Save my Players...

[NoGas]

Gladly, none of my PCs read this forum.

So, I have a crew of ne'er-do-wells running around Corvis (my beloved city). They're a group of mercenaries that have been hired by the Fraternal Brotherhood, who have been asked by the Illuminated to track down some mysterious incidences in Corvis that could involve infernalism or a darker shade of the magical scheme.

So far they have gotten very little information, as they are terrible at asking the proper questions, I practically have to hold their hand and guide them around the city for their lack of direction. They finally found a vendor of ill-gotten gains who dwells in the slummier districts of Corvis. Upon finding him, he offers that they buy some of his wares before he opens his mouth. After the gunmage buys some ammunition, he realizes that the charges are busted. Angered, he draws a gun on the merchant, and starts making threats. The merchant runs, and starts screaming for help. Some folks who are associates of said "merchant" come out with swords and crossbows, fight ensues. Now they seek to track down the merchant.

The PCs soon find friends of the merchant fellow, a couple who is due to be married. They immediately jump to the immitadation skill and start making threats. Fantastic. After the man of the household repeatedly asks for them to leave, he claims that he is going to call the guard. The gunmage (friendly bloke that he is) jumps in front of the door and pulls a gun (again) on the man and fires a warning shot. In response, the man pulls out a dagger and stabs at the gunmage, feeling incredibly worried for the safety of his soon-to-be wife. He is immediately slaughtered. As the crying woman stands over her deceased fiance, she has her throat slit. Wonderful.

Unfortuntely for my PCs, folks outside hearing the argument and the shots fired have grabbed some patrolling enforcers, who have begun to storm the building. The party complies, being caught with low ammo and unloaded weaponry. They are now in prison. They have a trial pending.

I have been told by one that I am being rather unfair, and that I didn't give them an opportunity to save themselves. Call me a heartless GM, but I decided to remind them that everyone that they have been tracking down for info in this area of the city, they have pulled a gun on. They have murdered in cold blood when things haven't gone their way, and they have threatened a man whom they bought items from when he asked to be payed for his info via his dubious goods. I decided a slap of the law will take this over-the-top murderfest down a peg. But how the hell do they stand in a trial in which they most likely have no chance?

[SkaliSharpnose]

Well, first of all, their chance to save themselves was BEFORE they murdered an innocent couple in the middle of the day with a noisy weapon.

As for the trial, since they seem to be pretty much hardcore criminals, it's time to call in any favors they can and bribe the everloving crap out of the judge and related officials. Punishment for murder is imprisonment or death, but you might get an amoral judge to rule it was self defense (LOTS of gold). Give you guys hard labor, maybe, OR, as an alternative, maybe a short prison sentence (two months in a high security place) wherein you make some contacts along the lines of your quest.

You're looking for information on nasty types, it's possible they have people in the prison system from whom you could get information.

Your other option would be breaking out, but this makes it difficult to operate in the city, or cygnar in general if you make enough of a ruckus.

[Whimper]

Definitely do not give them a soft judge, greedy guards, or a forgiving public. They should be hated villains in Corvis for years to come, and known for their heinous crime.

The punishment for murder in Corvis is death, and only death. No soft sentences, and the trial would likely be a brief formality.

I think your PCs heads are going to be on the chopping block. Personally, I think the consequences should be severe and realistic, but it is a fantasy game after all, so you might consider the following:

1. They fight their way out of a public execution. Should result in TPK, but you never know. If the characters survive, they are now DM-controlled villains. Roll new characters.
2. Criminal overlord saves their ***** for a fee. They are now an evil NPC party working for the bad guys. Roll new characters.
3. Have an infernal show up to make some tempting offers.

Honestly, if it were me DM'ing things, I would let them know exactly how they ended up in their predicament, then kill their ***** dead. Roll again.

[Iluzagin]

They messed up, totally, so let them know the consequences of doing evil deeds. Let them run the gauntlet of justice.

You can either do as Whimper sugests, kill them as retributuion for being murderers. Do this if they'd accept it and then roll new characters.

Or, you could make that Cygnar is in need of every living being (the war going on and such), so wasting able bodies is not the way. You could then sentence them to hard labour in the mines (possibilities of subteranean encounters making the story go on), or send them to a penal legion which is used for (near) suicide missions into difficult terrain against overwhelming odds. Both give a lot of options for a continuation of the campaign.

