Vayl's feat (and other thoughts)

[Hell]

I thought for certain many months ago that cat and mouse would gain the ability to ignore free strikes, that seemed to be confirmed (in my head) when wings lost that immunity. But now, thanks to crazy tournament play, Vayl's feat works on models during her own turn. So, what needs to be done to fix her feat? Should she just get a new one entirely?

Seeing as how incite is greatly improved (and was needed). I wouldn't mind very much if the feat was kept fairly benign.

Other things I would like to see possibly change slightly are Talion going to one use per turn but transferring all damage since she has so few HP, however I must say I totally dig it being a passive ability now.

[Aedric]

There is nothing wrong with her feat, I'm actually thinking vayl is currently exactly where she needs to be.

Having them ability to attack and reposition your army is fairly good without being overpowered.

[Hell]

It only seems to be useful as a retreat right now. It could be pretty useful during scenario play for sure. However, there are many other feats that do considerable damage, however I should learn to compartmentalize since those are WM feats and H feats are considerably weaker in magnitude (which I'm fine with).

[Aedric]

Yea well she has a good range of spells. I don't expect her to have a super good feat.

[Soulblighter]

Except eThagrosh's spells are very nearly as good as Vayl's and his feat is much better than hers. Unless Vayl gets a better feat I see no real reason to use her over eThagrosh.

[leojond]

I agree, eThag > Vayl.

[greenlock]

Really? eThag has a spell as good as leach? A spell as good as chiller? As good as rampager? In my mind the only spell really worth casting often for eThag thats any better is Dragon blood and that is definetly made up for by the three spells above.

The feat isn't often used all that much for anything other than defensive purposes but it could be used to get behind enemy lines, tie up stuff in their back arcs and box in the opposing caster.

[Neutralyze]

Except eThagrosh's spells are very nearly as good as Vayl's and his feat is much better than hers. Unless Vayl gets a better feat I see no real reason to use her over eThagrosh.


hmm lets see.


small base

higher overall damage output

more chances to hit enemy models through incite + chiller

so are we just comparing feats then? i quite enjoy having my overall damage possibly be higher than just dropping the lowest.

[Karam]

Don't forget she gets to turn any model into an arc node so her spells are where she needs them.

[Soulblighter]

Really? eThag has a spell as good as leach? A spell as good as chiller? As good as rampager? In my mind the only spell really worth casting often for eThag thats any better is Dragon blood and that is definetly made up for by the three spells above.

Huh? Have you even looked at his spell list?

Unnatural Aggression > Leech
Scourge > Hoarfrost
Flesh Eater > Malice
Manifest Destiny = Incite
Dragon's Blood = Chiller
His feat is way better than Vayl's.
His statline is way better than Vayl's.

All Vayl really has going for her is +1 Fury, Oraculus, and Rampager.


more chances to hit enemy models through incite + chiller

I cast Scourge with eThaggy to knock things down and autohit them. Granted thats not always as good as incite+chiller but it would be completely unfair to ignore Scourge as a means for eThagrosh to get his warbeasts to hit high DEF models.

That said I feel Vayl's feat needs to be massively improved. Her feat basically does nothing to contribute to her overall playstyle. Vayl doesnt want to retreat she wants to outmaneuver the opponent. Her old feat reflected that however her new feat does not.

[Necra-Chi]

My version of that:

Unnatural Aggression < Leash (Unnatural aggression is conditional)
Scourge > Hoarfrost
Flesh Eater < Malice (malice can have the same power as flesh eater, for cheaper and more likely to be cast)
Manifest Destiny > Incite (manifest destiny allows you to shoot out of a massive control range and still benefit)
Dragon's Blood < Chiller (Dragon's blood is nice but chiller makes Vayl's assassination runs far more reliable than Thag's)
His feat > Vayl's. (but Vayl's can affect warriors and ignore free strikes)
His statline is way better than Vayl's. (no argument there)

Overall Vayl is about right, E-Thag is a little OTT.

