Swordsmen why so expensive?

[Zazoo]

I dont know if Swordsmen are paying a premium prince for fearless but i did a comparison versus other 5/8 1 wound costing units and they all have far more abilities than the swordsmen.

Any idea why?

[Garth]

The next funny thing is that the UA costs 3, but doesn't offer much.
The UA of the swordsmen is perhaps the worst in the game.

[Zazoo]

I think the UA is expensive because both models that form it have 5 wounds whereas other UA's only have a single 5 wound model.

Just a guess?!

Ill make sure I add some feedback regarding the swordsmen and a comparison of thier performance versus other units with a similar function.

[Garth]

Yeah, every UA with 2 5hp members costs 3 points.

But there are UAs with useful abilities. And there is the swordsmen UA.
What does it give ? An extra attack after a kill to a unit with no reach and magical weapons.

Yeah, magical weapons, we don't have much. But magical weapons on a melee unit ? Not the most useufl thing I can think off.

Up to now I prefer the Legionnaries every time. If the swordsmen had a really good UA they could get some playtime again.

The funny thing is: In MK I it was the other way around. Now both units switched place...

[luvdiscgolf]

It depends on what faction you're playing against. One of my regular opponents primarily plays Cryx so having the fearless Blighted Swordsmen is great.

[Petezilla]

There would be something very wrong with the world if swordsmen where a 4/6 unit.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

You're looking at a relatively unchanged unit.

they're fast on the charge, getting 9" threat range. That's not bad. Include Weapon Master and Fearless and we're styling. They are hitting POW 10+4d6 on the charge, easily tearing up an opposing unit of equal value.

The UA is probably costed as such because it adds 3 attacks and 2 multi-wound models to our bunch.

I'm not totally sure.

Blighted Legionnaires, on the other hand, are cheap because they lack fearless and so on.

In an army where some warcasters are even abominations, Fearless is probably priced more for us.

[Bearded Dragon]

THey are still defense 14 too.

I agree that the UA could get reworked to have a little more impact, but it's 3 points because both of the models in the UA are fighters. Lots of ua have a standard bearer just hanging around waving a flag. All of the UA's I can think of where the second guy actually has a weapon are 3 points (other than Winterguard). Striders, Idrians, Stormblades, and Swordsmen all fall into this category.

[Jice_]

Because it's not a case of Swordsmen being priced to much, it's the legionares being priced to little.

A unit of 6 legionares is worth 4pts, but a unit of 10 should be 7pts. (Much like how Ret Halbadiers are priced.) Vengance makes thoes extra bodies so much more vaulable than in just the base unit. And I don't think there isn't a legion player who wouldn't pay 7 if they want a full unit in their army. But currently, it's too much of a no brainer which is why they make so many lists even if they aren't needed in them.

Swordsmen still have thier problems. The UA is priced as is for it's combat ability, not it's tactics. I mean I'm sure we could get it to be a 2 point unit by chopping out Cleave and Defencive strike, just giving the unit magic weapons and more bodies. But as its sits, adding 3 extra weapons to a unit is going to have to be an expensive endeavor, otherwise it turns into another no brainer to get everything plus one, for cheap.

The problem seems to be that the granted abilities are too situational. Magic weapons need specific targets, and Cleave needs models to clump (and we all know opponents will cooperate with you right?:rolleyes:) Without going overboard, what would be the best thing to replace thoes with, or how do you change them so they're not as situational but also not broken?

Personally, I think they'd be better off with an ability that makes them Rhyas-ish, in that they get a Defencive bonus for making a kill so they can stick around a bit longer to do it again. Tactics: Deathshadow, would be the easy compairison. Other ideas might include gaining Reposte, Steady, Tough, Set deffence, Perfect Ballence, or Dodge after boxing a model, or depending on the ability, as a tactics/granted. I think Dodge/Repost with Steady would be my vote due to thier upper end deffence and it would be very Characterfull for a bunch of Ninja's.

[Nargacuga]

The only time you would ever use cleave is under Rhyas' feat which gives an extra attack anyways.