For both options it would still be neccessary to make them vilains in the eyes of the people of Corvis. So, if they escape and return to Corvis, they'll have a problem with everyone.

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Zagin

[Ulf]

If you think they'd take the hint, you could try to illustrate the long-term consequences of the decisions they've made, and skip the trial altogether.

Maybe have a fellow prisoner offer them a way out. But make this guy a really dirty, evil scumbag. Helpful, but really obviously evil and cut-throat. Have him tell the PCs that he heard about what they did, and he likes their style, and they can come with him when his Thamarite pals show up to stage his jailbreak in a few days.

If the PCs take him up on it, have the NPC rescuers cold-bloodedly slit throats and garrote guards who could easily be by-passed without incident on their way out of the jail. Just for the thrill of it. If the PCs object, have the NPCs scoff & laugh it off, like "yeah, right... now you grow a conscience... we heard about why you're in here. We're not that different."

Maybe the NPCs have already killed the judge and his/her family, since this is the same judge that was going to preside over their friend's trial. If the PCs grow a pair and decide to do the right thing, they can always take down their would-be rescuers and turn them over to the watch. Have it turn out that the NPC prisoner was some sort of infamous killer or thamarite cult-leader. Maybe that earns them a pardon, or leniency of some kind for their own crimes.

I did something similar once a few years back with a party, and once they saw that they were acting the way villains tend to act, they turned their role-playing around. Plus, I got to use the gang of villains as recurring NPCs down the road.

[Oldgrue]

This murderfactory probably should have had a good long look at their alignments some time ago. The synopsis here seems to be a band of neutral/chaotic evil members anyway.

They did this to themselves. Feed them to the Devilsquid.

There of course is the option to take this splatter(steam?)punk game in an interesting direction:

Draft them.
They want to kill willy-nilly, fine. GTFO of Cygnar. Set them on a clipper to Blackwater and let them whinge about the unfair and deadly Blackwater until they catch on this wasn't supposed to be a murder simulator.

[moorg]

It's probably in their best interest to leave Corvis very quickly.

Leave hints that their alignment has changed. Have a patrol find them that has a Precursor Knight with them. The Precursor claims that he detects strong evil from the Gun Mage. At this point if there's any Morrowan priests or Paladins in the party, they should have lost their power.

Then have someone lend aid to them by aiding their escape. They of course find themselves drafted by some kind of underworld figure that they can not defeat. Be it a priest of Thamar, or someone working for one of the High Captains that's been doing some work outside of Five Fingers, or something of the like. They help the party escape, but at a cost of course.

Or that's where I'd start going with it.

[KrielMaster]

yeah, they're evil, all right.
I'd kill the lot of them. {or at least the one's who used weapons in the double-murder wedding day massacre.}
Drowning, I believe is the way they do it in Corvis.
You've been called unfair, eh? How was this rationalised exactly? No-one pulled a gun on them first, and if your player's answer to any resistance to their every whim or desire is 'pull a gun' then they obviously have failed to grasp the fact that the rule of Law is in effect {during daylight, under observation, and in a major city, at least.} I try to make sure my players comprehend that most of the Kingdoms have weapon control laws. This gets the message across pretty well that acting like you're on the lowest level of the Tomb of Horrors whilst buying an apple is a Bad Plan?.
Time for a re-roll, and perhaps a mutual read through of the "Crime and Punishment" chapter. Use hand outs.
The 'soft options' of Forced Draft/Suicide Mission, Welcome to Blackwater, you live here now., or the Thamarite Prison Break Show seem too likely to allow the possibility of misunderstanding the valuable lesson here.
If you absolutely feel that you must let them live, it's of course your game, your choice... perhaps that forced service comes AFTER the 'Death Sentence' is carried out? Let them nearly drown, roll it let them understand that they caused this to happen to themselves... then, as they fade to black... a snatch from the bottom of the river via diving bell? A little involuntary cosmetic surgery and spell, and to enforce the Uncle Rebald owns you now? Don't forget to reenforce that this is NOT you 'railroading them'... this is their actions having consequences... be sure and drop hints about the nice easy quests and fat loots you wrote up, but they didn't let you run that did they?

