Updates perfect, what else needs loving?

[bakaryu]

All our models that got updates I think are now picture perfect, none of them scream overpowered and none of them seem underpowered anymore either, except perhaps Mulg and his animus/AYGTET shenanigans. So then, what else feels like it needs some tuning?

In my mind the remaining hit list reads:

Fennblades - Just feel like they are missing something, anti cavalry is too corner case a rule now considering the all round lack of cavalry on the board.

Scattergunners - Compared to cleansers they just feel a little bland, need one little something to make them great.

Hero - Very fragile for a 3 point solo, DEF12 ARM16 does not a hero make. Increase up to ARM18 and swap cleave to give him back backswing and we have a winner.

[mikasa]

All our models that got updates I think are now picture perfect, none of them scream overpowered and none of them seem underpowered anymore either, except perhaps Mulg and his animus/AYGTET shenanigans. So then, what else feels like it needs some tuning?

In my mind the remaining hit list reads:

Fennblades - Just feel like they are missing something, anti cavalry is too corner case a rule now considering the all round lack of cavalry on the board.

Scattergunners - Compared to cleansers they just feel a little bland, need one little something to make them great.

Hero - Very fragile for a 3 point solo, DEF12 ARM16 does not a hero make. Increase up to ARM18 and swap cleave to give him back backswing and we have a winner.

He will never have backswing back. They took the option of 2 attacks without special conditions off of pretty much every solo in the game - as they shouldn't be able to level jacks and casters.

The armour is fine he'll have 18 most of the time, and won't be infront of your champions. Maybe defensive line with champions would help him.

You have to remember that the Hero is just a Champion with leadership abilites. For 3 points he is totally worth it to me.

for 1 point you get :

+1 mat
- 1 attack
+ cleave
+ reach
+ retallatory strike
+Tactician
+1 pow

You also get a leadership 10 commander!

And the guy is a weapon master. That's pretty huge.

[bakaryu]

He will never have backswing back. They took the option of 2 attacks without special conditions off of pretty much every solo in the game - as they shouldn't be able to level jacks and casters.

The armour is fine he'll have 18 most of the time, and won't be infront of your champions. Maybe defensive line with champions would help him.

You have to remember that the Hero is just a Champion with leadership abilites. For 3 points he is totally worth it to me.

for 1 point you get :

+1 mat
- 1 attack
+ cleave
+ reach
+ retallatory strike
+Tactician
+1 pow

You also get a leadership 10 commander!

And the guy is a weapon master. That's pretty huge.

Well through one way or another he needs to get back up to the same baseline ARM as normal champions, either make him base ARM18 or give him defensive line with champions.

[The Anders]

I want to see line breaker come back and more hits one the long riders.

[ColdYinTiger]

Mulg needs a heavy target animus rather then just a beast one. His weapon being magical is a nice touch though.

Scattergunners need......something.

The fens had a useful niche before, as everyone was taking Cavalry, but now since people now have shelved them, they need a more offensive slant to most things. They are still situationally good with some casters but still.

The Hero seems like he got nerfed and buffed all at once, The buff they give the champs needs to be something else, even when I was running two units of champs I never had them clogging each other up.

The Keg Carrier. Stumbling drunk is ok but there needs to be a side effect for killing it and a reason for killing, otherwise its a bland sort of attachment. Give him 6 fury and Terror for the one effect with Borka and call it liqour fueled again.

Borka does not need an attack spell. It is fairly useless with him. I have cast it as much as I can, but it forces him to waste too much fury for it to be effective. Just give him a unit only or beast only spell since he seems to be a balance caster rather then a troop one now.

I'm still out on if all elemental trolls need 5 or not for their RAT. They are primarily ranged beasts who double up on two hand throw duty in my experience.

Other the that I think we are in good condition for most other things, maybe a point of armor on the buffalo though that could be too much to ask.

Krielstone needs pulse, not aura. Otherwise faster armies like Borka, Grim, and EDoomie will leave it far behind.

Honestly though I think the Kriel has caused some survival problems as it leaves the assumption that we will always have it. They boosted its versatility but its still lagging behind. I don't think giving a troop boost to armor of 1 will be overpowered across the board and do a nice amount to making us actually be the "You hit us, then we hit you back harder" army we seem to be intended as rather then the. "You hit us and I pray that I make my tough roll."