Granted: Riposte = very cool

Toss Tenacity on some frontline models for an extra boost and they will do nicely~

[dhow tocor]

I wish they would be DEF 15 again. Now they are not as much of a roadblock. Though I haven't met an opponent who liked having destroyed half my swordsmen in one round and not have them flee.

[Bearded Dragon]

As far as I know, Swordsmen were never defense 15.


Without going overboard, what would be the best thing to replace thoes with, or how do you change them so they're not as situational but also not broken?


I could see tactics Overtake added in with Tactics Cleave to make the UA a tasty option to take.

[Devilsquid]

I think people are looking at the Swordmen UA the wrong way. They're not there to make the unit 'more killy', even they though they do add more attacks (and even defensive strike and combo strike from the champ).

The UA brings dimension to the swordsmen. Alone, they're a unit that charges up and chops down tough units and hard targets, thanks to weapon masters. But they're near useless against cheap fodder troops where their +4D6 of damage is pure overkill.

The UA give them options that a "KILLZ YOU" unit normally doesn't have. They're now a threat to anything incorporeal or can't be hurt except by magic (something Legion doesn't have a lot of access to) and they have cleave to help them thin out the ranks of infantry that they might face.

Personally, i'm glad the UA gives them more dimension instead of making them "MOAR KILLY". They're killy enough as is.

[alchahest]

I really, really like swordsmen. magic weapons means nothing, not even pistol wraiths, can ignore them.

[Jaster]

I'd preffer to trade Tactics: Cleave with something better to the soldiers (Bit more killing power / survivability, something), Cleaves just not that great without reach or something that will let you move after a swing. That said, I don't think the Swordsmen are that bad, though the UA is pricey (the Champ however is nice just as a 5 Wound psudo-Solo, two weapons with Magical, and cleave if you miss something with the first attack). Since Fearless was gutted from the game, they fill a valued niche that you'll be glad to have as an option against some opponents (Play against Warmongers, Thagrosh or Cryx and you'll know what I mean).

[mutantias]

I like the swordsmen better then the Legionnaires, the swordsmen are more offensive and that counts for alot in this game and especially in Legion, the UA is somewhat lackluster but quite nice, the champion hits hard as hell with his combo strike. Against jacks/beasts the swordsmen has the advantage i would say but if you can get enough models within range of a caster CMA sure is nice.

[alchahest]

with the UA, swordsmen are versatile. no matter what they're attacking, they have goot MAT, and hit hard, especially on a charge. with the UA, it lets them wade into infantry swarms and kill more. Normally, you can pile on 3+ swordsmen onto a hard model like a jack, and get some really massive hits in on a charge. (average 22 damage pre-armour) which is enough to box most single wound warriors, and with a decent roll, can box or kill multi-wound warriors. they can systematically start tearing down a jack or beast, though you will have to be ready to lose some or all on the counterattack. they're not perfect, but for eight points, ten fearless models that can hit things decently hard is not even a little bad.

[Thunder_God]

Compare the Swordsmen to the Bane Thralls.
Swordsmen do not need to be 4/6, but they're also not 5/8.
They're 5/7.

As for the UA, I long wracked my brain on Cleave, because they won't get that many targets, right? Cleave is what happens when you face a ranged enemy, you reach the enemy with 5-6 models, and then kill the whole enemy unit, if they're not positioned right.
Cleave is how to still do damage with a fraction of the unit surviving.

I still think they need the anti ranged/magic defense to be worth 3.

But yeah, they even got a slight boost, now they benefit from both Cleave and Wraith Bane every activation, and everyone can charge across rough terrain.
But if before the UA cost you as much as 3 swordsmen and gave you 3 attacks, now it costs more than 3 (3.6 if you only buy minimum, 3.75 if you buy full unit), and only gives you 3 attacks, so it's not an auto include by any stretch.

[Defenstrator]

My problem with the Swordsmen is that they die really easily. I'm lucky to make it across the field with half the unit.