[Oldgrue]

The Thamarite Prison Break Show - is that the one with transvestite Cyrissists, or mechanikal variety shows?

"Uncle Rebald" and "welcome to Blackwater" could combine nicely!

Or, if you're nice you could have an iron lich dredge them up and give them what they want: a Cryx terror troupe running amok on the mainland for as long as they can.

[KrielMaster]

The Thamarite Prison Break Show - is that the one with transvestite Cyrissists, or mechanikal variety shows?

"Uncle Rebald" and "welcome to Blackwater" could combine nicely!

Or, if you're nice you could have an iron lich dredge them up and give them what they want: a Cryx terror troupe running amok on the mainland for as long as they can.

See, Grue... this is why I get into trouble... {ok I admit I was going to put 'sex' there in strikeouts, but I couldn't find the button, errr thought better of it}

The 'now you're undead and get to run amok' method strikes me as a reward for these players, and theoretically we're not just trying to build better miscreants, we're trying to run a good, fun game in our favourite setting. Which has rules and laws and all sorts of great details. I'm not not not going to beat the Great Drum of Canon here.
But No Gas, my friend, you almost have to kill them. I suggest just until mostly dead. They have definitely gone over to "evil" on the fun-metre but they can fix it. Maybe. I mean really? Really? Double Murder? Wedding day?! Did the Gun Mage player laugh at any time? seriously, I'm asking. No I'm not going to go all That Dude is Sick self-righteous, I've run my share of seriously screwed up characters and love the RP as catharsis thing all to bitty pieces, but you do that understanding that it's either a wacky romp making goblin severed head puppets, or the party tries to do some good at least... you can't have it both ways. If your Gun Murde...Mage laughed, and then called unfair play? No breaks, IMO. If he never, ever, ever stops RPing the guilt and quest for atonement, he gets to live and maybe keep his soul.

[NoGas]

Right now I'm strongly considering trying to save the group, if only to give some sort of compensation to the hours of time I spent writing this damn thing. A note to all players out there: your GM probably spent a good deal of time trying to construct a world for you to tool around and run amok in. At least try not to tear it apart; it is their brainchild.

But I am considering sending a member of the Illuminated to spring them from jail and order them to finish the mission. If not, he will execute them personally. If they fail the mission, yet survive, they will still be turned over to the Corvis authorities for proper punnishment. Either way, the time that they are forced to spend stewing in jail will allow the cult movements in Corvis to spread rapidly, making things much more difficult in terms of stopping the cult. Also, they are going to have an even more difficult time trying to get any help from local citizens as complete pariahs of the city. The agent, who I have yet to invent, will follow the team around at a slight distance, and will enter any buildings that they enter; unless he can easily monitor the PCs from the outside. He will act as a moral enforcer. The Illuminated will not tolerate that kind of behavior; they will chalk their murderous rampaged up to the misanthropic mind of a mercenary, and give them a second chance.

But thank you all for your input. And if they continue to screw this up, they hang. I would say that this has given me one thing above all else: peace of mind that I am not a cruel and railroading GM.

[Killj0y]

Throw them under a bus. Or at least one of them. Talk a couple of the party members into saying that it was all the gun mage's idea and that he's a crazy sorcerer who forced them to follow him.

Gun mage gets the noose for his misdeeds and the rest of the party gets the evil eye and maybe run out of town on a rail. Party saved, lesson learned.

[Jumbley]

Yikes.

I'd say that its worth being thorough about getting this sort of expectation across beforehand. I wouldn't call my players skilled roleplayers by any means, but they've got enough common sense to realize that violence is rewarded with violence. Before any campaign I run, I'll always level with them to make sure they know what I have in mind and that I know what they have in mind. That way I can make a fun campaign for them, and they know how to behave without breaking the setting!

That doesn't really help your situation though, so I'll give a proper response. I like the Thamarite prison break, but just try and figure out what they're looking for from a continued campaign... otherwise they'll be *joining* the cult and garroting guards and babies and newlyweds and what have you!

[The_Gun_Nut]

Sell them down the river. Seriously. Introduce them to Bubba.

I'm sure someone will complain. You could always just ask them what would happen if player A went to one of those small vendors in the middle of the mall, bought some cheap crap, then shot the guy for selling him cheap crap. Ask them, in a completely innocent tone of voice, "Can you tell me if someone like, say, the police, might get mad?"

