Fennblades.

[MarmaladeChainsaw]

Ok, haven't seen much talk about this yet.

General consensus seems to be that they are pretty good. I can't help but feel, however, that Snag and Slash is situational to the point of being nearly useless.

In MKI, there was a fair chance you would see cav in a game, but they were far from an auto include. In MKII, A great deal of the players seem to think they are trash(whether or not this is true is irrelevant), so it stands to reason we will see less of them hitting the table.

This takes an ability that was only kinda useful in MKI, and makes it even less useful. I, for one, would like to see it swapped for something more generally useful, even something less powerful, if it is more useful.

Any ideas? Cuz I got nothin here.

-MC

[kakita]

people have mentioned brutal charge. It kiiinda makes sense.

[MarmaladeChainsaw]

That would be cool. Might be too good, but it would definitely be cool.

-MC

[Endgame]

I had suggested removing Snag and Slash and giving them either

Hooked Blade: 1+ to dmg rolls against medium bases and +2 to dmg rolls against Large bases

Or

Set Defense and Blade Guard (+2 def against Ranged attacks)

Either way, bump them to a 5/8 unit. The first option makes the Fennblades a middle ground between champs and Kriel Warriors and it retains the general original intent. The second makes them into a defensive vanguard unit that can survive charges, random shooting, and impact attacks.

Or, I supposed you could give them all of the abilities and make them a 5/9 unit.. :D

[i_like_tool]

General consensus seems to be that they are pretty good. I can't help but feel, however, that Snag and Slash is situational to the point of being nearly useless.

-MC

I think a lot of us are torn on em. I know I am. If they stay in there current form I see little to no times that I would use them over KW.
Yes reach is nice and yaddie yaddie but my KW do more for me

Better Arm, can move faster(and can engage as fast as the Fenn), and the Prayers are handy all the way around. No they can't charge as far AND be as strong as Fenns can at the same time
But they need something. i've left feedback accordingly.
Snag and Slash is indeed damn near useless. You know when I see cav? The odd eGaspy list or Skarre list runs em. That's about it for me

[kakita]

Skorne use their ferox quite often

[i_like_tool]

Either way, bump them to a 5/8 unit. The first option makes the Fennblades a middle ground between champs and Kriel Warriors and it retains the general original intent. The second makes them into a defensive vanguard unit that can survive charges, random shooting, and impact attacks.


I would rather see them 5/7 than 5/8 with those updates

[Yoshi]

Skorne use their ferox quite often
In MK2, they use it anytime they can, they are just too good with much of their warlocks, the problem is that they don't get knockdown. I think the Fennblades are good as is, espescially with Madrak, Borka and Callandra. We should stop the powercreap before we get nerfed.

[i_like_tool]

In MK2, they use it anytime they can, they are just too good with much of their warlocks, the problem is that they don't get knockdown. I think the Fennblades are good as is, espescially with Madrak, Borka and Callandra. We should stop the powercreap before we get nerfed.

Powercreep implies that it is done over a series of books ala Gamesworkshop. That is not what is happening. Plenty of factions have had units and models buffed, why shouldn't we as well?

As it currently stands none of my playtesting has showed me any reason to take them over Kriel Warriors outside of Borka if I am not taking the Gatormen Posse.

They need something and have the opportuniy to be the perfect bridging unit between Kriel Warriors and Champions.

[petegrrrr]

The fennblades have terrible defensive stats, and with the loss of speed and their defensive order, they are actually very poor at their supposed strength, killing cav.

When your slow as mol*****, have no def and paper armor, and no way of preventing getting charged from 12 inches away, you are probably pretty bad at stopping cav.

They need to just abandon the anti cav mechanic.

Maybe even give then advance deploy to make up for the speed hit they took.

[Sevwall]

Ooh. Hooked Blade is cool. I mean, you'd need to kick them up to 5/8, but I want them to get to there anyway to provide more variety in list building.

Hooked Blade, +1 SPD.

[i_like_tool]

but I want them to get to there anyway to provide more variety in list building.