The buff to the elemental troll animus is great, yes its only one model each, but the potential of botching nearly any faction of an assassination attempt (Still waiting for our lightning troll) is a great boon.

[i_like_tool]

FennBlades still need something to seperate them from Kriel Warriors

Scattergunners need to turn down the suck(hardie har har)

The Keg Carrier needs changed I feel. Stumbling drunk is useless in my opinion

Borka needs to loose Cooler and get a 2 fury attack spell

Would LOVE if the Slag Troll got his boosted damage on his melee attacks too

Krielstone Pulse is needed

Ummmmm....still wouldn't mind a cheap heavy somewhere :P 8pt dire....cmon

[Gorbad]

All our models that got updates I think are now picture perfect, none of them scream overpowered and none of them seem underpowered anymore either, except perhaps Mulg and his animus/AYGTET shenanigans. So then, what else feels like it needs some tuning?


I don't think the Slag Troll is there yet either. I just don't see him as a 6 point beast, he can do a lot of damage if the stars align just right, but he is very situational.

[Loki77515]

I think the Hero would do well if he gained Righteous Fury. It would help his ARM and damage out put and Lord knows he would get quite a lot of use out of it.

[CodeRed97]

My Suggestion for Fennblades:

Lose Hard.
Lose Snag and Slash.
Gains Set Defense.
Gains Brutal Charge.

Basically gives them two modes, offense and defense. They become decent at taking the charge first as the opponent might miss. As well, on the charge, they go up to POW 14's and are much more dangerous. We really want them to be distinguishable from Kriel Warriors as a tarpit unit is not what we need from Fennblades.

[Verjigorm]

He will never have backswing back. They took the option of 2 attacks without special conditions off of pretty much every solo in the game - as they shouldn't be able to level jacks and casters.



Yeah, there's a terribly small number of solos with multiple attack options: Yuri, Tartarus, Stannis Brocker, Lord of the Feast, Gerlak, Warchief, Hawk, Bokur, Finn, bradigan, etc.

Look how many of those are also "buff some kind of related unit" as well, so they fit the Champion's mould.

[General Nemo]

I am happy with Cleave. Clearing infantry is his main purpose for me, so I won't be missing it.

[Verjigorm]

I am happy with Cleave. Clearing infantry is his main purpose for me, so I won't be missing it.

I'm also pleased with the Hero, tell ya the truth. I wouldn't mind Cleave AND backswing, but I'm happy with him as-is. I love Tactician.

[Scalpel]

eDoomshapers Feat .... it still feels like a poor mans Borka Feat.

+1" for Beasts only, and have to Charge/Slam/Trample to get it.

[lich lord burns]

He will never have backswing back. They took the option of 2 attacks without special conditions off of pretty much every solo in the game - as they shouldn't be able to level jacks and casters.
.
Exemplar Senechal. Better than a Hero in damn near every way (currently).



I am happy with Cleave. Clearing infantry is his main purpose for me, so I won't be missing it.
I respectfully posit that you are not in the majority in that use. Nor would Backswing be a detriment to you. I wants it back.

Also, if you want to see a 3 point solo that excels at killing infantry, reference the Tharn White Mane. Again, the Hero pales in comparison.

[rydiafan]

The armour is fine he'll have 18 most of the time,

Only if I bring the stone, and I'm sick of doing that.

[StarmanTTLB]

Exemplar Senechal. Better than a Hero in damn near every way (currently).The Seneschal has always been one of the best killy solos in the game, since it first came out in Escalation. The FT/MkII didn't change how he works much either. I've long lamented the Seneschal, even though I also play Khador and have access to neat little killers like Manhunters.


Also, if you want to see a 3 point solo that excels at killing infantry, reference the Tharn White Mane. Again, the Hero pales in comparison.Now, this I can get behind. The Whitemane is TOO killy, especially against medium bases as he gets that 1" overtake and can buy new attacks. Against low DEF models clustered in closer due to medium bases (like, oh, Trollkin infantry :rolleyes:), he can take out a whole unit on one go if he rolls averagely.

