Hows your victory tasting?

[UnderWood]

Mines tasting delicious so far thanks to not losing a single game so far

We really kick *** in MKII








Yes I did just make this thread to say I had no losses I am that shallow but yet am also curious to see if my fellow circle players are also kicking ***.

Seriously they filter the word *** what in gods name is the world coming to when you can't say somethings kick *** maybe kickass though

[Deathraven]

Yeah you guys are doing pretty well out of mk2 so far. Shame about Kromac though, if I played circle it would've been him.

[Quicksil]

What's your list like?

[Scyldemort]

I've been winning most of my games in MK2 with three exceptions:
1 - the Cygnar player at my LGS who I can never seem to win against more than 50% of the time
2 - The Cryx/Retribution player at my LGS who I rarely win against, and only win against when I'm absolutely at the top of my game the entire battle
3 - The Cryx/Trollblood player at my LGS who I just plain never win against.

Against the two legion players, the mercenaries player, the mercenaries/cygnar player, the khador player, the trollblood player, the protectorate player, and the protectorate/cryx player, I am undefeated in MK2.

We can indeed kick àss.

[magi]

I've been playing almost exclusively Morvahna.

Out of the 4 games I've played, I've lost once. She might not be as good as she could be, but she's still mean.

I've played pKaya too, in a Tooth and Claw game against Rhyass. I ate Rhyass for breakfast.

[PPS_Mod:Not Dice]

Just a thought-

In the course of the field test, if you find yourself winning an unusually high amount of games, don't just take it for granted and thank the Hordes gods. Consider that something might be askew. It may simply be player skill, or luck of the moment. But, it's also worth consideration that something in your army build is working too well and may need leveling out.

Try to be aware of something that's overpowered/undercosted, even in your own faction. The goal here is to balance all factions, not to have Circle come out on top.

[Scyldemort]

Just a thought-

In the course of the field test, if you find yourself winning an unusually high amount of games, don't just take it for granted and thank the Hordes gods. Consider that something might be askew. It may simply be player skill, or luck of the moment. But, it's also worth consideration that something in your army build is working too well and may need leveling out.

Try to be aware of something that's overpowered/undercosted, even in your own faction. The goal here is to balance all factions, not to have Circle come out on top.

Isn't that what the Feedback tool is for?
I'm a little leery of the Lord of the Feast, myself. I have yet to play a game in MK2 which he has not completely destroyed an entire unit of enemy infantry by himself. Either I teleport him up with shifting stones and he threshers, or, if he's survived after that turn, he either charges or uses his raven to teleport into melee contact with something and uses corpse tokens to utterly crush it.

[UnderWood]

What's your list like?

List?

I make a different list with different models and a different caster every game.

I own everything for circle in some cases multiples I never ever play the same thing twice.

Now I've gone through every caster I'm working through every caster with different models.

Playing the same thing is no fun whatsoever I just thank god I've not run into any hard list counters yet but I'm trying to avoid playing extremes which reduces teh chance of that.

[Dantes]

What does victory taste like? I only get to have some versus other Hordes players.

Stupid Menoth. 0 -7

[UnderWood]

Isn't that what the Feedback tool is for?
I'm a little leery of the Lord of the Feast, myself. I have yet to play a game in MK2 which he has not completely destroyed an entire unit of enemy infantry by himself. Either I teleport him up with shifting stones and he threshers, or, if he's survived after that turn, he either charges or uses his raven to teleport into melee contact with something and uses corpse tokens to utterly crush it.


Man I've yet to have my LOTF do anything at all and I've taking him like 5 times. my opponents are avoiding him like the plague this is what I get for going on about how awesome he was in MKII :(

[Bakemono]

What does victory taste like? I only get to have some versus other Hordes players.

Stupid Menoth. 0 -7

Hrm. I haven't had this problem. In fact, I've found Menoth one of the easier opponents to play against. What do your lists like and what is your strategy? I can probably offer some advice.

I've been playing all the models and all the Warlocks. I tend to win a lot of my games but some Warlocks win more than others and some are horrible. I win in spite of them. Kromac and Morvana fall under this grouping.