[greenlock]

Huh? Have you even looked at his spell list?

Unnatural Aggression > Leech
Scourge > Hoarfrost
Flesh Eater > Malice
Manifest Destiny = Incite
Dragon's Blood = Chiller
His feat is way better than Vayl's.
His statline is way better than Vayl's.

All Vayl really has going for her is +1 Fury, Oraculus, and Rampager.


Unnatural aggression is worse than leash since it lets your opponent trigger if and where the beast goes while leash lets you choose for yourself. This is undeniably better and everything else about the spells are the same so...

Scourge is never cast, nor should it be unless you are in a real pickle. Possibly if you can get in range of the enemy caster with thagrosh and set him up for the feat round together with the rest of your army but all you'll really need is Manifest destiny.

Speaking of manifest destiny, Incite is just a tiny bit better overall if you go by stats since there aren't all that many crit effects around. Manifest destinys larger area of effect is largely ignorable since eThag will be up there anyway so he'd rather have incite as well. I suppose you could make a case for them wanting to switch spells.

Malice hits at pow 16 with incite against a heavy loaded on fury and is cheaper. In the spells that are just there to give you ability to take care of incorporeal solos I'd say cheapness and range are the most important attributes.

Dragon's blood is indeed good but I'm not sure its as good as chiller. Chiller buffs not only the unit it is being cast on but also other models that are attacking targets close to them effectively. This makes chiller an excellent placeable debuff that you can easily get on the enemy caster with a min unit of raptors or a raek for example. The raptors has a threat of 25" with the deubuff (18" running + 5" cav move after activation + 2" chiller). Meanwhile I'll agree that Dragon's blood on a carnivean is nasty for arm 22 but with eThags in your face style there will probably be other targets as well for them to hit.

Rampager trumps most of these spells against hordes though, it should be cast at every opportunity at a heavy with incite up. This alone makes her spell list superior which was the issue.

Ethag's feat is is indeed better but I don't think that was the issue here. On the statline I'd mostly agree but Vayls Fury of 8 is really nice.

[Soulblighter]

Unnatural Aggression isnt worse than Leash. The power of Unnatural Aggression is that eThagrosh can cast it on himself. eThagrosh getting a double move is a potential game winner. Ive won several games that way.

Scourge is still better than Hoarfrost. I typically dont cast Scourge as much as Manifest Destiny but I do cast Scourge a few times per game. Being able to autohit models like feral warpwolves can make a huge difference.


Malice hits at pow 16 with incite against a heavy loaded on fury and is cheaper.

No it doesnt. Malice is POW10. And no warbeasts have FURY6.


Dragon's blood is indeed good but I'm not sure its as good as chiller.

I feel Dragon's Blood is just as good as Chiller when its cast on Legionnaires. They become ARM19, theres a 1/3 chance enemy infantry will die if they kill a legionnaire, plus you get your vengeance attacks, and you get to spawn your incubi. It becomes an extremely punishing unit to attack.

[Necra-Chi]

Vayl benefits from her own incite silly.

Dragon's blood on legionnaires isn't that good. I've tried it. They still die to shooting, fire, anything, and the blood only does something every now and then.

Unnaturla aggression on E-Thag? Anyone who starts the process of taking on Thag and doesn't finish the job, is probably on their way to losing anyway, and probably deserves it.

Greenlock: its a false assumption that E-Thag will be up in the action. I only do that when most of the threats to him are eliminated or are about to be eliminated, or I'm desperate. Until then the extended reach of manifest destiny is a godsend.

[greenlock]

Greenlock: its a false assumption that E-Thag will be up in the action. I only do that when most of the threats to him are eliminated or are about to be eliminated, or I'm desperate. Until then the extended reach of manifest destiny is a godsend.


