Sentinel & TCG Hope

[Elmiranda]

I do not know if many of you have downloaded the new Hordes update but there was an adjustment to the Seraph's strafe. It is now d3+1.

Now I hope I am not getting anyone's hopes up but PP said that they would not change rules that duplicate any of the rules in the Warmachine Mk 2. So could this mean that the strafe rules were adjusted before the Cygnar book went to print?

I do not know but maybe they were:)

[Gorbad]

Probably not as the original Strafe was D6 still. We might get an errate to the Strafe to make it like that or maybe the Seraph will just get a differently named rule in the final rules.

[knight_actual]

could just be Strafe [d3+1]

[Jice_]

could just be Strafe [d3+1]

Exactly. Anything in the [] is changeable without changing the name of the ability because it references just the [] in the actual ability rules. It could be [4d6+27] and still be called Strafe.

Chances we see a change = .12%
PP already has thier first printed copy of PrimeMK2, Sentinel is pretty much locked in unless they add an errata.

[arides]

It could be [4d6+27] and still be called Strafe.

I know it is just an exaple, but right now I imagining a stormchamber powered Cyclone with massive ammotanks for steamboilers, which is pointing its four chainguns right in the face of Cygnars enemies. :D

But I like the "Strafe [xd6+y]" idea, because of the Cyclone. I.e. if you diside to fire a Strafe rather than two independent shots (a part of me wishes he may be able to fire two indendent strafes ;)) with Strafe [1d6+3].

[tneva82]

I do not know if many of you have downloaded the new Hordes update but there was an adjustment to the Seraph's strafe. It is now d3+1.

Now I hope I am not getting anyone's hopes up but PP said that they would not change rules that duplicate any of the rules in the Warmachine Mk 2. So could this mean that the strafe rules were adjusted before the Cygnar book went to print?

I do not know but maybe they were:)

a) the [xd] thingie is likely designed so that it can be different for each one. Actually screw that likely. Sentinel has strafe[d6], trencher chain gun has [d3+1].
b) what hope you are refering? That both would get [d3+1] instead of current? Well chaingun would benefit but sentinel would be hurt. Average result of 3.5 swapped to average result of 2? Thanks but no thanks.

[Killionaire]

I doubt the sentinel, chaingun or cyclone is going to feel the hope.

Cyclone maybe, since we have no idea how it works. But the Sentinel and TCG were both done long before the Hordes field Test. We got the 'final' stats, and the Cygnar stuff is finalized, because we have at least one card available for Cygnar already, Caine's in the 2009 resculpt. That means Cygnar's big card sheets have been printed.

[pureblood]

Whats the point of creating a MkII rule set to just errata it before it's released???????

[Elmiranda]

I understand what you are all saying and you are probably right. Where the hope comes from is the outside chance that a change took place. The Seraph suffered from the same ROF issues that the Sentinel suffers from. If PP arrived at a conclusion that it needed to be adjusted on the Seraph, maybe they arrived at the same conclusion with the Sentinel a couple months back.
If one change happened maybe others might have to. I will admit it is a fools hope.

[phreaker187]

Which is why they should of done both field tests at the same time. Oh well too late for that.

[Professor Lust]

why would strafe have to be equal across the gamut of models in the PP universe?

Strafe as Strafe [dX+y] compared to Strafe is a fairly brilliant design concept as it allows more design space. As MK2 is designed to limit the number of special rules which caused unintended rules concepts, this move makes sense.


Moreover creating variable Strafe levels makes sense from a "real world" perspective too. M60s and M249s in theory have the same abilities (high rates of fire) but the actual field conditions show they actually have very different roles.

[Defenstrator]

) what hope you are refering? That both would get [d3+1] instead of current? Well chaingun would benefit but sentinel would be hurt. Average result of 3.5 swapped to average result of 2? Thanks but no thanks. The average of 1+d3 is 3, not 2. And I believe this would be an improvement for the sentienl becaue with 2 guaranteed shots I can actually risk putting more than one focus on him. Plus they might increase his range ri the POW of the weapon since it would be no longer possible to shoot the same target 6 times.

[Fryerdan]

I tested out the new sentinel in vassal. For it's cost it's totally not worth it since it's a straight d6. the TCG is far far superior in bang for the buck with d3+3 when ammo feeder is b2b as a 2 point unit vs a 4 point jack. The TCG also has suppressing fire that the sentinel lacks. I own 2 TCG's and love them, I will never buy a sentinel as is.

