The MkII cards...

[Jeh313]

I know this was covered on the old boards... But last night I played my first MkII game using an actuall MkII card...Dannon Blythe & Bull.

Ouch. As Feared, I had to pick the card up every time I needed to check a stat. The font is waaaaaay too small. I know my eyes aren't the best, but even with my reading gl***** I had to squint and move the card up to my face. I'm so bummed. I know there were discussions about the small art, and overly busy background, but I could live with that, though I'm still not a fan. The tiny print however...I'm at a loss, It's going to slow down my games considerably when I have a whole army worth of new cards to manage. Stats, text, Icons...all shouldv'e been bigger. Sadly I know its too late and printing has been locked. I'm jsut so bummed that the powers that be didn't take the oppurtunity to fix this at the last minute.

Please privateer, give us some sort of option.

*oh, thats reading spectacles I guess...haha

[Faultie]

I just got my Basher and DB&B, and I love the new cards. The text doesn't seem any smaller than many of my MKI cards, at least to me.
I think they look good, are characterful, and I like the glossy finish (dry-erase-ready!)

I just wanted to toss out an additional opinion.

[whicken]

You've probably heard this recommendation before, but try scanning the cards and printing them at double size - it's a pain to do, but you'll appreciate it while playing the game if the current cards are giving you grief, it really makes a difference.

[Caecus Scius]

hahah, I think people should buy those OWL things advertised on late night television...

http://images.seenontv.com/prod-pages/images1/OWL-Thumb.jpg

[knight_actual]

Been playing with MkII cards for a while now with RET.

Has not been a problem.

Has not gotten stuff confused b/c of small window

[ricefrisbeetreats]

Been playing with MkII cards for a while now with RET.

Has not been a problem.

Has not gotten stuff confused b/c of small window

I think I'll have trouble with the Charger and Lancer. From the battle box sheets we could print, those gave me trouble.

[Jeh313]

thanks for the scanning and reprint option... might have to try that. I don't even need it double...an extra 25% may do it.

Oh, and as a response to the first reply...They stats seem smaller to me...if theyre not than the busy surroundings are worse than I thought.

[megatron0]

same no problems at alll with the ret font all good and clear

[BloodyGums]

I know this was covered on the old boards... But last night I played my first MkII game using an actuall MkII card...Dannon Blythe & Bull.

Ouch. As Feared, I had to pick the card up every time I needed to check a stat. The font is waaaaaay too small. I know my eyes aren't the best, but even with my reading gl***** I had to squint and move the card up to my face. I'm so bummed. I know there were discussions about the small art, and overly busy background, but I could live with that, though I'm still not a fan. The tiny print however...I'm at a loss, It's going to slow down my games considerably when I have a whole army worth of new cards to manage. Stats, text, Icons...all shouldv'e been bigger. Sadly I know its too late and printing has been locked. I'm jsut so bummed that the powers that be didn't take the oppurtunity to fix this at the last minute.

Please privateer, give us some sort of option.

*oh, thats reading spectacles I guess...haha

I photo copied the cards to a larger size and placed them in a somewhat nice booklet.. So I too dont have to struggle over read the font 2 size words..

[Erebos]

Make better cards for personal use because PP Matt Wilson himself has said that they won't help this issue in any way.

[Jeh313]

Are homemade cards legal for tournament play? assume yes, but it would stink to show up and be denied because I had made my own set of cards.

[PPS_Simon]

Are homemade cards legal for tournament play? assume yes, but it would stink to show up and be denied because I had made my own set of cards.

Definitely not on their own. However, exceptions can probably be made if you have enlarged rules due to poor eyesight and you bring the real cards along with you for your opponent's benefit. Like most tournament rules this is ultimately at the whim of the event's organizers but homemade cards will never be permitted at official events like Master's or Hardcore without very special circumstances.

[Annichka]

I like them, and Have no problem reading them. I just keep forgetting where the focus is lol

[Snakeman]

Are homemade cards legal for tournament play? assume yes, but it would stink to show up and be denied because I had made my own set of cards.


Definitely not on their own. However, exceptions can probably be made if you have enlarged rules due to poor eyesight and you bring the real cards along with you for your opponent's benefit. Like most tournament rules this is ultimately at the whim of the event's organizers but homemade cards will never be permitted at official events like Master's or Hardcore without very special circumstances.

Yeah, what Simon said. If you came to my event with home-made large print cards because of eyesight issues, I'd want two things: 1) a heads up about it before the event beings and 2) for you to have the official PP cards handy for your opponent's benefit.

The second one is, quite frankly, to make sure that the stats/abilities on your home-made cards are accurate. I know 99.9999% of the WM/H players I've encountered over the years are honorable people who would not use such a situation as an opportunity to cheat, but the one guy that will isn't exactly going to advertise the fact either so it becomes a matter of universal "trust but verify" so that everyone can have confidence in the event.

Heck, with my eyesight these days, I just may be showing up with my own large-print cards too.

[whitekong]

Definitely not on their own. However, exceptions can probably be made if you have enlarged rules due to poor eyesight and you bring the real cards along with you for your opponent's benefit. Like most tournament rules this is ultimately at the whim of the event's organizers but homemade cards will never be permitted at official events like Master's or Hardcore without very special circumstances.
Thats funny when I played hardcore at gen-con no one even looked at my cards, including me. There is no time to be looking at cards during hardcore.;)

[Kaptain Von]

Font size isn't the only factor that contributes to readability, and some of the previous posts have acknowledged that.

[Ruth]

hahah, I think people should buy those OWL things advertised on late night television...


Hah hah?

Many people have problems with their vision, many people have problems with reading altogether. It isn't funny and shouldn't be laughed at.

I'm quite shocked really, because the attitude shown by some in this thread seems that it would be enough to put off many people with genuine issues from even asking!
And I'm quite surprised that anyone should think that saying they don't have problems is a good response to anyone who is having problems. They shouldn't be disregarded just because disabilities of any sort aren't the norm. If you have a disability then it is not an opinion, it is a fact, and stating that the opposite is true for others doesn't stop it being a fact!

Sorry Jeh313, I'm not saying that your poor vision is a disability, I wear glasses myself and can't see without them, I don't consider it a disability, but it isn't something to disregard by others who don't wear them.
God, I'd never disregard what someone with really serious vision problems told me of their condition just because it differed to mine and assume they were overstating it! I can't imagine doing such a thing. It'd be like saying to someone in a wheelchair "well I can get up those stairs, so there is no need for a ramp and stop complaining".


...very special circumstances.