Hmm, not actually having played him you might be right about that. But it would depend on what you mean by "up in the action" I think. I'd say eThag looks like a caster that's about 10-11" behind the frontline (his own models, making it 11.5-15" from the enemy models) untill the time comes for him to move in and help out a bit if he can be safe. This compared to Vayl who will typically want to stand about 14-16" from the enemy models which should translate to just a little bit farther away than eThag unless you count Typhon's reach. Fact remains that eThag with Dragon's blood and tenacity on himself with 2 fury should be quite safe from most opponents. A Jack will probably not take him down by itself nor most other threats. Buffed jacks/beasts and casters are still threats though.

Oh, the reference to his in your face style was more in relation to his preferance of keeping preasure on the enemy with several melee threats giving the enemy the option to simply igonore the carvniean, at a price of course, and attack another, easier to kill target for the time being.

[Jaster]

I for one love her feat, I've used it in three main ways; First, charge and withdraw, typically through forests with rabid shredders, flyers, Raeks and Carnivean (keep in mind Rabid's Pathfinder and +2 Speed is until end of turn), dragging them 3' through the forest to prevent retaliation, or if I'm simply faster then them, I can pull out or set it up how they must charge (units I want hit out in front, clogging lanes for free-strikes). Second, is aggressive push, you can sprint to an entire other side of a board with this, leash and shadowstalk, along with Legions high movement and 'ignore everything while moving, other then free strikes', some times you just need to re delpoy and this lets you do it. Lastly, if I'm getting out ranged, I'll make a push with shredders / harriers or lights right out of Vayl's control range to engage gunners till the rest catches up, since I'm immune to free strikes during Cat & Mouse, I can dash right over their lines without fear, sure the Harrier is tied up since it's out of control and won't do much, but just standing there, it will do its job, and the infantry will either need to turn around and deal with it, and get hit in the back, or they'll need to sacrifice the ranged units.

[Soulblighter]

Greenlock: its a false assumption that E-Thag will be up in the action. I only do that when most of the threats to him are eliminated or are about to be eliminated, or I'm desperate. Until then the extended reach of manifest destiny is a godsend.

That might be how YOU play him but its not how I play him. eThag is a game ender if he gets next to the enemy warlock. With 20 wounds and the ability to recover wounds quickly its rather easy to play aggressively with him.

[Neutralyze]

how does he recover wounds quickly?

there shouldnt be a need to play him aggressive. just kill things that wander near you or kill them when they tie up your beasts and what not.

[Soulblighter]

Typhon heals him 3 per turn. Typhon animus heals him 1d3 whenever hes hit. Plus he can heal himself 4 per turn and still cast Manifest Destiny which is the only spell he really needs to cast.

[Neutralyze]

you never stated that typhon was in the list. i mean we could assume but you know what that does.

potentiall he can heal 4 and use MD but that leaves him bare. in most cases if a decent target gets on him he will die.

[Soulblighter]

in most cases if a decent target gets on him he will die.

Which is why you take advantage of the fact he has wings. He can fly over friendly models to get to the enemy warlock. You use friendly models as roadblocks to stop eThagrosh from getting killed. Hes still going to get hit by ranged attacks and what not but ranged attacks in Hordes generally arnt going to kill him.

[Neutralyze]

from personal experience i must admit with much remorse that Ethagrosh died to a marauder earlier this year. apparantly ethags couldnt kill both beast 09 and the marauder in the same activation (shotgun the crap out of tee marauder but left his arms in tact) it was even with karchev this loss came to

this was again when he first came out.

back on track though.

in the perfect world everything would go according to the plan ( you would have your roadblock) but the opponent would also do his best to remove your roadblock and expose you. a feral WW makes easy work of thags along with a wide range of others.

[greenlock]

That might be how YOU play him but its not how I play him. eThag is a game ender if he gets next to the enemy warlock. With 20 wounds and the ability to recover wounds quickly its rather easy to play aggressively with him.

Why typhon's animus and not spiny growth? The added deterent against beasts and jacks should be nicer than the off chance of suffering 1 damage?