This is the largest reason I would like to see a change to them. Give them a place and let me vary my list building. I started off with a basic list and although it has expanded some, a lot of my list look rather similar. Why? Because they are effective.

Granted, certain casters will lean toward certain units/beast with them. This is a given. But when I skip Fennblades 9 times out of 9, there's a problem

[Sevwall]

Its funny, I have a different experience.

6 or less points? Fennblades every time. They way outclass Kriel Warriors without the UA. (either -1 mat for 1.5" threat range, or +1 Mat +2 POW for -.5" threat, neither of which is terribly good for the warriors)

7 points or more? Warriors with UA every time, for the crazy tarpit.

That wierd fact alone makes me think we need to seperate them.

[Endgame]

Ooh. Hooked Blade is cool. I mean, you'd need to kick them up to 5/8, but I want them to get to there anyway to provide more variety in list building.

Hooked Blade, +1 SPD.
I don't think you'll see +1 SPD given the uniformity of Troll speed as well as the fact they would start to obsolete Long Riders (which aren't that good, and are another matter IMO)

You also have to be careful about the offensive buffs with them, because adding something like powerful charge would start to make them... um... too offensive?

You'd also have to be careful with defensive buffs or they would start to encroach on Kriel Warriors role, even at at 5/8 price.

Giving them Set Defense and Hooked Blade in place of Hard and Snag and Slash wouldn't be bad at all. Set Defense would slightly raise the Fennblades survival against cav (though not all THAT much) and it would retain some of the flavor while reducing a game wide rule (hard).

It might be changing too much as once though, I'm not sure.

[Stevenswayze]

Its funny, I have a different experience.

6 or less points? Fennblades every time. They way outclass Kriel Warriors without the UA. (either -1 mat for 1.5" threat range, or +1 Mat +2 POW for -.5" threat, neither of which is terribly good for the warriors)

7 points or more? Warriors with UA every time, for the crazy tarpit.

That wierd fact alone makes me think we need to seperate them.

I have had the same experience. If I need a 6 point unit, I am just taking the Fennblades. I hated them at first(with the stupid anti cav rules) but the reality is that they are MAT6, POW12s with reach which is just so convenient. I always take Fell Callers and Chroniclers anyways so I just pretend that those solos are the Fenn UAs basically, which with reach its not really that hard to get MAT10 POW14s on people.

So I really hate saying it but I am starting to think I like them. I actually think Kriel Warriors are a chore to use. If any unit we have needs "Tactics" its the Kriel Warriors. I would add this to the Piper which then justifies truly the 3pt cost.

So I guess I am saying that maybe the Kriel Warriors need the lookin at/fine tuning. Even though both base units are 4/6 the fact that the Kriels will be eventually serving a larger role and will cost 9-12 points, is the real separation.

I would obviously be happy to trade the cav rules on fennblades for something neat, but I really feel like they are the true 4/6 infantry.

[CerberusPuppy]

KW are our cheap unit. It's okay if the Fennblades have to increase in cost, as long as they gain the right abilities to be significantly different and useful.

Set Defense is perfect. I like the "Hooked Blade" idea; still useful against cav, but more importantly useful against beasts and jacks.

Pete is right; even if we do see cav in the meta, Fenns aren't really all that good against it anyway.

The bottom line is that Fenns aren't all that terrible, it's just that there's not much reason to take them over Kriels. They need to be differentiated, that's the main thing.

[lastspartacus]

I love the fennblades without the cav special stuff, a very cheap troll unit with reach. I pick em over the kriels alot.

They are a cheap reach high pow unit that give you even more reason to never use cav.

[Stevenswayze]

KW are our cheap unit.

I kinda feel like Kriels are 6/9/12s which makes them not the cheap unit at all. I feel the same way about winterguard, and I always lament that IFP are not a 4/6 alternative(or 6/8 with UA). I just do not take Kriel Warriors without the Piper because the mini feat is too good, and really cements their role.

