MKII Thoughts - Units

[theradon]

Ripped from the Trobloods forum, thought it would be good to put up some threads for the massive amount of top-notch *constructive* Skorne feedback come MKII!

[Aardon24689]

Looking though, pretty happy, get to the Cataphract Arcuarii, cost 7/10, wow they must be awesome. Hmm, no this doesn't seem right. Next page, Cetrati, 8/11 2 more each than Shocktroopers. But, they have nothing over Shocktroopers, one less ARM -3P+S but with Weapon Master to make that a was, no ranged attack to compare with. Is +1 SPD really worth 2 more points?

[Brownboot]

Seems to be a typo with the Tyrant Commander. March and Press Forward are basically the same....

[cunningweasel]

The Arcuarii did gain drag and CRA so it will make their ranged attack worth using now. Am quite pleased. Didn't expect the Cetrati to get weapon master though; wicked.

[Tionas]

The ferox getting pathfinder was a moment of Squee for me.

[Razhem]

Looking though, pretty happy, get to the Cataphract Arcuarii, cost 7/10, wow they must be awesome. Hmm, no this doesn't seem right. Next page, Cetrati, 8/11 2 more each than Shocktroopers. But, they have nothing over Shocktroopers, one less ARM -3P+S but with Weapon Master to make that a was, no ranged attack to compare with. Is +1 SPD really worth 2 more points?
Keep in mind that you get an extra cetrati, so those 2 extra points probably go into paying for him.

[cunningweasel]

The Beast Handlers have me happy as you now don't need to be in B2B; you get a 3" Rng.
At 2 points for the min unit that's sweet by me.

[Aardon24689]

Keep in mind that you get an extra cetrati, so those 2 extra points probably go into paying for him.

Ah there you have it, forgot about that, thanks for pointing that out.

[Elohel]

Arcuarii seem pretty mean now. They can tear apart a light beast/jack per turn.

CRA will give them RAT 10 POW 17 attack and drag the target where it can get hit by 6 MAT 7 POW 12 + 3d6. That can wreck most things.

Figure:
24 damage on average for the CRA
22 damage x 6 for the melee attacks.

Average Arm on a light = 17

This will average about 37 damage. Figure maybe 1 or 2 models cant get into melee range. Still about 23/24 damage on average. Enough to kill a 5 point model once per turn.

[Aardon24689]

Arcuarii seem pretty mean now. They can tear apart a light beast/jack per turn.

CRA will give them RAT 10 POW 17 attack and drag the target where it can get hit by 6 MAT 7 POW 12 + 3d6. That can wreck most things.

Figure:
24 damage on average for the CRA
22 damage x 6 for the melee attacks.

Average Arm on a light = 17

This will average about 37 damage. Figure maybe 1 or 2 models cant get into melee range. Still about 23/24 damage on average. Enough to kill a 5 point model once per turn.

Unfortunatly I don't think that is going to work. If you CRA only the one actually making the attack would get to use the free melee attack from the Drag.

[Razhem]

Arcuarii seem pretty mean now. They can tear apart a light beast/jack per turn.

CRA will give them RAT 10 POW 17 attack and drag the target where it can get hit by 6 MAT 7 POW 12 + 3d6. That can wreck most things.

Figure:
24 damage on average for the CRA
22 damage x 6 for the melee attacks.

Average Arm on a light = 17

This will average about 37 damage. Figure maybe 1 or 2 models cant get into melee range. Still about 23/24 damage on average. Enough to kill a 5 point model once per turn.
Only the model that does the dragging gets to make a melee attack after a drag, so if you combine 3 guys, only one gets to do the attack. They still have potential, but they aren't making huge holes into everything.

[Rynth]

Seems to be a typo with the Tyrant Commander. March and Press Forward are basically the same....

There is some difference, Press Forward can effect a solo, March only buffs unit. IMO, even with that difference they probably aren't different enough to warrant being a different ability.

[Magnus' Right Hand Man]

There is some difference, Press Forward can effect a solo, March only buffs unit. IMO, even with that difference they probably aren't different enough to warrant being a different ability.

They both affect friendly faction non-warlock warrior model/unit.

[Elohel]

Only the model that does the dragging gets to make a melee attack after a drag, so if you combine 3 guys, only one gets to do the attack. They still have potential, but they aren't making huge holes into everything.

Hmm i forgot that the other members of the cra dont actually shoot. Still, I think they very much improved over their mk1 version.

[TheOrange]

The tyrant commander must be a typo as both are essentially the same. Kinda sucks that he also lost shared defense, could have added a nice def. boost to my warlocks.

The change in the range of beast handlers special actions seems pretty big, now they can enrage a warbeast one turn, then catch up next turn to medicate or condition.

Is it me or did we just lose set defense on just about everything we had?

[cunningweasel]

The tyrant commander must be a typo as both are
Is it me or did we just lose set defense on just about everything we had?

The Brute and Tyrant still have it although the Tyrant can't grant it anymore.
The Cetrati swapped it for weaponmaster it seems.

[werecat]

I think the Arcuarri are still grossly overpriced. Cetrati though, I'm in love with.

Poor poor venators... they're right back to where they were. Overpriced. And with the soulward pooping out on us, they're even more silly. They should be 8 for the full unit.


Karak are ridiculously cheap for what they do though. Love that. And Praetorians are still one of the most cost effective units in the game.

Oh, and immortals are FANTASTIC. Woohoo for that.

[cunningweasel]

Was just about to chime in on how cheap the Karax are, might need to purchase some now.
I dig the Arcuarii, it's just the Cetrati got the weapon master buff so they still look more appealing.

[Pickles]

Ah there you have it, forgot about that, thanks for pointing that out.

Shocktroopers are pretty damn expensive though so Cetrati got a nerf through huge price increases (50% by my estimation).
They also lost set defence but the weapon master > brutal charge & 8 boxes >> 5. So they should be more expensive but I think they are probably in shock trooper never played land.

[Aardon24689]

it's just the Cetrati got the weapon master buff so they still look more appealing.

Sure, but they are 3 less damage on a charge. So I consider weapon master a small buff but not huge.

Ferox took a hit damage wise also. They do more damage on impact attacks but a lot less overall.

[Draekon Darkstorm]

Things that I'm not happy with at first glance.

1- Venators are WAY overpriced compared to other units. Compare them to Idrians, Trenchers, Pygs, Reeves, etc. The ability to gain a small bit of extra damage is not worth the price that they have been assigned.

2 - Xerxis does NOT need another 3 fury spell which he'll never use. He's not going to hit anything with it thanks to his poor Fury stat, because he'll probably not have fury to boost to hit if he upkeeps his two spells. Especially now that he can hold 3 fury and have ARM 20.

3- Ancestral Guardian is not worth his 3 point cost. He's definitely no more than two points. He no longer has weapon master, and can only use retaliatory strike once a turn, definitely not worth three points.

More to come as I look further into the models.

Draekon

[TheOrange]

Sure, but they are 3 less damage on a charge. So I consider weapon master a small buff but not huge.
Yea but weapon master is always on, it's not a bonus they only get when charging. No set defense sucks, but running into a bunch of ARM10, MAT7 weapon masters ain't gonna be pretty either.

[Tyrannus]

Something which surprised the holy hell out of me was seeing the Tyrant and Standard Bearer keeping the Battle Standard rule. What with CMD 10 on the Tyrant, the unit is still pretty badass. If only we could find out what Press Forward does now :P

Ferox losing the cat bite doesn't sit too well with me, especially since there's no Merciless Assault to double their attacks. Combat Rider sort of compensates for it, we'll see if it's enough after a few games. At least if another cat kills your charge target, you still get the mount attack.

[Yertle4]

I think what makes me happiest by far is that the Paingiver abilities are all RNG 3 rather than b2b. OMG OMG OMG.

Yeah, that's really really good. They totally are the Choir of Hordes now.

[Dealer]

Is it me or did Immortals loose tough and final blow thingie? They did get Vengeance ala Bane Knights as a trade off.

[NaCl Catapulto]

Well, as a longtime fan of the Xerxis/Cataphract phalanx, I'm pretty damned pleased. At 8 boxes apeice, Arcuarii are looking to remain my favorite unit in MKII. With CRA to make the fancier drag more reliable? 11 points sounds great, but we'll see how they work out on the table. The loss of set defence on the Cetrati seems poopy, but when you think about the 3 extra boxes & weaponmaster, I call it even. Powerful charge was guaranteed damage, but weapommaster gives them that potential while fulfilling their role as the premier Skorne anvil.