Please elaborate on that Simon, for the benefit of anyone with genuine issues who I'm sure would like to know what they would have to prove to Privateer to get some sort of leeway for a disability in an event they've paid to enter.

I was told one of the reasons for the icons in the mkii rules was to reduce the amount of text on the cards, so that it could be bigger? so I'm surprised to learn that isn't the case really.

[PPS_Simon]

Please elaborate on that Simon, for the benefit of anyone with genuine issues who I'm sure would like to know what they would have to prove to Privateer to get some sort of leeway for a disability in an event they've paid to enter.



Actually, I can't think of a single situation at an official event that we would allow someone to use home made cards without having official cards as well.

[admanb]

Actually, I can't think of a single situation at an official event that we would allow someone to use home made cards without having official cards as well.

What if they had regular cards and homemade ones, but right as they were about to start a dog ran in and ran off with the regular ones.

[Lord of Death]

Actually, I can't think of a single situation at an official event that we would allow someone to use home made cards without having official cards as well.

I actually don't understand this. If they bought the model obviously they have the cards right? I'm all for a "No Proxys" thing at offical cons/tournaments, but if they have the right model they would have to have the card somewhere yes?

Or is it because of what Snakeman said? Preventing cheating issues? I can understand that.

[viperidae99]

What if they had regular cards and homemade ones, but right as they were about to start a dog ran in and ran off with the regular ones.
:D Too damn bad, you're out of the tourney. No cards, no wrestle.

Unless of course, you chased him down, performed some quick surgery and reassembled the scraps before game time... actually yeah, what if my official cards are too sun-faded/torn/burnt to be visible? I can't provide a handy replacement for my opponent that doesn't have a cigarette burn where the DEF used to be?

:)

[megatron0]

Yeah and you could say "no Wayy that zero was always on the end of my ARM"

[PPS_Simon]

Or is it because of what Snakeman said? Preventing cheating issues? I can understand that.

Precisely!

[Ballasar]

Hah hah?

Many people have problems with their vision, many people have problems with reading altogether. It isn't funny and shouldn't be laughed at.

I'm quite shocked really, because the attitude shown by some in this thread seems that it would be enough to put off many people with genuine issues from even asking!
And I'm quite surprised that anyone should think that saying they don't have problems is a good response to anyone who is having problems. They shouldn't be disregarded just because disabilities of any sort aren't the norm. If you have a disability then it is not an opinion, it is a fact, and stating that the opposite is true for others doesn't stop it being a fact!

Sorry Jeh313, I'm not saying that your poor vision is a disability, I wear glasses myself and can't see without them, I don't consider it a disability, but it isn't something to disregard by others who don't wear them.
God, I'd never disregard what someone with really serious vision problems told me of their condition just because it differed to mine and assume they were overstating it! I can't imagine doing such a thing. It'd be like saying to someone in a wheelchair "well I can get up those stairs, so there is no need for a ramp and stop complaining".



.

The poaster you quoted, while he did make it seam like a joke, did provide a way to help the OP out. The item could easily fin in someone's game bag. I knew a fellow who had very poor vision, and he had somthing very similar.

[Avecrien]

If I show up to a tourney with official models, official cards, and homemade cards that don't hurt the eyes, and I get to play without a hassle because I have everything required-then that's great.

If I get hassled because I'm using readable cards or because I didn't warn everybody that I use readable cards when I've got the originals-that's not cool. I would protest.

If I instead showed up with only homemade cards and couldn't play-that's completely reasonable. This is along the lines of why I can't play using custom models crafted from Legos. Only that'd be cooler.

[admanb]

If I show up to a tourney with official models, official cards, and homemade cards that don't hurt the eyes, and I get to play without a hassle because I have everything required-then that's great.

If I get hassled because I'm using readable cards or because I didn't warn everybody that I use readable cards when I've got the originals-that's not cool. I would protest.

If I instead showed up with only homemade cards and couldn't play-that's completely reasonable. This is along the lines of why I can't play using custom models crafted from Legos. Only that'd be cooler.

Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. In the second situation I recommend kicking out your opponent's knees and telling them they can't have a chair*.

*I don't actually recommend this.

[Jeh313]

Thanks for the backup Ruth, and no I wasn't offended by the suggestion of using the magnifying thingy. But yeah, I am a little bummed that the common response seems to be "tough luck", actually the suggestion of using a magnifying object seems the fastest/ cheapest/ and most acceptable according to PPSSimon's response, as I'd still be using the official cards. Either way, I was just asking, Obviously I'm going to just deal with it. 6 months or a year down the line, when all the new stats and rules are burned into my head it won't matter so much. Just stinks to have to waste so much time as I re-learn the details. (which by the way, I am very pleased with on the whole).

[Erebos]

Actually, I can't think of a single situation at an official event that we would allow someone to use home made cards without having official cards as well.

is this official confirmation that we CAN use home-made cards, as long as we have the actual card to back them up? if i understand this right, thank god!

[CptCaine]

is this official confirmation that we CAN use home-made cards, as long as we have the actual card to back them up? if i understand this right, thank god!

This has always been the case. :)

Homemade cards are ok!!!

Just bring the actual cards with you.


-CC

[PPS_Mod:Garvin]

is this official confirmation that we CAN use home-made cards, as long as we have the actual card to back them up? if i understand this right, thank god!

I don't think that is specifically what Simon meant with that statement.

A Press Ganger can certainly allow home-made cards at their event as the tournament organizer, provided that the player has the originals on hand.

That does not mean that a Press Ganger is required to allow such a thing. Nor would I expect it to be allowed at any official Privateer Press run events.

[jean1951]

I don't think that is specifically what Simon meant with that statement.

A Press Ganger can certainly allow home-made cards at their event as the tournament organizer, provided that the player has the originals on hand.

That does not mean that a Press Ganger is required to allow such a thing. Nor would I expect it to be allowed at any official Privateer Press run events.

Hello,

I believe that Jeh313 (http://privateerpressforums.com/member.php?u=19809) has a point about the small print. As long as the material comes from an original PP source. I do believe it is a good idea to make any reference material. Anything that help the game flow smoothly from your end. Besided in two months he will probably know the stats on the cards by heart.
I do respect the pressganger organizing events or an official PP run event. If the rules are clearly stated beforehand their should be no problem. But should I show up to such an event and anybody in JEH313 position is refused then I will not participate in the event. Heck we are playing a game, only a game it is suppose to be fun.

Cordially yours,

Jean

[9breaker]

Or is it because of what Snakeman said? Preventing cheating issues? I can understand that.
Precisely!