If some wit says "But this is a game" then a good response may be "a game with cops in it."

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

[Oldgrue]

I run a very sandbox game because I like to turn the wheels in the background.
"Ya know, this might not be the best idea (insert 5 minute doug impersonation here)" If they go ahead with their plan, its on their heads.

As long as I can keep my players in the dark that most of this is off the cuff, and I bang out notes while we play my ego gets the stroke when I steal their ideas openly. "Hah! we figured you out!" indeed.

Yes, it might be more of a reward in the short term. Think for a moment the difficulties an undead terror team might have...and then that players might justify the trouble they're having:

"We're the good guys"
"Um, hello. Undead. Your gods aren't talking to you."
"oh."
"and if you had a warjack with a chaingun you'd shoot the undead wizard first right?"
"Yeah."
"So about that armor class..."
"Oh! Ow."

Or I've got a sadistic streak and want them to squirm....

[Loitering, Inc.]

I'm going to have to break with pretty much everyone in this thread, and tell you it's time to take it out of game. And by that I mean you need to sit down with your players and find out what kind of game THEY want. And if it doesn't line up with the game YOU want, call the whole thing off. I don't think the problem is your players need their hands held, I have a feeling the problem is they want one thing, and you are trying to deliver another. Neither of you are wrong per say (no badwrongfun here), just looking for different things out of the game. You don't want your hard work wasted, and they don't want to spend the evening playing look for clues. I learned a long time ago, if my players and my interest don't align, don't force it. Pick a different game/genre/group. No gaming beats BAD gaming.

[Killj0y]

I am going to give a bit of support to Loitering's idea here. It does sound like you've got some communications issues with some of the party members. It also sounds like they are a little immature or in need of an adult rp experience but that isn't something you can force on someone.

Having just recently removed myself and 20 or so of my closest friends from a bad game I can sympathize. Our situations were reversed, bad GM and good players but the concept is the same.

he wasn't willing to run the kind of game everyone could tolerate and we weren't willing to wait while he got his act together.

Consider how you got your party into this situation. Were they really dense or is perhaps the series of clues simply too obscure for what you're trying to do?

I once tried to run an espionage game with a group of people who weren't really into deep plots. The wheels within wheels frustrated them as it felt like they could never get anything done and the plots were going over their heads. I in turn didn't feel like tipping my hand and letting them run roughshod over my carefully crafted intrigues.

So it becomes more in line of do you react to what they are doing or do you present them with options and roll with how they see the world.

I've had some pretty fun games where the gm let people get away with murder it just has to be understood that you're playing in that kind of world before you break a bunch of taboos and get your character off'ed.

[Jumbley]

@Loitering, Killjoy

Hear hear. OOG solutions unite!

[Kaptain Von]

Another point for the out-of-game solution. You've written something that doesn't suit them. They've turned into sociopaths because it's a fictional world. Discussion of what all parties want out of a game before the game is plotted out avoids that.

From where you are, I think just stopping the game, having that discussion and starting over with something you and your players are all interested in and capable of doing is the best way to ensure that you actually have fun. Yes, it'll waste all the work you spent on your exquisitely plotted story, but a) pressing on with an inappropriate group will make all that work seem in vain, will not be enjoyable for anyone, and basically will be an even bigger waste and b) I honestly think that if your plot matters that much to you, you would have been better off writing a long piece of fanfiction rather than exposing it to the differing goals and agendas and styles of other people.

[KrielMaster]

Oh, I'm sorry- I assumed you had already HAD the Out Of Game talk. I have one after every session, more or less. The reason I thought you did this is, you said the at least one of the player 'called you out'. To me this meant a detailed conversation about nuts and bolts, player thoughts and feeling and all that nasty stuff behind the curtain. Am I wrong? { Not trying to be snippy- I am asking in effort to understand first hand how other DM's run their games }

[allistorpreist]

I agree with the above posters about the out of game talk.

Tell the players what you want out of them and find out what they want out of the game. Sort out if the party should be saved before deciding how to save them.

It sounds like you want the PCs to be at least a little heroic, it sounds like they want to be big bad and scary, there is a comprimise there somewhere. If not, scrap the game.

If you do decide to save them, I like the last chance from the crown. Not as punishment, but as a second chance.

