC they had SPD6 so you need something to be able to charge(and last time I faced their charge my jack got ripped apart). Force them to come to you via shooting? I had shooty list but was ruined by stealth. They could shoot at me with impunity(their shooty unit could snipe my guys off pretty much one shot=1 dead cygnaran...), I can't shoo them back and catching them is pretty tricky since they can move through forrest at will and I can't(and I don't expect to play in barren battlefield. Would suit me but doubtful).

Haven't had chance to play after that against them but I'm dreading them. I'm struggling to figure way to beat them without tooling up specifically at them(if even then) and not lose to others.

My eIrusk list might enjoy them if I can roll small scatters(20" mortars with 4" AOE and boosted damage rolls to everything is pretty nice solution to any stealth buggers). But that's Khador. Doesn't help my cygnars or trollbloods :-( And haven't found that much AOE weapons from cygnars. Trencher cannon just pales in comparison.


The Retribution doesn't have access to the amount of pure firepower that Cygnar does.

they have shooting units immune to long gunners who will toast 10 storm guard/blade way before they reach the shooting line though :-/

Hoping that precursors might help. ARM18=toughest we have against them since they can ignore spells that give boosts to DEF/ARM.

Not trying to be doom&gloom but I'm frankly out of ideas. They scare bejezus out of me.

[Gorbad]

Cygnar really shouldn't be that worried about Stealth.

Gunmages+UA ignores stealth. Lynch of B13 fame ignores stealth too and can put down a 5" template that make everything else ignore it as well.
Kraye and Siege can make models in his battlegroup ignore stealth.
eCaine can make himself ignore stealth.
Stormsmiths ignores stealth too.

We got plenty of tools around that if you need them. And with the possible exception of Kraye all of those are pretty commonly used models for Cygnar. And you can still do trencher AoE spam if you really want to.

[admanb]

How you plan to charge them instead of reverse? IIRC they had SPD6 so you need something to be able to charge(and last time I faced their charge my jack got ripped apart). Force them to come to you via shooting? I had shooty list but was ruined by stealth. They could shoot at me with impunity(their shooty unit could snipe my guys off pretty much one shot=1 dead cygnaran...), I can't shoo them back and catching them is pretty tricky since they can move through forrest at will and I can't(and I don't expect to play in barren battlefield. Would suit me but doubtful).

They're SPD6, but only big-sword-guy has reach, and they don't have many 'jack SPD boosts, whereas we have them on p/eNemo, eHaley, Darius, and Kraye.

Also, they should not be able to rip apart your 'jacks that easy. We have very reliable access to arcane shield and ARM19-20 models, which puts their reach jack at dice-5. They're lucky if they manage ARM20 with buffs.

They may have better units and models, but we have much better buffs and synergy.

[Jice_]

They're SPD6, but only big-sword-guy has reach, and they don't have many 'jack SPD boosts, whereas we have them on p/eNemo, eHaley, Darius, and Kraye.


Thats misinformation unfortunately.

Every Ret caster has a way to make thier jacks faster. Mirage, Locomotion, Mobility/hallowed avenger, Witchhunter, Telekenisis.

The idea behind Ret Jacks and the reason they can't get above arm 20 is that they should always hit first. Always. Otherwise the Ret player is doing it wrong. They have the speed and just as much charge prevention as Cygnar in Rahn, Kaelyssa, and Ravyn.

But in that reguard, they don't hit all that hard without spending alot on them. For these jacks to have any power behind thier hits they need arcanists and lots of focus. Cygnar has all the tools to prevent both of thoes, Disruption and Lightning, they also have a way to deal with thier weak hits after the fact with Arc shield, not to mention it's not all that easy for Ret jacks to hit without focus.

For one point you can hose a 10 point jack. Thats how Cygnar beats Ret.

[tneva82]

Thats misinformation unfortunately.

Every Ret caster has a way to make thier jacks faster. Mirage, Locomotion, Mobility/hallowed avenger, Witchhunter, Telekenisis.