Gawds, I hate writing on the Wii. point, click, point, click, on and on.....

[Aardon24689]

The loss of set defence on the Cetrati seems poopy, but when you think about the 3 extra boxes

Oh I didn't notice they actually gained wounds. Hmm, they are starting to look decent for the cost.

[TheOrange]

Is it me or did Immortals loose tough and final blow thingie? They did get Vengeance ala Bane Knights as a trade off.

Hum, yea losing tough is a bit of a blow but Vengeance sounds like a lot of fun.

[Wolfbane]

They are a 5/8 unit now. I assure you I will be using them a lot. And I mean, a LOT :D

[sirspen]

I think what makes me happiest by far is that the Paingiver abilities are all RNG 3 rather than b2b. OMG OMG OMG.

Yeah, that's really really good. They totally are the Choir of Hordes now.

Couldn't agree more. I loved them in Mk1 and now they are just looking even better! I also like the "adds +2" on charge/slam" bit instead of "Charg/Slam at SPD + 5"". It leaves it open to get a beast that charges at SPD + 5" to begin with anyway (Drool :p).

[werecat]

They are a 5/8 unit now. I assure you I will be using them a lot. And I mean, a LOT :D

YEAH, so agreed on that one! I really need to pick them up.

[GaspysInhaler]

They are a 5/8 unit now. I assure you I will be using them a lot. And I mean, a LOT :D

I will tell you as a Cryx player, ever since Mk2 came out, I've had a lot of trouble fitting Bane Knights into my 35 pt lists because they are 6/10. 5/8 allows you to fit so much more, it seems like the ideal cost for a solid infantry unit, which is why I've been defaulting to Bane Thralls over the Knights in roughly 80% of my games.

The vengeance ability is awesome, you guys will enjoy it. It will make your opponent think twice about trying to take out 1 or 2 immortals at a time. Its either all or nothing when he is engaged with you. I was playing my friend's menoth the other day, and he had a deliverer scatter onto a bane knight and killed it on accident, which in turn gave the other 9 free attacks on his blessing of vengeance, taking it out before my activation phase even started lol. Enjoy.

[Joroth]

I think the most upsetting thing for me solo/unit wise is the AG. Far too costly, once per turn retaliatory strike, gaining of up to only 3 souls, and loss of weapon master. I see much grumblings in the future...

[dbo]

This is dboeren: I've just finally managed to get my fieldtest account straightened out. Still haven't gotten my forum login to work properly so I made this temporary account...

Same drill, this is based on initial impressions without reading anyone else's posts.

Cataphract Arcuarii: They can hit after a drag and have CRA. Lost the useless tie-up ability, who cares? 8 health, 10 points for a full squad. Looks fairly good. B.

Cataphract Cetrati: Lost 1 POW, but gained Weaponmaster. I'll take that trade! A little expensive, but they've got 8 health now. They look great. B+.
EDIT: Oops, they lost Set Defense. Make that a B while I think about it some more.

Immortals: No longer hard to field because they're not so dependent on soul tokens, gotta love that. Vengeance is pretty cool too. B+

Bloodrunners: Look cool. Honestly I never bought the models so I'm unsure how they changed. For 5 points, I'm happy. B.

Paingiver Beast Handlers: Cheap? 3" range? Wahoo! Pure A.

Ferox: Changes to cav make me unsure. They look alright. Provisional B.

Karax: No more AOE shenanigans, and they lost 1 ARM and Set Defense. Honestly, they look a bit lackluster compared to other factions basic reach+shieldwall troops. C, immunity to AOEs doesn't excuse not being able to fight better.

Praetorian Swordsmen: Look like Praetorians. B+. The UA seems OK too.

Tyrant Commander: Executioner is mean. Anti-trollbloods, anti-Menoth, anti-(enemy)Skorne. March and Press Forward seem the same, looks like a misprint. B+.

Venator Reivers: Ouch, they're a bit expensive! Plus, they don't have the Drake's animus or as nice support from the Soulward. C+.

Venator Catapult: Range 18 with arcing fire at POW 15 and AOE 4? Excuse me? I guess the time to buy catapults is finally here. B+.


Overall, I'm pretty happy with the units. The only ones I'm a little unsure about are the Venators and Karax. Venators seem kind of expensive and they lost a lot of their best support. OK, 8 points might be too cheap, I agree with that. Maybe they need a small extra ability or something? I dunno, maybe they're fine as-is and I shouldn't expect anything but plain ranged troops.

Karax are just too plain. They lost ARM, they lost Set Defense. They're really sort of bland with only the AOE resistance to distinguish them.

[OmegaLolrus]

I'm a little disappointed with the loss of Ready Stance on the Swordsmen... though the Ranked Attack strikes me as nifty. Means there's one more thing that'll make screening Venator Reivers fun for the whole family.

I'm hoping they kick Press Forward for the Tyrant back to what it was before. It could be fairly impressive stacked on everything else...

[Khador247]

PPS_DC confirmed that the Weapon Master on the Cetrati is not a typo. They are costly for sure BUT you're getting six guys with 8 wounds each that have Shield Wall, Combined Melee Attack, AND Weapon Master not to mention decent speed and reach. With the MKII rules for field promotion you won't be losing shield wall either. They look pretty awesome to me. The Arcuarii are only one point cheaper and in my opinion aren't nearly as attractive.

Xerxis, ah Xerxis. Your defense may be crap but the fact that you can now benefit from Armor of Karrak is huge. That should make him much more durable. Also his feat allows for additional die on all melee damage rolls. I believe it was just on charges in MKI.

I really wanted to build an EMorghul, Master Tormenter, Bloodrunner army but held off on purchasing the MT and Bloodrunners. I'm glad I waited. The MT got nerfed big time. The thing that jumped out the most for me is that Bloodrunners no longer get the extra damage die against enemy models in melee with the MT. So, basically all they're good for is the auto point of damage now. They're solid against single wound models but not against harder targets. Beast Handlers on the other hand are more auto include than ever.

EMorghul is still awesome. He still has the amazing feat and synnergy with the Extoller Soulward. He no longer has to spend fury to gain stealth or decapitation. He lost the free move from the fan, Shadow Step I believe. That was nice for setting up assassination runs. The loss of Shadow Walker hurts.

Karn is still a good beast but isn't what he was. The combo strike is certainly nice but not as overpowering as the old ability.

Venators are good but still pricey.

The Catapult is looking like a purchase that I might need to make.

The Praetorian Swordsmen are good and very cheap.

Ferox are still decent but got hit pretty hard by losing hit points and the bite attack. At least they kept Jump and Brutal Charge.

Ancestral Guardian was toned down. That was predictible. MKII is not kind to super solos in general.

Eh that's good for now. I'm tired.

[Arkady]

Swordsmen, Immortals, Paingivers, and Venators are all great. Couldn't care less about the rest.

[Zerosoul]

The MT got nerfed big time.

You are absolutely crazy. MAT 8? Reach? Anatomical Precision? Thresher? The ability to jump 9 inches now? The Master Tormentor is one of the best solos in the game.

[Junn Khan]

I'm feeling the same as most people here, the changes to infantry are alright except for the AG as a knee jerk but who knows, when we first got Primal it didn't get much love then so we'll see.

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

The MT Rocks. I'm getting another one. No singlewound melee infantry in the world will stand before the Army of the Western Reaches and the Arcuarii will brutally ravage multiwound infantry with ARM of 16 or 17...or will they? I'm a bit uncertain about the wording. Does it mean POW12 ranged damage, drag, then two melee attacks?

Ah well, the Void Spirit will still rip living models a new one and now it's extra scarey as well. The Extoller just changed its role, I think. It provides late game souls for any surviving AG's rather than megabuff them. Too bad Ghost Sight is just model.

I think the AG nerf is ok...it gets to run and charge for free, after all, and boosts the new cheap Immortals with no effort. However, and this is the caveat: it needs either Weapon Master or 5 souls back. One will do. If not, the Master Tormentor outperforms it and the Immortals are not THAT good as to buy a semi-useless solo.

