Comprehensive Troll Changes

[Sevwall]

Calandra - Feat rerolls once only
Elemental animi - last one round
Slag - MAT 6
Impaler - +1 THR
Winter - +1 THR
EDBT - +2 Damage boxes
Mulg - +1 SPD, +1 STR, AYGTET -> snacking + Overtake, +3 Damage boxes, Animi to CMD Range
Stone Scribes - No special action now
Tunneling - A pain in the butt to use now, replacing models a million times a game.
Hero - Cleave -> Thresher

[Valkine]

Awwww, I just made the same thread almost...

[CodeRed97]

Calandra - Feat rerolls once only
Elemental animi - last one round
Slag - MAT 6
Impaler - +1 THR
Winter - +1 THR
EDBT - +2 Damage boxes
Mulg - +1 SPD, +1 STR, AYGTET -> snacking + Overtake, +3 Damage boxes, Animi to CMD Range
Stone Scribes - No special action now
Tunneling - A pain in the butt to use now, replacing models a million times a game.
Hero - Cleave -> Thresher

They just went from being silly awesome to nigh useless. They only get to be tunneled every other turn and like you said, the replacement every turn takes way too much time and is just stupid annoying.

[ozmo]

Look at the last sentence of tunneling order
"This unit
cannot receive the Tunneling order if it received it during its last activation",
that doesn't make any sense, so they have to alternate turns tunneling.

Unit lost 3" threat as they can't move and then pop and must stay above ground.

So it will move one round above ground followed by a round below ground. That seems pretty silly.
I guess any back stock of burrowers have been cleared and they can now be made useless again.

[Writer@Large]

... aaannnddd Burrowers became useless again. Seriously. Sigh ... :(

--W@L

[ozmo]

On the bright side changes to
KSB, Hero and Mulg seen quite sensible.

Cmon useful animus on Mulg and he'll be cool!

[Tweak]

Did i miss it, or did they not fix the goad doesn't work with snacking problem?

[sepher32]

At any time!!!!

[Valkine]

I'm surprised at the burrowers change, I would have thought they'd have just reduced their move instead of giving them a really awkward order. I assume that now what they expect you to do is advance them a bit above ground and then burrow them at an ideal opportunity to move in for a kill, but I can't see why I'd bother or how I'd stop them just getting killed by chain lightning or something similar.

[sepher32]

And unless there was a stealth rules update Goad is still broken (with all the dires now), and shelving the burrowers again.

Also snacking prevents Overtake just like it prevents Goad.

[gliep]

Damn. I like the changes a lot.
They take the Trolls where they should be.

The only thing i don't like is the burrowers. I think Sevall's right. It will be annoying putting the models on the table and take them off again every two turns :(

[Sevwall]

Mulg is frikkin awesome now.

SPD 5, overtake, a melee punch to go nuts over, and life boxes rivalling Megalith.

I'm cool with it.

Even if his animus is still cornercase. At least its, like, a 3% animus now instead of a 0% animus.

[artificer]

I don't mean to whine, I think Trolls got some good changes here. Mulg, KSB, and Hero all good.

My beef is Calandra. Was she THAT broken? They nerfed into oblivion the problem unit (burrowers... glad I didn't start painting mine). Her feat eats it. There. I said it. Just give me a feat that DOES something.

All models in her control area get +2 to A/D rolls, eKreoss'?, All hits count as criticals this turn... SOMETHING. She was shaping up to be our only 'A Game' warlock, and got her feat nerfed.

...and somewhere on the other side of the table Legion's fury 10 warlock with a crap ton of self healing and beast boosting is sharpening her life eating claws and laughing.

[Sevwall]

Her feat is bad now, but she synergizes well with it.

Burrowers still rock with her, because they can move when they pop up. Oh, I'm sorry, you are within 15" of the burrow token.

KD and dead.

[Redphantasm]

You do have a feat that does something. It gives you a free reroll of all attack roll 1 and 2s that happen within 14 inches of her. It's not nearly as back breaking as her original feat, but it's still powerful.

Comparing Calandra to eKreoss? Well, I know who's spell list I'd rather have...

[CerberusPuppy]

My initial reactions:

Calandra: needed at least a small nerf. This might be just the thing.

Elemental animi: this is just cleaning up a typo basically.

Slag MAT 6: Nice. He needed a little edge over the Pyre.

Impaler and Winter +1 THR: I'll take it.

Earthborn: +2 damage is a nice little boost.

Mulg: I just don't care about Mulg's crappy animus anymore. The rest of his stats and abilities more than make up for it now. I'm not surprised to see him lose AYGTET, but I am surprised to see him become even more awesome.

KSB: another nice bonus. Run and aura? Awesome. I'm going to crack up the first time I charge with my scribes and can still pop the aura. :D

Dygmies: Okay, something had to be done, but they are basically unplayable now. Wasn't there any less awkward and more effective solution?

Hero: Thresher is better than Cleave, but he's still not quite worth it. Needs more ARM and/or boxes. I want to see him get the +2 ARM for being B2B with Champs. That would be just the right touch to bring him up to 3 points.

[Redphantasm]

General thoughts on changes:

Calandra: Needed to come down a bit. I am fine with the new feat

Earthborn: Extra boxes, why not?

Impaler/Winter/Pyre: Extra THR always good

Slag: Extra MAT, he's a good all around beast now. Got your damage buff animus, got good skill at melee and range, with special
abilities that are specific, but can see play often. Got to get me one.