[MarmaladeChainsaw]

I think I'd be pretty comfortable paying 5/8 for them if their abilities justified it. I'm with the why not Kriels group. Yeah, the Fenns may arguably be better, but what they have over the Kriels is made up for in the Kriels versatility.

I'd rather they just be better and cost more. Hooked Blade is a cool idea, that could be something to work with.

-MC

[Bearded Dragon]

I'd rather them stay a 4/6 unit. I do agree the anti-cavalry rules should go in favor of something else, but that does not mean that need a point increase.

Look at the Legionaires, they have power 11, defensive line, reach, vigilance and CMA and are a 4/6 unit. Granted, I think they have too many powers for a 4/6, but that's a LOT more than the Fennblades have.

I say drop the anti-cav stuff for either +1 speed or the +1 damage/+2 damage thing and leave them at 4/6.

[Sevwall]

The problem isn't thier functionality, its that they fit really poorly into the army right now, completely overshadowing Kriel Warriors until you bring the UA into the picture. (so not until you spend 7 points)

[petegrrrr]

You know...as long as they are going to have bad defensive stats...

...you could always give them vengence...

They won't do it, because it would make them troll immortals, but man, vengence is freaking nasty on those guys.

But seriously, Advance deploy.

We are not going to get them back to speed 6, so they need another mechanic to increase their range. advance deploy is no longer the huge gamebreaker it was, so I see no reason they should not get it.

[kakita]

Say I wanted to keep the fenn's at 4/6. Would you guys suggest replacing any of the fennblades' abilities, and with what?

Is removing snag and slash for set defense, unyielding or brutal charge too much? I would love switch snag and slash for unyielding, for a hard frontline unit.

Edit: Pete AD on them would be very nice, but doesn't really fit the fluff. Unless there was a small rewrite on how they're always first on he battlefield I don't see that happening. Maybe advance move?

[Sevwall]

AD is one of the better ideas, if they jump to 5/8.

[Bearded Dragon]

I'd much rather have them at 4/6 than the same stats with ad at 5/8.

[Poise]

Set Defense
Brutal Charge
5/8

Seems to be the best combination I have seen.

[Invader Larb]

Advance Move is not a huge buff and would not likely increase their cost.

If PP really wanted to make them into our meat screen, they would gain Set Defense and Unyielding for 5/8. The unit would be terrible to charge.

I personally would rather they were our fast assault meat shield that ran accross the board into the enemy ranks.

Here is a crazy thought from another conversation... What about Bob and Weave? They run up the battlefield with some limited protection versus being cut down by range, then swing their swords to cut down cavalry and clog up enemy lines.

[Bearded Dragon]

Bob and Weave is an order, so they would not be able to run up the field and use it. Speed 5 melee units with bob and weave doesn't sound too interesting to me.

Now, if they just got Gudruns old shield guard, that would be cool, but I don't think they'll get it. The +2 defense against ranged attack and immunity to blast damage would be nice, but that's more like a magical forcefield abiliity.

[petegrrrr]

Okay, so adding it all up, here is what we get.

4/6

Advance deploy
Set defense
Unyeilding

You could add powerful charge or Cma and make them 5/8 as well.

Is that broken? Well, 4/6 steelheads get cma, powerful charge, and set defense...so no, no it isn't.

[PhoenixBlaze]

Well, I gave in and bought a box of them.....for my Christmas, but they look so cool!!!

I for one would want to see, besides a change in abilities, better stats! I've always said they need more armour. The models are covered in the stuff! ARM 16 would be great, so even with DEF 12, it'd give them a bit more survivability. SPD 5 is staying, so again, don't mind.

But Snag and Slash has to go, I like this Hooked Blade rule, gives them a bit of variability, but standard abilities like Set Defense or Brutal Charge would be easier to follow, and make them better!

I might be proxying them on thursday (the ones I bought are wrapped up......) and see how they fare. Haven't played in ageeees so I suspect my games might not go well as I struggle to both remember the game as a whole and try out the new stuff.

[Sevwall]

AD is extremely powerful. At the very least, it lets you deploy in the most optimal postition, as well as 6" aheadof the rest of the army..