[wvieira422]

i'm 0 wins and 10 loses i run a baldur constuct themed force all the wolds and Mega with druids w/ua, reeves and Woldstalkers, sentry stones, and shifting stones 50 pts - i interchange Ravagers in there sometimes and wolfriders - in every way i've managed ,to configure this and at most point configurations i have not been successful against my opponents which have consisted of Legion, Khador, Cygnar, Cryx, And Skorne.

When playing MK1 my wins/loses were much more even. In MK2 this seems to have taken a downward spiral. I know it's not my playstyle since i have been able to win several games in the past with MK1. I'm contributing this to the nerfing or the wolds and other stones in general and consider this type of force now underpowered. However i have turned to fielding other casters and a veriety of the beasts and find they do well enough.

[Dantes]

Hrm. I haven't had this problem. In fact, I've found Menoth one of the easier opponents to play against. What do your lists like and what is your strategy? I can probably offer some advice.

I've been playing all the models and all the Warlocks. I tend to win a lot of my games but some Warlocks win more than others and some are horrible. I win in spite of them. Kromac and Morvana fall under this grouping.

35 points:
pKaya
Feral
Gorax
Wyrd
Ravagers + UA
Bloodtrackers
Blackclad
Sentry Stone
Shifting Stone
Whitemane

The shifting stones usually stay in front of the Ravagers to provide a charge screen. Sentry stone and manikins go up the side under cover of buildings or other terrain, then sweep around back to spray the choir and other reserve pieces. Warbeasts usually end up dealing with the knights and Rhoven as they are up front. Bloodtrackers run the flank and hit whatever they can on the side but generally try to be annoying to force him waste resources to kill them.

Turn 2-3 is where things go round. He usually pops feat and dismantles half the army like it's nothing and I die within a turn or two.

He plays Kreoss, Sevvy and Harbringer mostly.

[Bladestorm]

I wouldn't know. I've only gotten to play one game so far, initially because the field test launched halfway through game night that week so wasn't available, then because I've come down with something nasty. That one game was painfull though:

25 points.

I had
Baldur
Megalith
Gnarlhorn
Woldwyrd
Druid stoneward and Woldstalkers

He had
Goreshade the Bastard
Deathjack
Bane knights (6)
Bane Thralls (10)
Bane lord Tartarus
Necrotech and scrap thrall
Plus of course the free extra unit of Bane Thralls.

My first real move was popping the gnarlhorn animus on Megalith after Goreshade had popped feat to try and get his free unit up in my stalkers face (he underestimated the woods a bit and only killed one) and using him to trample over to Goreshade - whom he hit with every bought attack and delivered average damage rolls to but failed to kill (3 health left) I think in mk I he would have managed thanks to the free stone skin, but without he just didn't have the damage - of course the deathwalker was still alive so he'd have had a get out of jail card anyway. Megalith then died to about four? bane knights charging in part thanks to his being in range of a bane thrall so being arm 17.

At this point he took to spamming Mageblight so Baldur and the stoneward couldn't cast anything or even attempt to use his feat.

The next turn I was able to get a shot with the Wyrd and rolled a touch low - dealing 1 damage to goreshade - 2 health!. Then all four woldstalkers missed.

From there on there wasn't really anything I could do, though the Gnarlhorn had a try - trampling a full six bane thralls (and failing to damage three of them!) Deathjack walked up and sliced Baldur to bits.

I think if my oponent had owned the Cryx for more than a few weeks he probably wouldn't have overexposed Goreshade and I wouldn't have even been able to try and kill him.

[Bakemono]

i'm 0 wins and 10 loses i run a baldur constuct themed force all the wolds and Mega with druids w/ua, reeves and Woldstalkers, sentry stones, and shifting stones 50 pts - i interchange Ravagers in there sometimes and wolfriders - in every way i've managed ,to configure this and at most point configurations i have not been successful against my opponents which have consisted of Legion, Khador, Cygnar, Cryx, And Skorne.