I see the Hero as more than just a killer, though. With CMD 10 & Commander he's a hardpoint in our front lines. And he does neat things to Champions. They may not have NEEDED the buff, but they do benefit from it.

What I'd like to see is A) the Hero gaining Defensive Line with Champions, and B) switching Cleave for Backswing. A is more important to me than B, however, although it lessens the chances of his Retaliatory Strike happening.

[theummhmmguy]

I have been having quite of bit of success running two min units of Champs and one Hero. Though I miss the Hero of old with two attacks... as he is now is fine. The ability he brings the Champs has been fantastic for me in playtesting.

[bakaryu]

I have been having quite of bit of success running two min units of Champs and one Hero. Though I miss the Hero of old with two attacks... as he is now is fine. The ability he brings the Champs has been fantastic for me in playtesting.

I have looked at the possibility of running two 3man champ units, but as I only own the one unit I baulk at the necessity to purchase a second unit just for another leader model.

The advantage of a 3man champ unit would be the ability to make a whole unit elementally immune to any damage type except electricity in the current game (once they change the animi to last for one round).

[theummhmmguy]

I have looked at the possibility of running two 3man champ units, but as I only own the one unit I baulk at the necessity to purchase a second unit just for another leader model.

The advantage of a 3man champ unit would be the ability to make a whole unit elementally immune to any damage type except electricity in the current game (once they change the animi to last for one round).

Right now my second min unit of Champs unit leader is one of my Runeshapers or the kilt lifter.

[bakaryu]

Right now my second min unit of Champs unit leader is one of my Runeshapers or the kilt lifter.

I was thinking of the Kilt Lifter, I may try a Grissel champ assault list, add in Pyre and Winter and a screening unit of KWs, then fill up on some heavy beastage.

[unclebiggins]

Hero. Seriously the stars need to align for him to do particularly well. He charged a flank of an enemy unit of KEE and managed to kill a single model thanks to bond of life before he was charged and killed by another KEE with ignite on him.

On another game he died to a pair of combined blunderbuss attacks that knocked him down before he got killed by another blunderbuss off centre.

The HERO is terrible! I have played with the min champs and the Hero in a list and found that one hero charged a Cetrati under the KSB str aura and managed to kill his Cetrati over two attacks while the hero failed. As he was the weaker model in the lineup the Cetrati shield walled, took defenders ward and smacked him down a pair of melee attacks from the unit.

Maybe I am using him wrong. Maybe he should just stand back and give out his Tactician benifit and give CMD 10 to my units. Maybe he should hold back until the final turns when everything else is dead and nothing is left to threaten him. The problem is that we have enough 2nd and 3rd wave units and models to our lists. I need a lynchpin for my armies. A tough model

At the moment I am instead using D&B for one more point. Two games so far but they show promise.

[Mutton]

Whoa; KEE are there for tarpitting by hosing abilities that rely on kills to activate. It's why you take them, so that's a bad comparison. I do think he needs some help though.

[lastspartacus]

KEE are also almost great covenant fire targets for those great accurate flaming macical shots, they are fairly competant at range and melee, as well as tarpitting.

I find the hero needs defensive line with heros perhaps, because he is a much worse value for his points compared to the champions themselves.

The fennblades, however, I love. Very cheap for a tough and reasonably hard hitting unit with reach, I love em base and the cav hampering is just gravy for those rare occasions someone actually takes cav in MK2.

KSB does need to be an aura, and Im not primarily a trolls player. Yet, somehow I feel that might overpower it, Id need to playtest it. Thats why I strongly feel these fieldtests need two phases rather than one.

[Sobek]

What I'd like to see is A) the Hero gaining Defensive Line with Champions

This would do it for me.

[azaminkor]

They could give the Hero Unyielding and perhaps Steady (or some version where he gets Steady while engaged); Battle Hardened. The Hero is underwhelming for his cost as is (and the awesomeness of the model).

[CerberusPuppy]

Any chance of the Fell Caller's War Cry affecting ranged attacks again?

Why did our lights lose DEF? What's wrong with a DEF 13 Impaler or Pyre?

The Fennblades do need some adjustments. Set Defense would be great.

Long Riders are terrible, as I've said in other threads.

Scattergunners need something more, maybe Assault.