[Neutralyze]

SG had a long fight with EH and in the end SG is a static +2 armor and EH is on average reduce damage by healing average of two but you aspects on typhon would never be out. i like static and not random numbers regardless of averages. SG wins in my books unless other circumstances make me think otherwise (ravyn + mage hunter assassins would be typhons animus).

[greenlock]

(ravyn + mage hunter assassins would be typhons animus).

Why? Don't they double damage after arm deduction? So Spiny growts would be doubly effective compared to Excessive healing. Ex. typhon suffers a pow 23 damage roll, with spiny growth he takes (23-19)*2=8dmg and with EH he takes ((23-17)*2)-d3=10dmg. Or am I missing something here?

On my caster I'd prefer SG just about every time unless I expect to take a hit, take the damage and then start to transfer the next few hits, allowing me to heal the damage taken.

[Necra-Chi]

That might be how YOU play him but its not how I play him. eThag is a game ender if he gets next to the enemy warlock. With 20 wounds and the ability to recover wounds quickly its rather easy to play aggressively with him.

I've been playing against myself. I don't make many mistakes. If E-Thag comes out to play too early, he dies. Simple.

Greenlock, there has been quite a bit of debate about excessive healing and spiny growth. Spiny growth is superior when you will be attacked by a warbeast or warjack because it also does damage. Spiny growth is also superior because it can be cast on something else. Its also superior if you don't like playing the odds. Its better if you would die from one final big hit, because you can't heal if you're dead.

But in every other application, particulary against infantry doing a death by a thousand cuts, excessive healing is better. Its difficult to explain but it is because it gives an Effective +2 ARM on average AND fuzzies the boundary of attacks that just exceed ARM. What I mean is that low to medium power attacks often do more average damage than one would expect because you can't get negative damage dragging down the average. Well in the case of excessive healing you can get negative damage because it is possible for damage to result in more healing than the damage lost.

It also helps retain aspects and shuts down auto-pinging abilities.
I think neutralyze meant mage hunter strike force.

[Neutralyze]

Why? Don't they double damage after arm deduction? So Spiny growts would be doubly effective compared to Excessive healing. Ex. typhon suffers a pow 23 damage roll, with spiny growth he takes (23-19)*2=8dmg and with EH he takes ((23-17)*2)-d3=10dmg. Or am I missing something here?

On my caster I'd prefer SG just about every time unless I expect to take a hit, take the damage and then start to transfer the next few hits, allowing me to heal the damage taken.

the 10 man unit with ua that has phanton seeker... thats the mage hunter strike force, good catch on that.

those are very deadly to our low armor warlocks now with snipe and her feat. i lived due to typhons animus on vayl and 2 transfers and a protector nearby.

[greenlock]

Greenlock, there has been quite a bit of debate about excessive healing and spiny growth. Spiny growth is superior when you will be attacked by a warbeast or warjack because it also does damage. Spiny growth is also superior because it can be cast on something else. Its also superior if you don't like playing the odds. Its better if you would die from one final big hit, because you can't heal if you're dead.

But in every other application, particulary against infantry doing a death by a thousand cuts, excessive healing is better. Its difficult to explain but it is because it gives an Effective +2 ARM on average AND fuzzies the boundary of attacks that just exceed ARM. What I mean is that low to medium power attacks often do more average damage than one would expect because you can't get negative damage dragging down the average. Well in the case of excessive healing you can get negative damage because it is possible for damage to result in more healing than the damage lost.


I'd say that's faulty logic there. The only situations where EH would be better than SG is when the chance of 1 damage is higher than the chance of 0 damage + the chance of 2+ damage. I am familiar with the concept of no negative damage and that negative damage exists with Typhon but it only exists if you roll higher than the damage taken in the case that you take damage. Since it doesn't trigger on 0 damage the only practical situation where SG would be worse than EH is against Snipe and similar 1 point auto damage abilities.