Let me start by saying "forget about theme lists!" Theme lists are cute but rarely competitive. The exception being the Furry lists of P-Kaya right now which aren't just competitive but broken (in my opinion). The list you have above is simply ineffective. It tries to do too many things and it will do none of them well. A Baldur list still requires a Feral Warpwolf and a Gorax. Throw one Woldwarden in if you MUST. I suppose there is always the outside chance you might find a use for it. It seems a rather expensive way to spam one more Earth Spikes spell if you ask me. The Druids are solid. The Reeves and the Woldstalkers are both ranged units and you don't need two. I don't even think you need one. The Circle is not particularly effective when fielding lots of Units. That isn't our "thing" so to speak. We do our damage with Warbeasts and units are simply support and niche function.


When playing MK1 my wins/loses were much more even. In MK2 this seems to have taken a downward spiral. I know it's not my playstyle since i have been able to win several games in the past with MK1. I'm contributing this to the nerfing or the wolds and other stones in general and consider this type of force now underpowered. However i have turned to fielding other casters and a veriety of the beasts and find they do well enough.

I don't think much of your list even in MKI. I would take it apart. However, it is possible you did benefit from fighting more Infantrymachine in MKI. Your list has lots of shooting and I suppose that was helpful. Moreover the Woldwardenw ould still stop charges dead (unless they had pathfinder) back then. The Woldwardens are certainly rather inefficient these days but I suspect the greatest change is that your opponents aren't spamming easily killed infantry at you anymore.

[Runesong]

A couple of my losses have been because I was too nice and got hosed by rules confusion, but I'm still having a devil of a time against Khador and the high-armor lists common in my local meta. I've been running mostly pKruegar to test out his rule changes, but I threw Mohsar in the mix once.

Granted, I'm also just coming back into the game after a long hiatus. Got married, got distracted, then decided I'd wait a couple of months for the Mk II rule FT to come out so I wasn't just relearning Mk I when I came back. I'm rusty.

[bushman101]

I've about broken even.
Through the course of the Fieldtest, I've made some wonky lists for the sake of trying out models.
After I've tried every Circle model at least once (almost there!) I'll start working on game breaking lists.

[Bakemono]

35 points:
pKaya
Feral
Gorax
Wyrd
Ravagers + UA
Bloodtrackers
Blackclad
Sentry Stone
Shifting Stone
Whitemane

Hrm. Ok. What is whith all these damn units and infantry? I consider this a losing proposition to start with even with a stronger infantry Warlock. You have one that has almost no synergy with infantry here. The Feral, Gorax, and Wyrd are fine. A Woldwyrd is always a great include against Menoth as they love their upkeep spells. The rest need to go away. If you really MUST have infantry in your list, get the Druids (then there might be a reasont o keep the Blackclad) w/Overseer so you can ignore all that Menoth fire. Shifting Stones are fine but their real use is with Warbeasts.


The shifting stones usually stay in front of the Ravagers to provide a charge screen. Sentry stone and manikins go up the side under cover of buildings or other terrain, then sweep around back to spray the choir and other reserve pieces. Warbeasts usually end up dealing with the knights and Rhoven as they are up front. Bloodtrackers run the flank and hit whatever they can on the side but generally try to be annoying to force him waste resources to kill them.

This sounds, if you will pardon my assumption, like you are fighting a defensive battle while you hope to attrition key things. Bogging your Warbeasts (what few of them you have) in his tarpit knights is not a good option, particularly since P-Kaya specializes in winning by assassination.



Turn 2-3 is where things go round. He usually pops feat and dismantles half the army like it's nothing and I die within a turn or two.
He plays Kreoss, Sevvy and Harbringer mostly.

He dismantles half the army like it is nothing because that army is, sad to say, nothing. Infantry for Hordes are support units at best. Damn Kreoss knocks them all down and unlike Warbeasts you can't shake that off. Don't get me wrong, the various units you list are all useful in their way but they CANNOT carry your battle. You have no offense. Your opponent isn't going to feel threatened by you. This gives him all the initiative. You need to have something big, hairy and nasty always on the edge of running in and assassinating him which will force him to to follow the pace YOU set. The Circle (P-Kaya in particular) must set the pace and terms of every battle or they will lose. We are "strikers" which means we hit hard, fast, and kill what we hit. We cannot, however, stand and go head to head or survive attrition fights.

