Legion SAD

[Falk]

Many have already pondered if we are the shooty faction of Hordes, so I wondered - what's the best we can do in ranged combat? What does the best Legion SAD look like?

I think it's obvious that the two Lylyths are the warlocks of choice.

Lylyth has her Feat and the awesome Parasite.
I'd team her up with combined ranged attacks to make good use of Parasite. Actually, POW 10 is decent against everything except the tougher Heavies if supported by that great ARM debuff. She doesnt need Seraphs.

eLylyth has her Feat +1 RAT, Arcane Hunter and mass stealth.
When mk2 came out I thought she was pretty bad because her Feat was nerfed. Only affecting battlegroup? We don't have the beasts to capitalize on this. With the recent changes to the Seraph this might change - d3+1 is so much better and more fun than d6 and Fury 4 is nice to have, too. Her main disadvantage is the lack of Parasite and thus her problems dealing with high ARM units.

What would a SAD army look like? What else to field? Typhon with his Sprays and some major damage output? Or rather an Angelius? Carni? Do we need a Heavy at all in a SAD list (not counting the Seraph)? Is Vayl much better as a SAD warlock, with Incite and a bunch of Seraphs?

Is SAD viable at all or do we need melee beatsticks?

[stray_bullett]

what does SAD mean :(

[Falk]

Sorry. :)

SAD: Shooty army of Doom or shooty army of Death.
A term from WHFB, I think originally applied to a Skaven army that relied heavily on ranged combat.

Basically it means that you don't just bring shooty stuff to support your melee troops but rather bring only or almost only ranged units and win by bombing your oponent back to the stone ages.

[Malkav13]

SAD is a perfectly viable strategy for Legion now. Almost all of our casters can help support it in some way now.
You already mentioned Vayl, both Lylth's EThagrosh, Rhyas with rapport (going to a RAT 6), Saeryn with breathstealer, all can boost your ability to hit.
Combine this with our troops, such as the Striders and Archers+UA, and Legion can put quite the hurt on when it comes to ranged combat.

[Angelust]

I'm not so sure about that. Casters like eThags, Vayl, Rhyas Rapport, are really beast buffers, and our beasts don't really have much in the way of ranged except sprays.

Seraph with its current strafe is not really useful in a ranged meta, because it's 10" range and leaves itself open to counter-attack. Ranged meta I think usually requires at least 12+" in order to avoid getting charged by what you're shooting at.

As it is, our ranged units seem more about harassment then actual dedicated range. Archers are kind of meh currently even with UA, and Striders are pretty decent, but are expensive and fragile for their points and output. Raptors are great, but again, only really useful at taking down solos, beasts, and harassing heavy infantry, but they're pretty much a waste against jacks.

I think our best ranged unit is the deathstalker, but it's like Widowmakers for Khador. Great to add 2 to a list to pick off shield-wallers and infantry, but you're not gonna spam them.

Honestly, I feel like Spray attacks are the new ranged meta for us. Typhon under Manifest Destiny or incite basically destroys infantry, and even dents Jacks from 8". Ignoring cover, combat, stealth, etc, is just golden 3 times.

[Neutralyze]

why dont seraphs work well with plylyth? there is something about strafe pow12 one -3 armor targets or the pow 14 mat 6 feated crit poison attacks as well......

[DevonV]

Two Seraphs with Vayl is a minimum of 4 RAT 7, POW 14 shots, and you could get 8. Screen them with Legionnaires, Seraphs fly over, shoot, then Legionnaires run around and screen again. Just don't leave enough room for a trample and you're good. You can also get creative with Slipstream by using it to back away after attacking, and you have Leash as well, not to mention Cat and Mouse.

Add Typhon for RAT 7 POW 16 sprays of doom, and maybe an Angelius for Dark Sentinel and putting the finishing blow on something really heavy.

I'm going to have to try that next game, actually...

[Falk]

why dont seraphs work well with plylyth?
I never said they don't work well! What I said was that she doesn't need Seraphs, because thanks to Parasite our normal POW 10 ranged attacks do well, too. Of course one could easily include 1-2 Seraphs and have them perform well anyway.


Seraph with its current strafe is not really useful in a ranged meta, because it's 10" range and leaves itself open to counter-attack.
Yeah, you're right. The same is true for the sprays. Real SAD would need to consist of mainly range 12" weapons. But throwing a Heavy into the mix seems a great idea in pretty much every list.
And about the harrassment thing - I don't know if you can win games with a hit&run force, especially in scenario play.

[Mezzanine]

Rhyas SAD seems like fun. Stealth on Raptors. Rapport on Carnivean for a RAT 6 megaspray. Dash archers, striders, deathstalkers out of engagement. Bring some Incubi to benefit from the feat. 1 Seraph for redundancy and animus.

Rhyas
Carnivean
Seraph
5 Raptors
10 Blighted Archers + UA
Striders + UA
Deathstalker
5 Incubi
Shepherd

50pts. Probably get rolled by AOEs but it could be fun using up every inch of your board.

[OldOneEye]

I wouldn't have thought that a SAD would have been necessarily viable, but I might think otherwise after tonight's game. I wanted to playtest things I hadn't used before, and give Lylyth2 a go as she seems lacking to me. 50 points against a Kraye army with 3 heavies and a min. unit of Storm Lances-- not a good match-up for my shooting.

With shooting, I boxed a Hammersmith, two Storm Lances, wiped out a unit of Trenchers, softened up an Ironclad enough for a Forsaken to finish it off in melee, and took down Kraye. That's with a warlock that doesn't really do anything for her army's shooting outside of the feat turn.

My shooty elements were min. Raptors, full Archers+UA, Striders+UA, one Deathstalker, a Seraph, an Angelius, and Lylyth2 herself.

Raptors have the RAT, mobility, and poisoned arrows to deal with most problem solos. Archers are a big CRA unit-- combine for damage, accuracy, or both. Striders can do fair damage, but are best used to eliminate units trying to hide in terrain. Deathstalkers are near-perfect snipers.

I didn't face the absolute worst match-up imaginable tonight, but I don't think it was a good one for my particular army. Still, my shooting was versatile enough to grant me a lopsided win.

[meleemadness]

Playing a themed circle army....I know one thing; range is KING in this game. WM or Hordes, ranges dominates the game.