Things look pretty good for the most part, at least on paper.

[joedj]

Of all the models I used to play, the Hero is the model in MK II that I feel needs loving/an adjustment. As a limited FA model, he should have abilities that make him stand out from normal Champions. I used to run two in MK I. Now with the option to run 3 model units of Champions, I'd be more likely to do that then field the Heros. Though he gives them a Tactic, 3 model units of Champions don't require this nearly as much. For 3 points the Hero's survivability on the way into combat is less than 1.5 Champions (Champs have superior ARM while B2B/more wounds total/greater number of Tough chances).
Adding the similar +2 ARM while B2B with a Champion model would be one solution, though not my preferred one. A modification to his ARM to 17 or 18 would alternately provide the additional durability a Troll solo requires to survive in his primary role as flanker (without Stealth, Prowl, higher DEF). Backswing is better against hard targets/Cleave better against multi-models. My Troll warriors need more help against diverse targets/my beasts hit the single hard ones.

I remember the excitement I had when MK I showed the Hero would have a no-knockdown ability, a bodyguard for pDoomie?! Even when it turned out he had to be in B2B with a Champ. The Hero doesn't need Steady to be good, but increased durability is a must.

[notsoevil]

Sorry, but if your reasoning that 16 ARM is fine is because he'll have +2 ARM from the KSB "most of the time", then you're just flat out wrong. That does nothing but continue to pigeon-hole our lists into bricks centered around the KSB and quite frankly that is the crappiest part about playing Trolls.

[Sirslamb]

Scattergunners, Give them Grievous Wounds or "Decapitate" on the scatterblast
Fennblades: Give them Defensive Strike, IMO thats all they should need for Flavor and I would call them done.

People have already touched on the hero so Im not going to repeat whats already been said :)

[Cannibalbob]

Fennblades: Give them Defensive Strike, IMO thats all they should need for Flavor and I would call them done.




We will not see a unit with an ability like defensive strike in mkII. You will only see this ability on single models.

[Sirslamb]

Why?

It Triggers ONCE per turn if a model ends its activation in this model's melee range. On a one wounder that is more than likely dead if another model enters it's melee range anyway.

I don't see you reasoning in this

[Cannibalbob]

Why?

It Triggers ONCE per turn if a model ends its activation in this model's melee range. On a one wounder that is more than likely dead if another model enters it's melee range anyway.

I don't see you reasoning in this


Because it dropped from every single unit that had an ability like this already. They are removing the majority of things that allow you to do stuff in an opponents turn. Attacking out of turn is now pretty much exclusive to just free-strikes and abilities on casters/solos.

Most likely this change has to do with timed tournaments.

[theummhmmguy]

Sorry, but if your reasoning that 16 ARM is fine is because he'll have +2 ARM from the KSB "most of the time", then you're just flat out wrong. That does nothing but continue to pigeon-hole our lists into bricks centered around the KSB and quite frankly that is the crappiest part about playing Trolls.


I've never understood the line of thinking that the KSB forces us to brick. The way I run my Madrak lists my front line of Kriels and Fenns sometimes get the buff sometimes not, but it doesn't matter as they are the tarpit.

My second wave however, usually has the KSB buff for the entire game as my Champs are generally with 8 to 11" of the stone as I move the stone up with my caster.

I run my stuff pretty spread out though, a 14" to 22" in diameter circle around the stone is a pretty big patch of ground.

[Verjigorm]

Hero's Tragedy needs to change to effect non-warlock/warcaster warrior models. It's too good right now.

[Cannibalbob]

Hero's Tragedy needs to change to effect non-warlock/warcaster warrior models. It's too good right now.


I rather like that it stops eButcher from trying to annihilate a unit of infantry to super-fuel his feat.

[Verjigorm]

I rather like that it stops eButcher from trying to annihilate a unit of infantry to super-fuel his feat.

Yeah, but I have been able to abuse it thoroughly against casters, locks, jacks and beasts. I've used it to pin jacks such as DeathJack in place for turns and just beat it to death slowly. And the idea that a 2pt solo can shut down eButcher's feat? That's ridiculous.

Sure, it forces players to use more missile troops, but it also makes for some of the best anti-jack/beast support you can use. In an army with so many medium bases, it's very hard for jacks to deal with it.