[Scyldemort]

35 points:
pKaya
Feral
Gorax
Wyrd
Ravagers + UA
Bloodtrackers
Blackclad
Sentry Stone
Shifting Stone
Whitemane

The shifting stones usually stay in front of the Ravagers to provide a charge screen. Sentry stone and manikins go up the side under cover of buildings or other terrain, then sweep around back to spray the choir and other reserve pieces. Warbeasts usually end up dealing with the knights and Rhoven as they are up front. Bloodtrackers run the flank and hit whatever they can on the side but generally try to be annoying to force him waste resources to kill them.

Turn 2-3 is where things go round. He usually pops feat and dismantles half the army like it's nothing and I die within a turn or two.

He plays Kreoss, Sevvy and Harbringer mostly.

Against Menoth, with pKaya, there are basically four things you need to remember to do.
1 - Kill his synergy models
2 - Deny him the ability to respond effectively to your army
3 - Get. The. Assassination. Run.
4 - Any time you are ending your turn with important models in his army's striking range, you are doing it wrong. You've got the mobility to run circles around him. Use it.

[Zyrael]

A mixed bag.

I'm winning more than I'm losing. But a lot of that has to do with relative player skills and my level of experience. I'm not bragging, just making clear how the gamers are going. Happily we have a lot of new players... but this makes gauging effectiveness of models more tricky.

Some wins have felt good and fun and that the game was functioning perfectly and all I could want out of it. Heck some losses have felt like that. But some wins have felt hollow and boring... AKA Kromac and Morvahna. Wins with these 2 can be so flavorless that it almost feels like losing.

Feral Warpwolves win a lot of games for me, but I'm not to the point where I think they need a nerf... they do what they are supposed to do... utterly destroy a single, even high arm, target. But warpwolf delivery can only ever be so exciting.

[Dantes]

Hrm. Ok. What is whith all these damn units and infantry? I consider this a losing proposition to start with even with a stronger infantry Warlock. You have one that has almost no synergy with infantry here. The Feral, Gorax, and Wyrd are fine. A Woldwyrd is always a great include against Menoth as they love their upkeep spells. The rest need to go away. If you really MUST have infantry in your list, get the Druids (then there might be a reasont o keep the Blackclad) w/Overseer so you can ignore all that Menoth fire. Shifting Stones are fine but their real use is with Warbeasts.

Menoth doesn't have upkeep. Everything is *Action there is nothing to use the wyrd on. It only keep him from using the one upkeep spell on his list.




This sounds, if you will pardon my assumption, like you are fighting a defensive battle while you hope to attrition key things. Bogging your Warbeasts (what few of them you have) in his tarpit knights is not a good option, particularly since P-Kaya specializes in winning by assassination.


No choice, there is no way to get around them. He runs the infantry right at my warbeasts. If I shift and port away he simple consolidates behind the infantry wall. I am forced to fight them, there is no alternative. His entire army is Trutle, turtle, turtle, pop feat, kill.



He dismantles half the army like it is nothing because that army is, sad to say, nothing. Infantry for Hordes are support units at best. Damn Kreoss knocks them all down and unlike Warbeasts you can't shake that off. Don't get me wrong, the various units you list are all useful in their way but they CANNOT carry your battle. You have no offense. Your opponent isn't going to feel threatened by you. This gives him all the initiative. You need to have something big, hairy and nasty always on the edge of running in and assassinating him which will force him to to follow the pace YOU set. The Circle (P-Kaya in particular) must set the pace and terms of every battle or they will lose. We are "strikers" which means we hit hard, fast, and kill what we hit. We cannot, however, stand and go head to head or survive attrition fights.
I genereally don't have issues with hitting and killing but with a warcaster that stands in egypt and laughs at me it's hard to fight them. There is no way to assassinate a warcaster who never leaves his deployemnt zone and waits for you to come to him.

Yes it's an attrition fight, becuase he forces me to play it. He does it to everyone, every game against him is a long drawn out attrition fight. You can usually get a 50 or 75 point game in the time it takes to finish one 35 point game against him.