As for the UA, it's not really worth it. I can't say it isn't priced appropriately because you are getting two solid guys who are owrth one point each, and cleave/magic weapons for the other point. But against many targets the cleave/magic weapon doesn't do anything, and I don't need more killy guys in my killy guy unit. What I need is some way to make them stay alive, like the way the Sea Witch does for Satyxis.

[jonconcarne]

I'm just curious as to what lists other people are bringing these guys in. I'm still working around what works well with other models, and what is worth not putting in a list to fit them in. Whenever I'm listbuilding, I tend to put in my beasts and support, and a min unit of infantry first. I just have been putting legionnaires in since I can get a full unit of them so much easier. They seem decent, but I just haven't found any urge to try and fit them into a list.

Basically, why would you take the swordsmen instead of the legionnaires?

[blitzmonkey]

Instead of cleave, I think it would be better to have something where they get +2 def against ranged and magic attacks. 16 def would go a long way in getting them into melee and make the UA a LOT better of an option.

[Neutralyze]

they are expensive because they are paying a premium for WM and fearless.

[Angelust]

I think Cleave helps to answer the problem of shield-wall proliferation, and Defensive Line. With lots of core infantry units getting ARM 18 when shieldwalled, having weapon-masters with cleave can help clear lines of IFP or other "legionaire-equivilant" units.

Having a decent defense means that mat6 infantry attacking back will need 8s to hit, which offers them some decent protection.

However, I agree that they're kind of pricey for what they do. Currently our casters can buff beasts to do their role much more efficiently and with greater buffs. A rabid shredder is 2 points, and will almost guarantee a kill on non-8wound high arm shieldwallers (or Bastions and their like), and it also produces fury/transference/tenacity. At twice the cost, twelve times the hit points, and so much caster-love, I'd rather take 4-5 shredders than 12 UA'ed swordsmen....

[blitzmonkey]

I think Cleave helps to answer the problem of shield-wall proliferation, and Defensive Line. With lots of core infantry units getting ARM 18 when shieldwalled, having weapon-masters with cleave can help clear lines of IFP or other "legionaire-equivilant" units.

Having a decent defense means that mat6 infantry attacking back will need 8s to hit, which offers them some decent protection.

However, I agree that they're kind of pricey for what they do. Currently our casters can buff beasts to do their role much more efficiently and with greater buffs. A rabid shredder is 2 points, and will almost guarantee a kill on non-8wound high arm shieldwallers (or Bastions and their like), and it also produces fury/transference/tenacity. At twice the cost, twelve times the hit points, and so much caster-love, I'd rather take 4-5 shredders than 12 UA'ed swordsmen....


Is this because the swordsmen are underpowered or shredders are overpowered?

[Angelust]

I'm not sure I'd call it a power issue, but a versatility issue.

Swordsmen for their points have decent enough power, I think, but they're quite vulnerable to things like blasts, boosted attacks, high RAT guns, etc. If they filled another role in the army rather than beatstick, I think they'd be pretty decent.

As it is, Legion has plenty of fragile beatsticks, and IMO, better more durable beatsticks in things like Shredders and Incubi. If they're more of an attrition unit, meant to slow down alpha strikes and beast/caster 1-turn kills, then they're too expensive and fragile to fill the role, whereas Legionaires got a major nod in that department with their inexpensive 6pt pricetag.

I still have a whole squad, and plan to use them with an (I hope!) improved Rhyas, but I think they'll require some major caster love to be better.

Something at least to make them harder to kill at range, such as force barrier or a 1 round mini-feat of stealth or something...

[Necra-Chi]

The feedback I gave on swordsmen is that I compared them with knights exemplar as a min unit. They're worse than knights exemplar and that is really bad because knights exemplar suck.

They should be 4/6. This would give us a more offensive version of legionnaires at the same price, letting legionnaires do their own job while the swordsmen can be thrown forward aggressively and make excellent incubi hosts. Then finally the model that the incubus is based on, a swordsman, would make sense!

I would love it if I could justify swordsmen for their cost as an agressive but largely expendable unit that is a significant enough threat that they have to be dealt with, releasing incubi into teh enemy ranks, incubi with models that make it look like they actually came out of those hosts.