Well with the release of faction books, would it be sufficient to only have the home-made cards and a faction book, but NOT the original cards? What if the original card was lost or damaged. Or perhaps I am one of those people who like to keep the card in pristine condition and would rather leave it home to avoid any chance of damage.

[PPS_Mod:Bobaferret]

The issue is distributing homemade cards; this is not permitted at all. As I've mentioned before, I have a player with poor eye sight and he did photocopy enlargements of the original cards. As a tournament organizer, I don't have any issue with this.

However, I would not allow homemade cards at events I run for the reasons mentioned above.

[PPS_Simon]

Well with the release of faction books, would it be sufficient to only have the home-made cards and a faction book, but NOT the original cards? What if the original card was lost or damaged. Or perhaps I am one of those people who like to keep the card in pristine condition and would rather leave it home to avoid any chance of damage.

Bring the card to a tournament.

[9breaker]

so is an enlarged photocopy of the original (not home-made) card alright? (provided that I am not distributing it) As long as I have a faction book to prove i'm not cheating.

With the release of Mk.II, what if a person could only afford either the faction deck or a faction book but not both? Would it be possible to just have a faction book and a sheet of paper with the damage grids drawn out for marking damage?

I'm not familiar with the tournament system, but I am curious to see how these situations would be dealt with. Is the original card 100% mandatory?

[necronomitron]

But yeah, I am a little bummed that the common response seems to be "tough luck".
Really? It seems like the common response has been "make a readable copy for yourself and bring the officials with you and you *should* be ok". A far cry from "tough luck".

[Ravnak]

Or perhaps I am one of those people who like to keep the card in pristine condition and would rather leave it home to avoid any chance of damage.

Put it in a "toploader" card sleeve if you're so worried.


I dont really understand this discussion.

If your eyesight is bad, why not make notes on your abilities and print off a single A4 Cribsheet to bring with you to games, or do some double sized photocopies to have handy for your own use.

Why would you need to replace your cards entirely? Its not like they take up a tonne of space is it?

[jean1951]

Really? It seems like the common response has been "make a readable copy for yourself and bring the officials with you and you *should* be ok". A far cry from "tough luck".

Hello,

I agree with your post. Common sense should be used. But I do believe that whoever is running the games should clearly state what will be acceptable to play. I certainly would hate to drive twenty or more hours to get to Gen Con. Spend x number of dollars and vacation time to find out I would not be able to play. On the other hand if the rules were set down and I would have a choice. But on the other hand if I went to Gen con anyway and someone changed the rule on site. I would not be a happy camper.

Cordially yours,

Jean

[CT GAMER]

I don't think that is specifically what Simon meant with that statement.

A Press Ganger can certainly allow home-made cards at their event as the tournament organizer, provided that the player has the originals on hand.

That does not mean that a Press Ganger is required to allow such a thing. Nor would I expect it to be allowed at any official Privateer Press run events.

I don't like the idea of home made cards in competative events at all.

As your opponent I'm supposed to assume everything on your cards is right or waste time checking every home made card to the original?!?

Nor do i think a PG or event organizer should be made to have to police or check such cards. What if you have an event with eight or ten players all with their own cards? IS he supposed to take three house to check them all?

I also expect that there will be a zero tolerance policy with regard to "errors" on home made cards. If a homemade card is found to have an error on it then the owner player should be disqualified and a win awarded to any player he faced imho.

Seems like a can of worms best left unopened.

[altahara]

Im kind of confused on some of this... You can download the cards themselves from the PP website.. then print them off 4 per page and they're perfect.. Are these not legal? or will the faction decks be released at the same time as the MK2 rules? If not then there is no way i can use real cards..

[paradox]

We have an older gentleman in the area who uses an item like this:
http://www.seeitbigger.com/Carson_LumiDome_Magnifier_p/cdl-ld75.htm
It's a maginifying glass shaped like a ball (a dome magnifyer I guess).
Very handy for reading small text on cards. He made extensive use of it with the last models released in MK1, due to their ever-expanding rules text and ever-shrinking font size.

This helps you avoid prining extra cards etc.

[PPS_Mod:Bobaferret]

The cards on the website are legal. Homemade cards are the ones that most tourney organizers will not allow.

The new faction decks will be available when the Mk II book comes out. :)

[Erebos]

The real issue is the TINY picture that makes it impossible to locate on the table. All I want to do it blow it up so it becomes visible and nothing more. no gold plates or spinners or anything, just a bigger picture...

In timed events being unable to locate a card becomes a huge issue. Sure, memorizing stats could solve it...but its hard to keep the info on your army and the opponents army in your head.

Maybe I'd be more warm to the idea of using the MKII cards if someone could elighten me about how timed events work and what the rulings are on stopping the clock.

like, for example,

if a card needs to be located and read, is it ok to stop the clock?

and also while im at it, if your entire army is on fire and you're resolving expiration and player-turn-damage, is it ok to stop the clock?

[Allan255]

The real issue is the TINY picture that makes it impossible to locate on the table. All I want to do it blow it up so it becomes visible and nothing more. no gold plates or spinners or anything, just a bigger picture...
I got the same problem.
Homemade cards are not a good solution for lots of reason :
- refused in tournament
- typo errors
- it's damn time consuming to make for something you already paid for

I think i'll try with two card protectors bind together, in the first i'll put the official card, in the second something like a big picture or sign or anything that will help me locate the card.

[Snakeman]

I don't like the idea of home made cards in competative events at all.

As your opponent I'm supposed to assume everything on your cards is right or waste time checking every home made card to the original?!?

Nor do i think a PG or event organizer should be made to have to police or check such cards. What if you have an event with eight or ten players all with their own cards? IS he supposed to take three house to check them all?

I also expect that there will be a zero tolerance policy with regard to "errors" on home made cards. If a homemade card is found to have an error on it then the owner player should be disqualified and a win awarded to any player he faced imho.

Seems like a can of worms best left unopened.


Im kind of confused on some of this... You can download the cards themselves from the PP website.. then print them off 4 per page and they're perfect.. Are these not legal? or will the faction decks be released at the same time as the MK2 rules? If not then there is no way i can use real cards..


Right now, the MK2 cards downloaded from the PP site are completely legal because it's all we have. The problem with them (and home-made cards) in the long run is that I'm not the world's most techo-savvy guy and it wouldn't take me more than 10 minutes to go through the entire Cygnar faction and bump the RAT and ARM of each model up by 1 point across the board before printing them out. I, and the vast majority of posters here and players I've met, would never do such a thing, but the possibility makes it problematic.