Mulg: Gravey The animus has it's uses. I don't really mind it being specific, because who needs Fury for an animus? That fury is for murderin.

Hero: Cleave --> Thresher. I'd still like him to have a bit more armor now. But I can see him in lists. Thresher gives him a definite purpose (anti infantry/heavy infantry), and the tactic lets him charge through walls of champs (who would be screening him). I like.

Krielstone: My jaw hit the floor when I saw this. Mint. That is all.

Burrowers: Not nearly as strong or easy to use as before. Full units are hard to use propperly (placement). On the other hand they could work well as flankers, running up the side, tunneling, moveing to possition, popping up and attacking the rear. Glad to see they kept the aiming, and they work well with feats. Newer tunneling is decidedly weak, but the unit is 4/6

Overall, we keep on winning!

[Invader Larb]

Plus if you reroll another 1 under her feat you may still spend a fury to reroll the whole thing. Her feat does not look that strong, but we need to play with it. she has plenty of ability to have a crazy feat turn with this extra surge in her ability to manipulate the odds.

Mulg sounds great now, we need to test it to make sure it is not too good. The animus is now reasonable, especially with high CMD warlocks.

The Hero is great. It appears he still needs the conditional ARM buff when in base to base with a champion. We'll have to see.

The KSB is now terrific! It can do the aura and run. It can do the aura and move after beiong KD (which would have made a big difference in a game I played last week). This is a solid positive change that will not make this core support unit a chain around our ankle.

The Slag is a solid choice instead of the Pyre now. It has an animus with similar role, but has +1 MAT, +1 to melee damage, and a ROF 2 direct shot in lieue of the AOE. They are now different enough to make a choice. The 1 point cost difference will be a huge help in army building.

+1 to Threshold is greatly appreciated on the lights.

We seem to be in great shape except for the Burrowers. The prospect of placing and removing 10 models and a marker every other turn for burrowing is very time consuming. We need to playtest it and see.

[Saerko]

My initial reactions:
KSB: another nice bonus. Run and aura? Awesome. I'm going to crack up the first time I charge with my scribes and can still pop the aura. :D


I'll be honest, my normall shriveled and cold heart warmed with life when I saw that change. I'm still trying to digest the implications...and the true extent of awesome which they portend.

I bring you, dear comrades, the Lightning Brick.

[sepher32]

Lightning Brick I like it.

And do we know yet mathematically how much worse Calandra's feat is? Obviously it lost a lot of umph but how much umph are we talking?

[Tweak]

Am I wrong but is overtake unusable with snacking, since like goad it requires models to make it to the destroyed status? Snacking removes before it makes it that far.

[artificer]

I bring you, dear comrades, the Lightning Brick.

11Dec09 Saerko coins the newest troll term.

[Redphantasm]

I'll be honest, my normall shriveled and cold heart warmed with life when I saw that change. I'm still trying to digest the implications...and the true extent of awesome which they portend.

I bring you, dear comrades, the Lightning Brick.

And Saerko's heart grew THREE sizes that day....

[admanb]

Lightning Brick I like it.

And do we know yet mathematically how much worse Calandra's feat is? Obviously it lost a lot of umph but how much umph are we talking?

It's haaaaaaard.

I'm working on it now. I'll get back to you.

[Saerko]

Lightning Brick I like it.

And do we know yet mathematically how much worse Calandra's feat is? Obviously it lost a lot of umph but how much umph are we talking?

The answers you seek:


I come bearing maths.

I was going to put this in the original Calandra thread, but it got locked. This seemed like a reasonable place to follow-up. Someone mentioned changing her feat to re-roll 1's and 2's once for both attack and damage rolls.

I have stats for doing this with two dice. I'll get back to you with three, as that's a bit more work. People are free to check my work, since I think I may have missed a digit somewhere.

2d6: Re-roll 1's and 2's once

Average: 8.333

Chance of Rolling X or Higher:
3 - 99.7%
4 - 99.1%
5 - 96.3%
6 - 91.4%
7 - 81.5%
8 - 66.6%
9 - 49.4%
10 - 29.6%
11 - 14.8%
12 - 4.9%

As you can see, it makes hitting a 6 or 7 on the dice a pretty sure bet, and you'll roll 9 or higher half the time. Not too different from her current feat, except that it still has the chance of failing on the lower end rolls.

I don't see anything as being too over-the-top at first glance. It would have to be tested to really say more though.



Since there's some odds confusion here:

Calandra's feat makes every die basically into a d4+2 so the odds are actually simpler than normal mainly because it comes out cleaner in decimals.