[bouncymischa]

The TCG already gets d3+3, so I can't really see that changing. I suppose people are hoping it could get d3+1 without the loader (and thus d3+4 with it?), but that's probably not going to happen.

I can see the appeal in the Sentinel's Strafe going to d3+1, since I think a lot of people would favor it (in terms of making the gun more reliable focus-wise), but as people have said it's pretty much already in print, so it's probably too late to see a change.

I really need to throw together a Kraye list sometime to test them out... -.-

[isawatsuke]

im actually still meh at sentinel at d3 +1. Id still rather bring the black 13th.... I might be the only one but it would take a lot more for me to like the sentinel.

[Agamemnon]

All I want is Dude to still love his personal sent.... Or Kray... or... well.... o well..

[Sevwall]

There is no average for d3+1. You have an equal chance to get all rolls.

You actually have the same chance to get at least 3 attacks with d3+1 than with d6.

[Serric]

even if the Sentinel's strafe changed to D3+1 vice D3, the attack would still suffer from RNG 10, POW 10.

The only things scared by the Sentinel are models that are easy to kill with a POW 10.

[Soulblighter]

The Sentinel needs Strafe[1d3+1] and POW12. But then it would probably have to cost 5 points.

[Fryerdan]

I have little problem with pow 10 attack. What i have a problem with is spending 4 points on a pow 10 range 10 that is completely unreliable as far as the number of shots it's going to get. there's really no justification for its existance other than a chunk of metal to block shots until it's a wreck marker and can give my troops cover.

[Professor Lust]

in my opinion the sent is a jack best run in as a flight.

You only run them against 1 wound arm 15/16 def 13-15 models.


The pow 10 doesn't kill jacks but its not supposed to wreck armor.

Got an infantry problem? Two to Three sents will wipe it out.

You might say TH or Cyclone does it "better" but then you gotta consider that two-3 sents are more durable and more flexible.


Bascially I gotta say welcome to MK2. The sent will make appearances when i know my opponent eg league/friendly game where it will do some good. If its completely blind it wont make it. In tourney games it really depends on whether or not it gets functionality back with the dude.

Kraye is the "Best" caster with them as his spell is a flat 3 focus regardless of which jacks are being fielded. So a couple of sents a couple of defenders and a couple of hunters all benefite from 3 focus.


Me the sent is the prime example of a Mk2 jack

[Gorbad]

Funny, because I'd say the Charge is a prime example of a MK 2 jack, where as the Sentinel is a prime example of a MK 1 jack.

The Charge is all-round useful, it's pretty accurate, it can consume a lot of resources but doesn't have to, work in several configurations and can do multiple things.

The Sentinel is completely random and rather situational, seemingly meant to combat an army type you might not see that much, requires a lot of help to work well and will usually only see the table for very specific situations.

[Ysthrall]

I'm intending to use the Senitnel a few times on any elven armies that I run across. Either a Def penalty from TB, or a mass knockdown from earthquake, and the Sent should do pretty well shooting up elven infantry. For that matter, That was pretty well what it did in Mk1 in my games, shoot up infantry, and tie up a counterattack.

Ah, I'm babbling.

When do the Cyclone rules come out? With our book?

[Virgil38]

Cyclone will be part of our Jack Kit in Jan.

[Fryerdan]

for the same point cost i'd take a charger any day of the week. Much more reliability and utility.

Against elves the sentinel is especially useless. most of ret has stealth and they have a unit that's whole shtick is rolling 3d6 against jacks. One turn and the sentinel is toast against them.

[Defenstrator]

There is no average for d3+1. You have an equal chance to get all rolls. True, but the "average" is 3 the same way as the "average" for 1d6 is 3.5. It's what people expect to get over a number of games.

As for the Sentinel vs Retribution, currently it blows. The Dawnguard models can all just stand next to each other ofr ARM 17, just bouncing its shots. The Mage Hunters have Stealth, and even if you run it with Siege or Kraye who have Magesight, are too spread out for the Strafe to do much. And of course they just mangle it with jack hunter. It does nothing to their jacks, and is just generaly useless.