Rebald or one of his agents approaches them. They are murderers, but skilled ones. The CRS can arrange a release, but the locals will be looking for an excuse to lock them up again.

Show the CRS that they can 1) finish the mission they were on and 2) not make any more of a mess of it and they will not be recaptured and stiched up for some other capital crime. Of course they will owe the CRS a BIG favor and if they don't repay, well their death sentence was just delayed then wasn't it? Oh, and should they fail or commit other crimes, the CRS will disavow any knowledge of thier actions.

But here is the real catch.


If the players go back to thier murdering ways don't bother killing them off, stop the game. It is not the game you want to run.
If the players finish the mission without nastying it up, then they continue as is, but somewhere you send them on the scary as crap mission for the CRS.
And, most importantly, if they start playing characters you want to run for, reward them. If they bargain instead of threaten, give them bonuses. If they avoid collateral damage, extra treasure. Make your world reward the playstyle you want.
That is my take anyways.

[Galleon]

They finally found a vendor of ill-gotten gains who dwells in the slummier districts of Corvis. Upon finding him, he offers that they buy some of his wares before he opens his mouth. After the gunmage buys some ammunition, he realizes that the charges are busted. Angered, he draws a gun on the merchant, and starts making threats. The merchant runs, and starts screaming for help. Some folks who are associates of said "merchant" come out with swords and crossbows, fight ensues. Now they seek to track down the merchant.

The PCs soon find friends of the merchant fellow, a couple who is due to be married. They immediately jump to the immitadation skill and start making threats. Fantastic. After the man of the household repeatedly asks for them to leave, he claims that he is going to call the guard. The gunmage (friendly bloke that he is) jumps in front of the door and pulls a gun (again) on the man and fires a warning shot. In response, the man pulls out a dagger and stabs at the gunmage, feeling incredibly worried for the safety of his soon-to-be wife. He is immediately slaughtered. As the crying woman stands over her deceased fiance, she has her throat slit. Wonderful.

Unfortuntely for my PCs, folks outside hearing the argument and the shots fired have grabbed some patrolling enforcers, who have begun to storm the building. The party complies, being caught with low ammo and unloaded weaponry. They are now in prison. They have a trial pending.


Sounds to me like you kinda set them up to fail. You had your " merchant " sell bad goods to a hot head on purpose knowing he going to get pissed off and threaten him. Then you had the guy run instead of defusing the situation and had his goons jump your party.

This guy wouldnt be in business to long , no one is going to buy stuff from a guy who is looking to screw his customers. Word spreads fast. This guy is also , by your admition , dealing with infernals or atleast has info on whats going on with them. Then later after they track his friends down you stick a " innocent " couple with them on purpose to bait them into do something about it and have the guy stab one of your pcs. What did you think was going to happen. Then after the predictable thing happens in come the gaurds.

It seems to me like you wanted your pcs to fail. The gunmage over reacted to being ripped off but what did you think was going to happen , did you think it was going to be " these dont work , thank you for screwing me over can you please take the rest of my money too?"

From what I saw it went like this.
1.hot head gunmage walks into store knowing this guy deals with infernals or know who does.
2. gunmage gets ripped off , pissed off and threatens guy for info
3. guy runs and trys to get goons to kill party
4. party tracks down his friends thinking they will know where thier only lead flead too
5. Through in "innocent couple " , its in quotes because they really arent if they are hanging out with the bad guys ,are either in on it or dont care that thier friends are evil either way they get whats soming to them soon.
6. Arguement insues and you have the npc husband do the complete rational thing in this situation. stab the hothead pc who has a gun pointed at you instead of giving him what he wants.
7. in strolls the ever predictable guards


edit - are we talking about the same covis. city of ghosts. the corvas where the corrupt live and bodies turn up all the time?

[KrielMaster]

Hey Grue- tried to include you in a PM about that last one... {22} you're not set to receive PMs?

[Munindk]

How about turning it into a military campaign? They sound like the perfect candidates for a tour in the Cygnaran Foreign Legion, stationed somewhere in the Bloodstone Marches.
With the Skorne on the warpath, they should have their hands full, you could throw in some Protectorate forces into the mix too, for variation?

[Whimper]

Galleon, I think your post reflects a view of the IK I don't fully understand. Going through your list, let's present each point as a choice for someone to make.

