Fixing the Seraph

[Soulblighter]

The way I see it theres three ways to fix the Seraph. Currently im favoring option #2, but option #3 has certain appeal because I generally like the idea of the Seraph and Angelius sharing the same statline.

1) Seraph stays as is but has its points cost reduced to 7 points. I think everyone agrees that the current Seraph is worth no more than 7 points. Personally I dont care much for this fix though.

2) Seraph gets Strafe [2d3]. This gets rid of the much maligned roll of "1" and the bell curve significantly reduces the chances of rolling an overpowered "5" or "6". As a result the Seraph's damage becomes much more normalized.

3) Seraph loses Strafe but gains +2 RNG, +1 FURY, and ROF3. This has the roughly the same effect as if the Seraph rolled a "3" for Strafe. The Seraph also becomes slightly better in melee due to being FURY4. Since this option is clearly weaker than #2, the Seraph could also gain +1 SPD and +1 ARM and share the same statline as the Angelius.

While ROF:2 has also been proposed as a fix, I dont consider ROF:2 to be a good fix because it increases the upper damage limit of the Seraph too much. Giving the Seraph the potential to make seven RAT7 POW14 shots is overpowered. We need to normalize the Seraphs damage not increase its overall damage potential.

[Necra-Chi]

Is there a precedent for strafe 2D3? That could be good. I would go for that. I am a bit concerned that ROF 2 (the only other good suggestion I've seen) would allow the seraph to shoot a totally different area, which I don't think is the design intent. I'm less worried about it getting 7 shots because that's what it used to be able to get.

[Soulblighter]

The Trencher Chaingun used to be Strafe[2d3] in MK1. They changed it to Strafe[1d3] in MK2. So there is precedent for Strafe being something other than [d6].


I'm less worried about it getting 7 shots because that's what it used to be able to get.

The Seraph was overpowered in MK1. You cant use the MK1 Seraph as the baseline for whats acceptable in MK2. Seven shots isnt okay because nothing else in MK2 puts out that kind of firepower. The MK2 Seraph with the ability to make 5 or 6 shots is already pushing the limit of whats acceptable in MK2. The only thing keeping the current MK2 Seraph balanced is its unbiased tendency to roll 1s and 2s as often as 5s and 6s. However I think most of us have realized by now that making the Seraph's number of attacks completely erratic as a means of balancing it simply doesnt work. We shouldnt have to play the lottery every turn to see if our 8 point warbeast actually gets to do something. It needs to be more reliable than that.

[Necra-Chi]

On second thought I suspect that as much as I like the 2D3 idea, it would actually make it a little TOO reliable. You would frequently get 3 or 4 shots. I doubt that PP want it to that reliably get 3-4 shots, mainly because that is the sweet spot for strafe. 1 or 2 shots often suck and 5 and 6 shots often get wasted.

Strafe D6 with ROf 2 is still very random and the big difference is that unlike Mk1, you have to pay (force) for the additional shot. In mk 1 you usually but not always had to boost the first attack, but at least you had a hit! With the ROF 2 idea you would be forcing the same fury just to approximate the output of a Mk1 Seraph but wouldn't have gotten a boost out of it.

I also don't think it is unreasonable to have a similar output as a Mk1 seraph, when the relative price has been increased significantly (2 points).

I'm pretty sure the cyclone is going to be putting out a similar or greater amount of firepower than the seraph, and will have two open fists and probably not be much more expensive if it is more expensive at all.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

2d6 and drop the lowest for the number of shots generated. Makes it insane like it should be, and adds a little more reliability.

[Soulblighter]

Unfortunately 2d6 and drop the lowest doesnt integrate well with the current rules. You would have to add a special rule specifically for the Seraph. While just making it Strafe [2d3] is an extremely simple change and very nearly the same thing.

[Necra-Chi]

Its just as easy to make it Strafe [D6+1] ;)

[chrsjxn]

I'd feel alright if it was: Strafe [3].

[Necra-Chi]

I'd feel alright if it was: Strafe [3].

:cool: That's another good suggestion.

[Soulblighter]

On second thought I suspect that as much as I like the 2D3 idea, it would actually make it a little TOO reliable. You would frequently get 3 or 4 shots. I doubt that PP want it to that reliably get 3-4 shots, mainly because that is the sweet spot for strafe. 1 or 2 shots often suck and 5 and 6 shots often get wasted.

For 8 points it should be THAT reliable.

Im fairly certain we can expect a nerf to Incite anyway. When Legion players themselves are screaming about how broken Incite is you know PP cant ignore it. I wouldnt be surprised at all if we see Incite turn into a lesser effect like Eye of Menoth instead (of course it would have to be renamed).

[Necra-Chi]

How do you know what legion players are asking for in feedback?

[Soulblighter]

How do you know what legion players are asking for in feedback?

I just know what ive read on the forums. The general consensus seems to be that Incite is largely responsible for our warbeasts being overcosted. Even you yourself have admitted that Incite might be overpowered. Besides with all the complaints about Incite by other factions I think we can probably assume its going to get nerfed. And honestly it needs to be nerfed. So does Manifest Destiny.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

How about old ratlingun rules?
Roll a D6, then keep rolling until you get doubles.

[alchahest]

bringing incite down at this stage is not going to make all of our beasts better.

[Jbradlyn]

What is wrong with Incite? I do not see how it is overpowered.

As far as the Seraph goes....I dunno I like option 2 the most but its hard to say that would make it worth its points also..... I guess I will have to go try it out!

[greenlock]

The general consensus seems to be that Incite is largely responsible for our warbeasts being overcosted.

I can assure you that the general consensus says no such thing and claiming it does in an effort to prove some point is not only harming your argument but insulting everyone on the boards. A wink to some faceless general consensus is never a good argument.



While ROF:2 has also been proposed as a fix, I dont consider ROF:2 to be a good fix because it increases the upper damage limit of the Seraph too much. Giving the Seraph the potential to make seven RAT7 POW14 shots is overpowered. We need to normalize the Seraphs damage not increase its overall damage potential.

The thing is, with RoF 2 you'd probably never shoot the full 7 shots even if you could theoretically since you'd probably rather have boosts to hit or boosts to damage. The only time I'd see you going fot the full 7 shots is when you shoot at something with, at a glance, 14def/arm 14 or def 12/arm 16. Otherwise you'd be better off with the boosts on shots that hit in most cases.