But you know what I hate most about the Sentinel? The fact that PP was told all this in the field test and it didn't change.

[Gorbad]

With two dice you have a bell curve and so some results are more likely to come up than others. With one die any result is equally likely so it makes even less sense to talk about averages there than it does usually.

[Soulblighter]

Strafe[d3+1] wouldnt fix the Sentinel. The Sentinel is only POW10 so it needs to make up for its lack of POW with volume of shots. At the very least the Sentinel needs Strafe[2d3].

[Virgil38]

It needs either a POW increase or 1d3+3. If I knew I could walk in there with 4 shots, even at POW 10, I would be more inclined to take it.

The only thing I can think of why PP would abandon the Sentinel like that is if Sloan will do some insane thing with Sentinels that would make them entirely broken (which would still be lame and it still leaves the model on the bench).

[brotherscott]

I know I am in the minority here, but I like the way strafes work in MK II.

The plus side is that you don't have to rely on the first hit to get the additional attacks. On average rolls, you get 3 attacks. Most of the time your target options will be limited and there will be very little to shoot at within 2" of the original target.
The Chain Gun is a hoot to take in MK II, having most recently taken down Runeshapers and Kriel Warriors with the d3+3 Strafe from Ammo Feeder.
I think the Sentinel and Chain Gun are good models, providing some board control and anti-infantry options. Great models? No, but they do have a role on the battlefield.

[Gorbad]

On average rolls, you get 3 attacks.

There is no average roll on a single die. You are as likely to get 3 attacks as you are to get 1 or 6 or anything else. The results of the rolls will average out to somewhere between 3 and 4 over a huge number of games but that have virtually no bearing on any one individual game. Multiple dice gives you a bell curve so you can better predict an expected result, for instance there is a good likelihood of 2d6 giving a result of 6-8, but no such thing exist for a single die.

The Chaingun is a lot more predictable and consistent, where the d3 is really more of a bonus than anything else and it have a useful special action too. It might not be the best piece but I can easily see specific roles for that.

[JPRoth1980]

There is no average roll on a single die. You are as likely to get 3 attacks as you are to get 1 or 6 or anything else. The results of the rolls will average out to somewhere between 3 and 4 over a huge number of games but that have virtually no bearing on any one individual game. Multiple dice gives you a bell curve so you can better predict an expected result, for instance there is a good likelihood of 2d6 giving a result of 6-8, but no such thing exist for a single die.

You are confusing mean with mode, I'm afraid.

When rolling 1d6, the mean/average result is 3.5. This is found by taking all the possible outcomes and dividing them by the total number of possible outcomes. Sure, you are statistically just as likely to roll a 1 as you are a 6, but over time your rolls should tend towards 3.5.

When rolling 2d6, there are 36 possible outcomes, all of which are just as likely as the next. However, the total outcome which is most likely, and is therefore highest on the bell curve, is the number 7. 7 is, therefore, the most likely outcome of a roll of 2d6. Now, 7 also happens to be the mean of a roll of 2d6, but that's just a happy coincidence and does not necessarily hold true for any and all number sets.

[Fryerdan]

The TCG is very very good at what it does and I like it alot. The sentinel leaves me scratching my head as to it's purpose. Other than being a randomly shooty shield. If it had shield guard or a 1 + d6 strafe perhaps I could find a home for it but alas it does not. At the end of the day it doesn't earn it's point cost. I'd even take a grundback gunner over it.

I don't even understand how they could call it a strafe if it has an equal chance of firing one lousy bullet. There's enough chance in just making an attack roll and a respectable damage roll without the added uncertainty of another roll it might fall flat on. Why on earth would anyone field a unit that has a 1 in six chance of being almost useless?

[Saleem]

The sentinel leaves me scratching my head as to it's purpose...

True that, though it does have its uses it is a bit too random to be planning actions around and is more like one of those pieces that you play just because you like the way it looks. Personally Strafe d6+1 would have been enough to not be such a deal breaker or even d3+3 for better consistency.

[Elmiranda]

I wish they had gone with a set number as opposed to the variable one. They would be able to account for the points cost a lot easier and we would be able to see some reliable performance from our 'jack.
In any case, all I as implying is that maybe there was enough time to slide a change or two in before our book went to print. If what we got is what we got then so be it. Cygnar is still a very good faction regardless.