At their present cost they just die too quickly and don't offer the rewards worth finding ways to keep them alive. Add more dudes and the UA and you just compound the fundamental flaw (overpriced) even more.

They're also extremely hurt by swamp gobbers losing the ability to give a unit concealment. That was very useful.

[Jorek]

I would like the Swordsmen loose fearless, gain cheap (cost 4/6). And the Legionaires gain fearless and cost 5/8. This way both would really fit their fluff and their respective roles (offensive vs defensive). Then give the Swordsmen UA something less situational/opponent dependent, and there´s a real choice between full Legionaires and full Swordmen+UA.

[Necra-Chi]

How does lack of fearless on swordsmen fit their fluff? How does fearless on legionnaires fit their fluff? Legionnaires are still relatively normal (for elves) and sane. Swordsmen are totally bonkers and wouldn't even know something is scary even if its eating them.

[Thunder_God]

Legionnaires are the bodyguards of Thagrosh, no? He's an Abomination? Well, maybe his CMD of 10 helps them do well :D

Though to be honest, any group's God should strike the fear of, well, God, into its followers ;)

[alchahest]

legionnaires are our only grunts with 9 CMD. so no matter who dies in a legionnaire group, they're still solid

[Necra-Chi]

Legionnaires are the bodyguards of Thagrosh, no? He's an Abomination? Well, maybe his CMD of 10 helps them do well :D

Though to be honest, any group's God should strike the fear of, well, God, into its followers ;)

They don't stay by his side because of his good looks, they would much rather be somewhere else, very far away. They stay beside him because of his "magnetic personality" and "persuasive charms". :D

[Soulblighter]

I was actually surprised Legionnaires were 4/6 and Swordsmen were 5/8. I definitely wouldve figured it would be the other way around. Legionnaires feel too cheap at 4/6 and Swordsmen feel too expensive at 5/8.

[Mezzanine]

The big problem with the Swordsmen is that 10 Swordsmen cost 2 more points than 10 Legionaires. The UA is also pricey. Imo, one or more of the following needs to happen:

1)Swordsmen need to be cheaper (5/7)
2)Legionaries need to be more expensive (4/7)
3)Swordsmen should gain some sort of defense against ranged/magic attacks and AOEs. A warlock with Deflection or Force Field would go a long way.
4)Cleave should be something better like Flashing Blade as an ability.

I really don't think 3 is the answer. As odd as it sounds, Swordsmen have always been an elite cannon fodder unit. They are Hosts for Incubi, blood tokens for the Pot (which needs to get better but lets assume it does) and escorts for the Champion. The fact that they are Weapon Masters makes them a great threat so your opponent always targets them with Chain Lightning or AOEs and whatever they can and the unit whittles down as they approach. They are a glass cannon melee unit and the few that get to your opponent just need to lay the hurt more than they do now. An ability like Flashing Blade (melee attacks hit everyone in melee range and LOS), even if it was a minifeat, would mean that they are a unit that specializing in taking out Shield Wall units, Defensive formations and Troll/Jack/Beast bricks. That would make the UA worth 3pts.

[Sabin]

Other weaponmasters with decent Mat are comparable points, Swordsmen also have defence 14 armour 13, which is higher then the average (13, 12 generally) and that defence makes a big difference, in a standing fight between swordsmen and dawnguard the swordsmen will likely come out on top due to the difficulty hitting them vs. weapon master trumping high armour.

[Necra-Chi]

Where did you get 13/12 generally?

Compare 6 swordsmen with 6 knights exemplar, their closest equivalents.

[Mezzanine]

Other weaponmasters with decent Mat are comparable points, Swordsmen also have defence 14 armour 13, which is higher then the average (13, 12 generally) and that defence makes a big difference, in a standing fight between swordsmen and dawnguard the swordsmen will likely come out on top due to the difficulty hitting them vs. weapon master trumping high armour.
And? 14/13 gets chewed up by AOEs and infantry removal just fine. I dont think anyone is worried about their durability in a standing fight. They are focused on getting them there.