[Invader Larb]

Okay, so adding it all up, here is what we get.

4/6

Advance deploy
Set defense
Unyeilding

You could add powerful charge or Cma and make them 5/8 as well.

Is that broken? Well, 4/6 steelheads get cma, powerful charge, and set defense...so no, no it isn't.

Steelheads are also +1 SPD, -1 MAT, -1 POW. Just to finish the comparison.

[petegrrrr]

Steelheads are also +1 SPD, -1 MAT, -1 POW. Just to finish the comparison.

Well, +1 defense. -1 arm as well.

[kakita]

and no tough.

Are we removing hard/snag and slash in these projections?

Just comparing against other 4/6 units:

1) TFG
Offense: +2 Pow, S&S VS +1 Spd, CMA
One deals more damage, but and has a cornercase rule in Snag and Slash. The other has a bit more threat range and the versatility of CMA. I'll call this a wash.

Defense: Tough, Hard, +1 arm VS Set Defence, Shield Wall, +1 Def
Let's say +1 arm and +1 defense cancels each other out. A random roll and a corner case rule in no way compares with the amazingness of set defense and shield wall.

Overall: TFG are the clear winner.

2) Steelheads
Offense: +1 MAT, +1 Pow, S&S VS Pow Charge, +1 Spd
Steelheads have more threat range and are more likely to hit on a charge, but FB are better hitters and damagers when tied down. Considering the assumed role of 'hold the line', I'll call it as FB's advantage.

Defense: Tough, Hard, +1 arm VS Set defence, +1 Def
SH are the winner vs chargers, FB when the opponent isn't charging. I'd argue that the steelheads are slightly better because of the defensive nature.

Overall, about a draw.

3) Praetorian Karax
Offense: +1 MAT, +2 Pow, Snag and Slash vs CMA, Ranked attacks.
While CMA and Ranked attacks are very useful, I'll say the base bonus of +1 MAT and +2 Pow is better. FB win.

Defense: +1 Arm, Tough, Hard, vs +1 Def, Girded, Shieldwall
+1 arm and def cancel. Hard and Girded kiinda cancel. Tough vs Shieldwall... I'd go with Karax.

Overall, about a draw again.

4) Nyss Legionnaires
Offense: +1 Pow, Snag and Slash vs CMA, Vengeance.
Whut. +1 Pow aside, I think the 'I hit you back' of vengeance and the versatility of CMA make legionnaires the winner here.

Defense: Tough, Hard, vs +1 Arm, Defensive Line
I think it's pretty clear win for the legionnaires as well. Tough and Hard don't exactly compare to +1 arm/+3 arm.

Overall, I think that the Legionnaires win are better all around.

5) Wolves of Orboros
Assuming FB have a bit more of a speed role...
Offense: +4 Pow vs +1 Spd, Pow Charge, Pathfinder, CMA
It's hard for me to call this. Wolves will hit eveyrthing first and better, but Pow 9? Then again, they have the advantage of CMA. For annoyance factor I'll say Wolves.

Defense: Tough, Hard, +1 arm vs +1 def (and kinda pathfinder)
I think the FB win this.

If this was a pure 'hold the line' role, I'd say FB win, but assuming you want to annoy/first strike, I think the speed and the mobility of the Wolves win this one.

[sepher32]

The most relevant 4/6 to compare them to is the Kriel warriors. And then the question is why do we have 2 units who are so similar?

[Stevenswayze]

and no tough.

Are we removing hard/snag and slash in these projections?

Definately.

Also it is a unique opportunity to just create a unique new rule that IS fluff approriate. The big thing about these guys is thier huge Scottish Claymores. I would also draw comparisons to the Landshnekt, just have them do something those units were famous for, that does not involve cavalry(see:super situational) if that is good enough to make em 5/7s or 5/8s then so be it.

I always just hate the ala carte idea of abilities. It takes away from the unique identity of other things, and waters down the overall picture.

Landschekt were famous for cleaving horse legs, but were also famous for bypassing pike formations by just broadly sweeping them out of the way. That is why in a different thread I recommended they negate reach from opposing models(with clever wording, it shouldnt create any timing issues).