[Cannibalbob]

And the idea that a 2pt solo can shut down eButcher's feat? That's ridiculous.



I would not say it shuts down his feat. It simply forces him to pick a different target.

However, if you are running to engage and surround stuff I can see how this might make the ability a bit problematic. Not sure what they could change the ability to and still keep it useful though.

[Negative9]

One of the main things I want to see is weird unique rules disappear and be replaced with standardized rules that people know the effects of or unique rules that actually work. The Fennblades are a good example of this. I know a lot of us Troll players look at the ability Hard and wander why isn't it Set Defense/Defensive line or Snag and Slash isn't just brutal charge, gang, or even just flat out weapon master.

[Cannibalbob]

I know a lot of us Troll players look at the ability Hard and wander why isn't it Set Defense/Defensive line or Snag and Slash isn't just brutal charge, gang, or even just flat out weapon master.


Fenblades + set defense and brutal charge = money

Actually, I think that might be a bit much for thier cost. I would settle for just set defense, but I would not complain about both.

EDIT: I agree about standardizing most effects. We don't need a bajillion individual rules unless they are extremely important to the unit.

[Kaptain Von]

One of the main things I want to see is weird unique rules disappear and be replaced with standardized rules that people know the effects of...

Was this not one of the core principles of Mark II - use a generic special rule or Advantage wherever possible?

I sincerely hope you've Fed that Back.

[Gorbad]

Fenblades + set defense and brutal charge = money

Actually, I think that might be a bit much for thier cost. I would settle for just set defense, but I would not complain about both.

It's probably to much for there cost but I won't mind seeing them go up in points.

I'd rather have a 4/6 and a 5/8 unit than two 4/6 units just to further differentiate them.

[Templar Coyote]

My Hero is 1-1 for effectivness. First game he used pMadrak's feat to kill seven Legionnairs and three Incubi, pretty much killing every single enemy infantry model on the board. Earned his points back. MAT 10, POW 12 weaponmaster is not nice to average defense and ARM troopers under that feat.

Second game, same list, less infantry in my Champ line saw him wiff needing a 5. He was charged by Blessing of Vengence and died.

I think the Defensive Line would make him about where I'd like short of getting backswing back!

[petegrrrr]

for 5/8, here is what we came up with for fennblades:

Advance deploy (Makes up for their speed loss, still lets them be front line troopers).
Set defense (hey, they actually serve a defensive purpose again).
And go ahead and drop that pow to 11 to give them Gang.
This gives us some first wave shocktroopers that we were missing in mark 2.
They hit hard, but not TOO hard. Have very good mats, but still die to a stiff breeze to even it out.


As for the Hero not getting backswing back, umm...there are actually several models that kept the rule. Brocker, the entire stealhead Cavalry, The Bull (from Dannon blythe and the Bull), The great bears, The demo corps, etc.

It's not as rare as you think.

[Invader Larb]

I would like to see something on the Hero for ARM. He needs either +2 ARM when in base to base with a Champion model or Unyielding. I like the idea of Unyielding but part of his problem is being cut down by bullets as he crosses the table.

Scattergunners need one of three things. +1 RAT, +1 SPD, or a Unit Attachment released sooner rather than later that makes them more interesting.

Fennblades need +1 SPD and Set Defense. They would be different than KW's by having slightly great threat range, a larger range for tying up enemy models and making free strikes. Set Defense would finish the package for them as the meat shield that can take the charge. One problem with the Trollblood army always recieving the charge is that our DEF is so poor. Set DEF on the Fennblades would cause some models to miss. I guess +1 SPD would be enough and we could get a UA down the road that gives them a few other fun abilities.

The Keg Bearer needs help. The +1 Fury on Borka is nice, but Stumbling Drunk is a terrible buff. Most of the time it triggers you waste time resolving the effect and nothing changes. In melee (where we want to be) there is a ver high likelihood that you will stumble towards the enemy model rather than away. It is a waste. My original hope for Liquid courage is that it would give a warrior model/unit no Knockdown and +2 to melee damage rolls. It would be toned down from the old version but worthwhile.

