Let's Talk: The Rhinodon

[Mutton]

Okay, the Rhinodon is one of my favorite sculpts in the game, and I've always loved the beastie. Now, with Mk2 removing his Horn attack but letting you use the Tail on the charge, he plays a bit differently. Mostly this is due to the change in his animus I feel; in mk1 you could get a whole lot of attacks AND a thresher, but not it's an either or; three attacks isn't even that special nowadays.

But enough about what he had; let's talk about him now.

At SPD5 he's right between the Titans and the Cyclops; reach gives him a nice 10" threat before factoring in Enrage. He hits at PS15 with his tail, giving him decent damage that Enrage ups to a beast killing 17. His claws are decent, but you won't use them that often and at PS14 you won't buy attacks with them. The main issue here is MAT5; he just can't hit anything well. I have trouble justifying him outside of pMakeda and maybe Mordi or eMorgs; having to boost just to hit average troop defense on his thresher is just bad. His animus isn't that good either; overtake is nice if you have a free attack mechanism, but at MAT5 you're boosting to hit, not buying attacks. Defensively, he's got a decent 27 boxes and ARM18/20, but his DEF11 is just pitiful.

Overall, I don't feel that he's worth his 8pts. In general, the melee heavy warbeasts of Skorne outside of Karn are just lacking, but I think the Rhino is fairly easily fixable. My first suggestion would be to raise his him to MAT6; it would let him hit infantry far easier and not force him to boost every attack. The second is to get rid of the fluffy but meh ability of Back Plates for a straight up ARM increase. I just want him to be good. Please, discuss your experiences with him and what you want done to fix him or if you think he's right where he is.

[Yertle4]

This only happened because you got pwned by Sticks.

Rhinodon should stay at MAT 5. He's as dumb as a brick. He flails around and tries to kill crap and cause mass death. Gladiator should be MAT 6 - he's a trained beatstick with at least some Mind boxes.

The only thing I miss on the Rhinodon is the horn, and the crit ARM piercing on the horn. It allowed him to deal with big targets pretty well. Now he really lacks the single-target punch that the melee Titans offer - he's more of a carnage kit. That's alright - everything should have its plates. He got 3 extra boxes so he can take a bit more of a hit, which is big in my experience.

He is missing something though, because he just doesn't seem to click. Personally I feel it's the horn charge, but I could be wrong. It took me a long time to get him to work in Mk I, and when he did it was as a swiss-army knife. Not so much now.

[Mutton]

Stupid Sticks and his stupid .5% chance of pulling off that combo smite...

As I said, I'm looking for ideas on fixing him; as you said, he doesn't click right now.

[Scalpel]

The main problem is Molik Kharn trumps all our other heavies atm.

This could be Molik is too underpointed, or that everything else is over pointed.

Assuming MK goes to 12pts ... then this guy isnt' that bad.

The MAT 5 is because of the 360deg Threasher Attack, and I don't see them giving MAT 6. If you need 8-9 to hit most Warrior models and you have 3 in melee ranged, then you can boost all 3. If you have 9 in melee range, then that's still 3 without boosting you'll hit. Then can still buy more attacks.

In Mk1 his low MAT was off-set buy the fact he could do 2x Circular Strikes ... so if you needed 9's you had in effect a re-roll with the animus.

Personally the main problem is that for the same points you can get a Gladiator ... which has +1 STR. However compare the threat ranges and this boy has 2.5" more! Which means if you boost his MAT to 6 then you have a bettter Alpha Strike against non-single wound stuff, that can hit at P+S 17 - even if the Titan went to MAT 6 as well.

If they want to make our 2 Titans the melee killers, MK the super beast, and this guy as our infantry killing heavy, then he needs re-working from the ground up - so he fills that role.


What I do think needs to be done 100% is to give him a decent animus!

[Junn Khan]

I found that he did a great job at taking apart lights but once again, other beats did it better. If his cost was reduced by 1 he'd be perfect for that role. His MAT is good enough to hit a lot of lights and the POW on his fists and tail plus mulitple attacks means he isn't sinking too much into killing them. Plus he has the range with paingivers to pull it off well.