[Necra-Chi]

No it matters all the time. Whenever ARM is exceeded, you get an average of 2 wounds back. That's as good as +2 ARM. Whenever you roll more healing than the damage, that better than +2 ARM. That makes it strictly better for reducing average damage.

[greenlock]

No it matters all the time. Whenever ARM is exceeded, you get an average of 2 wounds back. That's as good as +2 ARM. Whenever you roll more healing than the damage, that better than +2 ARM. That makes it strictly better for reducing average damage.

And when you roll a 1 it is worse than +2 arm. And when you aren't damaged you don't get to roll. The issue was where EH was better than SG, not better or equal. If they are equal you might as well have SG. If you, or anyone else, have done any calculations on this please share.

The way I see it, if you are more likely to face something autopinging you than you are faceing a warbeast and you count on surviving to your next turn either way in spite of being hit, by all means go for EH. This doesn't seem all too likely though. If a warbeast or warjack gets to my caster I assume I'm probably getting one hit that would cause a kill and in that case I use SG. I am rarely in the situation where someone is autopinging my caster though.

[Necra-Chi]

That doesn't matter because I could also roll a 3. The average is as good as +2 ARM. The "fuzziness" makes it better against attacks that only just exceed the ARM.

Its also hard to put a value on the saving of aspect so that you don't have to activate a warlock first AND spend fury to heal one point in each dead aspect. So Excessive healing can save 1-2 fury and activation order troubles the next turn.

It's also WAY better against anything that ignores the DEF and ARM from spells, like those mage hunters.

[Soulblighter]

The only time Spiny Growth is better than Excessive Healing is when Spiny Growth's damage would knock out an aspect on the attacking beast.

[Neutralyze]

not true. SG is a consistent number and has its place as such. the randomness of dice rolls regardless of averages can still go against your favor and roll 1's back to back netting it 1 less than SG. on teh other hand it could out do SG.

each has their palce but if i want consistency its SG. plus its not like EH can go on just any model.

[Soulblighter]

not true. SG is a consistent number and has its place as such. the randomness of dice rolls regardless of averages can still go against your favor and roll 1's back to back netting it 1 less than SG. on teh other hand it could out do SG.

The odds of rolling multiple 1s in a row with Excessive Healing arnt very good (1 in 9). Typically Excessive Healing will mirror Spiny Growth's mitigation by the second or third hit.

[Lazlo]

The odds of rolling multiple 1s in a row with Excessive Healing arnt very good (1 in 9). Typically Excessive Healing will mirror Spiny Growth's mitigation by the second or third hit.

And yet in my last game with Typhon he rolled a 1 for ALL of his EH heals. About 6 of them, if I recall.

[Aedric]

I personally really like the fact that excessive healing makes you immune to auto point damage. I have two friends that regularly field widow makers and sword knights.

[Necra-Chi]

I can't remember, does excessive healing work against monster hunter? Because that's also very useful if it does.

[greenlock]

That doesn't matter because I could also roll a 3. The average is as good as +2 ARM. The "fuzziness" makes it better against attacks that only just exceed the ARM.

Its also hard to put a value on the saving of aspect so that you don't have to activate a warlock first AND spend fury to heal one point in each dead aspect. So Excessive healing can save 1-2 fury and activation order troubles the next turn.

It's also WAY better against anything that ignores the DEF and ARM from spells, like those mage hunters.

I agree about the aspects and about the mage hunters but as this discussion pertains the use of the animus on the warlock the aspect "aspect" is moot. The reference to the roll of a 1 was about you statement of a 3 makeing it better than SG ;) The only way I'd ever use EH on my warlock is if I face autopingers, if I face only warriors as a threat without a single doubt in my mind or whatever is about to attack me has blessed weapons/arcane killer (no jacks or beasts has this do they? In that case this last criteria isn't an issue).


The only time Spiny Growth is better than Excessive Healing is when Spiny Growth's damage would knock out an aspect on the attacking beast.

And the damage from SG doesn't count for anything next round where an extra 8 damage on a beast makes it easier to kill it?