For 2D6 your chance of rolling(RR= with a re-roll possible):
6= 1/16 (6.25%) 6+= 100% RR = 100%
7= 2/16 (12.5%) 7+= 93.75% RR = 99.609375%
8= 3/16 (18.75%) 8+= 81.25% RR = 96.484375%
9= 4/16 (25%) 9+= 62.5% RR = 85.9375%
10= 3/16(18.75%) 10+= 37.5% RR = 60.9375%
11= 2/16(12.5%) 11+= 18.75% RR = 33.984375%
12= 1/16(6.25%) RR = 12.109375%

For 3D6:
9= 1/64 (1.5625%) 9+= 100% RR = 100%
10= 3/64 (4.6875%) 10+= 98.4375% RR = 99.9755859375%
11= 6/64 (9.375%) 11+= 93.75% RR = 99.609375%
12= 10/64 (15.625%) 12+= 84.375% RR = 97.55859375%
13= 12/64 (18.75%) 13+= 68.75% RR = 90.234375%
14= 12/64 (18.75%) 14+= 50% RR = 75%
15= 10/64 (15.625%) 15+= 31.25% RR = 52.734375%
16= 6/64 (9.375%) 16+= 15.625% RR = 28.80859375%
17= 3/64 (4.6875%) 17+= 6.25% RR = 12.109375%
18= 1/64 (1.5625%) RR= 3.1005859375%

[Redphantasm]

Am I wrong but is overtake unusable with snacking, since like goad it requires models to make it to the destroyed status? Snacking removes before it makes it that far.

Well hell. To the feedback forms!

[sepher32]

Pyg's are only hitting 12 average after moving, basically forces the Calandra Assassination to use KD, which is fine.

[Turtle]

Um, doesn't snacking interfere with Overtake? There's no way to not use snacking either.

Whoops, others got to it while I was reading.

[CodeRed97]

Um, doesn't snacking interfere with Overtake? There's no way to not use snacking either.

Whoops, others got to it while I was reading.

TO THE FEEDBACK FORMS!!! *Batman music*

[Turtle]

Heheh, I know, I know.

Anothing thing though, I don't see what's so bad about burrowers now. Sure it's definitely not as useful as before, but now your opponent will have some ability to affect them. And the burrowers still get a turn of complete invulnerability, while still having plenty of threat value. They can move after popping up and aim.

The real change was, they basically have an invulnerable leap over the course of one round. They still do what they did previously, which is provide an invulnerable threat to your enemies that must be avoided. Except now, if your opponent chooses to withdraw and give ground, he is rewarded as the burrowers pop up to be attacked, however he's just given ground to you and you can sweep forward to take those positions.

Admittedly, there's still room for fine tuning, but the changes seem fair to me.

I will definitely be fielding them this weekend.

Hero with thresher is awesome now. Basically helps with the Champions and Hero leap frogging each other to hit more targets than what would normally be available in a turn.

[Writer@Large]

PPS_Soles says to play Snacking as though it were an option, not a requirement, thus making the whole Mulg/Overtake/Goad/Snakcing problem into a tactical choice:

http://privateerpressforums.com/showpost.php?p=46870&postcount=81

--W@L

[ozmo]

Since they know will almost certainly need to move after popping up a +1MAT change would definitely not be out of line.

Or, we can completely change them and give them a ferox like leap, (very much in digger flavor) and be done with it.

[Redphantasm]

PPS_Soles says to play Snacking as though it were an option, not a requirement, thus making the whole Mulg/Overtake/Goad/Snakcing problem into a tactical choice:

http://privateerpressforums.com/showpost.php?p=46870&postcount=81

--W@L

Smexy. I do like me some tactical choices. Charge one, goad/overtake into more, then snack away. Tasty.

[admanb]

IGNORE ME. Here is how it's possible to write something that seems to make perfect sense, but is actually completely off. Take that as a lesson.

The probability space is big -- 256. That's 16 rolls with no re-roll, four with re-rolling both dice (each 36 spaces) and 16 with re-rolling one die (each 6 spaces. So 16 + 4*36 + 6*16 = 256.

These numbers are slightly inaccurate for cases where you roll one or more twos, but your initial roll is enough for a hit. So the odds of 3-8+ should all be veeeeery slightly higher.

2 - 4/256 (one each from double re-rolls)
3 - 8/256 (two each from ditto)
4 - 16/256 (three each from ditto, plus four from rerolling one when you roll a 3)
5 - 24/256 (four each from ditto, plus eight from rerolling one when you roll a 3 or 4)
6 - 33/256 (one from no re-rolls, five from each double re-roll, plus 12 from single re-rolls)
at this point the pattern forms
7 - 42/256
8 - 39/256
9 - 36/256
10 - 27/256
11 - 18/256
12 - 9/256 (one from no rerolls, four from one re-roll where the other die is a 6, four from double re-rolls)

Total is 256, so the chart is probably right.

Now the percentages:

3+ = 252/256 - 98.5%
4+ = 244/256 - 95.3%
5+ = 228/256 - 89.1%
6+ = 204/256 - 79.7%
7+ = 171/256 - 66.8%
8+ = 129/256 - 50.4%
9+ = 90/256 - 35.2%
10+ = 54/256 - 21%
11+ = 27/256 - 10.5%
12+ = 9/256 - 3.5%

[Cannibalbob]

Now the percentages:

3+ = 252/256 - 98.5%
4+ = 244/256 - 95.3%
5+ = 228/256 - 89.1%
6+ = 204/256 - 79.7%
7+ = 171/256 - 66.8%
8+ = 129/256 - 50.4%
9+ = 90/256 - 35.2%
10+ = 54/256 - 21%
11+ = 27/256 - 10.5%
12+ = 9/256 - 3.5%

The percentages for a standard 2d6 spread are:

3+ = 252/256 - 97.17%
4+ = 244/256 - 91.62%
5+ = 228/256 - 83.29%
6+ = 204/256 - 72.18%
7+ = 171/256 - 58.3%
8+ = 129/256 - 41.64%
9+ = 90/256 - 27.76%
10+ = 54/256 - 16.65%
11+ = 27/256 - 8.32%
12+ = 9/256 - 2.77%


Hmmm. I am not sure that a net gain of roughly +8% in the average case is really feat-worthy.