So you suggest maybe dropping the trackers, shifting stone and blackclad for a Pureblood? Or just go all beast?

[Talking Head]

The real question is how often/hard are your wins against people when playing Circle compared to how often/hard your wins are against those same people when you are playing one of your other factions.

Winning a lot with your Circle doesn't say much about Circle if you win a lot regardless of faction.

[Mutton]

Against Menoth, I feel that there is a checklist as to how you play
A. Is he running Sevvy/Harby/eFeora/pKreoss?
If so, cry a bit, curl up into a Fetal position, and try and get your barklocks off.
If not, then Scyldemort (http://privateerpressforums.com/member.php?u=29515)'s points apply

[Scyldemort]

No choice, there is no way to get around them. He runs the infantry right at my warbeasts. If I shift and port away he simple consolidates behind the infantry wall. I am forced to fight them, there is no alternative. His entire army is Trutle, turtle, turtle, pop feat, kill.

And there's your problem, right there. No, not his army. Your attitude. You've given up the initiative, and when Circle loses the initiative, we lose the game. Your army is head and shoulders faster and more mobile than his, and you effectively ignore terrain, or have the tools to do so. There is absolutely no reason for you to be allowing him to set the terms of engagement, and as long as you do, You. Will. Lose.

As for your current list, the Wyrd isn't really helping you there. Have you considered taking an Argus? Grant your Warpwolf pathfinder with its animus and you're halfway to your assassination run. In this list, anything that doesn't actually help you deliver your warpwolf (or Kaya) to his warcaster is dead weight. And if you must take a Sentry Stone, use it for forest creation. You can completely screw up his ability to move across the board with a well placed forest template or two.

[Dantes]

Against Menoth, I feel that there is a checklist as to how you play
A. Is he running Sevvy/Harby/eFeora/pKreoss?
If so, cry a bit, curl up into a Fetal position, and try and get your barklocks off.

Congrats, you just listed the only warcasters he plays.

[Mutton]

Congrats, you just listed the only warcasters he plays.

*pats on the back*
It's okay man, it's okay. It may cost a little, but buy him eKreoss, or pFeora, or something. Wean him off the easy buttons.

[Scyldemort]

Mutton exaggerates. I do understand, though: Menoth can be very intimidating. The biggest thing I did that made me able to completely demolish Menoth from the inside out was play them for a couple months before going back to my Circle. Sevvy, Harby, eFeora, and pKreoss can be annoying, but they're not beyond Circle's ability to handle.

Related note: why the Ravagers? You're spending what, 12 points on Ravagers alone? What is it doing for you? What does it add to your force? How does it help you get your assassination? Is there a better investment of points you could be getting here?

My suggestion: if you really want to screw with your enemy's infantry, get some AoE. Easiest way to do that: Bloodweavers. Speed 7, gang, cause enemy soldiers to explode when you kill them into 5" AoE templates that cause all enemy models to take blast damage equal to the current STR of the destroyed model? Yes please. At the very least, he'll see the Bloodweavers as a threat, and may be provoked into leaving his turtle shell to go after them. Another alternative, not so much with the AoE but very good at hit and run: Wolf Riders. For two points less than you're paying for all those Ravagers, you can get a full unit of Wolf Riders.

Another useful model for dealing with hordes of infantry: Lord of the Feast. P+S 13, reach, thresher. The threat represented by that model is very hard to ignore - especially when teleported into position by shifting stones.

Remember, though: no matter what models you take or what you do with them, it should all be with an eye towards opening up that assassination run. If you lose half your army in a turn but he exposes himself to a counterattack on his warcaster? You win.

[Mutton]

I'd go so far as to say that Harby is close to beyond our ability to handle; I've considered adding "nerf Harby" to the end of all my feedback. 'Jack heavy eSevvy approaches that level as well; they are just the best 'casters in the game, with the best support.

[Der Dexter]

also playing some form of scenarios always helps, since then it's quite hard to turtle up on a single location, unless it's a mosh pit, but then they also need to get there.
Playing caster kill always isn't this game, only half of it.