Venator Reivers are too expensive. They need more oomph or should cost less. There is still little reason to take Karax over Swordsmen, especially with the UA. The Catapult crew are a poor man's Mortars, at the same price. At least they can get Eyeless Sight and Magical Weapon. Now that is weird.

Time to try things out.

Legion still looks like it was intended to be played be people who don't feel the need to think when they are playing Hordes :D

[Khador247]

You are absolutely crazy. MAT 8? Reach? Anatomical Precision? Thresher? The ability to jump 9 inches now? The Master Tormentor is one of the best solos in the game.

His roll has changed. Now he is a hit and run model. Before he could get to the enemy no matter where they were and made it so that the Bloodrunners could damage more than just single wound models. I'll probably get a MT but will skip the BRs.

[TheOrange]

The Master Tormentor is one of the best solos in the game.
Against single wound infantry. That's pretty much the only role BRs have been shoehorned into. Decent stuff but definitly not as good as they were before and I doubt we'll see much of any change to them when the FT is done.

[dbo]

I like the new Master Tormentor. The Bloodrunners are more niche, but I can certainly find room for a 2 point guy that can wipe out entire shieldwall formations of single wound troopers for me.

[zee]

They both affect friendly faction non-warlock warrior model/unit.

I think March in this case could be a self-buff for this unit, while Press Forward is the buff for another unit. You can make someone else pahtfinder, but not have pathfinder yourself during the same turn. (notice, pathfinder is not among this unit's list of abilities)

[Soylent]

Arcurii
To be fair I never used them much before though they seem mostly unchanged in the overall scheme.

Cetrati
Even without weapon master they would be a staple, now they have it. Good for most locks, Xerxis will love them. Good beaters against the new jack enviornment.

Immortals
These guys really need an AG to work well and since AGs are subpar now you'll be paying an extra 3 points for a placeholder. All said they aren't too bad other than that.

Bloodrunners
With less infantry there will be less of a reason to take these guys. Still good at what they do. A solid anti troop unit.

Beast Handlers
The Choir of Skorne.

Ferox
Some solid combos out there with certain casters. Good for getting past the front line to the support or casters. You pay for the premium though.

Karax
A solid cheap unit. A shame Death March got nerfed to hell and nack. I have a hard time seeing them being taken over Swordsman though.

Swordsman
Cheap, amazing. A staple unit.

Swordsman UA
Overtake and Ranked Attacks for 2 points, worth it.

Tyrant Commander and Standard Bearer
3 points to keep your troops and solos from fleeing is almost worth it. I'm hoping Press-Forward is a typo as it's the same as March. March and Exicutioner are both nice and they affect beasts and solos. I'll miss shared defense though. Worth the points.

Venators
Much the same. I'm wondering if the Extollers Eyeless Sight on the model performing a CRA will hit as long as the others can draw LoS. Seems like it would. Good unit with about the same point cost.

Catapult Crew
Looks like we took a lesson from Khador. Just shy from hitting beasts/jacks reliably if you can't take a Cannoneer. Great for taking out support and the few units running around.

[Soylent]

I think March in this case could be a self-buff for this unit, while Press Forward is the buff for another unit. You can make someone else pahtfinder, but not have pathfinder yourself during the same turn. (notice, pathfinder is not among this unit's list of abilities)


Read Battle Plans, you're still targetting a model/unit with both March and Press Forward. I'm betting it's a typo.

[Magnus' Right Hand Man]

Read Battle Plans, you're still targetting a model/unit with both March and Press Forward. I'm betting it's a typo.

Absolutely has to be a typo. And for those who are still confused to the targeting, all three abilities Executioners, March, and Press Forward are Battle Plans and falls under the classification of and targeting requirements listed for Battle Plan.

[Zerosoul]

Against single wound infantry. That's pretty much the only role BRs have been shoehorned into. Decent stuff but definitly not as good as they were before and I doubt we'll see much of any change to them when the FT is done.

And? It's not like POW 8 with 3 dice were threatening much before. If you got the charge, sure, but then your Bloodrunners get squished. Bloodrunners were never there for shanking multi-wounders. Skorne have many, many ways of doing that now (not that they didn't before...) and none of rely on fitting a round peg in a square hole. The MT now can hunt support solos (even though the Void Spirit is just obviously better at that) but is also fully capable of carving the beating heart out of a unit with little fear of reprisal.

[dboeren]

Arcurii
To be fair I never used them much before though they seem mostly unchanged in the overall scheme.

The key difference is that they now get a free attack after dragging which is a fairly nice bonus. Imagine the hilarity of dropping an enemy light warbeast to DEF 7 with a Krea, then shooting and hitting it several times while pulling it miles from its own army for the rest of your force to finish off at a safe distance.

Darn shame the Krea's Paralysis doesn't work on anything but Warbeasts, it would be great to do the same to a caster...

[Khador247]

And? It's not like POW 8 with 3 dice were threatening much before. If you got the charge, sure, but then your Bloodrunners get squished. Bloodrunners were never there for shanking multi-wounders.

But the fact is they could shank multi-wounders in MKI. Since the MT has reach (and had Acrobatics) it was pretty easy to get at least a couple of them in melee range of a model that was also in melee with the MT, especially if the enemy model had a medium or large base, in MKI. They're fast so it wasn't terribly difficult to get charges with them. Even though they were only P&S 8 they could definitely do some damage to hard targets on the charge IF they could me close enough to the MT. Now they're all about dealing with single wound models. That's fine and all but I'll save my money.

Soylent, it is hard for me to disagree with any of your assessments. I think you're pretty much spot on.

Of course this will all change again in less than two months and then will change again after that so we'll have to wait and see the final rules to really know how good or bad things are.

[Khador247]

My problem with the Arcuarii is that while dragging is nice I think you're paying a very heavy premium for that ability. They're only one point cheaper than their Cetrati cousins who have shield wall and combined melee attack in addition to weapon master. Dragging would be a much more useful ability if you could drag large based models. The Cetrati seem way better to me for only 1 point more.

[dboeren]

My problem with the Arcuarii is that while dragging is nice I think you're paying a very heavy premium for that ability. They're only one point cheaper than their Cetrati cousins who have shield wall and combined melee attack in addition to weapon master. Dragging would be a much more useful ability if you could drag large based models. The Cetrati seem way better to me for only 1 point more.

How often does a MAT 7 Weaponmaster need to CMA? I'm OK without that. Shieldwall is nice, no argument there, but it does cost SPD when you use it and the Arcuarii will be more mobile and have a longer threat range. I think it's relatively fair but of course it needs testing to really tell.

[Benj]

Also for whatever it's worth, Death Marching Arcuari can actually use their harpoon shots as the march attack. Boosted attack and damage make it that much more likely to actually succeed in dragging, though I'm not sure if they get the melee whack on the march or not.

Personally I find the Venators to be the the most disappointing unit. I actually liked their semi-hybrid (MAT6) style in MK1, and now they're down to usual "shooting only" stats. Plus none of the help we had for their shooting (Extoller, Paralytic Field, Impact) no longer exists.

Another weird thing is Karax being SPD 5. They look like they're made to walk in front of Venators, but the Venators are still SPD 6. Almost looks like a typo really.

[DeathgodC]

Cataphract Arcuarii and Cataphract Cetrati are just so much better then there counter parts Demo corps and shocktroopers.

for 1-2 more points we get a unit that has damn near the same damage output +1 additional guy, 8 wound each and both units are weapon masters. Dare i say Xerxis can now run a whole army of weapon masters with 5d6 on feat turn if they charge and 4d6 when not charging and the boost from Fury is just sick.

[Khador247]

How often does a MAT 7 Weaponmaster need to CMA? I'm OK without that. Shieldwall is nice, no argument there, but it does cost SPD when you use it and the Arcuarii will be more mobile and have a longer threat range. I think it's relatively fair but of course it needs testing to really tell.

CMA is unnecessary for a weapon master unit. That's why I was assuming that Weapon Master was a misprint on the Cetrati card. It isn't a misprint though. PPS_DC said so. An 8 hit point, high MAT, shield wall, weapon master unit is pretty awesome. 11 points is an awful lot but you're getting a lot. Plus the Tyrant Commander & Standard make them even better. I wish I could magically make my Arcuarii into a second unit of Cetrati.

[droffset]

Question:
So Swordsment with eMakeda have vengance. With the UA they have Overtake.

So does that mean that (if a swordsman was killed) at the start of your turn each swordsman can move 3" and potentially move another 1" if it kills something?