So far I have not been thrilled with ?Borka's feat. I need to try it now with more beasts and Whelps. I find that in general the round I need the +2 Speed is not the same round I want the buffed power attacks. I find myself having to choose one benefit or the other. I guess i need to save it for Trampling opportunities. Rush 2" + Feat 2" + SPD 5 equals 12" trample with an additional die on all the damage rolls. with no forcing aside from perhaps the animus. Again I need to try it with the new Whelp and frenzy rules.

[Tweak]

I think the few areas we need some work fall under the following:

Elemental immunity on our animi should be a round for all of them (pyre, slag)

Borka definitely needs something, I have managed to play all of our locks except pDoomy and he just feels like he is lacking in cohesiveness

Mulg needs something, a change in his animus perhaps, to make him as much a "character" beast as the others in sheer awesome they bring to the table.

Scattergunners need something also, because right now they just sort of seem lacking and never seem to accomplish their role in my lists at least

I'm not saying that nothing else needs work but these for me are the big ones that seem to make the effectiveness of those models drop. I know that I'm not entirely please with the hero, but his tactician has actually come into play a few times to make champs way more versatile.

[ryanbo724]

Here is my list of things that I think still need "something".

Fennblades - They need to be our 5/8 infantry. We have infantry in every point cost except for 5/8. Give them things that will put them there, I don't know if that is +1 POW and Defensive Line, or Brutual Charge or what, but I think we should have infantry ranging across the board, and not having 5/8 is lacking overall.

Hero - I know PP removed the fact that a solo can wipe out jacks and beasts, but the Hero does nothing for me in his current incarnation. When I look at other 3 point solos, I see multiple attacks standard on most 3 point models, plus added utility. The tyrant, fell caller, Whitemane, gudran, Totem Hunter, Warmonger, Master Tormentor and even the maligned Ancestrial Guardian, can usually attack multiple times. In the AG's case, 2 1/2 boosted attacks at MAT 8. Even champions have 2 base attacks (which the hero is). All I would ask of him is a champion buff of charge at SPD +5 and backswing. Shoot, take away his champion buff alltogther. But, I used to run a Fellcaller and a Hero. Now I will run 2 Fellcallers EVERY time. Give him Thresher and let him kill infantry, or Backswing and let him actually do damage to larger targets. Man, the Fellcaller, 3 fellcalls, 2X Weapon master attacks or a RAT 6 spray template, he is BRUTAL.

Mulg - Needs his animus looked at. That's really my only complaint about him. Do I think 2 X AYGTET is a little powerful? Yes, but, at least it gives him his character flavor. I don't know what to do about his animus, but it needs to be better than what it is.

Keg Carrier - Worthless model now. Give it something. It is a "character" model that all it really provides is +1 fury to Borka. It needs more.

Slag/Pyre - I don't like duplicate animus. Make one of them something different.

Borka/Madrak - Remove the damage spells all together or give them FURY 2 spells. As it is right now, I will NEVER cast either one. EVER. PERIOD.

Grim - OK, you gave him stealth killing ability. His spell list needs some tweaking and he really needs ROF 2 to fall in line with other ranged casters/locks. The snare gun should just go back to the way it was. Pick a point, can't be placed effect. It wasn't over powered in my eyes.

Winter troll - RIME needs to make it so it is hit once, frozen, not end of the models activation. His animus is fine that way, but not his ability on him.

Long-riders - The charge/slam ability was a nice start. I agree with most posters that they need something else. SPD 8 +1 POW and I might actually pay the Point cost for them. Or give them ARM 18 and +1 POW. They just need the smallest tweak to make them worth the points.

Scattergunners - While everyone thinks they need tweaking, I agree, but something else added to them would up their point cost. Sprays are extremely powerful, but this unit needs something to make it worth it. Sure, you aren't going to hit anything most of the time, but with a ton of chances, you will hit something at some point. Give them something along the lines of: This model can move SPD +3 and make a ranged attack. No in melee, no buff to RAT. At least that gives them 16" threat ranged. That's all I would ask. Right now, I don't know if I would put this unit on the field very often. This unit has a very fine line that it walks before it moves up to the next point total. You can't give them too much or cost will go up, yet they are just lacking a small "something" for 5/8.

I think thats all for now.