Moving forward, the way I will be handling this in my local events is: You may use photo-enlarged copies of the original cards or your own print-outs of the stats if that helps with eyesight issues. However, you must have the original stats (either book or cards, preferably cards) on hand for I or your opponent to check as needed. Any discrepancy found between the original card and your home-made reference version that could possibly be in your favor will be interpreted as de-facto evidence of intent to cheat and result in immediate expulsion from the event, so check your stuff carefully.

That said, this is only how I will do it in my own local events. As for TempleCon, the other organizers and I will be meeting this weekend so we can discuss how we will be dealing with this sort of question at TempleCon and we will post a clear answer in the TempleCon thread next week for any of those who might be concerned.



The real issue is the TINY picture that makes it impossible to locate on the table. All I want to do it blow it up so it becomes visible and nothing more. no gold plates or spinners or anything, just a bigger picture...

In timed events being unable to locate a card becomes a huge issue. Sure, memorizing stats could solve it...but its hard to keep the info on your army and the opponents army in your head.

Maybe I'd be more warm to the idea of using the MKII cards if someone could elighten me about how timed events work and what the rulings are on stopping the clock.

like, for example,

if a card needs to be located and read, is it ok to stop the clock?

and also while im at it, if your entire army is on fire and you're resolving expiration and player-turn-damage, is it ok to stop the clock?

I would suggest printing out labels with the name of the model in larger print and sticking those on the top of the plastic protective sleave so that you can find the card easier if that is a problem. Easy solution that causes no arguments.

So far as I'm aware, the current rules allow a player to stop his clock if his opponent has to do stuff during his turn, but not to stop it if he, himself, has to do stuff. Thus, I could stop the clock during my turn while you look for stuff on your cards or do a free strike or some such. However, my clock would continue to run while I resolved the effects of Feora's fire all over my Cryx army.

[Palewarrior]

So according to Whitkong, at a hardcore tournament a lot of people don't even bother looking at their cards, as they know them so well.
If they trust players to do this, why all the fuss over photocopied cards?

Privateer could have enlarged the font, as there is plenty of wasted space on the cards. These cards are supposed to be a quick reference for rules and stats, I think artwork and pointless "quotes" should have been of secondary importance.

BTW I can see the cards just fine...though my opponents face may be slightly blurry. :o

[Snakeman]

So according to Whitkong, at a hardcore tournament a lot of people don't even bother looking at their cards, as they know them so well.
If they trust players to do this, why all the fuss over photocopied cards?

Privateer could have enlarged the font, as there is plenty of wasted space on the cards. These cards are supposed to be a quick reference for rules and stats, I think artwork and pointless "quotes" should have been of secondary importance.

BTW I can see the cards just fine...though my opponents face may be slightly blurry. :o

Different situation. In Hardcore, the majority of players not only know their models well, but know their opponent's models very well. It's not so much that the trust level is higher in Hardcore, it's that the knowledge is there. In a smaller local tournament, there's a much greater mix of skill and experience levels and, let's face it, the kind of guy who's willing to cheat via altered stats on home-made cards is also the guy who's willing to tell a 14-year-old to his face that sure, Stryker has a RAT 12 if the new edition.

Again, 99.99999999% of the people I've ever met in years of playing this game and traveling to fairly large conventions have been honorable and upstanding individuals who would never do such a thing. However, policies have to be made such that all of those people can feel confident that events can't be abused by the handful of jerks in the community.


As to font size and layout on the cards, PP addressed this previously. They're that way so that all of the cards can use the same format with elements dropped in or left out but always in the same place. It keeps layout and design costs controlled and gives a uniform look. The quotes are there when another design element has been left off because it's not needed and are easier to do than re-designing the whole layout.

[Agamemnon]

I imagine that as the year goes on everyone will be memorizing stats and cards will return to being place holders and instant ref material.

[Dyoria]

So what prevents people from forging their own copies of the official PP cards? Many moons ago (back in the 90s) I used to play Magic the Gathering. People back THEN had forged cards that were very hard to distinguish from real cards (this was more to do with obtaining rare cards at next to nothing then cheating). What is stopping someone from producing their own "Official PP cards" with doctored stats and bringing them to a tournament? Are the tournament organizers going to inspect each card, remove them from protective jackets? Pass them under UV light?

No. Official cards are no more secure from cheaters then non-official cards.
If someone is going to cheat, what greater defence against an accusation of doctored cards then, "Uh, these are the official PP cards. Look at them." Anyone could make IDENTICAL cards with a good scanner, Photoshop and a quick visit to a professional printing shop that makes presentation supplies. And I guarantee that you will not be able to tell the difference between the two cards. (Other then the price tag, because this would be 10x as expensive as buying the cards from PP).

If you are going to ban people from bringing their own version of the cards, at least have the honesty to state that it is because you want to ensure that your players purchase the new decks. Hiding behind "protecting the virtue of the game" or "ensuring younger more gullible players are not taken advantage of" is insulting to our intelligence, and is quite frankly stating that you do not trust me to not cheat if the opportunity presented itself.

I find the new cards extremely difficult to read. I also really do not like the way they look. I will buy the new cards because I do not want to be accused of potentially cheating, but I resent the connotation that just because I want to make my own cards, in a hobby that promotes creativity and artistic expression, that somehow I am less worthy to play.

I wanted to make 3d cards that included gears and relief, and holes for the related models to stand in, to act as both an army movement device and cards. I have already started the design, but I doubt I will continue because I don’t want to be harassed at tournaments because my artistic views and aesthetic preferences differ from those of PP.

[skrulnik]

.....No. Official cards are no more secure from cheaters then non-official cards.
If someone is going to cheat, what greater defence against an accusation of doctored cards then, "Uh, these are the official PP cards. Look at them." Anyone could make IDENTICAL cards with a good scanner, Photoshop and a quick visit to a professional printing shop that makes presentation supplies. And I guarantee that you will not be able to tell the difference between the two cards. (Other then the price tag, because this would be 10x as expensive as buying the cards from PP).

If you are going to ban people from bringing their own version of the cards, at least have the honesty to state that it is because you want to ensure that your players purchase the new decks. Hiding behind "protecting the virtue of the game" or "ensuring younger more gullible players are not taken advantage of" is insulting to our intelligence, and is quite frankly stating that you do not trust me to not cheat if the opportunity presented itself.

I find the new cards extremely difficult to read. I also really do not like the way they look. I will buy the new cards because I do not want to be accused of potentially cheating, but I resent the connotation that just because I want to make my own cards, in a hobby that promotes creativity and artistic expression, that somehow I am less worthy to play.

......

I pretty much agree with this.