Landschekt wielding Zweihänders were also known to be able to cut through multiple people in one swing. I do not know if giving a unit cleave is too out of control but it is a thought.

I also like AD because I sorta see Fennblades as roaming Highlanders. I mean I do not think you need to be an expert scout, or infiltrator fluffwise justify AD. You could also just be familiar with open country, and hold disorganized formations.

Also the sword techniques, and parry guards could also justify an immunity to freestrikes but I am not sure its that great on a Med Based unit.

I think it would be fun to submit a bunch of new ideas, who knows maybe they stow a few away and sprinkle em in later.

[HandsomeDan]

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone bring up how effective reach infantry is with both Madraks. Its epic Madrak I'm really looking forward to using them with. Have them run and then attack every one in reach when M feats.

That having been said, I do agree with everyone that their anti-cav rules are really confusing, just from a why why why perspective. If theres going to be a unit that has bonus rules against cav, it seems like it should be a merc/minion specialist not a faction mainstay. I like a lot of the ideas I've seen here, and really I'd be happy with any of them replacing this nonsensical cavalry bonus damage ability. I mean really, was anyone sitting around before meta came along thinking "oh man, all this cav keeps butchering my trolls. There's just no way to counter all this cav without a specialist unit tailored specifically for the task." Between medium bases and tough, trolls were possibly already the best faction at dealing with cav.

So yes, give them something else, even if they need to cost 5/8. Set defense, Bladeguard, vengeance, powerful charge, whatever. Snag and Slash needs to go. Even if it only costs the unit 1/3 of a point I don't want to pay for it. It was not the thing to keep to have the unit maintain its flavor.

[Lord Azathoth]

I would really like them to stay 4/6. The truth is, as much as people keep saying monetary cost shouldn't impact these decisions, for me it certainly does, and I want my cheap troops to be cheaper to buy as well (which is certainly how it worked with Cryx when I started with Prime). I was very happy to see the Fenn Blades be 4/6 and prior to the field test that was my only hope for them, a basic bare-bones cheap unit with reach and tough. It's only because Kriel Warriors dropped to the same cost (which surprised me, honestly) that I ever considered they may need a change.

Frankly, for all I care they could get Speed 6, Def 13, Arm 13 and lose all special abilities except Reach and Tough and I would be thrilled. I don't need all my troops having tons of special rules, and it would be nice to see a unit of lightly armored more nimble trollkin as an option. I've said for weeks that Burst Fire would be nice for them (or hooked blade as someone else suggested, same thing), but the low cost for me is the most important thing they keep. That and Reach are what makes me want them.

[Verjigorm]

I also like AD because I sorta see Fennblades as roaming Highlanders. I mean I do not think you need to be an expert scout, or infiltrator fluffwise justify AD. You could also just be familiar with open country, and hold disorganized formations.



On a side note, the Landsnecht had members of their groups now as the Vorlen something or other, litteraly translates as "The Lost Bunch" who were landscnechts, often equipped with musker/arquebusque and skirmished ahead of the main body.

[lastspartacus]

Reach helps them alot over the kriels for staying in control area for spell effects, and things such as madrak's feat.

[Sevwall]

The only thing I don't get about this thread is that basic Fennblades already outclass basic Kriel Warriors, so you can't request a fennblade buff without increasing thier cost, or also buffing warriors.

[Endgame]

The only thing I don't get about this thread is that basic Fennblades already outclass basic Kriel Warriors, so you can't request a fennblade buff without increasing thier cost, or also buffing warriors.
I actually think its the reverse! I'd rather have the ability to chose threat range or hitting power in most lists than kind of settle with middle of the road on the Fennblades.

I think it comes down to a playstyle thing with the current Warriors vs blades thing becuase they are so close to the same role. One needs because of this IMO, and I think fennblades are the better choice... for some reason. (probably becuase the warriors feel so right)

[Sevwall]

Huh?