[Scyldemort]

I'd go so far as to say that Harby is close to beyond our ability to handle; I've considered adding "nerf Harby" to the end of all my feedback. 'Jack heavy eSevvy approaches that level as well; they are just the best 'casters in the game, with the best support.

What specifically is it about Harbinger that you find difficult to deal with?

[Dantes]

Related note: why the Ravagers? You're spending what, 12 points on Ravagers alone? What is it doing for you? What does it add to your force? How does it help you get your assassination? Is there a better investment of points you could be getting here?

Only 8 points, min unit with UA. The ravagers usually end up crushing a flank. When I get decent rolls they usually butcher Rhoven and his goons and begin cutting their way through his support. The only time I got close revolved around porting the wolf back and walk the ravagers down the line of kinghts. They couldn't rotate to reposition and stop the wolf but the feral died to the warjack with the flail. They never seem to let me down.



My suggestion: if you really want to screw with your enemy's infantry, get some AoE. Easiest way to do that: Bloodweavers. Speed 7, gang, cause enemy soldiers to explode when you kill them into 5" AoE templates that cause all enemy models to take blast damage equal to the current STR of the destroyed model? Yes please. At the very least, he'll see the Bloodweavers as a threat, and may be provoked into leaving his turtle shell to go after them.

I have and use Weavers all the time but exploding a arm 18 knight with a pow 6 attack. I usually don't take them in less then 50 point games.



Another useful model for dealing with hordes of infantry: Lord of the Feast. P+S 13, reach, thresher. The threat represented by that model is very hard to ignore - especially when teleported into position by shifting stones.

Remember, though: no matter what models you take or what you do with them, it should all be with an eye towards opening up that assassination run. If you lose half your army in a turn but he exposes himself to a counterattack on his warcaster? You win.
I don't have the LotF but I'll proxy and see how it goes.

Gap opening and port/feat is usually how I win against everyone else. It's just hard for me to crack the Menoth walnut.

Thanks for the help.

[Mutton]

What specifically is it about Harbinger that you find difficult to deal with?

Oh lord, what part isn't? I spent a while playing as Harby, trying to figure out her weaknesses; I lost my first game with her, figured out what I did wrong, never lost after that. Harby has the one of the greatest debuffs in the game, highest focus in the game, great buffs, great feat. She's everything but one.

[Scyldemort]

Only 8 points, min unit with UA. The ravagers usually end up crushing a flank. When I get decent rolls they usually butcher Rhoven and his goons and begin cutting their way through his support. The only time I got close revolved around porting the wolf back and walk the ravagers down the line of kinghts. They couldn't rotate to reposition and stop the wolf but the feral died to the warjack with the flail. They never seem to let me down.

I was counting the Whitemane.


I have and use Weavers all the time but exploding a arm 18 knight with a pow 6 attack. I usually don't take them in less then 50 point games.

Arm 15 knights, actually. Note that in this case, it doesn't matter what order the effects resolve in: whether they are Arm 17, STR 8 or ARM 15, STR 6, you need 9s to kill. That's one in three. Considering that each Bloodweaver that gets in contact with a Knight should be able to kill it on a charge... There are certainly other options, but I've killed whole units of Knights Exemplar with these girls.

[Dantes]

I was counting the Whitemane.
Ahs




Arm 15 knights, actually. Note that in this case, it doesn't matter what order the effects resolve in: whether they are Arm 17, STR 8 or ARM 15, STR 6, you need 9s to kill. That's one in three. Considering that each Bloodweaver that gets in contact with a Knight should be able to kill it on a charge... There are certainly other options, but I've killed whole units of Knights Exemplar with these girls.
Errants are 16, and that is usually what he fields. With Self-sac he gets to choose where the AOE drops.

[Mutton]

Ahs



Errants are 16, and that is usually what he fields. With Self-sac he gets to choose where the AOE drops.

Actually, if he self-sacs, you don't get a blast at all. Errants are the ultimate *** off to all on boxed or destroyed abilities.

[Scyldemort]

Oh lord, what part isn't? I spent a while playing as Harby, trying to figure out her weaknesses; I lost my first game with her, figured out what I did wrong, never lost after that. Harby has the one of the greatest debuffs in the game, highest focus in the game, great buffs, great feat. She's everything but one.