[Swordchucks]

I'd like to have a work around built into his rules that would allow him to specialize more without unbalancing him in other regards. With his tail rules he is best suited for clearing out infantry, but as has been stated, he lacks the MAT to do this very well. I propose adding another rule to the tail.

Clean Sweep - This model gains +2 on Thresher attacks with this weapon.

This would let him fulfill his role in most armies much better, without greatly increasing his capabilities across the board. He still needs to work for it against harder targets, which is how it should be. We have other heavies for that.

As for the Back Plates, I actually like them. I love fluffy rules. They help get me into the spirit of the game. And truthfully his base ARM is perfectly reasonable as is.

The only area that I feel he really suffers is the Animus. It is fairly weak, at least for our faction. It should probably be changed. Maybe drop the unengaged restriction and let them choose to either move or make an additional melee attack. That sounds more in line with what I think of when I hear the word Amuck.

[Dolomyte]

I absolutely hate him losing the horn attack. It makes him a -don instead of a rhinodon. It has nothing to do with gameplay and balance for me, but I thought the rhino was the coolest model and the reason I started skorne, I really enjoyed paingivers riling one of these things up, having it charge and gore whatever it landed into.

Give it back the horns with critical AP, give it a +2 to trample attack rolls, make it 10 points. and Skorne has a second viable heavy to MK.

[TheOrange]

I too like the backplates, you get to choose higher armor at the cost of becoming easier to hit.

Losing horn sucks but now we can charge in with the tail, that's better IMO. I wouldn't mind seeing the horn returned in a different version, maybe a boost to certain power attacks, but then the Titans sort of have a monopoly on that. Maybe a chain attack with the fists instead? That would be kind of cool. It would actually increase his versatility too. You can opt to charge in with the thresher against multiple targets, or opt for the chain attack against a single target. Give him that and a worthwhile animus and I don't think I'd mind him going to 9pts.

But to get back to his current state, I think he cost so much mainly because he has a 360 thresher (is it that great though). I see him being best used as a trap. Send him out there, turn him around and let your opponent surround him. Then you bust out the thresher boosting where needed (having a savage around would be critical here). Still I don't know if he's worth that. MAT5 isn't great but he has an okay chance of hitting most infantry, I'd like to think he was designed to go after shield wall infantry but I just don't see the damage potential there. If he charges, paingivers help see he wrecks stuff, but the 360 arc doesn't help and he probably won't actually hit that many models. If he tires to do the trap thing, then it's probable that you can't get a paingiver in for the boost. And I still don't see much value in his animus. I wouldn't waste 2 fury on my warbeast or my warlock for the potential of an extra 1" movement "if" the warbeast killed something "and" if he's not engaging anything.

[Cronix]

The Rhinodon was in MKI the special attack specialist, I ‘m going to do something crazy, making it more fluffier. Adds/changes are :
- Gave Back Plates a new meaning, increase the ARM to 20, comes with the fluff;
- Lowered the THR by 1;
- Increase the POW of some weapons;
- Better wording for its animus;
- Added horn attack.

I hope you guys like him this way.

Rhinodon
SPD 5 STR 11 MAT 5 RAT 3 DEF 11 ARM 20 CMD 6 FUR 4 THR 8

FA: U
Point Cost: 8
Base Size: Large
Damage: 27 (Mind 7, Body 11, Spirit 9)

Animus - Rhinodon
Amuck Cost:3 RNG:6 AOE:– POW:- UP:- OFF:-
When target friendly Skorne model makes a normal melee attack during its activation, it makes one melee attack against each model in its LOS and melee range. If there are no enemy models in this model’s melee range after resolving a normal melee attack in which it destroyed one or more, it can advance up to 1˝. Amuck lasts for one turn.

Rhinodon
Back Plates - This model cannot be affected by Beast Manipulation.

Weapons – Rhinodon
Claw [2x] (Left and Right) POW: 3 P+S: 14

Horn [1x] POW: 2 P+S: 13
Gore – The Horn can only be used when making charge attacks
Armor Piercing - When calculating damage from this attack, halve the base ARM stats of models hit that have medium or larger bases. This attack gains +2 to damage rolls against models with small bases.