[thesama]

Fennblades - I'm with Larb (and others) on this one, +1 spd, Set Defense, Remove Snag & Slash + hard.

Trollkin Hero - Remove Retaliatory Strike, Reduce to 2 Points.

Borka/Keg Carrier - The Keg Carrier made me weep a little when I first saw the Mk 2 field test, I find his current abilities lackluster and just "not as fun". "Pour a Pint" being both "target model" and having movement determined by deviation is useless and clunky).

[PhoenixBlaze]

I'll add my voice to the chorus of "change the hero!!!".

I loved MK I heroes, I used two and caused all sorts of havoc (rage + Hero = dead things!!!). Retaliatory Strike now sucks as it's just one time, so taking it away and making him 2points would work.

But, he needs the same ARM buff as champs (as he had in MK I with the DEF buff, he is a champ afterall, something it seems PP are forgetting). 1 attack is okay, with MAT 8 (he has that, right?) he'll usually make his second attack, but he needs his P+S 13 back too!

He just took too many nerfs:
ARM nerf
DEF bonus nerf
Backswing nerf
Charge +5" nerf
health nerf
P+S nerf

Jesus, looking at it that way, what the hell happened to our beatstick! If we were shown this in MK I, we'd say piss off and give us something better!

[Steamworks]

Remember folks, everything tastes better with added Thresher.

[Mael]

Oh the whelps! What amazing units they have become! Comfort food makes them a dual unit necessity in our super beast heavy lists! Run in your dire, smash some face, get counter attacked, drop a few whelps, eat them next turn for health and calming effect.

They are really truly amazing.

[Jack Spratt]

My Suggestion for Fennblades:

Lose Hard.
Lose Snag and Slash.
Gains Set Defense.
Gains Brutal Charge.

Basically gives them two modes, offense and defense. They become decent at taking the charge first as the opponent might miss. As well, on the charge, they go up to POW 14's and are much more dangerous. We really want them to be distinguishable from Kriel Warriors as a tarpit unit is not what we need from Fennblades.

I agree - a very nice solution

[grim89]

I for one would like to see a bit of attention given to pDoomshaper. I've found him to still be just to squishy to preform the task he seems to be designed for. Purification is nice but the range of stranglehold and death sentence are just to short to be able to reliably cast them without putting him to close to the heat for him to be able to handle. The bouncer helps but its not enough, he needs something to push him out of that rut like an increase in spell range or something.

More often than not i find that his activation simply involves him casting animi and hanging in the back doing little else. i want him to work like a proper denial caster, cleaning up spells and animi with purify, shutting down beasts with stranglehold, and punishing them for shunting damage on an assassination run during his feat turn.

[StarmanTTLB]

I for one would like to see a bit of attention given to pDoomshaper. I've found him to still be just to squishy to preform the task he seems to be designed for. Purification is nice but the range of stranglehold and death sentence are just to short to be able to reliably cast them without putting him to close to the heat for him to be able to handle. The bouncer helps but its not enough, he needs something to push him out of that rut like an increase in spell range or something.

More often than not i find that his activation simply involves him casting animi and hanging in the back doing little else. i want him to work like a proper denial caster, cleaning up spells and animi with purify, shutting down beasts with stranglehold, and punishing them for shunting damage on an assassination run during his feat turn.its been posted that maybe pDoomie should get a beast bond which basically lets him use a Troll as an arc node - Channeler, right? Even if it's limited to DT's only, that'd be a huge boost to his effectiveness as he can throw magic from his usual spot in the rear.

[Mutton]

its been posted that maybe pDoomie should get a beast bond which basically lets him use a Troll as an arc node - Channeler, right? Even if it's limited to DT's only, that'd be a huge boost to his effectiveness as he can throw magic from his usual spot in the rear.


*blinks*
Seriously. You want to Rampager from your rear ranks. Or Stranglehold to stop enemy beasts or 'jacks with no risk to yourself. Wow, just wow.

[grim89]

I agree whole-heartedly that giving him an arc-node (dire-node?) is severly overpowered. his nice sized control range would switch his spell range from just a bit to low to way way past fair levels.

I think its a step in the right direction though. Maybe if the channeler rule is is limited to only one spell a turn. That way Hoarluk can control the ebb and flow of the battle with his spells like he should be able to without being excessive. i dont think that that is to much of a stretch.