Pretty cool.

[dboeren]

CMA is unnecessary for a weapon master unit. That's why I was assuming that Weapon Master was a misprint on the Cetrati card. It isn't a misprint though. PPS_DC said so. An 8 hit point, high MAT, shield wall, weapon master unit is pretty awesome. 11 points is an awful lot but you're getting a lot. Plus the Tyrant Commander & Standard make them even better. I wish I could magically make my Arcuarii into a second unit of Cetrati.

I don't think the Arcuarii are necessarily inferior though.

1. They're 1 point cheaper
2. They hit 1 point harder
3. They lose 1 point of ARM
4. They trade CMA for CRA
5. They trade Shieldwall for a ranged weapon with drag and a free melee attack after

I think we've agreed that CMA is of minor importance for this type of unit, so it's mainly about how much you value the Shieldwall and the extra one point of ARM.

Are these things worth so much that paying an extra point, losing a point of POW, and losing the ranged attack are always a no brainer trade? I think there's significant value with the new Arcuarii and they're worth considering.

[Keegantir]

I have always loved the Arcuarii, and now they are even better. Whether they are good enough for their points remains to be seen, but I will be playtesting them a lot.

[whatyoutalkinboutwillis]

CMA is unnecessary for a weapon master unit. That's why I was assuming that Weapon Master was a misprint on the Cetrati card. It isn't a misprint though. PPS_DC said so. An 8 hit point, high MAT, shield wall, weapon master unit is pretty awesome. 11 points is an awful lot but you're getting a lot. Plus the Tyrant Commander & Standard make them even better. I wish I could magically make my Arcuarii into a second unit of Cetrati.

We just got done with a few games and the CMA was absolutely necessary against my army. Also, compared to Cetrati, the Arcuarii are very bad. I just don't see any good use for them with RAT 5, you aren't going to be hitting much if anything.

The easiest fix for this in my opinion is bringing the Krea's ranged animus back so you can reduce the defence of units. Leave it as just removing defence and nothing else though.

[dboeren]

We just got done with a few games and the CMA was absolutely necessary against my army. Also, compared to Cetrati, the Arcuarii are very bad. I just don't see any good use for them with RAT 5, you aren't going to be hitting much if anything.

You haven't given any reasons to support your claim, all you've done is just declare them to be bad because you say so.

RAT 5 will hit a lot of light warbeasts and medium-based infantry on average rolls which are your primary drag targets. A 2-man CRA will hit the rest of them, and you're only losing a single melee attack afterward.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Speaking of the Tyrant Commander, can he issue all three battleplans in his activation to three units (one battleplan to one model/unit of course)?

[whatyoutalkinboutwillis]

You haven't given any reasons to support your claim, all you've done is just declare them to be bad because you say so.

RAT 5 will hit a lot of light warbeasts and medium-based infantry on average rolls which are your primary drag targets. A 2-man CRA will hit the rest of them, and you're only losing a single melee attack afterward.

Actually I think currently the 'norm' for light beasts is averaging out at def 13. So you'll be needing to CRA a majority of the time. If you assume both the ranged and melee attack hit you are only going to be doing about 8 or so damage to a light beast.

I can think of lots of things with much higher threat ranges to take care of them. Def 12 and armor 15 don't go a long way, I'd much rather spend a single point more and get the Cetrati for def 12 and armor 20. CMA is just gravy to be honest, lets you hit those pesky def 14 and up models with greater certainty.

In terms of bang for the buck Cetrati are just better, hands down.

[cunningweasel]

I am happy with how the Arcuarii turned out. The CRA will pay dividends, then the drag and 1 attack afterward. Thing is this just makes it brilliant for other models to charge a nicely set up piece. Just remember positioning to choose who is the shooter, preferably the flank man so there's room to charge the victim.

[Keegantir]

Speaking of the Tyrant Commander, can he issue all three battleplans in his activation to three units (one battleplan to one model/unit of course)?

My guess is that they are not finished working out the bugs with him. As it is worded he could actually use all 3 on every unit in his command range which is obviously not intended. It will most likely go back to the can issue one a turn.

[dboeren]

Actually I think currently the 'norm' for light beasts is averaging out at def 13. So you'll be needing to CRA a majority of the time. If you assume both the ranged and melee attack hit you are only going to be doing about 8 or so damage to a light beast.

Let's see if your assumption is correct:

Trollbloods have the Pyre Troll, Slag Troll, Axer, Bouncer, Impaler, and Winter trolls. Every single one is DEF 12. The Champions are DEF 12 as well.

Circle has the Argus at DEF 15, Gorax and Woldwyrd at 13, Woldwatcher at 10. The Ravagers are DEF 13.

Skorne has the Krea at 12, Drake, Brute, Shaman, and Savage at 13. Both units of Cataphracts are DEF 12.

Everblight has the Nephalim Protector at DEF 12 and the Nephalim Soldier and Teraph at DEF 13. The Raek is DEF 15. Warmongers and Warspears are both 12's.

So let's add that up. 5 out of 6 medium wound infantry are DEF 12. 9 out of 19 light warbeasts are DEF 12 (or worse). Totalled up that's 14 of 25, over half. Adding in the jacks, nearly all non-bonejack light jacks are DEF 12 as well and I think probably takes us up to around 75% of light jacks/beasts and multiwound infantry being DEF 12 or lower. So no, I don't really think it's as bad as you claim.

Of course, you also can take more than one shot if you need to and once a model is drug in I would expect the rest of the unit to join in with the attacks. "Only" 8 damage coincidentally kills medium infantry of which only the Ravagers aren't hit on average rolls and for light beasts or jacks several hits from the rest of the unit will do the trick.



I can think of lots of things with much higher threat ranges to take care of them. Def 12 and armor 15 don't go a long way, I'd much rather spend a single point more and get the Cetrati for def 12 and armor 20. CMA is just gravy to be honest, lets you hit those pesky def 14 and up models with greater certainty. In terms of bang for the buck Cetrati are just better, hands down.

Sure, because only the single model with the longest threat range matters, right? What's that, some sort of sniped Longgunner with a speed buff? A Mortar being pushed around by a team of Devastators? Perhaps someone has deceived you, but Cetrati aren't ARM 20. They're ARM 16 with an option to go into Shieldwall but when they're doing that they aren't running or charging so I think it's safe to say that it doesn't apply all the time. Even while in shieldwall there are a decent number of models that have Chain Weapon or can attack them in the back arc which ignores the +4 ARM bonus. So do AOEs in their back arc and a variety of spells, as well as continuous effects and various auto-point damage sources.

Come on, if the Cetrati are really so obviously and vastly better then surely you can come up with a valid reason why or expose the giant holes in my arguments. If you said that the Cetrati seem slightly better, I'd probably go along with that. They cost slightly more, they should be slightly better. They're also more reliable, I'm more than happy to agree with that. Arcuarii are only going to reach their full potential if you keep your eye out for potential harpoon situations. After all, if you never use them then you're paying those points for nothing. Cetrati can run a bit more on autopilot so you don't have to be tricky to get them to do well. If you prefer that, fair enough, I think many people would. I'd probably take Cetrati as my first pick more than half the time too, but I might take Arcuarii as my second unit instead of another Cetrati unit. I just don't see that the difference is that large though.

[Khador247]

dboeren, I don't play Skorne nearly as much as you. I'm a Khador guy. You could probably tell from my login name. ;) Skorne is my Hordes faction and honestly I don't use them very often at all. I definitely want to get some field test games in with them though starting Friday.

I just look at the harpoons as a pretty situational ability that we're paying a premium for. The Arcuarii have a 10 inch threat range on the charge. They have a 13 inch threat range with their harpoons. Obviously if something is in charge range you want them to charge it especially since they have weapon master. So really what we're talking about is that three inch difference in threat range.

There are instances where those three inches will matter whether it be simply as a matter of math or if there is rough terrain in the way and you don't have a way to deal with it (maybe your Tyrant Commander died).

There are instances where it might be nice to drag a beast out of the enemy lock's control area so they can't use its fury. Again though if it is in charge range you'll just charge it.

The drag ability is nice but it would be SO much nicer if you could drag large based models. If I have a unit with weapon master I want them taking down heavy beasts/jacks not mucking about with lights.

I can see where it would be useful to drag in other medium based infantry units and beat them down. Again though I want to be charging if at all possible. It always comes back to that.