All this change did was make it so that her feat only works 2/3 of the time. Essentially you will see no benefit 1/3 of the time.

I did not really think the previous version of her feat was that powerful as the math showed it was not effectively that much better than other feats. To be quite honest, if her feat was causing problems then why not just revert it to her mkI feat or change it altogether?


However, the value of the feat should get better when you have access to boosts. But that means that only Calandra herself and beasts get improved benefit from the feat.

[artificer]

{lots of math}
Hmmm. I am not sure that a net gain of roughly +8% in the average case is really feat-worthy.

All this change did was make it so that her feat only works 2/3 of the time. Essentially you will see no benefit 1/3 of the time.

I did not really think the previous version of her feat was that powerful as the math showed it was not effectively that much better than other feats. To be quite honest, if her feat was causing problems then why not just revert it to her mkI feat or change it altogether?

However, the value of the feat should get better when you have access to boosts. But that means that only Calandra herself and beasts get improved benefit from the feat.

+1. Thank you. It's what I said earlier (only without the maths). An 8% increase on the To HIT, to be frank and vulgar, stinks.

Give me her feat which can re-roll 1 and 2 on attack AND damage rolls, and then it would at least be FEAT WORTHY. When I look at other faction feats (Skorne and Circle generally excluded) my blue skin goes green with envy.

[admanb]

My math is wrong. I understand the problem, but the fix eludes me. My guess is that MindwormJim's numbers are correct, and I'd like to see his worth.

[Cannibalbob]

+1. Thank you. It's what I said earlier (only without the maths). An 8% increase on the To HIT, to be frank and vulgar, stinks.

Give me her feat which can re-roll 1 and 2 on attack AND damage rolls, and then it would at least be FEAT WORTHY. When I look at other faction feats (Skorne and Circle generally excluded) my blue skin goes green with envy.


Note, that it is only a +8% increase on the midpoint (ie: 7,8) values. The increase begins to lessen in value as you move to the high end.

If it was changed to be attack and damage then essentially it would be a slightly better Signs & Portents. It would essentially do the same thing, but would stack up a bit better on average in the cases where multiple 1,2s are rolled.

I still don't think the original feat was really anything of a problem. If there is any problem with Calandra it is really with Befuddle - and that was not touched. But I guess leaving Befuddle alone and making her feat a bit less is not really much of a nerf at all.

[Kaptain Von]

Calandra - Feat rerolls once only
Stone Scribes - No special action now


So the Krielstone is not a millstone to warlocks who aren't Grissel? And I won't feel like a divvock for wanting at least some not-Impaler ranged options in my army (to give me something to do until the melee beatings start, if nothing else)?

Man, Trollbloods are starting to look tempting again.

[artificer]

If it was changed to be attack and damage then essentially it would be a slightly better Signs & Portents. It would essentially do the same thing, but would stack up a bit better on average in the cases where multiple 1,2s are rolled.

I still don't think the original feat was really anything of a problem. If there is any problem with Calandra it is really with Befuddle - and that was not touched. But I guess leaving Befuddle alone and making her feat a bit less is not really much of a nerf at all.

So what you're saying is that, currently, her feat is, on average, worse than a Warmachine spell?

Excellent.

I wish they'd reduce Befuddle to 8". Then give her a real feat.

[Killionaire]

Befuddle needs to be really model only.

The feat is still capable, given that it's more accurate than S&P, and greatly enhances crit chances more than S&P.

[Saerko]

So the Krielstone is not a millstone to warlocks who aren't Grissel? And I won't feel like a divvock for wanting at least some not-Impaler ranged options in my army (to give me something to do until the melee beatings start, if nothing else)?

Man, Trollbloods are starting to look tempting again.

You could always convert your Bloodgorgers into Champions...:D

[Cannibalbob]

My math is wrong. I understand the problem, but the fix eludes me. My guess is that MindwormJim's numbers are correct, and I'd like to see his worth.


His math appears to be incorrect as well. I guess I will go ahead and run the numbers when I have some time.

But for instance, the odds of rolling a 2 while her feat is up is (1/36)*(1/36) - which is very tiny (about 0.00077).

This means that the odds of rolling a 3+ are about 0.999228 - which is larger than what MindwormJim has listed by a fair amount. I am not sure how accurate the rest of the data is.

[Amarel]

Calandra: New Feat is fine - she's still great and re-affect with Fate Blessed if its vital.

Hero: Nice change, synergises well with Tactician.

Krielstone: Lovely, can be run with any Warlock now.

Burrowers: Can't see more than 6 being taken too often (just for the faff factor), but after letting it settle I don't mind this so much. Burrow -> Pop and run to safety -> Burrow ->Pop and aim. Makes them less about assassination only and more about threatening an area.

[Cannibalbob]

So what you're saying is that, currently, her feat is, on average, worse than a Warmachine spell?

Excellent.

I wish they'd reduce Befuddle to 8". Then give her a real feat.


No, my assessment was based on the as.sumption that the previous poster's math was correct, which we have discovered is not the case. I will go ahead and do the correct math for this feat when I have a bit of time.

Ignore my post above as the comparison is not valid without correct values to compare.