[N0rdicNinja]

So what prevents people from forging their own copies of the official PP cards? Many moons ago (back in the 90s) I used to play Magic the Gathering. People back THEN had forged cards that were very hard to distinguish from real cards (this was more to do with obtaining rare cards at next to nothing then cheating). What is stopping someone from producing their own "Official PP cards" with doctored stats and bringing them to a tournament? Are the tournament organizers going to inspect each card, remove them from protective jackets? Pass them under UV light?

No. Official cards are no more secure from cheaters then non-official cards.
If someone is going to cheat, what greater defence against an accusation of doctored cards then, "Uh, these are the official PP cards. Look at them." Anyone could make IDENTICAL cards with a good scanner, Photoshop and a quick visit to a professional printing shop that makes presentation supplies. And I guarantee that you will not be able to tell the difference between the two cards. (Other then the price tag, because this would be 10x as expensive as buying the cards from PP).

If you are going to ban people from bringing their own version of the cards, at least have the honesty to state that it is because you want to ensure that your players purchase the new decks. Hiding behind "protecting the virtue of the game" or "ensuring younger more gullible players are not taken advantage of" is insulting to our intelligence, and is quite frankly stating that you do not trust me to not cheat if the opportunity presented itself.

I find the new cards extremely difficult to read. I also really do not like the way they look. I will buy the new cards because I do not want to be accused of potentially cheating, but I resent the connotation that just because I want to make my own cards, in a hobby that promotes creativity and artistic expression, that somehow I am less worthy to play.

I wanted to make 3d cards that included gears and relief, and holes for the related models to stand in, to act as both an army movement device and cards. I have already started the design, but I doubt I will continue because I don’t want to be harassed at tournaments because my artistic views and aesthetic preferences differ from those of PP.

A LOT less people are going to be willing to go that far out of their way though. By requiring the "official" cards the number of possible cheaters will be reduced drastically then if everyone could just bring generic print outs. I'd be willing to bet <%1 of the people on this forum would actually do that, that percentage would be a lot higher though if they were allowed to just bring something of their own.

I doubt they're doing this purely for sales though, were you allowed to bring custom cards to MK.I tourneys? I've never been to a tourney before so I can't say for certain but I'm to take a stab in the dark and assume the answer is no. And since the cards came with the models themselves you can't really point fingers at PP screaming "Money Grubbers!" now can you. It's a rule that's carrying over with the new generation... not to surprising.

Also, just as note, it's also a lot easier for mistakes to crop up on custom cards. A problem that wouldn't occur with the official ones.

[blue loki]

So what prevents people from forging their own copies of the official PP cards? Many moons ago (back in the 90s) I used to play Magic the Gathering. People back THEN had forged cards that were very hard to distinguish from real cards (this was more to do with obtaining rare cards at next to nothing then cheating). What is stopping someone from producing their own "Official PP cards" with doctored stats and bringing them to a tournament? Are the tournament organizers going to inspect each card, remove them from protective jackets? Pass them under UV light?

No. Official cards are no more secure from cheaters then non-official cards.
If someone is going to cheat, what greater defence against an accusation of doctored cards then, "Uh, these are the official PP cards. Look at them." Anyone could make IDENTICAL cards with a good scanner, Photoshop and a quick visit to a professional printing shop that makes presentation supplies. And I guarantee that you will not be able to tell the difference between the two cards. (Other then the price tag, because this would be 10x as expensive as buying the cards from PP).

If you are going to ban people from bringing their own version of the cards, at least have the honesty to state that it is because you want to ensure that your players purchase the new decks. Hiding behind "protecting the virtue of the game" or "ensuring younger more gullible players are not taken advantage of" is insulting to our intelligence, and is quite frankly stating that you do not trust me to not cheat if the opportunity presented itself.

I find the new cards extremely difficult to read. I also really do not like the way they look. I will buy the new cards because I do not want to be accused of potentially cheating, but I resent the connotation that just because I want to make my own cards, in a hobby that promotes creativity and artistic expression, that somehow I am less worthy to play.

I wanted to make 3d cards that included gears and relief, and holes for the related models to stand in, to act as both an army movement device and cards. I have already started the design, but I doubt I will continue because I don’t want to be harassed at tournaments because my artistic views and aesthetic preferences differ from those of PP.

There's also no way to prevent someone from creating their own model bases that at first glance look correct but that have dimensions that will benefit the player. Nor is there any way to prevent players from attempting to use weighted dice, or dice with modified pip counts.

Does that mean Privateer shouldn't tell you specifically what the base size of a model is supposed to be? Should Privateer not bother telling us to use use standard d6 dice and to keep the game fair?

Of course not.

The dedicated cheater will cheat no matter what rules and safeguards are in place. However, if Privateer does their best to put rules and guidelines in place to cover every aspect of the game, the casual cheater will be unable to succeed or will simply be too lazy to attempt it, and the dedicated cheater will have no loophole to justify his actions when caught.

Standardization and official materials are good for the game. I have enough other things to worry about than having to determine if my opponent's homemade cards contain errors, either accidental or malicious.

And honestly, why would I trust homemade materials unless I knew the author very well. I'm expected to trust everyone simply because we play the same game? I don't think so. Trust is earned, not granted. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something.

[9breaker]

...

I pretty much agree with this.

I second this. If they have a rule book or some other reference (faction book?) with the means to prove that they are playing fairly, there should be no reason to suspect them of cheating.

[Dyoria]

I wasnt necessarily stating that they are money grubbing. Especially not when they have provided us with free rules and cards.

But stating that I cant play with my home made cards, that I wont distribute (because I agree with that) because of prevention of cheating is kind of ridiculous. Especially if I bring the original, official PP cards.

I have never been to an official PP tournament (frankly because there never has been one in Montreal). But I have been to official GW tournaments. They had no problem accepting army lists printed from Army Builder, that included all the rules on them. However, you had to bring original copies of all the rules you were using (codexes, WD articles, etc.)

I cannot see why this could not be the policy at PP.

[godchyld76]

I pretty much agree with this.


So what prevents people from forging their own copies of the official PP cards? Many moons ago (back in the 90s) I used to play Magic the Gathering. People back THEN had forged cards that were very hard to distinguish from real cards (this was more to do with obtaining rare cards at next to nothing then cheating). What is stopping someone from producing their own "Official PP cards" with doctored stats and bringing them to a tournament? Are the tournament organizers going to inspect each card, remove them from protective jackets? Pass them under UV light?

No. Official cards are no more secure from cheaters then non-official cards.
If someone is going to cheat, what greater defence against an accusation of doctored cards then, "Uh, these are the official PP cards. Look at them." Anyone could make IDENTICAL cards with a good scanner, Photoshop and a quick visit to a professional printing shop that makes presentation supplies. And I guarantee that you will not be able to tell the difference between the two cards. (Other then the price tag, because this would be 10x as expensive as buying the cards from PP).