My initial thought, without having play tested yet, is that there should be a two point difference between Cetrati and Arcuarii. As I said I play Khador and I love my MOWs. The new Cetrati are like a cross breed of Demo Corps and Shocktroopers. They have the hitting power of MOW DC and the shield wall of MOW ST. The only thing the Cetrati lack in comparison is backswing. I say "only" but that's big of course. However you do get one more man in the unit with Catapracts than you do MOW.

They have 1 more SPD than MOW, always get the extra die of damage (without a * attack), have 1 more DEF, and shield wall. In addition you have a two man unit that can give them 2 inches of movement or pathfinder and oh what I wouldn't give for that. Khador players have been screaming about a UA for MOWs for a long time.

Shield wall gets a pretty big boost in MKII as well in that you don't have to be so careful with your unit leader thanks to the new rules for field promotion.

In any case I'll be using both units because the Catapracts are one of the biggest reasons I started Skorne (along with the Titans and the epic, awesome badassery that is Morghul). I love the change to Xerxis' feat and the fact that he can now benefit from Armor of Karrak and has Fury. Either flavor of Cataphracts will hit like a ton of bricks with him.

Hopefully some of this sounded like it made sense. I'm super tired and need to get to bed.

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

Personally I find the Venators to be the the most disappointing unit. I actually liked their semi-hybrid (MAT6) style in MK1, and now they're down to usual "shooting only" stats. Plus none of the help we had for their shooting (Extoller, Paralytic Field, Impact) no longer exists.


Yes...Paralysis is so narrow in its utility, it really doesn't work as a reason to take Venators.

Their semi-hybrid Mk1 status was, in my opinion, pretty lacklustre as the meta was then. I do not see the reason for them to be 6/10 as they are now. We have very little or no ranged support in the Skorne army, and that price for the Venators might well eliminate them as a viable option. They compare badly with every other shooty unit in both Hordes and Warmachine at the same price. The +1POW/+2POW from Burst Fire is pretty lacklustre. Perhaps if all you do is play Trollbloods or opponents who only rely on medium based models, but even then it is best against low-ARM singlewounds. Reivers. The Bane of Kriel Warriors.

Why does the Legion, with quite a lot of ranged support, pay 5/8 for an archer unit that replaces Burst Fire with Suppressive fire, whose only other drawback is -2 ARM and -1 STR? At 7/10 the archers get Dual Shot, Pathfinder and Combined Arms, plus one more shooter and the banner CMD reroll. The Retribution pays 5/8 for +2 RNG and Ranked attack instead of Burst Fire, and have access to Snipe in addition to all their other ranged support. At 7/10 they get another shooter, the CMD reroll, War Tempered, and the Minifeat.

Nobody is going to ARM buff the Venators anyway, and they are not a melee unit. Burst Fire enables a single POW22 against large targets (or two POW 17's), but the Legion get, for the same price, two POW21s when they Dual Shot. The Retribution gets only one POW21 for the same price, but get a number of other abilities that more than make up for it, such as the Whites of their Eyes damage bonus and the ability to CRA into melee.

The Venators need a price downgrade or more useful abilities. 5/8 would be more reasonable. They'd still not be a fantastic unit for the price, but at least they would be appropriately costed. They could also lose a pip of STR or ARM, if the designers feel their base statline would be too good.

I'm going to test the hell out of these lads, to see if I am mistaken. But overprizing was precicely the problem we had with the Venators before, and then we could link them up with support such as Impact or the Paralytic Field, or make them assasination specialists with eMorghul and the Extoller. All that went away.

Now to go put my money where my mouth is. Or my foot in my mouth, if previously undreamed qualities appear when I try them out.

[Aardon24689]

In case anyone missed it:


Tyrant Commander - Replace the Text of Press Forward with "The affected model/unit gains +2” movement."

[dboeren]

I can see where it would be useful to drag in other medium based infantry units and beat them down. Again though I want to be charging if at all possible. It always comes back to that.

This is a common argument, why should you harpoon if you could be charging? Most people agree that there is a 3" range band at which you CAN'T charge and would therefore "settle" for harpooning, but generally the ****ysis ends there.

One of the situations where the harpoons shine is when charging would cause an exchange of models. ie - you would kill their stuff and then they will kill the Arcuarii. For instance, I remember a game I had against Trollbloods once. His Pyre Troll was up front shooting at my guys. It was in charge range of my Arcuarii, so no brainer right? I can charge and kill it quite easily. Problem is, he had a whole unit of champs waiting behind it. If I charged that Pyre I was going to get slaughtered and come out behind on the trade. Instead, I harpooned the Pyre, dragged him in, and killed him on MY TERMS. I was too far away for the Champs to get at me, and they lost a Pyre for nothing.

Why not always charge? Because it's not always SAFE to charge. CRA may give us more reasons too, perhaps to drag in a high DEF caster that the Arcuarii can't hit on their own very well in order to put them in range of our models that can boost to kill.

[whatyoutalkinboutwillis]

Let's see if your assumption is correct:

So let's add that up. 5 out of 6 medium wound infantry are DEF 12. 9 out of 19 light warbeasts are DEF 12 (or worse). Totalled up that's 14 of 25, over half. Adding in the jacks, nearly all non-bonejack light jacks are DEF 12 as well and I think probably takes us up to around 75% of light jacks/beasts and multiwound infantry being DEF 12 or lower. So no, I don't really think it's as bad as you claim.

Of course, you also can take more than one shot if you need to and once a model is drug in I would expect the rest of the unit to join in with the attacks. "Only" 8 damage coincidentally kills medium infantry of which only the Ravagers aren't hit on average rolls and for light beasts or jacks several hits from the rest of the unit will do the trick.


I only said light beasts, I didn't include medium infantry, or light jacks. Jacks actually come out a little better on defence then beasts, and a little better on armor. No opponent will mindlessly push models towards your guys to drag in. We can come up with countless scenarios back and forth. My point is they pale when compared to Cetrati.




Sure, because only the single model with the longest threat range matters, right? What's that, some sort of sniped Longgunner with a speed buff? A Mortar being pushed around by a team of Devastators?


Actually I'm pretty sure Long Gunners w/o snipe or a speed buff out threat them, infact all Cygnar ranged troops do. They are very easy to hit and box with a multitude of attacks, despite having 8 wounds.



Perhaps someone has deceived you, but Cetrati aren't ARM 20. They're ARM 16 with an option to go into Shieldwall but when they're doing that they aren't running or charging so I think it's safe to say that it doesn't apply all the time. Even while in shieldwall there are a decent number of models that have Chain Weapon or can attack them in the back arc which ignores the +4 ARM bonus. So do AOEs in their back arc and a variety of spells, as well as continuous effects and various auto-point damage sources.


I think their are a whole 8 or so models/units with chain weapons? The majority of them come from one faction, and one of the beasts with a chain weapon won't see the field much. Shieldwall ia a great order, and ARM 20-21 is where you start hitting the area that armor actually matters. If you are allowing oppenents to get into your back arc that easily then maybe you should address how you are using the Cetrati?



Come on, if the Cetrati are really so obviously and vastly better then surely you can come up with a valid reason why or expose the giant holes in my arguments.

I think you made the arguement for me. . .



-I'd probably take Cetrati as my first pick more than half the time too.
-They're also more reliable, I'm more than happy to agree with that.

and. . .


Arcuarii are only going to reach their full potential if you keep your eye out for potential harpoon situations.


So what happens if you don't get a situation that allows you to use them? Are they a complete waste of points then?

[Keegantir]

You have to keep your mind open when it comes to the Arcurri.

Example:
With Xerxis a line of Cetrati in front of a line of Arcurri. Tyrant Commander gives the Arcurri 2" move, they move 7, Harpoon 8, pull the enemy in, Cetrati charge through Arcurri and wreck what ever was pulled in and is still alive.

With that being said, I wouldn't complain if the Arcurri got a little better.

[TheOrange]

In case anyone missed it:
Wow thanks that's pretty huge. Something that may get reigned in though play testing I'd imagine.

That also increases the threat range of Acurii, just think you can hit someone 15" away AND drag them up to 8" closer to your own army. And if I'm not mistaken you can also use drag to break up shield wall units.

[Keegantir]

Their threat for drags goes up to 17" with Road to War and the Tyrant Commander.