If you pray, you gain +1 MAT (accuracy buffs not being terribly uncommon in our faction, as 6 out of 8 casters and a ubiquitous solo have some way of helping) and lose out on 1.5" of threat, and reach, which helps you engage more models.

Thats all you get.

If you choose threat range, you gain a paltry .5", and with no reach you need to physically be able to get there, as opposed to reach where you just have to draw an infinitely thin line. What do you lose for your .5" of threat? -1MAT, -2POW.

I really don't see why you would ever take kriel warriors, except that on first turn they generally get about 2" further down the field. Not worth it.

[StinkyJim]

I really like the look of Fennblades but was a bit underwhemed by their new rules. As mine have yet to arrive I have yet to test them but they don't seem any better than un upgraded Kreil warriors .

How about changing Snag and Slash to either *Attack or an Order and have it do no damage but cause Knockdown to Med and Large bases ?

[Endgame]

Huh?

If you pray, you gain +1 MAT (accuracy buffs not being terribly uncommon in our faction, as 6 out of 8 casters and a ubiquitous solo have some way of helping) and lose out on 1.5" of threat, and reach, which helps you engage more models.

Thats all you get.

If you choose threat range, you gain a paltry .5", and with no reach you need to physically be able to get there, as opposed to reach where you just have to draw an infinitely thin line. What do you lose for your .5" of threat? -1MAT, -2POW.

I really don't see why you would ever take kriel warriors, except that on first turn they generally get about 2" further down the field. Not worth it.

I'm normally taking damage buffs in, well, all of my lists. Drop flaming fist or Rage on a Kriel warrior (which ever one has the best charge) and CMA that model with another. You're looking at a sure to hit P+S 15 min damge roll.

CMA is the break point for me in most lists. I'd rather have CMA than reach as I can be sure to easily hit def 15 without a fell caller around.

I do kind of like to take Max Kriels w/ UA, 10x Fenn Blades, and 5x Champs in an infantry heavy list. Its 25 points and leaves plenty of room for the Kriel Stone and an Impaler and a Pyre.

[sepher32]

I would like the Fennblades a lot at 5/7 or 5/8 with gang.

[petegrrrr]

Huh?

If you pray, you gain +1 MAT (accuracy buffs not being terribly uncommon in our faction, as 6 out of 8 casters and a ubiquitous solo have some way of helping) and lose out on 1.5" of threat, and reach, which helps you engage more models.

Thats all you get.

If you choose threat range, you gain a paltry .5", and with no reach you need to physically be able to get there, as opposed to reach where you just have to draw an infinitely thin line. What do you lose for your .5" of threat? -1MAT, -2POW.

I really don't see why you would ever take kriel warriors, except that on first turn they generally get about 2" further down the field. Not worth it.


Well, your always getting +1 arm for a start.

And pow 10 still kills infantry, which is all either model is really geared for. Fennblades aren't striking fear into the heart of heavy infantry or jacks.


The difference between pow 10 and 12 in the capacity of killing infantry is fairly negligable.

[hooksy67]

Well, your always getting +1 arm for a start.

And pow 10 still kills infantry, which is all either model is really geared for. Fennblades aren't striking fear into the heart of heavy infantry or jacks.


The difference between pow 10 and 12 in the capacity of killing infantry is fairly negligable.

unless you primarily fight against shield wall infantry

[petegrrrr]

unless you primarily fight against shield wall infantry

In which case speed is not an issue, as you will out pace them with either unit, and the KW will hit easier.

[hooksy67]

solid point i am just trying to wipe out some ironfang pikeman with my meatshield up front before they die and the great thing about this debate is that we now have two super cheap units who can both do that = win/win for trolls

[Sevwall]

I will fully admit that I forget CMA when comparing Kriel warriors to fennblades, and have no defense for leaving it out in my comparisons.

Good points then ;)

[kakita]

Oh man, the thought of set defence, unyielding and vengeance (with the loss of cnag and slash and/or hard) at 5/8 is kinda awesome! Probably not going to happen though, especially looking at other vengeance units (Bane knights and immortals.... legionnaires dont count, I think they're much too powerful for their points cost and not something we should benchmark against).