1. A hot headed gun mage walks into store, knowing the merchant either deals with infernals or might know who does.

PC choice: confront merchant directly, or spy on him.
GM choice: how will the merchant react to being pressed for info?

2. The gun mage is sold shoddy merchandise, as part of a bribe process.

PC Choice: Accept the bum goods, return them, or draw weapon and make threats.
GM Choice: how will the merchant react to having a weapon brandished at him with death threats?

3. The merchant flees, crying for help. Help arrives in the form of armed goons.

PC choice: leave, fight soft, or fight hard (killing everyone involved).
GM choice: how willing to die are these goons? Should the PCs get another chance to talk?

4. The PCs track down some friends of the merchant.

PC choice: spy on, bribe, or intimidate the young couple.
GM choice: how will the NPCs react to the above methods?

Aside, edited for spelling:
Throw in an "innocent couple"-- it's in quotes because they really aren't innocent if they are hanging out with the bad guys. They are either in on it, or don't care that their friends are evil. Either way, they get what's coming to them soon.

I fundamentally disagree with this statement in just about every way. If you think that anybody who has ever had connections with someone 'bad' deserves gruesome death, you and I will never see eye to eye on roleplaying games.

6. The NPCs respond poorly to intimidation, becoming frightened and hostile. The man attacks.

PC Choice: Subdue him, flee the scene, or kill everyone there.
GM Choice: Do the NPCs fear for their lives? Will they act accordingly? Is this a neighborhood where gunfights might draw Watch attention?

7. Guards arrive.

PC Choice: Submit, fight, talk/bribe/intimidate, or flee.
GM Choice: Do the guards have any reason to let the PCs go?


Galleon, I don't believe that the GM in this case was baiting the players, or leading them astray. They had multiple, multiple opportunities to "do the right thing" and at every step of the way they botched it. Here, look at some choices they could have made:

1. Use guile or magic to spy on the merchant.
2. Bribe the merchant for info, and don't pull a gun on him.
3. Chase the merchant instead of killing his goons.
4. Use guile or magic to spy on the young couple.
5. Use diplomacy to convince them the merchant is up to no good.
6. Use intimidation and don't pull a gun on them.
7. Subdue the man, but don't kill him.
8. Kill the man (self defense) but spare the unarmed woman.
9. Kill the man and woman with things that don't go BOOM! at 3 in the morning in a quiet neighbourhood.

There are a dozen more choices here too, but it really seems like no matter what the GM does, these players are set on solving all their problems with bullets or the edge of a knife.

[Killj0y]

Agreed. On the axis of Abort, Retry, Fail this party seems to have chosen Fail at every turn.

[Killj0y]

It is possible that the lead up to this is missing some information.

We know that the party was not able to get the clues they needed due to "not asking the right questions".

Since it is the GM who determines what the "right" questions are it could be said that he was not open to alternative strategy in the begining and after much trial and frustration the shady shop keeper was simply the breaking point for a group who was being denied advancement through their chosen means of information gathering.

It is also possible that the gun mage may have a history with this GM where he is sold poor quality good by shop keepers. Over and over again this may have driven him more than a little batty.

What about a history of bad guy NPC's with likely seeming covers? Is every barkeep a retired 20th level fighter? Is every newlywed couple a pair of secret khadoran agents bent on the downfall of the cygnaran crown?

How deeply ingrained are these infernalists? Are random cultist attacks a daily occurance for this party? Are mind control spells and curses bandied about like halloween candy?

We can't know. We also don't know if the players are having any fun with their current situation. I have known people who were more than happy to deal with the fallout of their unwise actions no matter what that happened to be and how badly it derailed any plots that would otherwise be running at that time.

[NoGas]

I will say this: the merchant specically told them that he would be willing to discuss business if he was given a bit of incentive. When asked what they could do, all he asked was that they buy some goods, no questions asked. The charges, totalling to 10 crowns (gp), were faulty, but the merchant was about to hash out the info that the gunmage "paid" for. However, upon seeing that the charges were shot, the gun mage decided he would get his money back. Why? I have no clue. But that was his choice.

The soon-to-be-wed couple? Just that. The man was a friend of the shady merchant and the two had a rappor with one another. I wouldn't just as soon hunt you down like a witch if you had been friends with a man who sold me bad goods. That is akin to arresting a witness because he knew the killer as a friend.