[viperidae99]

Is it still a staple that you charge instead of harpoon nowadays? Still looking at them on paper til my next game, but I'm not so sure with Drag.

Is a STR12+4D6 attack always better, than a STR12+2D6 attack followed up with a STR12+3D6 attack? If it's a high armoured target or you fail to damage, maybe, but I'm not sure always is right. With CRA you can hit at range, with their high MAT you can hit in melee. Why not do both?

Their defence and armour aren't great, but add in the Krea and they're respectable vs shooting. The Krea can also help them drag in and kill light warbeasts without exposing themselves, or heavy warbeasts on the charge.

The key still seems to be protecting them, and the medium base makes that tough. Xerxis will love them as they can shoot and melee through a front line of Cetrati and never be exposed, but in other forces? Try to fit them under a Gobber Cloud? Could be difficult and asking for an AOE. Defender's Ward? Makeda's feat? Maybe. But they're already fearless and don't need Carnage, so they don't benefit as much from her.

Their 8 wounds and a Krea can't hurt I guess.

I'm yet to see whether they're worth their cost or not, and I think the moment they wipe something out from 13+ inches away (Tyrant Commander) they'll become my favourite.

They're the same price as Venators for a full unit and 1pt more for the basic squad. Which do you prefer?

[HannibalTheGreat]

They're the same price as Venators for a full unit and 1pt more for the basic squad. Which do you prefer?
It´s almost self explainatory: I´d always take the Arcuarii if there is no change to the Venators. It´s that simple!

HTG

[Elohel]

Using Xersis as my warlock, i would use both Arcuarii and Cetrati. Like Keegantir said, with marshal discipline, you can move the arcuarii up, harpoon somethign and then have the cetrati charge through them and mop up any survivors.

Possibily the best reason for using the arcuarii is to yank warbeasts out of their controllers range when you are going in to kill the warlock. This will prohibit him from transfering wounds.

Probably the most fun thing will be to drag models off cliffs. I am really looking forward to that.

[Junn Khan]

If anything I think the Centratii might be overpowered now. I wouldn't be too surprised to see the loss of weapon master for the same combat stats as their last incarnation. But all in all I think the Arcuarii are freaking sweet, CRA means a lot to them and honestly if it's a large target I'll probably be charging it rather than shooting it even if it means a trade off.

As to Venators something that needs to be thought about is thier ablity to kill in bursts. I've used them a lot and found that several small CMAs on medium and large based targest generally works out better in teh math department than one big sot. 3-3-4 against medium bases and 5-5 for large bases does the trick for most things in Hordes. They could probably use a point reduction to keep them in line with the Immortals but hey, ranged is a premium for us so we can expect to pay more.

[Pickles]

Arcuarii have a 10 inch threat range on the charge. They have a 13 inch threat range with their harpoons. Obviously if something is in charge range you want them to charge it especially since they have weapon master. So really what we're talking about is that three inch difference in threat range.

My initial thought, without having play tested yet, is that there should be a two point difference between Cetrati and Arcuarii. As I said I play Khador and I love my MOWs. The new Cetrati are like a cross breed of Demo Corps and Shocktroopers. They have the hitting power of MOW DC and the shield wall of MOW ST. The only thing the Cetrati lack in comparison is backswing. I say "only" but that's big of course. However you do get one more man in the unit with Catapracts than you do MOW.

They have 1 more SPD than MOW, always get the extra die of damage (without a * attack), have 1 more DEF, and shield wall. In addition you have a two man unit that can give them 2 inches of movement or pathfinder and oh what I wouldn't give for that. Khador players have been screaming about a UA for MOWs for a long time.

In any case I'll be using both units because the Catapracts are one of the biggest reasons I started Skorne (along with the Titans and the epic, awesome badassery that is Morghul). I love the change to Xerxis' feat and the fact that he can now benefit from Armor of Karrak and has Fury. Either flavor of Cataphracts will hit like a ton of bricks with him.

11 points of cetrati have the hitting power of 9 points of Shocktroopers plus one extra guy. Their base P&S is 11 which is 3 less than the MOW - slightly less than weapon master gives.

They used to be a cheap brick that could eventually whittle away light opposition. Now they are a long way from cheap, though they are admittedly tougher & more damaging to robust things. Just as weak against single wound stuff - worse in fact as you cannot afford as many for the points.

All of the MK2 Multi Wound medium infantry looks too expensive to me starting with MOWs. It would be less of an issue if heavy Jacks were not now the dogs bollocks as low def troopers are their favourite snacks. The shield wall ones are slightly more ribust but good luck killing a heavy that you cant charge with them.

Also boosting offence on the Arcuarii is not so efficient as boosting Ferox, who get almost twice as many attacks & are still more survivable, even with the wound swap, & much faster too. Arcuarii will live or die by whether it's possible to get any use out of Drag.

[Pickles]

[QUOTE=Junn Khan

As to Venators something that needs to be thought about is thier ablity to kill in bursts. I've used them a lot and found that several small CMAs on medium and large based targest generally works out better in teh math department than one big sot. 3-3-4 against medium bases and 5-5 for large bases does the trick for most things in Hordes. They could probably use a point reduction to keep them in line with the Immortals but hey, ranged is a premium for us so we can expect to pay more.[/QUOTE]

You are almost always better off doing Pairs or one huge CRA. The exception comes whan you have capped your to hit against a low armour target when bigger clumps are worthwhile.
(Basically CRA helps if you are increasing both to hit & damage or if the damage is so low you need to combine just to break armour, in which case the bigger the better).

Your examples may well be best in the cases you mention but if one maths is bad one should use pairs of shooters.

[Pickles]

My gut reactions , so you can point at me & laugh when they are proved wrong in playtesting.
I have used 12.5 points for comparison across Mk1-> Mk2 as this is the right number ;). Also Khador references will feature.

Units
Arcuarii
Still too expensive/squishy. Drag looks useful & if it is they may not be too bad.

Cetrati
Buff to damage & wounds useful. Massively more expensive than before (c50%). Their low damage output was excusable at 92 points not sure it is at 11. TBH all medium base multi-wound infantry look too expensive. MOW certainly are ? compare a min unit of DC to Great Bears. Still waiting for a Cataphract UA :).

Immortals
Tyrant
Bloodrunners
Karax
I have not used these in Mk1 ? they seem OK in Mk2. I wish we had more stuff that dealt with undead. Bloodrunners & Karax are a bit vanilla. Tyrant can make trolls cry.

Beasthandlers
:eek:. Very cheap now & better. Pretty much mandatory at that price, even in beast light lists.

Praetorian Ferox
Did well for cavalry. Gained Pathfinder & lost ?leap before moving? & lost an attack on the charge & still cost the same. They look very playable still ? very much like my Uhlans.

Praetorian Swordsmen.
Same old same old but now dirt cheap. Look too cheap but not quite a 5/8 unit. As they are no longer so useful as Guardian fodder :mad:they might be right.
The UA is now cheaper, it?s still a decent but not mandatory one.

Venators
Same old but now even more expensive, which was always an issue. They are perhaps too good for 5/8 but for the same price as a full unit Blighted Nyss get a lot more with their UA. Reeves are in the same boat, though Pygs get the cheap price.

Catapult
Short range low POW Mortar, either of which I can live with. The spare crewman does not really compensate for the range but the blasts are still POW 8. I expect the min range is an error as the Mortar lost it. I am not wholly convinced by mortars in MK2 but that may be the comedown from that ludicrous goodness in Mk1. Catapults are so much £ & so much like Mortars they are pretty low on my want list.

[atis52]

& lost an attack on the charge &

Why ? You couldn't attack with the ferox bite on the charge in Mk1...

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

I at least tried to demonstrate above that the Reivers compare unfavorably with most of their similarily priced competition. 5/5 CRAing still puts them well behind their competition in damage output on large bases. They can plonk medium bases, but in the amount of shots they are likely to get off, I do not foresee them paying for themselves. Reeves, with Dual Shot, Pathfinder and Hunter, might actually be worth 6/10. Perhaps a bit expensive, yes, but they actually have synergy with other Circle models and can put out far more damage than the Reivers can with Dual Shot.


hey could probably use a point reduction to keep them in line with the Immortals but hey, ranged is a premium for us so we can expect to pay more.