[Soulblighter]

Knights Exemplar are SPD5, Nyss Swordsmen are SPD6 (Nyss win)
Knights Exemplar are DEF12, Nyss Swordsmen are DEF14 (Nyss win)
Knights Exemplar are ARM15, Nyss Swordsmen are ARM13 (KE win)
Knights Exemplar are P+S11, Nyss Swordsmen are P+S10 (KE win)
Both units have weaponmaster and fearless
Knights Exemplar have Bond of Brotherhood, Nyss have nothing (KE win)
Knights Exemplar have Magical Weapon, Nyss have nothing (KE win)

Obviously Knights are better. And im fairly certain Protectorate has much better infantry buffs than we do. I definitely think an ability or two should be transferred from our Swordsmen UA to our Swordsmen unit and the cost of our Swordsmen UA should go down to 2 points. Id be happy with that.

[Necra-Chi]

Either or. If they had cleave all the time, or they cost 4/6 they would be great. They don't have reach, defensive line, CMA or vengeance like legionnaires after all, they only have weaponmaster (on a weaker sword) and fearless, and are more susceptible to AOEs. Possibly both of them should be 4/7 or 5/7.

[Sabin]

Knights Exemplar are SPD5, Nyss Swordsmen are SPD6 (Nyss win)
Knights Exemplar are DEF12, Nyss Swordsmen are DEF14 (Nyss win)
Knights Exemplar are ARM15, Nyss Swordsmen are ARM13 (KE win)
Knights Exemplar are P+S11, Nyss Swordsmen are P+S10 (KE win)
Both units have weaponmaster and fearless
Knights Exemplar have Bond of Brotherhood, Nyss have nothing (KE win)
Knights Exemplar have Magical Weapon, Nyss have nothing (KE win)

Obviously Knights are better. And im fairly certain Protectorate has much better infantry buffs than we do. I definitely think an ability or two should be transferred from our Swordsmen UA to our Swordsmen unit and the cost of our Swordsmen UA should go down to 2 points. Id be happy with that.

Exemplars also run around in units of 6 without a UA.

The swords are unpowered compared to the Legioneers but I am still not entirely convinced the legioneers are not overpowered. One suggestion I will make for the swordsmen is force barrier, that would take away their major weakness (aoes) and their defence should make them worthwhile at Pow10 no reach in combat.

[Aedric]

Force barrier doesn't really fit their fluff at all. I can't see them getting it.

If they had CMA they definitely would be worth it.

[Necra-Chi]

Sabin, What does that have to do with it? I'd still take two units of knights exemplar over a full swordsmen unit with UA, at a 1 point bargain. Same number of models, far better staying power and damage output. Both have magical weapons then. Cleave is the swordsmen's only real advantage and that is situational.

Its really bad when you're losing in a comparison with knights exemplar, who are pretty poor themselves.

[Jice_]

Its really bad when you're losing in a comparison with knights exemplar, who are pretty poor themselves.

But if they were 4/6 then they'd totally beat the pants off Swordknights..:3

I made a homebrew unit in the Ret forums of soulless and gave them Terror since they would be emotionless killers who care little about thier own or others deaths which can be quite demoalising to others fighting them (Imagine Pheonix guard)..Maybe it would be a suitable Advantage on the Swordsmen as well.

[Defenstrator]

Everything beats the pants off Swordknights. Swordknights are just bad and every Cygnar player not in denial knows it.

[Loveless]

Knights Exemplar are SPD5, Nyss Swordsmen are SPD6 (Nyss win)
Knights Exemplar are DEF12, Nyss Swordsmen are DEF14 (Nyss win)
Knights Exemplar are ARM15, Nyss Swordsmen are ARM13 (KE win)
Knights Exemplar are P+S11, Nyss Swordsmen are P+S10 (KE win)
Both units have weaponmaster and fearless
Knights Exemplar have Bond of Brotherhood, Nyss have nothing (KE win)
Knights Exemplar have Magical Weapon, Nyss have nothing (KE win)

Obviously Knights are better. And im fairly certain Protectorate has much better infantry buffs than we do. I definitely think an ability or two should be transferred from our Swordsmen UA to our Swordsmen unit and the cost of our Swordsmen UA should go down to 2 points. Id be happy with that.