Her feat is mean, I admit, as are her spells, but that's generally why I like to field druids + UA with blackclads against Menoth to support my beasts. Immune to Fire Damage, and Countermagic. It *really* helps.

I can't recall if shifting stone teleportation gets around her feat or not.

[Mutton]

So you've stopped REBUKE. Good job. Now deal with a bunch of 'jacks that have around equal threat to you, can't be targetted by magic, and you get one attack on. Seriously, she's insane and I've decimated armies without casting REBUKE even once.

[Scyldemort]

So you've stopped REBUKE. Good job. Now deal with a bunch of 'jacks that have around equal threat to you, can't be targetted by magic, and you get one attack on. Seriously, she's insane and I've decimated armies without casting REBUKE even once.

And I've killed her twice in the last week. :P
With Baldur, actually.
I grant that she's mean, but she's not unkillable.

[DemonCalibre]

Right now, I think I am 5-0-2?(One of those ties is a win, where we made several mistakes that made big game impact and called it a draw)

I haven't been playing Morvahna as much as I would like, I keep roping myself into being Devil's Advocate and playing Warmachine against my Trollblood friends, or Testing Calandra's brokeness.

Right now I am not sure I am willing to attribute those to Circle overpowered nature, most of those games were nail biters and my win ratio is generally pretty high.

[Bakemono]

Menoth doesn't have upkeep. Everything is *Action there is nothing to use the wyrd on. It only keep him from using the one upkeep spell on his list.

If the Warcasters he is using don't use upkeeps, the Woldwyrd is rather pointless to you. That is (5) points back right there.



No choice, there is no way to get around them. He runs the infantry right at my warbeasts. If I shift and port away he simple consolidates behind the infantry wall. I am forced to fight them, there is no alternative. His entire army is Trutle, turtle, turtle, pop feat, kill.

Go THROUGH them. This requires, of course, that you have the right tools for the job. That means the Feral Warpwolf and the Pureblood. If you want to use P-Kaya, you need at least two Feral Warpwolves and a Pureblood would go a long way to solving your problem. The Pureblood allows itself and the Ferals to go ghostly and thereby ignore free strikes. Warpwolves can trample and will pretty much kill every base they step on. If you do it right, you can literally trample entire units to death and end up past then and on the real targets you want to kill. The good thing about the "turtle" from your point of view is he puts all his eggs in one basket. It means his Warcaster is somewhere near the center or the rear. Once you go through, you are through. One Feral Warpwolf charged up will kill ANYTHING. You win by assassination. Think of those troops as speed bumps, nothing else. It isn't required that you fight and destroy them. It is only required that you get past them or cripple them.



I genereally don't have issues with hitting and killing but with a warcaster that stands in egypt and laughs at me it's hard to fight them. There is no way to assassinate a warcaster who never leaves his deployemnt zone and waits for you to come to him.

Really? Interesting but not entirely a problem either. I'm going to sound redundant but battles are won based on the manevuer. If you opponent is really this predictable then you have to use it. Personally, if I were you I was swap Warlocks to Stormwrath, get some Druids with an Overseer and a Wayfarer. Get your Feral or two, a Gorax and perhaps an Argus. How many points are we talking about exactly? Stormwrath with the Druids is a great answer to a Menoth Infantry army. He can spam the infantry. He can toss big things with Tornado. He can give lighting tendrils to your Druids who are going to be immune to Menoth fire. He can help a bit against the ranged. To answer your earlier question, yes... if you stay with P-Kaya you need to play to HER strengths which is lots of Warbeasts. If you don't want to fight wrecking crew style, then you need the right tools to try and do what you want. Stormwrath will give you that. Baldur as a fallback. If you have enough points, and have covered your Feral bases... a Woldwarden (I'm not a huge fan of the new ones) is one more spam of an attack spell.


Yes it's an attrition fight, becuase he forces me to play it. He does it to everyone, every game against him is a long drawn out attrition fight. You can usually get a 50 or 75 point game in the time it takes to finish one 35 point game against him.