The merchant was also not involved with the cult, and the PCs knew this ahead of time. He had information, and was a man-about-town.

Addendum: I am of the mind of Whimper and a few other GMs around here. Sure, IKRPG is a fantasy world, but it is heavily steeped in reality and historical law. Sessions of the IKRPG aren't "let's see how amoral we can be as the GM tries to fight us at every turn," is is a coming together of a group of individuals who enact a story and work together to create it. At least, that is my mindset.

Why did the guards show up? Because there are gunshots sir. A screaming woman is protesting the loss of her dead fiance. So yes, the guards showing up was just as predictable as the police showing up if you go outside and fire a gun. Go ahead, I dare you. And when the police arrest you, yell foul.

Sorry for the anger there, but some posters here are acting like I am maliciously setting up the plot to fail. If I was truly a power-tripping murder GM, why the hell would I ask fellow GMs on the board how to save them to keep the campaign going, without failure?

[Askew37]

If this group was made up of Thamarites, Infernalists, Necrotechs, Skorne, and a Doom Reaver who ties a dead puppy to the end of his Fellblade for good measure, I would say their actions were spot on.

However, I highly doubt this is the case.

[Galleon]

I will say this: the merchant specically told them that he would be willing to discuss business if he was given a bit of incentive. When asked what they could do, all he asked was that they buy some goods, no questions asked. The charges, totalling to 10 crowns (gp), were faulty, but the merchant was about to hash out the info that the gunmage "paid" for. However, upon seeing that the charges were shot, the gun mage decided he would get his money back. Why? I have no clue. But that was his choice.

The soon-to-be-wed couple? Just that. The man was a friend of the shady merchant and the two had a rappor with one another. I wouldn't just as soon hunt you down like a witch if you had been friends with a man who sold me bad goods. That is akin to arresting a witness because he knew the killer as a friend.

The merchant was also not involved with the cult, and the PCs knew this ahead of time. He had information, and was a man-about-town.

Addendum: I am of the mind of Whimper and a few other GMs around here. Sure, IKRPG is a fantasy world, but it is heavily steeped in reality and historical law. Sessions of the IKRPG aren't "let's see how amoral we can be as the GM tries to fight us at every turn," is is a coming together of a group of individuals who enact a story and work together to create it. At least, that is my mindset.

Why did the guards show up? Because there are gunshots sir. A screaming woman is protesting the loss of her dead fiance. So yes, the guards showing up was just as predictable as the police showing up if you go outside and fire a gun. Go ahead, I dare you. And when the police arrest you, yell foul.

Sorry for the anger there, but some posters here are acting like I am maliciously setting up the plot to fail. If I was truly a power-tripping murder GM, why the hell would I ask fellow GMs on the board how to save them to keep the campaign going, without failure?


Now that i have some new info id like to repost. First id like to say im sorry for my first post. I made it with out all the info and came of like a ******. Thank you whimper for the spelling corrections , I was never every good at spelling or grammar. Ok getting back to it , I would have let the 10gp go if it was me but it also depends on how frustrated the pcs where with getting no where in thier mission. I do have to ask a few questions still though. Is this normal for your Pcs? Do your Pcs enjoy leg work like this or are they more kick in the door and crush the bad guys? I know some time my Pcs tend to forget they are in a urban combat and first like they are out in the wilderness. Thier combat style causes alot of colladeral damage. I do think that a death threat is good incentive to give out the info though if thats more the pcs style. You will make enemys that way but thats just makes session planning more intresting. As far as the newly weds go ,Maybe im off base but I did have one more point. If Im standing 10 ft for you ( no attack of oppertunity for shooting ) and say im going to kill you if you dont give me your wallet and you know im serious would you charge me with a knife and get shot in the head or would you give me your wallet and cancle your credit cards? Assume its you in real life. I think you would give up the wallet , I would. Its not worth dieing for.

If this is how your pcs act all the time I can relate. I've had plenty of story messed up by this type of thing.This may also be why I thought you where baiting them. My pcs would probably done the same thing and ended up fighting the gaurds and survivers leaving town. So ive learned to be careful with my actions and words and to not put them into situation that may end up like this.If i cant avoid it then it time to improvise , which ive also gotten good at. If you do want to get your Pcs out of this mess Id say jail brake is the only way to do it. They are on the hook for a double murder , and thats if the gaurds dont find the dead goons.