Wow, those are good points I wasn't thinking of... Hmm...

[Zazoo]

The reason for the post in the first place was I looked at Tharn Blood trackers that are the same price but have so many more abilities and wondered why the difference.

Tharm Trackers SPD 7, MAT 6 (8 With Prey), RAT 6, DEF 14, ARM 11, CMD 8
Advance Deployment, Pathfinder, Stealth, Prey
Thrown Javelin (P+S 9, 11 with prey) with Weapon master

Ok so they dont have fearless but they beat swordmasters in all other ways.

I just dont get it.

[Shadowspite]

not quite, Swordsmen are more damaging to things they charge, bloodtrackers are weaponmasters on their ranged attacks, and so they can't be boosted, so at beast they are getting 3d6, swordsmen can get 4d6. but ya, I'd rather have bloodtrackers :P

[Awefaw]

If legionnaires had their mk1 stats back with vengeance and were pointed the same as swordsmen who would you take.

[Mezzanine]

If legionnaires had their mk1 stats back with vengeance and were pointed the same as swordsmen who would you take.
Swordsmen by a slight margin with everyone but P/EThag but thats because their mk1 stats had CMD 8.

Speed 6, CMD 9 Vengies would prob be on par with Swordsmen. Speed 5, CMD 9 Vengies with Ranked Attack would also be at least as useful as Swordsmen. Vengies is almost as bad as Legos. Need something quick and catchy to call these guys since they're getting play now. BLs? Aires?

[Necra-Chi]

How about 'Naires

[Awefaw]

So is it the change to vengeance or is it fewer models having fearless what closed the gap between the units?

[Thunder_God]

I still think the Swordsmen need to be compared to Bane Thralls. Even if we forget their feat and Tartarus shenanigans, same cost, lower DEF but stealth, higher armour, undead(!) and Dark Shroud basically makes them PS 13 weapon masters. They do only have MAT 6, which is a bonus to the swordsmen, but I'd take them over.

Honestly, we've seen PP can do 6/9, 6/10 and 7/10 units, so why not go, indeed, for 5/7 on the swordsmen? I think it'll be better. And yes, the legionnaires can also go that way. Even 4/7 for one of the units is feasible, probably the legionnaires (who gain more with a larger unit due to vengeance, the UA is another matter, because any unit might get a UA at some point).

[Mezzanine]

1. The change in what fleeing means. Sacing an activation instead of flying off the board is a big deal when it comes to Hosts.
2. Vengence is also a big plus in my opinion.
3. There wasn't a huge difference between the units in mk1. Just a slight difference with the same cost

[withershadow]

I'd be more upset about the overpriced swordsmen if their models weren't so ugly. The fact that the UA are so good just makes the grunts look that much worse.

[Jice_]

Everything beats the pants off Swordknights. Swordknights are just bad and every Cygnar player not in denial knows it.

Thats why I added the ':3' I know they're the weakest 4/6 unit. But if they are valued at 4/6 than it's feasable that swordsmens aren't actually all that overpriced, they just need that half a point "oomf" to put them where they are supposed to be at 5/8.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

I'd probably pay 7 points for Legionnaires, but no more. Legionnaires go hand-in-hand with Incubi, so we're looking at 12 points right there.

They work SO well when given a good upkeep ARM spell. "C'mon guy, kill one, I dare you!"

[Loveless]

In Mk. I, didn't the Abbot allow Swordsmen to take the option to gain Pathfinder on the charge?

What if we brought that back in some way - either an innate ability on the unit (no need to change point costs then), or an additional ability on the UA (which would definitely make it worth closer to 3).

If I'm completely out of my mind and that wasn't available in Mk. I, then what about adding it? :p

[ricefrisbeetreats]

Why not (Order) Relentless Charge - During this unit's activation, models in this unit gain PATHFINDER icon.

BAM!