Tail [1x] POW: 5 P+S: 16
Reach
Rear Attack - When declaring and resolving attacks with this weapon, this modelʼs front arc extends to 360°.

Thresher (* Attack) - This model makes one melee attack with this weapon against each model in its LOS and this weaponʼs melee range.


Edit: removed master tormentor nonesense :P.

[TheOrange]

i want to change the master Tormentor into beast support solo,

No, just wont happen. Bloodrunners are assassins, that's the fluff, end of story. That doesn't mean there aren't/won't be Beast Handler solos. ;)

[Calisto]

I don't like that vesion of amuck either really. I think it really just needs to change the warbeast restiction to model, then solos and warlocks will habve a use for it too, but maybe have it cost 3?

[Cronix]

just needs to change the warbeast restiction to model, then solos and warlocks will habve a use for it too, but maybe have it cost 3?

Good idea :)

[tensteam]

Why couldn't he keep the old animus? 2 thresher attacks kill infantry even with MAT5 and that would be cool. In addition I'll miss the horn attack too.

[Captain Badtouch]

The animus right now in my opinion is horrible , he is actually the worst model to have it on as he has 360 deg reach which means he's hard presses to finish out of melee after attacking in comparison to any model............

[Creaux]

That animus makes ancestral guardians an attractive option.

The back plates rule makes him feel much more like something to which the Skorne shrug and push at the enemy, and goes well with the bit in the fluff of him responding poorly to pain.

That's definitely a beast I'd try.

Oh, and Badtouch; the tail's ability to whack at models behind it does not let it engage models to its rear. You only have the 360 degrees when you are making an attack, so the rhinodon actually gets more use/flexibility out of Amuck.

[tensteam]

That animus makes ancestral guardians an attractive option.
The animus only works on warbeasts.

[Scalpel]

OK, I've been thinking ... as I normally do :)

Firstly Animus :-

Cost 3 ... RNG : 6"


During its activation, the tarrget model of this animus, gains an additional die on melee attack rolls against enemy non-warlock warrior models.


In addition His STR is taken down to 10 (i.e. -1) The POW on the Fists are reduced to 2 ( Now P+S 12 ) - Tail is now P+S 13 with 2D6 should kill 1 wound ARM 19 or less models.


OK this makes him a focused infantry killer, but probably sill too good for 7pts and not good enough for 8 pts.


So in addition +1 DEF and +1 MAT


-----------


The Goal or Aim for the changes is to make him less attractive as a beatdown monster (which we have Titans and MK for), but as an infantry killer which what he was in MK2 with double Circ-Strikes.


Would need a lot of testing ofc.


Thoughts ?

[DarkWonderer]

There's a lot of great ideas coming out here.

I realy like the Clean Sweap idea, however with all the simplifications coming around it's unlikely. MAT 6 sounds reasonably and hardly over the top. PP just gave Carnivean MAT 6 for some reason (no idea why legion players needed it that bad) and here we have a request based on same solid theory (amuck no longer giving "re-rolls").

As for Amuck, I think it would work much better if it simply granted Overtake (I don't even dream about Step Aside... :) ) and allowed it to be casted on other stuff (not just warbeasts). Morghoul or Xerxis could shure use it. Especialy the first one.

Current version of Amuck fails because 1" of movement can be not enough if you're allowed to move only after you clear meele range and because our beasts have poor MAT. Maybe it should also grant a buff to meele attack rolls ? Nobody is complaining about other (Circle) animi granting that kind of bonuses.

I'm all for he's horn attack coming back. With Titans getting an extra tusk attack 3 attack (at lower power) are nothing to cry about. AP only on a charge and only on a critical is hardly broken, but was very cool as long as it lasted. Not to mention it gave Rhino some anti-armor power. I'm not to high on our chances to get it back, but iI'm shure hoping we do.

His "fancy shield" is fine with me. I don't see much use for it, but if it doesn't increase the cost I'm fine with it. Not that I wouldn't like Rhino to simply be ARM 19 base :) . I'm shure hoping that PP brings cool back to this awesome mini.

[Creaux]

The animus only works on warbeasts.

I meant the proposed animus that Scalpel put up :)

[Mutton]

Honestly, I'm against the Horn coming back somewhat; I WANT to thresher with him; while it's a good choice against single hard targets, if we were to give him something, I'd like +1MAT or some other way to let him hit.