Not to mention atleast one of them has ability to make their 'jacks unchargeable(damned polar field). As it was in my game I could have SPD10" and STILL be unable to charge unless I somehow get 'jack to his back before charge move...

BTW what 1 pointer is so effective?

[Jice_]

Not to mention atleast one of them has ability to make their 'jacks unchargeable(damned polar field). As it was in my game I could have SPD10" and STILL be unable to charge unless I somehow get 'jack to his back before charge move...

BTW what 1 pointer is so effective?

Stormsmiths. Cheapest and most efficient way to disrupt a jack.

[dergliss]

Retribution's units are ok, but for everything they have, we have something similar of equal or better ability. I really am not impressed by any of their iJacks. None of these things are bad, I'm just not impressed or intimidated by any of them.

The Retribution models that impress and intimidate me are their solos, specifically the assassins and the snipers. They are very good and I make sure that I have a way to deal with stealth in every list largely to deal with them. That said, we have some good anti-stealth options in Cygnar, so this isn't a really big problem, they are just targets that I have to remain constantly aware of on the battlefield.

[isawatsuke]

I play both factions. The very first thing that pops at you from retribution is that they have no caster on par with e-haley. The best they have would probably be 1-2 tiers down so your already on an advantage there. The second one is that they have no anti-stealth which you do since your pretty much taking gunmages in every army. 3rd is arcane shield. Aside from vyros which is really one of the lower ranked casters for ret none of them increase armor so inictoors are stuck at 17. 4th is jacks. Again i play both factions and retribution jacks are really more durable and of course none of our jacks hit at pow 25. However thier jacks require 3 focus a turn to run well so you will see very few. I run cygnar has the thunder head which can operate with only 1 focus a turn and the stormclad which works at full capacity even without focus (like fury :)) Last is cav stormlances are a lot better than destors.

For bad stuff you got the solos, yeh they beat cygnar here. I one shotted a cankerworm with a mha also nothing funnier than dismantling a damaged jack on your opponents turn because they missed you and you have riposte + weaponmaster + decap lol. My gmca also fell of his base last time i placed him next to a ghost sniper. Arcanists are also annoying. Second you have stealth. Yer in certain builds everything except jacks have it. Third invcitors ranged 14 melee guys with higher pow than long gunners :confused: actually have a perfect flank buddy in a griffon. Last they have a minion warlock. Cygnar wants a minion warlock too, :(

Ret is not really overpowered because of thier lack of top-tier caster. Maximize your advantages and you will win.

[WisebloodJ]

I'm a new Cygnar player and Retribution is the only faction I've faced (haven't fought Khador yet) that I've consistently had trouble with. Kaelyssa has some really annoying spells and the Mage Hunters are < expletive deleted >

[Dark Fledgling]

As far as preventing the Ret Jacks from getting there charge off, cygnar has a number of ways to do it.

A pair of Centurions with polarity field will both be immune to an actual charge and will have high enough armor to take it regardless. With our ample jack speed boosts we can get around there low speed and with reach they wont be sending there guys past them to get to your more squishy stuff. The thunderhead is also a good jack to use since it can shoot and crit disrupt enemy jacks in addition to being able to energy pulse and ignore stealth and stuff.
Hell even a lancer can smack out a cortex.

Other Ideas to prevent the Ret jack charge is using Siege's rift to slow them down. Or arcing a Voltaic snare at them from nemo. Or you could slam them with pCaine's Thunder Strike. Time bomb with epic Haley or Temporal Barrier and Scramble with pHaley.

Then there is Thunderbolting the jacks back with ATGMs, or disrupting them with any manner of Stormsmiths, Arlan, or almost half of our casters.

The other issue you mentioned was getting by the Ret stealth. Ways have already been mentioned for that, Black 13th, Siege, Gunmages, Thunderhead etc.

So take your self Siege, some Longgunners and the Black 13th, throw in the Thunderhead some Stormsmiths and a few odds and ends and you got what you need to hose the retribution.