[artificer]

No, my assessment was based on the as.sumption that the previous poster's math was correct, which we have discovered is not the case. I will go ahead and do the correct math for this feat when I have a bit of time.

Ignore my post above as the comparison is not valid without correct values to compare.

so what you're saying is that her FEAT is slightly Better than a WM spell... Still not impressed

[Cannibalbob]

so what you're saying is that her FEAT is slightly Better than a WM spell... Still not impressed


To be quite frank, the original reroll all 1,2s for attack rolls is still not as powerful as Signs & Portents overall.

[Killionaire]

The main point of changing her feat was to reduce the number of rolls. IE, speed things up. Because every game I've seen the feat used, there's at least 10-20 rerolls going on due to the sheer number of attacks, plus multiple occurances of 1s and 2s.

[Cannibalbob]

The main point of changing her feat was to reduce the number of rolls. IE, speed things up. Because every game I've seen the feat used, there's at least 10-20 rerolls going on due to the sheer number of attacks, plus multiple occurances of 1s and 2s.


If thats the case, which it probably is, then I am still curious why they did not just change the feat entirely instead of making it 33% worse. Her mkI feat was fine, and I am still curious why they changed the feat in the first place.

[Sevwall]

To be quite frank, the original reroll all 1,2s for attack rolls is still not as powerful as Signs & Portents overall.

Thats not correct. It was better at hitting things.

Right now its about the same as S&P at hitting things. It needs to affect damage rolls now too.

[frazerpenman]

Might it not be an idea to just change Calandera's feat to count all 1 and 2 rolled as 3 instead, as it would save everyone time and effort.

[CerberusPuppy]

Might it not be an idea to just change Calandera's feat to count all 1 and 2 rolled as 3 instead, as it would save everyone time and effort.

Nice. That would speed it up and keep it strong.

[Cannibalbob]

Thats not correct. It was better at hitting things.

Right now its about the same as S&P at hitting things. It needs to affect damage rolls now too.


No, it was better at giving you average rolls. Signs & Portents is better at rolling high numbers. When you are rolling 2d6, Signs & Portents is better as it lets you hit higher defense values much more reliably. In addition, it effects damage in a huge way. Calandra's feat does nothing for damage.


Effecting both accuracy and damage makes Signs & Portents much better than an ability that only effects accuracy.

[joedj]

They didn't change the THUMPER?!!!?
Nor pDoomie :(

Hooray for the Hero change, needs +2 ARM in B2B with Champs.
Mulg seems good, playtesting tomorrow!!

Calandra's Feat change was ok. Befuddle was on Calandra during MK I. I play 'tested' the heck out of her in MK I, she/it was not broken. Glad they didn't change Befuddle/nor Fate Blessed. I still think her Feat would be better for pDoomie, and his for her. Her army's already re-rolling the important ones with Fate Blessed.

I only played Burrowers a few times in MK I as they were generally ineffective, even with Calandra. The current change to roller-coastering Burrowers will slow game play significantly. They are overly fragile during the turn they cannot burrow. They should be changed to Helldiver-like status. Or give them Prowl. Then they can sometimes stay alive to burrow/advance again.

No RAT change on the Winter Troll, means he's still a Fury battery, occasional animi use.

Like the THR changes, seem appropriate.

KSB? Cheaper too, right? I think I want two of 'em now...

[petegrrrr]

Befuddle needs to be really model only.

The feat is still capable, given that it's more accurate than S&P, and greatly enhances crit chances more than S&P.

Her new feat does not give more crit chances than signs and portents.

Since you only re-roll once, you are not gauranteed to get a number between 3-6 anymore.

It was the shrinking of the number range that made it a crit machine, it no longer does that nearly as reliably. It is now almost identical to S and P.

So her feat is about as good as vlads spell. Which still isn't that bad mind you.

[Cannibalbob]

It was the shrinking of the number range that made it a crit machine, it no longer does that nearly as reliably.


This is completely correct.

[Saerko]

They didn't change the THUMPER?!!!?
Nor pDoomie :(


Wait wait...let me get this straight. You think the Thumper needs a buff? Reread those rules, sir!

[petegrrrr]

Also,in the back of Sev's mind, he must be calculating the odds of getting pelted with unwanted burrowers at the next big PP event :)

EDIT* But please don't throw stuff at people.

[Cannibalbob]

Also,in the back of Sev's mind, he must be calculating the odds of getting pelted with unwanted burrowers at the next big PP event :)


I was looking forward to using Dygmies regularly in my Grim Angus lists. Not this version of the Burrowers though. Now the unit is annoying to play with in addition to play against.

[Killionaire]

They didn't change the THUMPER?!!!?

Calandra's Feat change was ok. Befuddle was on Calandra during MK I. I play 'tested' the heck out of her in MK I, she/it was not broken. Glad they didn't change Befuddle/nor Fate Blessed. I still think her Feat would be better for pDoomie, and his for her. Her army's already re-rolling the important ones with Fate Blessed.


If I recall correctly, Befuddle in MK1 required you to fail a CMD test to move a unit. Now it just moves that unit period. That was the nasty part about her, not the feat.

[Cannibalbob]

If I recall correctly, Befuddle in MK1 required you to fail a CMD test to move a unit. Now it just moves that unit period. That was the nasty part about her, not the feat.


No it didn't. It only required a command check in mkI in subsequent turns if it was upkept.

On the turn it was cast it did the exact same thing it does now.