[lastspartacus]

Don't compare legionairres, they are indeed borken and will hopefully lose vengeance.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Yeah, but what Sev is trying to point out is comparing basic KWs to basic Fennblades, and the 'blades are almost always better.
Sure with the bells and whistles the KWs outclass the Fennblades all over, but they should when they cost that much more.
Then again, for the maxed out KW unit at 11 points you can get 20 Fennblades for 1 point more, so maybe it is not as clearcut as I thought.

In any case, I don't like that KWs and Fennblades are fighting for the same role. I vote for 5/8, and some combination of Speed 6, Set Defense, Brutal Charge, Pow 13 or something I haven't though of yet.

[Stevenswayze]

Yeah, but what Sev is trying to point out is comparing basic KWs to basic Fennblades, and the 'blades are almost always better.
Sure with the bells and whistles the KWs outclass the Fennblades all over, but they should when they cost that much more.
Then again, for the maxed out KW unit at 11 points you can get 20 Fennblades for 1 point more, so maybe it is not as clearcut as I thought.

In any case, I don't like that KWs and Fennblades are fighting for the same role. I vote for 5/8, and some combination of Speed 6, Set Defense, Brutal Charge, Pow 13 or something I haven't though of yet.

A Full unit of Kriel Warriors is 6+3+3 for 12 points so for 15 Kriels you can get 20 Fenns.

Fennblades are the real 4/6 infantry, I think we are looking at it all wrong here. They are squishier,and have more of a defined roll. They are just a cheap tarpit that functions at its base cost. The more we type on it the more I am just all for leaving them well enough alone.

It is the Kriel Warriors we are confused by the most because people seem to really be sold on saying they are 4/6. The are not 4/6 they are 7/9 if you intend to make them a tarpit. They are basically the 5/8 unit everyone has been clamoring for(and heck they cost one more point even so people can really get excited about all the varied point costs in our units).

Where Fennblades are really really excelling for me is in lists where I need the cheap low maintenance tarpit because I have to invest in the support and warbeasts a little heavier than normal. For example my EDoomshaper lists LOVE Fennblades because for 4/6 I get super functional infantry that do not work like a rube goldberg machine. So I get to take my EBDT, Mulg, and Axer, and maybe the Krielstone or maybe the Thumper, whelps etc. I dont even really need a fell caller with em because the Chronicler can make em great just as they are.

The current brilliance of Fennblades as they are is that they require almost ZERO support garbage. If I take Kriel Warriors I am basically in for 9 points, and then I need a Fell Caller, a Chronicler, and a Krielstone Bearer. I am chasing bad points with even more points.

I dearly hope they already think this basically, because if so they really work as intended and we are just kinda being greedy.

EDIT:Also, not that it means anything but my defense of Fenns as remaining as they are is a 180 shift from my posts even a week ago. Basically they have been winding up in more and more of my lists, and have eclipsed the Kriel Warriors for me almost entirely. These guys are really shining for me in the field test so far, and perform better and better the more games I use them. I hope other people have been using them heavily in the beta and seen the light on this. They are really good(the cav stuff is just icing on the cake, trust me).

[The Happy Anarchist]

The current brilliance of Fennblades as they are is that they require almost ZERO support garbage. If I take Kriel Warriors I am basically in for 9 points, and then I need a Fell Caller, a Chronicler, and a Krielstone Bearer. I am chasing bad points with even more points.


I was with you until you started mentioning all this other stuff. Kriel Warriors rely less on Fell Callers and Chroniclers than the Fennblades, due to their self buffing and CMA. The KSB they get more use of, but certainly don't require it and can just run ahead as cheap 4+ toughing speedbumps with teeth.

The Fennblades get significantly more benefit from the Chronicler due to reach, and being less tough to the point where I would never take them without a chronicler. They require the Fell Caller much more because they are Mat 6 with no way of increasing it other than Fell Caller and Fennblades. The KSB they have almost no use for, sure, I'll grant you that, but it is not exactly required material on the Kriels either, they just take better advantage of it by getting to a sweeter spot on the curve.