If you are going to ban people from bringing their own version of the cards, at least have the honesty to state that it is because you want to ensure that your players purchase the new decks. Hiding behind "protecting the virtue of the game" or "ensuring younger more gullible players are not taken advantage of" is insulting to our intelligence, and is quite frankly stating that you do not trust me to not cheat if the opportunity presented itself.

I find the new cards extremely difficult to read. I also really do not like the way they look. I will buy the new cards because I do not want to be accused of potentially cheating, but I resent the connotation that just because I want to make my own cards, in a hobby that promotes creativity and artistic expression, that somehow I am less worthy to play.

I wanted to make 3d cards that included gears and relief, and holes for the related models to stand in, to act as both an army movement device and cards. I have already started the design, but I doubt I will continue because I don?t want to be harassed at tournaments because my artistic views and aesthetic preferences differ from those of PP.

I couldn't agree more. PP's defense of these cards which have a large portion of the player base up in arms due to the size of text and artwork, just baffles me. If your player base does not like something, why are you forcing it on them?

This is the continued attitude from PP since not long after the WM Fieldtest that has killed all interest in the game in my area....I don't know of any former WM/Hordes players in the lower Michigan area that are continuing to play and I have not seen any kinds of events scheduled either.

PP....listen up...you have done many good things for your fans (especially the release of the MK2 stuff) but this stubborn refusal to acknowledge a serious complaint from your customers is not wise, it is alienating more and more former players.

[Dyoria]

Standardization and official materials are good for the game. I have enough other things to worry about than having to determine if my opponent's homemade cards contain errors, either accidental or malicious.

And honestly, why would I trust homemade materials unless I knew the author very well. I'm expected to trust everyone simply because we play the same game? I don't think so. Trust is earned, not granted. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something.

I can see your point about standardized materials. Allow me to put this point forward, how often have you faced an army that full of extensive conversions? Units with lots of modeling, different posses, scratch built kits. Do you not appreciate the effort that a modeler puts into his army? Is it not better then playing against that awful pewter force that shows up all the time? Modifications are not standardized. And they sometimes provide confusion, because even if they are WYSIWYG, the model on the table doesnt jive with what you have in your mind for what the model should look like, and you have those moments where you say, "AW XXXXX I forgot that was a Stormclad".

PP doesnt prevent you from fielding an army of conversions, provided they begin with PP models and the armaments are representative of what the model actually has. This can be a source of confusion, however they are willing to accept artistic license in modeling.

I also further submit, that how does one earn your trust, if you do not provide them with the opportunities to be trusted. If you doubt everyone's integrity, then you never really trust anyone and are just waiting for them to try and pull a fast one. :)

[N0rdicNinja]

I wasnt necessarily stating that they are money grubbing. Especially not when they have provided us with free rules and cards.

But stating that I cant play with my home made cards, that I wont distribute (because I agree with that) because of prevention of cheating is kind of ridiculous. Especially if I bring the original, official PP cards.

I have never been to an official PP tournament (frankly because there never has been one in Montreal). But I have been to official GW tournaments. They had no problem accepting army lists printed from Army Builder, that included all the rules on them. However, you had to bring original copies of all the rules you were using (codexes, WD articles, etc.)

I cannot see why this could not be the policy at PP.

But when someone needs to look up a stat in a 40k or Fantasy tourney they're not going to look at your list (because it could be incorrect) they're going to look at your book. The only thing a lists matters for in a Warhammer tourney is so you can't make up unit upgrades on the fly, if you say unit A has upgrade X the other player can demand to see your list to make sure you paid for it. The stats will be fetched from official sources however, not from your printout.

But I do see your point, I could see using your own custom cards as long as you have the official version there for when your opponent wants a rules reference. The only annoying thing that could pop up with this is tracking of wounds, in a tourney situation I would ask to see all your custom cards to make sure the damage boxes %100 line up with what's on the official card. As even with the official ones around, this could easily go by unnoticed.

I still think requiring official cards in tourneys is a good idea. In a casual game however I would find it perfectly acceptable, tourney are simply required to be more structured to make sure the playing field is even for everyone.

[Dyoria]

You do make a valid point about having to verify the boxes.

Perhaps the simplest of solutions, is that tournaments have the following rule:

If you plan on using non-official materials, please present yourself, with these materials, as well as the ORIGINAL cards, to a tournament judge for inspection, prior to inscription, or the non-official materials will not be allowed.

I would have absolutely no qualms with this. I would show up an hour early to make sure I could show my stuff to a ref. Since I am complicated the game by using non-official material, I should make an effort to make sure it conforms and appeases other players. And there are no questions about wrong rules. I would even give my official cards to any player who asks for them, even once my cards were approved.

It would only be a slight addition to the work load of judges, as they have to check the validity of lists ANYWAYS. Furthermore, I cannot see that many people going through the effort of making custom cards.

I would also put certain limitations on what custom cards are:

You may have custom cards for one of two reasons.
1) you are unable to clearly read the official cards. Custom cards should be magifications of the original cards.
2) you do not like the aesthetic appearance of the official cards. Custom cards should be your interpretation of official cards, containing at least 3 colours.

But denying players flat out, when this simple solution could resolve the problem... it doesn't make sense.

[skrulnik]

I use Forward Kommander lists for my grids and boxes.

Does that mean I am cheating and no one will trust me?

[PPS_Mod:Not Dice]

if Privateer does their best to put rules and guidelines in place to cover every aspect of the game, the casual cheater will be unable to succeed or will simply be too lazy to attempt it, and the dedicated cheater will have no loophole to justify his actions when caught.

A cookie for the man in blue.

One does not forego writing rules because he knows one person in a thousand will try and break it. You write the rules because you know the other 999 people who follow the rules will appreciate it.

[PPS_Mod:Not Dice]

If you plan on using non-official materials, please present yourself, with these materials, as well as the ORIGINAL cards, to a tournament judge for inspection, prior to inscription, or the non-official materials will not be allowed.

I would have absolutely no qualms with this. I would show up an hour early to make sure I could show my stuff to a ref.

As a tournament organizer, I would not dedicate an hour to my tournament's prep time to go over your custom cards. It's my job to make sure the event goes smoothly for the other 11 or more people who showed up, not to cater to each player's variant whims. The best way to do that is to enforce the use of official materials to prevent as much confusion as possible. Remember, it's not just about you. It's about everyone else you play that day as well. Your cards might work for you but all of your opponents may not find your cards agreeable.