[Killj0y]

Nothing personal NoGas. Wasn't trying to make you out to be the bad guy simply pointing out that we know very little about what prompted the behavior shown by the gun mage prior to their arrest.

I can't say that I wouldn't have handled it differently once the gun mage started making bad choices but you were a little vauge about his actions prior to that point.

Generally when one of my players is going to be prone to bad decisions he shows his true colors long before the enevitable end. They don't just start killing NPC's and murdering innocents all of a sudden.

I can say that I have seen good players get bored with a game and turn to rapine and murder with a gusto that would make a rampaging viking proud. Turning otherwise reasonable characters into chaotic evil monsters in the course of a session. But that is not a failing of the GM.

Some people where going to jump on the blame the player bandwagon and say that you all needed to sit down and have a chat about proper gaming ettiquette like you were his kindergarden teacher and I just don't think that you can solve everything with that kind of discussion.

[allistorpreist]

As far as the newly weds go ,Maybe im off base but I did have one more point. If Im standing 10 ft for you ( no attack of oppertunity for shooting ) and say im going to kill you if you dont give me your wallet and you know im serious would you charge me with a knife and get shot in the head or would you give me your wallet and cancle your credit cards? Assume its you in real life. I think you would give up the wallet , I would. Its not worth dieing for.

My counter argument is, what if your wife is with you and neither of you have a wallet?

However that brings up my question for NoGas, did the gunmage win the intimidate test? Do your players have a lot of other social skills?

If they turn to intimidate all the time, you may want to give them more challenges that can be won with intimidation. Not all of them should be tailored that way, but more of them.

Granted I am pretty sure my GM would let us all fry for pulling that nonsense, but that is a different matter. :p

Talk to the players, see where it went wrong and if they and you want to continue the same game. Once that is done, you have a number of options for getting this back on course in-game.

[Oldgrue]

@ noGas
So, did the away from table talk work?

Also - who knew the PM system had become opt-in? Cool!

[Transbot9]

Hrm...well, I'd put the boots to 'em for the schenanigans, then give them a contact/spiked clue bat that lets them finish the mission. Finding and stopping the bad guys may be a way for them to earn a lighter sentence. The big thing would be to really make them work at it.

It does sound like there is a disjunction between your style of DMing and their style of play, and it would be easier for you to adjust to them than vise versa - yet it sounds like they need a good boot-to-the-head to discourage outright murder.

[Killj0y]

<Silly>
Some things I have used in the past when the party got frustrated with a plot or event I was running and needed newbie level help.

Clue Bat- Strike NPC to receive clue. Repeat until npc is dead or answers are good enough to motivate the party.

Exposition Bear- Spirit NPC who despenses long winded explainations about how and why a particular plot started and where it is going....then he eats you.

Clue Cakes- Tasty poisonous pastery that grants infinite wisdom for the 30 or so seconds that it takes you to die.

Clue Trap- Like a riddler inspired enigma the trap will give you answers. So what if they're on the bottom of a 100' pit trap with poison spikes and gelateous cubes.

Ritual of wisdom- Like the asguard god Odin once did you can sacrifice a body part for wisdom. No backsies.

</silly>

[NoGas]

I haven't had a from-table-top-chat yet, no opportunity. It's finals week, unfortunately.

[Whimper]

<Silly>
Some things I have used in the past when the party got frustrated with a plot or event I was running and needed newbie level help.

Clue Bat- Strike NPC to receive clue. Repeat until npc is dead or answers are good enough to motivate the party.

Exposition Bear- Spirit NPC who despenses long winded explainations about how and why a particular plot started and where it is going....then he eats you.

Clue Cakes- Tasty poisonous pastery that grants infinite wisdom for the 30 or so seconds that it takes you to die.

Clue Trap- Like a riddler inspired enigma the trap will give you answers. So what if they're on the bottom of a 100' pit trap with poison spikes and gelateous cubes.

Ritual of wisdom- Like the asguard god Odin once did you can sacrifice a body part for wisdom. No backsies.

</silly>

Those are all awesome, Killj0y!

[Killj0y]

Most of them work better in games without resurrection.