[Warsmith]

They didn't change the THUMPER?!!!?


This is sarcasm right? Cause the Thumper has become a main stay in most of my armies since it is so good...and that is not sarcasm!

[petegrrrr]

No it didn't. It only required a command check in mkI in subsequent turns if it was upkept.

On the turn it was cast it did the exact same thing it does now.

Yup, in mark 1 you could do it OVER, and OVER and OVER if they kept failing checks...especially against those low cmd cryx.

You could also potentially move their model then cast it AGAIN on another model/unit after the first moved...oh...such shennanigins...

For losing the upkeep annoyance, it gained 2 inches of range. That seems about right.

[artificer]

Give me her feat which can re-roll 1 and 2 on attack AND damage rolls, and then it would at least be FEAT WORTHY. When I look at other faction feats (Skorne and Circle generally excluded) my blue skin goes green with envy.


Thats not correct. It was better at hitting things.

Right now its about the same as S&P at hitting things. It needs to affect damage rolls now too.

That's what I said right above. Come On PP, give us a feat that's BETTER than a Prime caster's spell. We're Trolls, we've earned it by now.

[Sevwall]

Well test it and feedback it. Both Mulg and all of the elemental beasts have changed twice already ;).

[joedj]

They didn't change the THUMPER?!!!?



Wait wait...let me get this straight. You think the Thumper needs a buff? Reread those rules, sir!

Of course the Thumper needs a Buff, it's called Farstrike.

My original comment should have had the tone of incredulousness. 6 points for 2 auto-slams at 18" when we have medium-based Steady KWs, Tough at 4,5,6 for a round, who love to go bowling through most troopers, is pretty freakin' awesome.

To me at least 1 Thumper is an auto-include. I'm amazed it wasn't feedback-ed as OP enough to hit PP's radar.

[Sevwall]

I've stopped taking it. Its wicked expensive for 1 or two shots a game, even assuming that it always hit.

Its not bad, its just really not an auto-include.

[theummhmmguy]

ooo me likes.

Mulg = good, the offense increase is gravy and the animus will be used from time to time now.

Hero = Fantastic, I like the Champs tactics and think we would have to lose it to get the b2b ARM bonus. Personally I'd prefer the tactics.

Dygmies... Can you see the look on your opponent face during a tourney as you replace the figs every other turn? Were they that good before or was it just the Calandra thing? I'll have to playtest them to see.

Overall am pretty happy with the Slag, keep him at 6 points and make him a little better rather than reduce to 5 points and make a little worse.

Winter is fine at RAT4... boostable spray attacks, yes please. Also, with Calandra or Grim that Spray gets wicked good. Worth bringing against some Khador and Legion stuff just for the animus.

I'll have to update my thread now.

[sepher32]

I'm just having nightmares about chess clocks ticking down all too quickly with these new burrower rules.

[Sevwall]

Also,in the back of Sev's mind, he must be calculating the odds of getting pelted with unwanted burrowers at the next big PP event :)

EDIT* But please don't throw stuff at people.

Oh, by all means do, but anything you throw I keep.

[Ravir]

Yes, the dygmies aren't as immensely dreaded as they once were, but they're not useless. First thing I did when I read the rules was get my models out and playtest the worst-case scenario on the floor to test spacing. It takes 2 max units to reasonably engage a full 11" circle, or 1 max unit with reach and a couple of beasts, so it's not likely to happen unless you burrow directly at the center of the enemy. That said, I still wish we had the option of even forfeiting their activation to keep them burrowed. It'd still be a great denial tool, but wouldn't be "omg we can't stop the pygs!"

[The Happy Anarchist]

So her feat is about as good as vlads spell. Which still isn't that bad mind you.

I'm surprised Pete. Her feat is about as good as half of Signs & Portents. Which is terrible. Particularly considering that the math says her feat was about equivalent with -3 defense type feats.

They didn't fix Befuddle, which was the real gamebreaker, and gave her a very underpowered feat instead.

I know you don't seem to realize just how potent befuddle is, or maybe you do and just don't want it changed but it is a game winning spell. More so than Crippling Grasp, or Breathstealer or even Temporal Barrier or Signs and Portents. Being able to move an entire unit 3" is amazing, particularly because you can now make a big hole with the mkII formation rules.

[Bearded Dragon]

If it was changed to be attack and damage then essentially it would be a slightly better Signs & Portents.

Then it would be quite similar to Mortenebra's feat. Hers lets you reroll any attack or damage roll, Caladra's just lets you reroll the 2 and 3's for attack rolls.

[Gorbad]

Looks good, although I'm not sure about the Elemental Troll changes. More Threshold is nice sure, but I'm probably not going to risk frenzies on them anyway, and IMO the Slags problem had nothing to do with it's MAT. But an improvement is an improvement even if I still don't like it.

[Sevwall]

Oh, I think the MAT is a huge deal. It is now a true all arounder. You could make light beast lists with him and an axer (in pairs maybe) to perform heavy-killing duty, especially vs jacks.

[theummhmmguy]

Looks good, although I'm not sure about the Elemental Troll changes. More Threshold is nice sure, but I'm probably not going to risk frenzies on them anyway, and IMO the Slags problem had nothing to do with it's MAT. But an improvement is an improvement even if I still don't like it.


I just don't see the same problems with the Slag that many people do. And they keep making him better. He is quite obviously a specialist beast at killing/maiming jacks and the like. When he is attacking them he is very fury efficient.