[hooksy67]

perfect the direnode once per turn is what i am talking about
dosn't completely fly in the face of arc nodes but gives him that nice nudge forward he needs

[Invader Larb]

How about allow pDoomshaper to channel through a friendly faction warbeast in his melee range. This would let him hide behind a beast and get a few inches of increased threat. It would encourage him to hang out close with beasts. I like the idea of him mingling with the monsters.

[StarmanTTLB]

*blinks*
Seriously. You want to Rampager from your rear ranks. Or Stranglehold to stop enemy beasts or 'jacks with no risk to yourself. Wow, just wow.You're right, wanting something on par with what WM arcnode factions have is craziness! :rolleyes: And eKaya channeling Muzzle or Dog Pile through Laris too!


I agree whole-heartedly that giving him an arc-node (dire-node?) is severly overpowered. his nice sized control range would switch his spell range from just a bit to low to way way past fair levels.

I think its a step in the right direction though. Maybe if the channeler rule is is limited to only one spell a turn. That way Hoarluk can control the ebb and flow of the battle with his spells like he should be able to without being excessive. i dont think that that is to much of a stretch.Maybe make any spells channeled cost +1FUR, or heck even inflict d3 damage or something on the beast channeling.

[Sevwall]

*blinks*
Seriously. You want to Rampager from your rear ranks. Or Stranglehold to stop enemy beasts or 'jacks with no risk to yourself. Wow, just wow.

I fail to see how this stacks up in a harsher way than arced Domination or Rebuke.

Hell, the other caster with Domination can arc it, albeit at a lower range.

[hooksy67]

or give him the dire node but he cant do it on a beast who has cast its animus this turn or if he has channeled through the beast now the animus cant be used this turn that way either way you can use either the animus or channel

[grim89]

i feel like granting him dire-node and limiting it to one spell a turn would be a good change. ill play test it tomorrow and see if it changes him to a more comprehensive feel. i like the idea of deciding which spell could best use the range boost in the current situation. rampager to clear up a charge lane or stranglehold to lock down a threat or death sentence to mark an important target.

[StarmanTTLB]

Please do, very curious to hear how that works.

[i_like_tool]

Why not just do like Vayl? Let him whap a dire troll or something and that's his Arc node. The old man has the WORSE defensive stats in the game in terms of def/arm(Sevy has better Def)and could REALLY use something I feel

[caramelthunder]

I always thought he could use something like Zerkova's Arcane Artifacts.

[Verjigorm]

I fail to see how this stacks up in a harsher way than arced Domination or Rebuke.

Hell, the other caster with Domination can arc it, albeit at a lower range.

Honestly though, there's nothing in the game that compares to Rebuke.

[grim89]

I just got a few games in testing out the "dire-node" idea, allowing pDoomshaper to channel one spell a turn through a dire troll in his control area. the first game was against circle, my opponent was playing his own set of playtest rules on some changes he had come up with for kromac (i believe i've read the words "giant useless shape-shifting turd" used in the circle boards).

the game went well and i found that doomshaper was able to play a much more active role in my stratagey. i found myself mostly using it to cast rampager to harass his Feral warpwolf and his gnarlhorn in the early turns. although Death Sentance let the Mauler hit with both fist attacks without boosting on the warpwolf, and tossed him beautifully into a squad of ravagers, killing 2 and the shaman. i lost, but we both agreed that doomshaper felt much more synergized and actually affected the way that i played rather than just being a back-line animus machine.

my second game was against a protectorate reznik list, and straglehold was the mvp. even my opponent, who is a serial cheese-caller, agreed that the node gave doomshaper exactly what he needed to be a effective and interesting choice for a lock.

As a caster with some of the worst defensive stats in the game he really does need some means to deliver his spells to where they will actually be useful. I intend on feedbacking this asap.

[StarmanTTLB]

grim89, how exactly did you use the dire-node idea? Once per turn? Any sacrifice made for the channeling? Or just a straight-up arc-node?

[grim89]

the rule i wrote up reads as follows:

Once per turn Doomshaper can select a Dire troll in his control range. Doomshaper may cast one of his spells with the dire troll as the spells point of origin.