The problem is that Reivers had this precice same philosophy in their pricing in Mk1. Without support from the Extoller or eMorghul assasination tricksiness, they were a unit rarely seen because of their price. It would be sad to see that happen again in MK2.

[Keegantir]

Why ? You couldn't attack with the ferox bite on the charge in Mk1...

You couldn't use the bite for the charge attack, but after the charge attack with the spear, you could use the bite for an additional attack. Unless myself any many others have been playing it wrong all this time (including at national tourneys).

[atis52]

I just re-read Combat Rider...my bad :(

[Razhem]

Christ, the Tyrant is sick with that text in press forward, can't see it happening in the final version, or at least not stacking with Road to War. Praetorians running 16" to engage models is already pretty evil and it can only go up from there.

[Cronix]

Christ, the Tyrant is sick with that text in press forward....

If it stays like this i don't mind, but i agree its evil. This unit already gives a movement bonus "pathfinder" and melee buff.

This i like more --> Maybe he must grant something for a ranged unit so that the Venators go from C to B. Something like Rockbottom - Money Shot (different name offcourse).

[cunningweasel]

Having been logged out by the forum before when I went to post this, it didn't work, so here goes...
I'm happy with how the Arcuarii turned out, their ranged attack can now hit reliably thanks to CRA. Then the bonus of Drag letting a dude make an attack afterward is sweet, not to mention getting something in charge range of your other stuff and keeping the punctured victim away from his control area. They sound as fun as they were always meant to be with the benefit of it actually being able to happen now.

Sure the Cetrati got buffed too, with the Weapon Master, but if it wasn't for that I think people would be stoked at the outcome. I am pleased how good the Cetrati got, but the fact that I got want I wanted from the Arcuarii will make me use them. For there to be no issues the Cetrati should have stayed the same but been given the same cost as the Arcuarii, 7/10. Mind you having more Weapon Master makes me happy, which was the main reason I took the Arcuarii to begin with.

[whatyoutalkinboutwillis]

Dboeren the real issue with your argument is that Drag isn't going to succeed as often as you would like. Drag needs to damage to do its thing. Mat 5 pow 12 drag vs. def 12 armor 17 mean you have a 58% chance to hit followed by a 72% chance to damage which means you really only have a 41% chance of success. It gets significantly worse vs. higher armor or higher defense very quickly.

[goreshde]

How often does a MAT 7 Weaponmaster need to CMA? I'm OK without that. Shieldwall is nice, no argument there, but it does cost SPD when you use it and the Arcuarii will be more mobile and have a longer threat range. I think it's relatively fair but of course it needs testing to really tell.

A lot actually. Every time you go for a caster/lock kill you will want to use CMA. Against casters espeically is is imporatn to get 2-3 good hits on. I want to make sure I can guanrty those hits. CMA can help that, and that is what wins games. They are so surviable right now that I do think they are credible for a late game threat against a caster/lock.

Really against anything with Def 14 or higher I would CMA in a heart beat. Reach with a CMA is an incredible tool. There are also spells like Enliven, armor 21+ jacks that you wont always be able to get the charge off on but still want to damage, and other places in this game where CMA would be incredible.

[Keegantir]

And significantly better when you add a model or two to the CRA.

[SaltyBob]

Initial thoughts on our new look units.

Cataphract Arcuarii: Expensive, but CRA and an extra attack after the drag might be exactly what these guys needed. They are still squishy, but 8 wounds should go a long way to making them more survivable. Not a staple unit, but good with certain casters. B

Cataphract Cetrati: These guys changed a lot actually. They went from a cheap unit to anchor your army with. To an expensive unit that dishes out damage. They seem to be overly expensive, but they are the same price as the Man O War Stormtroopers. 8 wound infantry just is expensive.

I think I liked them better the other way. Lose Weapon Master and give them back Set Defense and Brutal Charge. They do hit like a ton of bricks now, but it sort of takes away some of the uniqueness of the Arcuarii. B

Immortals: Way better than the old version. Only SPD 4 is their only drawback. But with Vengeance and Resonance they do have a natural way of compensating for that. For 5/8 they certainly do a lot of killing and have good stats. B+

Paingiver Bloodrunners: Stayed the same. The new unit formation rules should give Shadow Play a huge boost though. Too bad Xerxis lost Merciless Assault. They are an almost perfect specialist unit vs 1 wound infantry. A

Paingiver Beast Handlers: The same but better and cheaper. Our only auto include. A+

Praetorian Ferox: Mostly stayed the same, only loosing their extra order and the bite attack on the charge. Gained Pathfinder though. Very powerful with certain warlocks, but not auto include. B+

Praetorian Karax: Initially I was very impressed by these guys. Cheap reach + CMA troops. Then I noticed that they lost Set Defense and I was sad. Ranked Attack is only situationaly useful to the Skorn army, since we don't have a lot of shooting to take advantage of it.

Girded is very nice with the new unit formation and Shield Wall. But all in all they seem to have lost more than they gained. C+

Praetorian Swordsmen: Our go too cheap unit. They can be useful in many situations and are stupid cheap now. Not overpowered, since they still die easily and are only POW 9/12 with MAT 6. B+

Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard: Well officers have become a lot easier to kill now, with no screening. Perfect Strike and Overtake are quite good, but I'm not sure if we have as many combos to make it disgusting. Good with a few warlocks, I'm not planning on taking them every time though. C+

Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer: Borderline broken with the new wording on Press Forward and the new unit rules + fearless. You can now have this guy hang out in your deployment zone with a single model from a unit and still provide the entire unit with fearless and a nice buff of your choice. To top it all off, if you want to, the Tyrant is bad a*s in combat. A+

Venator Reivers: Stayed the same in all ways. So basically without the old Extoller Soulward or the Drake they won't see much use. Their basic stats are fine, although they did lose a point in MAT, but Skorn doesn't do ranged all that well. So basically overpriced for their faction. C

Venator Catapult Crew: Sigh, I still would never consider using this thing. It is now only a poor man's version of the Mortar. No unique capabilities, nothing Skorn like about it. 3 points will always be better spend elsewhere. D

Well that's it, overall I'm cautiously optimistic about how the end book will look. A few tweaks and we should have a solid army again. Not overpowering but just solid when working together.

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

(Cataphract Cetrati)
I think I liked them better the other way. Lose Weapon Master and give them back Set Defense and Brutal Charge. They do hit like a ton of bricks now, but it sort of takes away some of the uniqueness of the Arcuarii.

Heavens no. The old Cetrati got to choose between going on in one round blaze of glory (or rather, the round after the charge) or dying the slow death of a thousand cuts. You could of course pour buffs onto them: Diminish, Defender's Ward, Paralytic Aura: but then they would occupy resources grossly out of scale to their offensive potential and were not difficult to circumvent as you bricked up half your army around them.

The New Cetrati have offensive potential without the charge (the old Cetrati hit about as hard as the Praetorians when they weren't charging, for Duff's sake) and are just as offensive as the old ones on the charge (on average rolls). In addition, they can survive charging and can brick up better on their own. Yes please. Good call on PP's part.

The Arcuarii, rather than being so overprized only enthusiasts used them before, now have a finicky and interesting role as they traded a practically useless ranged ability for an interesting and useful one. Yes, they are more expensive than their nearest paralell unit (Gorilla Boarding Party) but they hit much harder (if they actually hit and damage with those harpoons the damage will be (12+3d6)x2 rather than (13+2d6)x2 - average damage output 23 x 2 vs 20 x2: that makes a lot of difference when engaging the light warthings and medium inf they're intended to wreck.

[Scalpel]

I played 2 games last night with the Arcuarii and they are still confussed.

Do PP want them to be a Ranged Unit with Drag ... or a is the Harpoon just there because the model looks like it has it ?

Last night I had 4 of them vs Slaugterborn & 10 Bloodgogers.

He also had 2 Chickens, Skarre, Full Mech Thralls, and a Reaper.


At one point Slaughterborn was in a wood, so I used 3 of them to CRA (one was engaged - stupid reach) ...

RAT 5 + 3 CRA = needed a 6 still ... failed ofc.

Now I could have used these guys to kill some Bloodgogers, but I did want to kill him first.

2nd Game I took the Tyrant, and something simlar happened ... but instead I cleared the parth for one Arcuarii to get a charge path ... gave them +2" movement, and charge him to kill him dead with 1 model.


Now the first game I really only did it to try it out, more than anything.