When you are attacking the right models think of him as a Rhulic Gun-Bunny that has ROF2. For every one fury you spend you get boosted attack and damage rolls.

[azaminkor]

Calandra: I think her feat should just effect all rolls having a marginal effect on attack, damage, and tough (also snacking, regeneration, slams). Or it could also do the reverse to enemy models, make them reroll 5 or 6 on attacks while in her ctrl range. I am not impressed, but I will play with her this week.

KSB: This is just too awesome.

Hero: I would like him to have Unyielding (and as a special Christmas wish Steady). I am not concerned about the advance with tactician as he should behind a wall of Champs.

Slag: Very nice model now.

Burrowers: they seem worse than mki now, I will do some extensive testing with them to see how the have changed.

Mulg: I like all the changes. I still think that Runebreaker should be a passive ability and he needs a new animus, perhaps one that gives overtake.

EBDT: I cannot argue with extra HP, but I think that the animus (or EC) should grant pathfinder.

I suggest this change to snaking:


Snacking- When this model boxes a living model with a melee attack, this model heals d3 damage points and the boxed model
is destroyed and removed from play

[StarmanTTLB]

Mulg is great, going to play the heck out of him now.

KSB, Hero: Both were changed in a great way, very happy.

Calandra:

Might it not be an idea to just change Calandera's feat to count all 1 and 2 rolled as 3 instead, as it would save everyone time and effort.Thirded. And it would still be a crit-making machine!

Also, nerf Befuddle. Make it a hit AND a CMD check, or make it cost more FUR, or anything. I like using it, but having had it used against me plenty too, I've seen how devastating it can be!

[artificer]

Also, nerf Befuddle. Make it a hit AND a CMD check, or make it cost more FUR, or anything. I like using it, but having had it used against me plenty too, I've seen how devastating it can be!

Or just take it back down to 8". Honestly, Calandra's squishy enough that if she's that close to the front line, she's risking a serious splat.

CMD check spells are worthless. She's just throwing her 3-4 (if boosting) fury away.

[ork56]

Damn. I like the changes a lot.
They take the Trolls where they should be.

The only thing i don't like is the burrowers. I think Sevall's right. It will be annoying putting the models on the table and take them off again every two turns :(

He shouldnt be moaning, as I see it it was his Chicken Little routine that got them nerfed.

[Redphantasm]

I just don't see the same problems with the Slag that many people do. And they keep making him better. He is quite obviously a specialist beast at killing/maiming jacks and the like. When he is attacking them he is very fury efficient.

When you are attacking the right models think of him as a Rhulic Gun-Bunny that has ROF2. For every one fury you spend you get boosted attack and damage rolls.

Agreed. The Slag is a true all rounder beast now. It's got your damage buff animus, your high armor, your high damage boxes. It's got the range, and the melee, two shots a pieces, and the MAT and RAT to back them up. Top it all off with buffs against certain model types (that are added to a good beast so they don't limit his use). Overall, great beast.

[AluminumFalcon]

So, are people really digging the KSB now? Before I say anything here, I have to openly admit that I have had absolutely no time to playtest, so this is just what I've managed to read. It still seems like the KSB is going to be too big of a burden on most troll armies though. While the loss of the *action is awesome, I still think it is just going to drain too much fury. Most troll warlocks just can't afford to dump fury into it each turn. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it should be able to drain directly from a beast. That would be ridiculous now that the *action is gone, and I'd much rather have that. I'm just curious if is still too resource intensive in your playtest games.

[hooksy67]

for me now that i can run 2 full units of champs every turn and have them under the aura i dont care what kind of resources it takes me it will take my opponent even more resources to crack that shell

[Vineuk]

I'm quite happy with all the changes apart from Calandra - Feat and the Burrowers change.

Warmaching have caster like

High Exemplar Kreoss and Menoth's Wrath.

Once per game Kreoss can knock down all enemy models within his control area. Knocked down models are stationary targets, and are only DEF 5 against ranged attacks and automatically hit by melee attacks

Ok Warcaster and warbeast can now pay to stand up next turn, but of course that's if there still alive.

Gorten Grundback and Land Slide

Can Drag all models in control range upto 8" and Gives -3 to some SPD RAT and DEF


And there to name just 2 Warcasters from WM. How can you say Calandra feat was Over powered compared to those feats? I would be more than happy to swop the first version of her feat with either of the two above and think it was the best Xmas present ever. Did the people from PP have one too many at the Xmas party before making this change?

And What was so wrong with the Burrowers ? I never even considered buying them becuase they were usless in MK1. But I was considering it with there new rules. But once again now I wont bother. Unless used with Calandra old version of her feat. They were just an adverage unit that might do damage to low Arm models / units. With Calandra feat change they are no were near as OTT as before. After all a 1 or 2 can still be a 1 or a 2 on a rerole. But instead of changing one or the other and see if that made a differance. You changed both with out giving your players a chance to field test it and leave feed back for you. I don't mind taking a nerf when something is OTT but you gone from one extreme to the other. Changing it so the Burrowers didn't benafit from Calandra feat would of been good enought to at least warrent testing.

Over all I think you done some great work on Troll as a faction. But you just gone silly with the Calandra and Burrowers changes, it's like your clutching at strews for a solution. Add a bit more common sence to these two models like you have done on the rest of trolls and I'm pritty sure 99% will be happy.