[N0rdicNinja]

I use Forward Kommander lists for my grids and boxes.

Does that mean I am cheating and no one will trust me?

Casual Game? As long as you're not giggling mischievously in the corner yah I would trust you. In a tourney though... no I wouldn't.

[PPS_Simon]

So what prevents people from forging their own copies of the official PP cards? Many moons ago (back in the 90s) I used to play Magic the Gathering. People back THEN had forged cards that were very hard to distinguish from real cards (this was more to do with obtaining rare cards at next to nothing then cheating). What is stopping someone from producing their own "Official PP cards" with doctored stats and bringing them to a tournament? Are the tournament organizers going to inspect each card, remove them from protective jackets? Pass them under UV light?

No. Official cards are no more secure from cheaters then non-official cards.
If someone is going to cheat, what greater defence against an accusation of doctored cards then, "Uh, these are the official PP cards. Look at them." Anyone could make IDENTICAL cards with a good scanner, Photoshop and a quick visit to a professional printing shop that makes presentation supplies. And I guarantee that you will not be able to tell the difference between the two cards. (Other then the price tag, because this would be 10x as expensive as buying the cards from PP).

If you are going to ban people from bringing their own version of the cards, at least have the honesty to state that it is because you want to ensure that your players purchase the new decks. Hiding behind "protecting the virtue of the game" or "ensuring younger more gullible players are not taken advantage of" is insulting to our intelligence, and is quite frankly stating that you do not trust me to not cheat if the opportunity presented itself.

I find the new cards extremely difficult to read. I also really do not like the way they look. I will buy the new cards because I do not want to be accused of potentially cheating, but I resent the connotation that just because I want to make my own cards, in a hobby that promotes creativity and artistic expression, that somehow I am less worthy to play.

I wanted to make 3d cards that included gears and relief, and holes for the related models to stand in, to act as both an army movement device and cards. I have already started the design, but I doubt I will continue because I don?t want to be harassed at tournaments because my artistic views and aesthetic preferences differ from those of PP.


I'm sorry you don't believe that we require official cards at official events to prevent cheating but that is the truth. As we have said numerous times, additional homemade cards are not forbidden provided you can always provide the official card as a courtesy to both your opponent and the tournament organizer.

If we were that desperate to sell the card decks we would certainly not have released hundreds of our models in a free pdf on our own website.

[N0rdicNinja]

If we were that desperate to sell the card decks we would certainly not have released hundreds of our models in a free pdf on our own website.

True that! And we love you for it! =)

[Dyoria]

Yup I loved that too. As I mentioned above. :)

Well as there are no official tournaments in my area, the point is rather moot anyways. Im going to use my homemade cards, but provide my opponent with the official ones to ease any misconceptions that I am cheating.

[Emperor's_Spork]

Do you all think enough people might purchase official cards that have larger titles and reference keywords, larger damage tracks that can be better marked, erased & marked again while monitored from across the table, plus little or no artwork?

If they were officially designed and printed by Privateer that would eliminate the risk of casual cheaters and people like myself would fund their production by happily buying them.

[DemonCalibre]

I highly doubt they are going duplicate their work on the cards to might slightly larger ones for a minority of people.

I have used the Retribution Cards extensively, they work fine, haven't had a problem yet.

[Avecrien]

Simon just said that if I've got my official cards I can keep track of my models with my homemade stuff, yes?

Official cards are for the opponent and judges. Questions and challenges are resolved through official cards and rulebooks. If you need to look at something else to readily read what's on your official cards in small print, that's for you. Just like my snacks and snack moneys is for me while my tourney fee is for the official stuff. non-official cards = doritos.

[JTY]

I've said before I don't like the new cards because I struggle to read them. Don't care two hoots about the aesthetic TBH, or the size, just the colours.
Doesn't mean I won't buy them and use them though...

However, I'd be happier knowing that the PDF will be updated and will remain avaliable, that way I can use that and simply hand a pile of official cards to my opponent before the game starts.
Surely, jobs a good un and everyone is happy; me because I can read what is put infront of me, my opponent because he has my cards to refer to during the game, meaning he doesn't have to ask to see 'em and can be sure I ain't cheating, the TO because I've provided the official cards.

If I was informed that I would have to suck it up and get over myself for having difficulty reading the new cards, it would result in a huge argument.
That is what I don't like, and that is an attitude I feel coming from a few others from time to time; "The new cards are fine for me so they must be fine for you as well, stop complaining and get on with it". Whether that is intended or not it does come across in a few posts, and it'd be better all round if it didn't.
I'm not complaining, neither is the OP. Just making a point and wishing to raise awareness that some people may indeed struggle with the cards.
The missus said it and I agree; make allowance for people who struggle, don't be elitist and expect them to struggle to suit you and please refrain from making suggestions that you think will resolve the issue because they may not and may accidentally cause further offence (I f'r instance don't need a magnifying glass as I struggle with the colours, so telling me to go buy a magnifying glass is an unhelpful suggestion and dareIsay dismissive of my situation).

This is not something that should be argued about, it is something that should be considered with a modicum of maturity and open mindedness.

[Annichka]

I allow people who can't see their cards very easily to bring larger sheets, but they must have the real cards for authentication, and to show to their opponents. That way everybody wins! yay!

[Marius]

To all the guys/ladies who struggle reading the cards - do you ever worry about an opponent who is using official cards taking advantage of your difficulty reading said cards and fluffing damage tracks or such like?

[Emperor's_Spork]

I play with several goofy players with clumsy hands and worn markers. They mess up damage tracking regularly. I'm generally convinced it's in error, but sometimes there's a hint of dismissal that makes it's seem almost intentional sloppiness. This was exacerbated by the Horde spirals.

[DemonCalibre]

The Hordes Spirals just need to be bigger, earily primal spirals are a PITA to mark properly, but later cards from later expansions aren't that bad.

I think it would be nice if they spaced them slightly farther appart, why? I always tend to over erase when I am erasing damage because the pips are so close together.

[Avecrien]

I expect one or two people to either exploit or fudge a stat/rule in a twelve man tourney. I don't want to be one of them by not having the best access to the information myself and I want to protect against it from others likewise.

As mentioned above, damage grids/spirals are one of the biggest problems but I can't force the player to use bigger cards to mark them on, and PP has no fix on hand.
At least with text, having something around that's easy to access helps a lot.