I agree that Fennblades are better filling that cheap infantry slot due to not needing UAs & WAs, but they need support models much more than Kriel Warriors.

I do see your overall point however, and it is a good one. They really are better when points are tight, though KWs really do shine with their UA + WA.

[joedj]

Fennblades lose all the Cav stuff.

Fennblades get Berserk.

They kill everything including each other (hilarious if it's a 10 Troll unit), only the Tough ones stay around.

Doomreavers/Warmongers say 'hi' to your new brethren...

[Stevenswayze]

I was with you until you started mentioning all this other stuff. Kriel Warriors rely less on Fell Callers and Chroniclers than the Fennblades, due to their self buffing and CMA.

I usually take the Fell Caller and Chronicler with both units. The Chronicler with Kriels because the "if you kill me you get knocked down" story is just good with tarpits no matter what. Fenn Blades definately get more miles with Charge of the Trolls, and the Mist one, but I usually do the knockdown story from turn2 on.

I generally find I really want the Fell Caller MORE with Kriel Warriors because I do not often get the CMAs due to the medium bases on smaller bases. So when fighting things like Satyxis raiders, I would just as soon be MAT9 for Kriel Warriors and hit em on 5s. Also the Fell Caller is really really a must have with Kriel Warriors becuase I tend to play against opponents who always stay more then 9inches away so I usually do not have the luxury to get the +2Mat/Str chant.

Really because Fell Callers and Chroniclers can do some other things for the army, I usually just take those regardles.

So the main thing I feel compelled to take with Kriel Warrios is the Krielstone Bearer maxed out with UA, because I can keep em within the 11" bubble and the ARM17 makes them pretty hard to kill with blast damage. Also the Weapon Attachments, and UA so its always a 14-17 point commitment overall.

Also note the lateral buff to the Axer animus really helps keep the Krielstone up with the Kriel Warriors.

[Rizzen1]

I think when they get Weaponmaster they will bring it on!
Or get lifepoints. Anybody with me?

Greetz

[typhin]

I would have to agree that KW are not the 4/6 unit that Fenn are. Who isn't going to take at least one if not more WA with the KW. I mean, every time I look at them, who says "mat 7 pow 15 in a three inch line, no thanks".

[MarmaladeChainsaw]

I'd like to clear something up with regards to a comment Sev made. I'm not saying they need a buff. They're good. What I want is to swap a pair of abilities that are so situational as to be near useless, for something more generally useful. Hell, I'd gladly trade both abilities for one more useful one.

That is all.

-MC

[hooksy67]

keep stats the same and give them set defense and reversal from the satyr guy and make them 5/8

[Cannibalbob]

keep stats the same and give them set defense and reversal from the satyr guy and make them 5/8


Reversal might be a bit too much, especially with the bonus from set defense, for an entire unit. If you combined them with the Chronicler the nobody could attack them at all without getting knocked down. That might be too much.

I would be happy with just set defense.

[Vineuk]

Why not just let them have +1 damage dice against anything that charges them. Remove the knockdown but let them keep hard incase of cavery and you got a unit that isn't a smart idea to charge.

[StarmanTTLB]

I add my voice again: change Slash N Snag to "+2 damage to large based models" - if it works to bring down cav, why won't it work on beasts and jacks? Makes them good anti-infantry, and decent anti-heavy.

[hooksy67]

or maybe set defense and gang at 5/8 (maybe a little to much)

[toastix]

I think they are a solid unit as is, but doesn't mean they are perfect. Like a few have said I would like to see hooked blade effect something based on its base size, and I would like to see them have set defense. I think set defense is even fluffy for these guys because cav charge and they are supposed to be good at killing cav. That's the feedback I have left on them.

They fit the role I want them for anyways due to them being a cheap pointed unit, the special rules are just an added bonus.

[Soylent]

To fit the fluff of them standing up to the charge(happened to be Cav in the fluff but it could have been anything), just give them set defense. I'd be really happy with that.