[Kaptain Von]

You could always convert your Bloodgorgers into Champions...:D

I never bought the Bloodgorgers. Too many dud poses and bow legs in that unit for my liking. I'd be more likely to convert Champions into Bloodgorgers...

[Tweak]

I will say that Calandra's new feat feels a little sub par especially when you compare it to Mortenebra's recalibration feat which at least lets you re roll attack and damage rolls. I would offer that it just needs something changed or added to it to give it that little extra to make it something along the lines of what a feat turn should feel like.

[Saerko]

It still seems like the KSB is going to be too big of a burden on most troll armies though. While the loss of the *action is awesome, I still think it is just going to drain too much fury. Most troll warlocks just can't afford to dump fury into it each turn. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it should be able to drain directly from a beast. That would be ridiculous now that the *action is gone, and I'd much rather have that. I'm just curious if is still too resource intensive in your playtest games.

All depends on how you use that first turn of the game. Since threat ranges and AD have been really diminished across the board, I find I usually have a solid turn, maybe even two before I hit combat. In that time, I'm dumping any and all available Fury on the KSB. Even using Madrak, I've got the thing up to full by the end of Turn 2, and after that the maintenance is only 1 additional Fury per turn.

So effectively, you get +2 ARM on any and all models within the Aura, and even more bonuses if you take the Stone Scribe Elder. For 3-5 points, that's a no-brainer, and has been since...forever.

The problem came in when you ran up against really mobile armies or gunlines. Your opponent could flank, harass, and shoot you to death, and you either had to give up using the KSB for that game and take the damage, or stay chained to it and hope the additional ARM would save you. In both cases, you got screwed.

Now, the situation is a little different. At any time during your activation, you can dump Fury on the KSB. The KSB can then use that Fury to generate the aura. So after turn 1, your classic Madrak Brick is running 10" toward the enemy with +2 ARM (Aura) and +2 DEF (Sure Foot upkept). Against a Cygnar/Retribution gunline or Legion/Circle/Cryx harassment list, that's a really freaking big deal. You could also have it keep up with your ultra-fast Kriel Warriors and Long Riders. And don't forget Grissel handing it Hoof It for a 15" advance up the table...it's so good, I almost don't want to feedback anything for fear that they might return it to its previous rules.

[Hocky]

I am quite surprised at the change to the Kriel Stone Bearer. I always found that it was too slow to make impacts to the front lines that needed it. If they were going to change it I would have expected either increased speed or aura size. This is better. Run rock man run.
Burrowers now can be easily defeated. If a enemy unit just moves up and fills in the the area around the maker. A few may get out but I dont know about all 10. Plus they will be in melee of the enemy if they do and that is not were you want them. Interesting change. Not sure if its the best. Would have like an option to stay underground. One for the play testers. I dont have the models. I might get them I people start putting good strategies for them.
Nice for everything else that changed.

[Goris]

I have found the burrower change to be precarious. Aside from it just being tedious, you just lose them entirely if the enemy surrounds the marker. Seems silly to me...

[Sevwall]

Well, more testing shows that Mulg rocks now, and the Krielstone is cool, because who needs the aura to be really big when the thing isn't so damn slow.

I'd be happy if this thing was finalized right now.

[studderingdave]

as far as im concerned mulg can have no animus and im still gonna use him. his +1 SPD alone made the difference for me.

i was about to buy burrowers, until the change. glad i didnt.

[rydiafan]

Burrowers now can be easily defeated. If a enemy unit just moves up and fills in the the area around the maker.

I have found the burrower change to be precarious. Aside from it just being tedious, you just lose them entirely if the enemy surrounds the marker. Seems silly to me...

Why are you people putting the marker where it's so easy for the enemy to mob it? This is your failing, not the burrowers.

[Ravir]

The new Krielstone w/ SSE saved Calandra from some unruly Circle cav tonight. Kaya had made them stealth so I popped ksb aura with full fury and Spirit Chaser and ran forward to catch one cav model in range and make it non-stealthed. Calandra befuddled the unit into non-stealthed shooting range. Impaler crit slams one into a warpwolf to kill it, Thumper slams another into a 3rd cav to kill both of them.

The Burrowers got an ancillary use as a flank that an Argus had to ignore on an assassination run, and took 5 of 6 shots on Calandra's Feat turn to kill it off. Still not sold on the new Burrowers forced pop, but they may still be a viable tool when used properly, just not to the previous "OMG PYGZ!!11!" level.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Why are you people putting the marker where it's so easy for the enemy to mob it? This is your failing, not the burrowers.

So what you are saying is, don't put the marker within 10-12" of any enemy unit with reach? Good to know. Thanks for the help.

*EDIT* Nice, didn't notice that the Spirit chaser might actually be good with the run change.

[rydiafan]

So what you are saying is, don't put the marker within 10-12" of any enemy unit with reach? Good to know. Thanks for the help.

Neither of the people I quoted were talking about the burrowers coming up engaged. They were talking about the opponent filling 78" of board space completely with models so that the burrowers auto-die. I stand by my statement that if that ever happens it is your fault for putting them in that situation.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I do think they should get gunfighter, at least on the turn they surface.

[ColdYinTiger]

Damn them listening to us about the Krielstone. Now I have to paint the damn thing because it can keep up with my Borka lists...

I just hope they ditch Cooler for another army buff spell.