[SaltyBob]

Personally I think he is mostly fine. POW 15 Thresher @ 360 degrees on the charge, POW 17 with 12" Threat Range with Paingivers.

What more does a model really have to do? He provides us with a Reach heavy that also has 2 open hands.

The only thing that I have been unimpressed with is his animus. I think it should just change to move 1 inch when it kills something. Instead of having the melee restriction on it.

[TheOrange]

You only have the 360 degrees when you are making an attack, so the rhinodon actually gets more use/flexibility out of Amuck.

Hum, your right. Wow that makes all the difference. Okay I think I checked out everything on this and I think it works.

1st the rhinodon declares a charge with the tail, so now has a 360 front arc. He can now charge backwards :eek:. Either he, the warlock or a shaman casts amuck. He can make his thresher attack and once that's done his front arc returns to 180, he'll have nothing nothing in his front arc and so can now advance 1" in any direction (preferentially in the hole he just made) and buy more attacks. Done just right I believe he can poke a hole in a shield walled unit to get to something behind it (because he still has reach) OR poke a hole and move out of the way for something else to get through :eek:. (Note if he remains backwards and kills a model with each bought tail attack he can more another 1").

Seriously, someone tell me if this is right?

[Mutton]

I don't think he can charge backwards; it's 360 for attacks, not declaring charges.

[TheOrange]

I don't think he can charge backwards; it's 360 for attacks, not declaring charges.

Not sure if there's a difference there, it's 360 for declaring and resolving attacks, but even then he can declare a charge while facing something.

"After declaring a charge, the charging model turns to face any direction that will bring it to within melee range of it's target, ignoring terrain, the distance to the charge target, and other models."

also

"At the end of the charge movement, the charging model turns to face it's target directly."

360 models count every direction as directly facing so I think you might be able to turn at that point too, maybe...

If it doesn't work, well there's always pMakeda and Savagry ;).

[Rynth]

1st the rhinodon declares a charge with the tail, so now has a 360 front arc. He can now charge backwards :eek:. Either he, the warlock or a shaman casts amuck. He can make his thresher attack and once that's done his front arc returns to 180, he'll have nothing nothing in his front arc and so can now advance 1" in any direction (preferentially in the hole he just made) and buy more attacks.


Whether or not the charge backwards thing works Thresher is a *Attack, not a normal melee attack so it doesn't trigger Amuck

[TheOrange]

(face palm) yea that's right. So no help from thresher, but you can always buy normal attacks.

[Deathraven]

The only thing that I have been unimpressed with is his animus. I think it should just change to move 1 inch when it kills something. Instead of having the melee restriction on it.

This. It also shouldn't be restricted to warbeasts only, it should work on any friendly model.

[Yertle4]

This. It also shouldn't be restricted to warbeasts only, it should work on any friendly model.

I'm thinking they did it because of eMakeda.

[SaltyBob]

I don't think he can charge backwards; it's 360 for attacks, not declaring charges.
He cannot charge backwards, I already asked in the rules forum when he came out.

If the Animus worked on friendly models, then it could be pretty sick with our Warlocks + AG.

[Mutton]

Still, with MAT5 I just can't justify him with anyone but pMakeda. Even then, he's the second heavy due to Karn.

[Deathraven]

So I'm assuming all this talk of him staying at mat 5 means we all think that the troll axer is broken right? Seen as he's mat 6 and has thresher + reach at the same p+s as the rhinodon for 2pts less with an animus thats one of the best in the game right now and the same arm.

[TheOrange]

He cannot charge backwards, I already asked in the rules forum when he came out.

Well they ruled on the LOS stipulation, but I wonder if we can get around that with the change of facing stipulation after the charging model moves.

Thread for anyone interested in seeing:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=954

[bashamer]

facing is not declaring or resolving an attack, so no you still face as normal.

I like him and I hope he stays the same. he is good v.s. lights and infantry, and bad v.s. heavy armor (orher than 2 open fists) but he is only 8 points. I think he is costed well in pain ole hordes, and costed well in mixed (WM & Hordes). There are not many beasts that I'd say that for.