Then again, theres no ret players in my area so take this all for what its worth : )

-DF

[tneva82]

So take your self Siege, some Longgunners and the Black 13th, throw in the Thunderhead some Stormsmiths and a few odds and ends and you got what you need to hose the retribution.

This has just the issue of being designed toward Ret. What if I don't want to use Siege? What if I have pCaine or Stryker on the list? Or Nemo?

I hate it if due to one faction you are forced to build certain type of list just for it. Limits options annoyingly.

[Shinobiwolf1980]

This has just the issue of being designed toward Ret. What if I don't want to use Siege? What if I have pCaine or Stryker on the list? Or Nemo?

I hate it if due to one faction you are forced to build certain type of list just for it. Limits options annoyingly.

Yeah, I feel this. I almost never leave without the B13 anyway, at 4 points they're really quite good. But I've been playing against ALOT of retribution and I've been playing different spreads.

If you're worried about stealth I can understand. But I always try to pack a little anti-stealth tech in my forces, since Cryx do the stealth thing as well.
In a game this weekend, I had to shuffle the B13 across the table to deal with Eiryss, two ghost snipers and a Mage Hunter Assassin.
In another game, I actually used my Hunter's Axe to kill ghost snipers.

The big thing about Retribution is that their Jacks have that wonderful powerfield. The main trick is to punch through it as quickly as possible. My Centurion and my Ironclad tied up a Phoenix and another heavy Myrmidon whose name I can't remember. Both Myrmidons went down like smoking hunks of junk.

Sometimes you have to get a little creative against Retribution. But here are my two tips:
1. Get the initiative off the Retribution player.
2. Turn the fight into a stand up brawl.

When you force the Retribution to fight on your terms, they lose everytime. That means tying up that Phoenix with some form of beat stick and hammering it.
It might mean backing away from the fight while luring him into the position you want him to be in.
Look at what he's doing, see if you can make him dance to your tune.
Once you have the initiative, it's very hard for Retribution to get it back. Which is when you turn it into a brawl.
Remember, light Jacks can cover alot of territory very quickly. They usually expect you to load up a Hunter or Charger to shoot, it can be very surprising when that hammer or that axe starts wading through. If you have a Lancer, arc those spells baby.
Neutralise stealth with speed, within 5 inches it means nothing.
They want you to be afraid of their stealth and their abilities. The important thing is not to be afraid, but to engage them with the abilities you have available to you.

[dergliss]

As stated above by a majority of folks here, you really don't need to build against Retribution because they are not all that scary. What you should do is come up with a good all-comers list that has ways to deal with melee, ranged, hard targets, infantry, stealth, charging, etc... Pick pieces that are capable in as many situations as possible. For example, the B13 are good at killing infantry, targets with stealth, and targets with high defense; the stormsiths are also good at these things and also disrupt 'jacks; the stormblades are very good at killing high armor infantry and single hard targets; pCaine has good ranged support spells and is formidable in combat, himself...

Unless you are building a list to play competitively, start with things that you like and/or ways that you like to play, then add in things that compliment that well and try to fill in any "gaps" that you may have in your army to accommodate for weaknesses against certain matchups.

[MajorGilbear]

This has just the issue of being designed toward Ret. What if I don't want to use Siege? What if I have pCaine or Stryker on the list? Or Nemo?

I hate it if due to one faction you are forced to build certain type of list just for it. Limits options annoyingly.Well, I think you'll always have bad matchups against certain casters/factions using certain lists, but pretty much any balanced force ought to more than capable - that has always been Cygnar's 'hidden' strength, and why a number of our units are not as specialised as other factions'.

So if Disruption is what you need, check out the list of Cygnar Casters that have it in either weapon or spell form. Then check out the Thunderhead and Thorn. Then the solos and units. You should find that we can bring Disruption easily to any force.

Anti-stealth a requirement? Check out Stormsmiths, Gunmages of all flavours, casters with AOEs or Chain Lightning, Grenadiers with Snipe or Siege's Explosivo on anything ranged. Plus B13, Siege and Kraye can all reveal stealthed models to others in thier force.

