Paingivers & Warbeast

[Cronix]

Something i found in the Bronzeback topic.


is proof in my mind that our beasts are paying paingiver tax.

And i fully agree with Deathraven, maybe they must increase the cost of the paingivers and change a couple things.

Make warbeast better witout relying on them. Anyway lets discuss this.

[Moonblade]

The same fate suffered by Menites. Their warjacks pay for Choir tax.

Actually although editing Paingivers would solve broad problems, I don't think I want it. For me our high Beast price tags made it seem like our warbeasts are just average, but the Paingivers are key to their power. If we make our warbeasts good, then few would take the Paingiver. They're optional, yes, but the more beasts you take the closer Paingivers go towards auto-include.

Fluffwise the Skorne always takes their Paingivers. Paingivers are the unique and fluffy unit used by the Skorne to manipulate their beasts and push them to their limits. So do Menites with their Choir. Now tell me, with the current rules, how many among us don't do it like the fluff?

[Deathraven]

As things stand we either take beasts as little more than fury batteries or we take paingivers to mitigate their shortcomings when compared to other factions. If our beasts were as good a value for points as the likes of the Troll axer or the feral warpwolf I'd gladly accept paingivers costing twice as much as they do now.
There are three major areas that our beast are lacking;
1 The speed of our heavies. Titans and to a lesser extent the rhinodon have poor threat ranges without paingivers for thier points. Some have argued that khador can cope with spd 4 so we should too, so if that is the case then either give us arm 20 and 34 damage boxes or accept that comparing jacks to beasts is impractical.
2 The quality of our animi. We have ver poor animi compared to all other factions even on our so called support beasts. I would love to have someting that compares to slip stream, rush, bounding etc, but in reality the only really decent animi we have are mostly highly situational, and many got worse with the field test rather than better.
3 Lack of damage output. Without paingivers even our 10pt spd 4 alpha can't top p+s 16. That is incredibly poor, especially if you're facing warmachine.

Big thanks to Cronix for starting this thread, it's helping me turn my doom mode into positive energy to push for change. :)

[Swordchucks]

Anytime I take 3 or more beasts I always find a way fit them in. And more often then not when I only take two. The same goes for the choir (and the Vassal to) when I play POM.

I do wish our beasts could be more stand alone, but I also understand the need to factor in what's available to a faction when creating new models. I just hope the right balance can be struck before everything becomes official.

[Razhem]

I play protectorate and I don't feel my jacks are expensive without the choir. When I see the skorne heavies (I insist, the lights, except for a couple of tweeks on the krea and shaman, seem perfect to me), they all seem expensive except for Karn, who when comparing to the Avatar seems correctly priced.

[Pickles]

I play protectorate and I don't feel my jacks are expensive without the choir. When I see the skorne heavies (I insist, the lights, except for a couple of tweeks on the krea and shaman, seem perfect to me), they all seem expensive except for Karn, who when comparing to the Avatar seems correctly priced.

I think the choir tax is a historical MK1 thing & has been sorted out now - MK2 made the prices more appropriate.

[Dolomyte]

Like I said in my long thread yesterday, I think the paingivers are fine ability wise, but I DO think they need to either go back to base to base, which was not really that huge of a restriction, or switch to being a point more expensive. they are REALLY good for their cost.

Question: Whats a better two point solo then MT and MHA. Answer : 4 paingivers.

[TheOrange]

To me, if you bring back the b2b requirement it makes using condition much harder. With the current extension my paingivers can enrage a warbeast in 1 turn and in most cases catch up with them to condition next turn. When they have to waste a turn getting to the warbeast then I opt for medicate instead. I won't deny that they are incredibly good for the price though, there a well designed unit and I'd hate to see them lose any of their abilities.

[Razhem]

Like I said in my long thread yesterday, I think the paingivers are fine ability wise, but I DO think they need to either go back to base to base, which was not really that huge of a restriction, or switch to being a point more expensive. they are REALLY good for their cost.

Question: Whats a better two point solo then MT and MHA. Answer : 4 paingivers.
Like someone already said in another thread. Could we stop shotgunning ourselves to the foot? the other factions will take care of our over the top stuff, most of the feedback related to our underpowered will come from us.

[Pickles]

Like someone already said in another thread. Could we stop shotgunning ourselves to the foot? the other factions will take care of our over the top stuff, most of the feedback related to our underpowered will come from us.

At the risk of more ire from Razhem some of the legion players are saying they think the Shepard is undercosted at 1 point - & it's basically a (marginally tougher) paingiver with beasthandler instead of enrage.

I think that they, & the Tyrant commander are going to stay as "pivotal" pieces in MK2.

[Razhem]

At the risk of more ire from Razhem some of the legion players are saying they think the Shepard is undercosted at 1 point - & it's basically a (marginally tougher) paingiver with beasthandler instead of enrage.

I think that they, & the Tyrant commander are going to stay as "pivotal" pieces in MK2.
Hey, my shotgun dilettante is directed at Skorne, legion can go crazy with it for all I care :D

Anyway, I come from the protectorate, after MKII, our choices are solid by themselves, but the support makes them amazing. At a cost of course, but I just don't see anything wrong with having such power tied to support models. Our beast handlers and tyrant are to the protectorate´s choir/vassal and Ruphert. If I'm going to blow at least 5 points in every list for models that only do stuff for other models (although the Tyrant can beat some face quite handily), it better be pretty awesome.

[Moonblade]

Seconded, Razhem. I too come from the Protectorate, and I view Skorne's Paingivers as how the Choir is. Although I do think the Protectorate still pays the Choir tax, it's not as high as Paingiver tax. Albeit, I also think the Paingiver is better than the Choir (SPD, STR, and fury-less charge in one action!).

Cross-faction aside, rather than editing our Paingivers I'd suggest we take our warbeasts up a notch. The Gladiator, Bronzeback, and Krea especially. I don't have any problems with the Cyclopses, the Cannoneer is still a bargain, and Molik Karn is awesome.

[furbs178]

Honestly all of our lights cost the same as everyone elses lights (4-5 pts) and are great (other than the noted problems with the basilisks but those need revision anyway). I think our Heavies (other than Molik) could maybe be 1 point less, but really they should just be improved. Rhinodon is fine for his point cost (compare him to other 8 pt models). The gladiator and bronzeback could be priced better if not improved but we all already know that. The canonneer I'm unsure about because of lack of testing but I think 9 is appropriate.

If anything our titans need improving everything else is fairly priced with no paingiver tax. I play menoth to and only use choir on occasion and find them fairly priced as well. Paingivers are great for their cost, I was actually surprised that they were 3 pts for a full unit but considering they are the main source of beast control for us I think I'd rather them be affordable and as optional as they are. I run cyclops lists, and paingivers are integral, it also seems that the costs are designed very well for you to get maximum points. (I've never had 1 extra point to do nothing with).

It's the ability of a few beasts that need improving, not the paingivers that need tweaking. Our beasts (other than maybe the krea) are only slightly underpowered for their cost.

Sorry for rambling