Heh. He sounds like a good player, or at least one who is playing to the strength of his army. That goes a long way. Don't let him dictate the pace of the fight.


So you suggest maybe dropping the trackers, shifting stone and blackclad for a Pureblood? Or just go all beast?

Tell me the exact points list you want and I'll give you my opinion of the list you should build against him.

[Mutton]

pSevvy laughs are you stopping him from targeting you with spells and arcs A2A off his own dudes. eSevvy is shut down far weaker against Druids, but it effectively forces you to stay together, and then when he needs to get some spells off, he feats and moves your druids to let him blast you with REBUKE or influence. Harby is still a "curl up into corner and cry" 'caster.

[DemonCalibre]

@Dantes The easiest way to beat a guy that doesn't leave his deployment zone, is to hide your army in yours and keep passing your turn till he leaves.

Remember there is no rule in Warmachine that says you have to walk into the teeth of his guns and try to win. If he is playing a Turtle army, force him to play against his nature and come get you.

You can also solve this by playing Missions where he has to move up and get some, and apart of it's a sportsmanship issue, in an assassination game due to the open ended nature of the win condition, can lead to some negative play styles(camping, kiting, etc. The very thing that missions were designed to prevent). Playing just like they do, will generally send the message to actually play to win the game, rather then to play waiting for your opponent to lose it.

[Mutton]

@Dantes The easiest way to beat a guy that doesn't leave his deployment zone, is to hide your army in yours and keep passing your turn till he leaves.

Remember there is no rule in Warmachine that says you have to walk into the teeth of his guns and try to win. If he is playing a Turtle army, force him to play against his nature and come get you.

You can also solve this by playing Missions where he has to move up and get some, and apart of it's a sportsmanship issue, in an assassination game due to the open ended nature of the win condition, can lead to some negative play styles(camping, kiting, etc. The very thing that missions were designed to prevent). Playing just like they do, will generally send the message to actually play to win the game, rather then to play waiting for your opponent to lose it.

To be fair, if he's made an army geared toward shooting and you have toward melee, you're the bad sport here. I just keep a mental "do not play list" of those who constantly run gunlines, aren't good sports, or whatnot. Just excuse yourself if you don't want to play a gunline; say it's not fun for you.

[Dantes]

To be fair, if he's made an army geared toward shooting and you have toward melee, you're the bad sport here. I just keep a mental "do not play list" of those who constantly run gunlines, aren't good sports, or whatnot. Just excuse yourself if you don't want to play a gunline; say it's not fun for you.
Kinda hard to do in a tournament. ;)

Thanks for the advice. I only have Kaya and EKaya so I really can't switch casters. I'll run a couple different lists from you guys have suggested and see how I fare.

[DemonCalibre]

Well if your Tournament isn't running scenarios(which will force him to move), then it will become sticky.

If you are in an assassination tournament (which for the most part I think is a bad idea), you can still not engage him in his deployment zone as a draw in most tournaments is a double loss, so why give him the win? force him to make a game of it.

[Mutton]

So he can move forward into your melee list and lose, or force a loss on you? Did he bring a boring list? Yes. If you can't counter it in a tournament setting, that's your fault. I hate gunlines, I really do. I don't like playing them, and in a friendly setting I will refuse to game against them much of the time. But I'm not going to be an *** in a tournament; sportsmanship is important, and by forcing a double loss you're not showing it.

[DemonCalibre]

I actually understand both your points Mutton.

I know I come off as a bit of a jerk about it, but I had a Tournement(at Gencon no less), that had the assassination one list format, and my second round was against a camping ranged attack army, where the guy would hide rather then make a game of it, we timed out, and he never even tried to win(I had killed some of his models but I wasn't willing roll over for him)

Honestly, It comes down to the guy, and his motivation. If he is playing a gun line list, and is trying to win(not hide unless he kills your models at no risk), then the onus is on you to build a list to beat that.

I will admit apart of me(the part I don't generally listen to), says Why is it so wrong to turn the table on a guy playing like that. He will only play if you walk into his trap, so don't do it, and make him walk into yours. After you eat the double loss, pat him on the shoulder and say "That's how it feels", and go play your next game in the losers bracket.