If you need to get the charge in first against the Retribution, again Cygnar has all the tools you need; Temporal Barrier, Scramble, Telekenesis, Temporal Acceleration, Domination, Time Bomb, Polarity Field, Tractor Field, Earthquake, Thunderstrike, Locomotion, Voltaic Snare, Rift, Forcehammer - and that's just on Casters!

I won't list the armour buffs or ranged attack defences or melee attack defences like Set Defence, as I'm sure you can find those easily enough yourself.

No, failing to have any way of harming or hampering an enemy force is fairly rare for a Cygnar army, but like all factions, some list builds are just naurally stronger against certain factions/Casters.

That said, you will find that some models are excellent in very nearly any force (Stormsmiths, Junior, Arlan, B13) and some are almost never worth including against anyone (Trencher Cannon, Sentinel, Swordknights, Finn). On this train of thought, don't forget that Cygnar also has access to a wide selection of some pretty awesome Mercs that we can buff with a number of our more obvious spells (like Snipe, Blur, Arcane Shield, Deadeye, etc).

So, if you are having specific problems with the Retribution, you're better off asking more specific questions I feel.

[capamerica1980]

How you plan to charge them instead of reverse? IIRC they had SPD6 so you need something to be able to charge(and last time I faced their charge my jack got ripped apart). Force them to come to you via shooting? I had shooty list but was ruined by stealth. They could shoot at me with impunity(their shooty unit could snipe my guys off pretty much one shot=1 dead cygnaran...), I can't shoo them back and catching them is pretty tricky since they can move through forrest at will and I can't(and I don't expect to play in barren battlefield. Would suit me but doubtful).

Haven't had chance to play after that against them but I'm dreading them. I'm struggling to figure way to beat them without tooling up specifically at them(if even then) and not lose to others.

My eIrusk list might enjoy them if I can roll small scatters(20" mortars with 4" AOE and boosted damage rolls to everything is pretty nice solution to any stealth buggers). But that's Khador. Doesn't help my cygnars or trollbloods :-( And haven't found that much AOE weapons from cygnars. Trencher cannon just pales in comparison.



they have shooting units immune to long gunners who will toast 10 storm guard/blade way before they reach the shooting line though :-/

Hoping that precursors might help. ARM18=toughest we have against them since they can ignore spells that give boosts to DEF/ARM.

Not trying to be doom&gloom but I'm frankly out of ideas. They scare bejezus out of me.


I have found the Precusors are really nice with that spellward. you get piper in there and you have even more possibliities... does pipers march still give Pathfinder? I have a friend that plays them and they are very deadly but them myrimdons don't like disruption anymore then the jacks that the tech was stole from !!!

[OniBeowulf]

I played against ret for the first time the other day and well I wasn't too impressed. Most of their troops died pretty easily like most single wound troops do. The Black 13th do wonders. Between Lynch throwing his "I see you" template and Ryan throwing down Mage Storm I would have cleared his side pretty quickly. The only reason I lost was because I was literally a hairs width short of my melee range when i gatecrashered with eCaine. I think I rather play against Ret before I play against things like eIrusk or Terminus.

[TKaz84]

>.>
...
<.<

Trencher Cannons and Grenadiers. They may have stealth, but shrapnel doesn't care about that.

[Arkady]

Trencher cannons? Is that a joke?

And cap, I really wish you would stop necro'ing all these old, useless threads.

[isawatsuke]

I play both factions and honestlly yeah in a straight up shooting match ret would probably beat cygnar but they have a very bad matchup when it comes to stealth which we can get around. They also do not have casters on the calibre of ehaley/seige/ecaine.

[TKaz84]

It was kind of a joke. TCCs will never be the first unit I reach for when creating a list, but I keep thinking of cases where they would be effective. Plus I'm trying to make the Master Gunner worth taking, so work with me here.

I don't want to hear it, Killionaire. :D