But this is the Arcuarii's problem.

If they are within 8" so you can Aim to get RAT 5+2 ... then unless you can't .. charge it!

If they are within 12" (SPD 5 + 8" Move), give them +2" Movement and Charge them!

If they are 12.1" + then either try the shot.

The problem is that either they are :-

a. A +1 P+S Cetrati Unit that have less ARM and a point cheaper.
Or
b. A Melee Unit that has an ok Ranged Attack with Poor RAT.

----------------------

I've had a good talk last night and think this mornging .... how about this :-


They lose the Ranged Attack ... bye ... gone ... cya!
Lets be honest here, it was never that great in MK1, in Mk2 you can't debuff or move a Large Base, and we are paying more for a unit with Gun that we won't use as much as the Melee Weapon.

This means they are now a focused melee unit, so can come down in cost - maybe something like 6/9.

They lose Weapon Master .... wait don't kill me yet.

They gain Chain Strike (4" Reach on Charge).


The reason for this is to firstly get rid of that ranged attack, which while I agree was nice in few cases, overall it wasn't going to be used if you could charge something. In addition you need to make them different to the Cetrati, so you don't just go .. ermm +1 P+S or +1/5 ARM hmmm, so now you have 2 units that perform totaly different rolls on the table top.


Thoughts ?

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

The same applied to Cetrati in Mk1: they were far better chargers than shooters. The new Drag could solve that, as their damage output against models with ARM in the 15-17 range (most medium inf and lights) is higher if it kicks in:

POW12+2d6 + ((POW12+3d6)x2) = (average) 19+23x2, vs
POW12+4d6 = 26

...this means a single Arcuarii can dish out 15 points of damage to a DEF 12 ARM16 model with drag, if it rolls average rolls, against a "mere" 10 on the charge.

The kicker is the low RAT, and to some extent the low POW of the ranged harpoon. Your chances of &/%¤ing it up during the first and second steps of the attack (ranged to hit, ranged damage) are perhaps too great - there are two conditions, hit and wound, that needs to kick in for the attack to function, CRA excepted. This especially applies to the ranged attack.

Your idea is interesting, but the ungodly threat range they'd get under Road to War and Press Forward: 5+2+2+3+4= 16", possibly chain weapon, might perhaps be too great for a medium based MAT7 POW12 unit...imagine the carnage when coupled with Fury and Xerxis' feat in 2-warlock games. Threat range 16" unit with MAT7, POW12+3+4d6 on the charge, average damage 29 per model, potentially 39 per model - enough to total most lights and some lighter heavy 'beasts, or warlocks, 16" inches away.

Said damage output is nasty enough when Xerxis and/or eMakeda sends the current Arcuarii or Cetrati out on the charge (better, in fact, because of Weapon master)...but those extra 2"...it would be like giving Long Gunners Brutal Shot.

For game balance's sake I'd like to see either a RAT (possibly?) or a range (not likely) increase (so they can Aim), if the Arcuarii's ranged attack turn out to be as iffy as they used to be on the board. I love the rules effects of Drag. They just need to work. And we don't have Cryx' DEF-debuffing on units...it would be sad to see the Arcuarii reduced to just sniping at lights. Their 5+2Press Forward 2"+Road to War+8" = 17" Ranged Drag threat (vs 5+2+2+3+2=14" melee range under the same conditions) could be a lot of fun against lists with lots of Md based models that try to stay away.

[Cronix]

They gain Chain Strike (4" Reach on Charge).


Thoughts ?

Me like!!.

What about giving them 2 (*) attacks:
(*) attack: Chain Strike - Model gains 4" Reach.
(*) attack: Back Swing - Model gains an additional melee attack.

I know Rebuke will kill them but how many warcasters/warlocks have access to shut down (*) attacks. eStyker, eSeverius, Harbinger and Titan Gladiator "Subdue".

They als need a def abilty Defensive Line would be perfect for these guys.

[Helion]

You forgot Sevvy. ;)

Anyway, I like the idea of the Arcuarii. in the beginning, Skorne units were supposed to be representative of combat tactics not often, if ever, seen in the rest of Immoran. thus you have the basic troops with 2 attacks and auto damage on beasts/jacks, the Spd 5 shieldwalling brutal chargers, the sado-masochists who control the heavy artillery, and the crappy ranged support that has a cool if ineffective perk. Arcuarii are supposed to bring the battle to you on your own terms. Granted, drag wasn't new, but it wasn't on anything like a medium base unit of weapon masters. I like the addition of the melee attack after the drag, it's a good idea. What we need now is a reason to use our ranged units. Like snipe. Or ANYTHING that boosts our chance to hit besides CRA. If we get that in spades like we got terrain denial in Meta, then I'll be the first to use an Arcuarii, Venator themed list.

[Scalpel]

...this means a single Arcuarii can dish out 15 points of damage to a DEF 12 ARM16 model with drag, if it rolls average rolls, against a "mere" 10 on the charge..
The problem is you need to CRA to stand a good chance of hitting them, with 4 of them you can CRA 2 of them for RAT 5+2, ... drag it then make 1 melee attack. The other 2 can then make 1 melee attack against it too.

So in effect with 4, you get 1 P+S 12+2 (CRA), and 3 P+S 12 with Weapon master.

Ofc if you miss that first attack, then the damage drops rapidlly. Use all 4 to CRA and you only get 1 Melee Attack ... and god help you if your 7pt unit misses a 4 man CRA.

Why chance any of that when most times you can charge it and hit it with 4 MAT 7 P+S 12 +4D6 damage attacks ?


What about giving them 2 (*) attacks:
(*) attack: Chain Strike - Model gains 4" Reach.
(*) attack: Back Swing - Model gains an additional melee attack.

Well doesn't hurt to suggest and test, however I'd rather have a mid-priced unit that another top end expensive one ... with flexabilty comes cost ;)

The main problem I see with my Idea, is what PP's design focus was for these ... if they "have" to have the Ranged Harpoon, then my suggestion is dead in the water, and we are back at losing something to make the ranged gun be more reliable, a points hike, or just leaving them as they are ... and therefore on the shelf for me :(

[Cronix]

The main problem I see with my Idea, is what PP's design focus was for these ... if they "have" to have the Ranged Harpoon, then my suggestion is dead in the water, and we are back at losing something to make the ranged gun be more reliable, a points hike, or just leaving them as they are ... and therefore on the shelf for me :(

Or introduce the Ambuscade order again, Bloodtrackers and War Spears (Legion unit) will be happy again.

Make the Cetrati cheaper by dropping Weaponmaster give them back natural POW 12, Brutal charge and set defensive. They supose to be a meat shield. lower the points by 2 and increase the points of the Arcuarii by 2 and make them broken (jk).

Cataphract Arcuarii
SPD 5 STR 7 MAT 7 RAT 5 DEF 12 ARM 15 CMD 9

FA: 2
Point Cost:
Leader & 3 Grunts: 9
Leader & 5 Grunts: 12
Base Size: Medium
Damage: 8

LEADER & GRUNTS

Order: Ambuscade ? unit may advance +3? directly towards a target model, while making a ranged against target model, model gains +2 on the attack damage roll.
Combined Ranged Attack
Defensive Line - While this model is B2B with one or more models in its unit, it gains +2 ARM.
Fearless


WEAPONS [LEADER & GRUNTS]

Harpoon [1x] (None) RNG: 8 ROF: 1 AOE: - POW: 12
Drag - If this weapon damages an enemy model with an equal or smaller base, immediately after the attack is resolved the damaged model can be pushed any distance directly toward this model. After the damaged model is moved, this model can make one normal melee attack against the model pushed. After resolving this melee attack, this model can make additional melee attacks during its combat action.

Arcus [1x] (None) POW: 5 P+S: 12
Backswing (* Attack) - Make two attacks with this weapon.

[Helion]

As an aside, Why aren't the Harpoons thrown? Not that it would make any difference, in damage or anything, but it has always struck me as odd that they are not. Do they have a launcher off some kind? I don't own any so I don't know...

[atis52]

In past millennia the arcus was a simpler hurled weapon attached to a tether. They were refined by the construction of small but extremly strong crossbow mechanisms integrated into each weapon's shaft. This enables the heavy bladed head of the harpoon to be fired at tremendous force and suprising range, and it reels out a length of chain.
Hordes Primal, p.139 :)