[Jeh313]

I'm not complaining, neither is the OP. Just making a point and wishing to raise awareness that some people may indeed struggle with the cards.
The missus said it and I agree; make allowance for people who struggle, don't be elitist and expect them to struggle to suit you and please refrain from making suggestions that you think will resolve the issue because they may not and may accidentally cause further offence (I f'r instance don't need a magnifying glass as I struggle with the colours, so telling me to go buy a magnifying glass is an unhelpful suggestion and dareIsay dismissive of my situation).

This is not something that should be argued about, it is something that should be considered with a modicum of maturity and open mindedness.


Well said. I really wasn't whining, I've tried to make the best of it, and will continue to do so. I don't take responses of "I don't have a problem with the cards" negatively...If they don't they don't.

Really, the cheating issue that seems to have stirred up the proverbial mushroom fertilizer seems a bit off base to me. A cheater will cheat if that's their goal. Of course I would ALWAYS have my original cards, and for that matter, probably track the damage on the originals. I think I'll be either finding a magnifier or creating a cheat sheet/booklet for my own reference. Really, I barely have time to paint my models, so though I LOVED the alternate cards by Bananachuck on the old board, that's way to much time for me.

As for "the minority" of players who aren't happy with the new cards...maybe, but there were a HUGE number of responses to the old thread about general unhappiness over the new ones. Considering how open and communal PP has been with regards to the rules, I actually was shocked a change wasn't made. But really, It doesn't matter, as long as I have an option that works for me then no biggie.

Also, along the cheating lines...tracking damage is probably the most often abused rule of the game, no one ever checks what people are doing...and unless you're rainman and can remember it all in your head, you really don't know what your opponent is doing...so if you're going to claim "cheat!" on someone, I'd check that long before I spent the time reviewing homemade cards, enlarged cards, cheat sheets, base sizes, magnifying tools with built in laser printers, sharks with frickenlas..... you get the point. The Fact that a question of how to deal with a minor problem, so that the new cards can work for everyone, has been twisted into a "who's gonna be cheating" one is just sad. Sorry I asked really...shoulda just worked it out with my local PG and then dealt with it on a bigger stage when and if the time arrives.


in the words of the immortal Stan Lee... NUFF SAID

[Avecrien]

so...Stan Lee succeeded? I knew it! Back to pouring over my collection to find any hints he's left for the rest of us.

[N0rdicNinja]

I don't think anyone is going to complain if you bring a cheat sheet for your own referencing, as long as you have the official card to hand to your opponent so they can verify any questions they have you should be good.

[Agamemnon]

We need something along the lines of Garbage Pail Kids cards.... and stats.

[thecsharian]

This is probably slightly off topic now, but the thing that annoys me about the new cards is that the special abilites are listed on the back... and not on the front (you know, how they used to be listed on the front without text details.

...so I cannot quickly scan them to check if I've forgotten anything (etc), I have to pick it up, turn it around and read it. This needlessly complicates things.

[JTY]

To all the guys/ladies who struggle reading the cards - do you ever worry about an opponent who is using official cards taking advantage of your difficulty reading said cards and fluffing damage tracks or such like?

Personally?
No, there is little point worrying about how people may cheat you until it happens, so I don't tend to give it a moments thought. I'd prefer to give others the benefit and hope they'll return the favour when I make balls-ups.


The Hordes Spirals just need to be bigger, earily primal spirals are a PITA to mark properly, but later cards from later expansions aren't that bad.

I think it would be nice if they spaced them slightly farther appart, why? I always tend to over erase when I am erasing damage because the pips are so close together.

This is true.
The Warmachine grids are generally quite chunky, whereas the Hordes spirals seem a bit small. Combine that with their shape and a small shift inside the card sleeve becomes a big issue when trying to remember where you are up to, and with toploaders, which tend to be looser than sleeves, that is moreso.
By comparison the WM grids are quite forgiving of movement so we notice less.



Incidentally, the majority of the male population of the planet have some form of word blindness or other, it really is very common.
Those with more serious instances are likely to spend less time reading and posting on internet forums than those without difficulties are.
Think about this before refering to minorities. Truth is that it is the opposite that is truer.

[Critical]

I wanted to make 3d cards that included gears and relief, and holes for the related models to stand in, to act as both an army movement device and cards. I have already started the design, but I doubt I will continue because I don?t want to be harassed at tournaments because my artistic views and aesthetic preferences differ from those of PP.

That sounds damn cool to me. I want to see these when you get done one or two. I'm in Montreal too so let me know.

Thanks to the PP Press gangers and staff for being clear: Do what you need/want to do but bring originals for verification. Rule #1, Don't make the TO's life harder.

Cheers!
Critical

[Cloud-Gatherer]

PP doesnt prevent you from fielding an army of conversions, provided they begin with PP models and the armaments are representative of what the model actually has. This can be a source of confusion, however they are willing to accept artistic license in modeling.
Just to be totally clear: that's not true at all. Officially, for a model to act as a Stormclad (e.g.) on the table, it must be based on a Stormclad. Not "any Privateer Press warjack body plus a long sword and buckler," but a Stormclad. You are more accurately describing GW's policy, with their rather generous "counts as" rule.

That said, the final call rests with the PG or TO in charge to approve "reasonable conversions," and most of us seem to be okay with conversions that could not possibly result in confusion. But if there's even a chance an opponent might reasonably say "oh balls, I forgot that was a Stormclad," the conversion would not likely be allowed on the table.

Now you guys can get back to complaining about the MkII cards, if you absolutely must. :P

[PPS_Mod:Bobaferret]

Thanks to the PP Press gangers and staff for being clear: Do what you need/want to do but bring originals for verification. Rule #1, Don't make the TO's life harder.

Cheers!
Critical
Much appreciated!

If all I have to worry about is setting up terrain, pairings and starting on time, I'm a happy PG. The moment I have to worry about who's cheating, or who might be cheating, I just got a whole lot crankier.

[JTY]

Now you guys can get back to complaining about the MkII cards, if you absolutely must. :P

Sorry, but as this whole thread suggests, some people do have genuine issues with the MKii cards and are discussing that in a reasonable and mature way.

That is not the same as complaining for complainings sake. This matters.

[Cloud-Gatherer]

Sorry, but as this whole thread suggests, some people do have genuine issues with the MKii cards and are discussing that in a reasonable and mature way.

That is not the same as complaining for complainings sake. This matters.
"I have vision-related issues" matters, yes - and every PPS and PG in this thread has said that players with such issues are welcome to use whatever aids they may require. People are not as dismissive of that as you seem to think they are, Mr. Defensive.

The people at whom I was poking fun are the people who can't seem to get over the fact that the MkII cards are a done deal and they can't use alternate ones in official events just for aesthetic reasons.

[PPS_Mod:Bobaferret]

I think this topic has run its course.