Seraph

[Taegmar]

I'm looking at the Seraph and I just can't get enthusiastic over him. I typically play against Circle and I don't see him as that effective now.

He's the only Heavy with less than 4 Fury and with his RAT of 5, I'm not impressed, especially for 8 points. And in melee, he has one attack. Why couldn't they also give him a bite attack? He's no threat I fear. IMO he needs to get at least +1 fury, +1 RAT and a bite attack to really make him a heavy.

I'm sorry if this has already been posted and discussed elsewhere. I seem to have missed it.

[nachtnebel]

Take a look at the last update: http://files.privateerpress.com/hordes/HORDES%20Model%20Update%2020091211.pdf

[Taegmar]

Ta. I just saw that. So he's got his Fury sorted, but still is lacking in the ways of a heavy. :(

[Hjelmen0]

Strafe is also much better after the update. What "killed" the Seraph for me was that I was paying 8 pts. for a totally unreliable ranged attack. Now you're guaranteed 2-4 shots, and with 4 fury, it's just awesome.

With Slipstream, the new Strafe and more fury, I really do think that it's worth it's 8 points.

[Taegmar]

Still needs a bite attack. :(

[JaggedToothGrin]

the strafe change was overall a nerf. it gives you a better result 1 out of 6 shots, gives the same result 2 out of 6 shots, and gives a worse result 3 out of 6 shots.
the extra fury is nice, but its not gonna make up for the weight of shots it once had. the quantity of shots was what made strafe a useful tool. personally, it seems like a continued push to make seraphs into a (quite poor) melee heavy
the tail is more accurate (better mat than rat, ignores more modifiers) and does more damage (higher base power, and a crit effect) and it has an effective "RoF" of 5, which means it can dish out more hits than the strafe can aswell.
try switching its animus with the angelius and see which one sees more tabletime.

[Hjelmen0]

the strafe change was overall a nerf. it gives you a better result 1 out of 6 shots, gives the same result 2 out of 6 shots, and gives a worse result 3 out of 6 shots.
I most certainly prefer the new version to the totally unreliable D6 attacks. Making an 8 pts. model "worth it" when you get lucky just isn't for me, but different strokes I guess.

To me it's a beast the can shoot well, and then also do some damage in melee. I think that it is both a proper ranged and melee fighter, but not focussed on doing one of them extremely well.

[Voltimor]

Maybe give it a force ability like Disengage it can move up to 2" and cannot be targeted by free strikes during that movement to move out of melee range without loosing aim bonus to use it shooty agian ?

[Taegmar]

I keep looking back and wondering why I can't seem to be able to match a Circle players melee output with my beasts. I know I'm not a particularly good player and I also know that the God of Dice Rolls and I have had a big falling out (the B@$+@£d). So when I've gone back and looked at things, I see why:

Troll Bloods:
6 Light - Attack: 2 x 1, 2 x 2; fury all have 3
4 Heavy - Attack: all with 2; Fury: 1 x 4, 3 x 5

Circle:
4 Light - Attack: 1 x 1, 3 x 2; Fury: 1 x 2 (construct), 2 x 3, 1 x 4
6 Heavy - Attack: 3 x 2, 3 x 3; Fury: all have 4

Skorne:
5 Light - Attack: 4 x 1, 1 x 2; Fury: all have 3
5 Heavy - Attack: 2 x 2, 3 x 3; Fury - 4 x 4, 1 x 5

Legion:
2 Lesser - Attack: 1 each; Fury: 2 each
4 Light - Attack: 3 x 1, 1 x 2; Fury - all have 3
4 Heavy - Attack: 2 x 1, 2 x 3; Fury - all have 4 now

Have we Legion done something to upset the designers? Not only do we get the least option for minions to join us, but our melee is... umm... not. When 70% of our beasts collection has only a single melee attack, we're given the short straw. I keep getting beaten up by Wolves and Satyrs that cost 2-4 points less than my Carni and, on the whole, have a greater melee output. :(

[Taegmar]

Maybe give it a force ability like Disengage it can move up to 2" and cannot be targeted by free strikes during that movement to move out of melee range without loosing aim bonus to use it shooty agian ?

But why then have they given it such a reasonable melee attack? Wasted.

[Gen_eV]

Personally, I think it's fine as it is now.

I've got a guaranteed pair of double-boosted POW12s to back up the fact it has slipstream, and that's good enough for me.

(of course, as a primarily Vayl player, they'll often be POW14s, but that's beside the point ;))

[Voltimor]

For melee you have beter warbeast it just feel beter to use Seraph for shooty. force Disengage then move to a place shoot the target you want to take and leave the model or unit that did engage Seraph for one of your other Beasts or units. Is just a idea to make Seraph abit playable :)

[Bearded Dragon]

I keep getting beaten up by Wolves and Satyrs that cost 2-4 points less than my Carni and, on the whole, have a greater melee output.

The Shadowhorn does have three melee attacks, but they are at mat 5 and all of them are power 13. The Carnivean beast the stuffings out of that one. The Feral is a melee monster. The Pureblood is more of a shooter than can fight. I don't own a Gnarlhorn.

Are you talking about Circle warbeasts under the affects of Primal? If so, then you are including buffs, and that changes things a lot.

[Taegmar]

I'm only referring to MkII now, though I was still getting pulped in MkI.

I was comparing the Carni as he's our big hitter (I don't have Typhon... yet!) but I just can't get round the fact that the melee equivalent to the Carni is matched in 4 different Heavy's in the Circle list. Admittedly, the attacks aren't as strong as our Carni, but he's one figure and I'm talking about the number of attacks to throw about.

With the more attacks and equal Fury (and I'm not asking to boost our Fury, though it would be nice ;)) We're having to boost to throw an attack while what we face is boosted hits for the same number. :(

[Taegmar]

You are unaware, that there has been two updates since HMK2 launched, as well. The second update had changes to the Seraph.

Things you wrote here were granted. Seraph is now peachy and worth 8pts.

Enjoy

I disagree that he's worth 8 points. 6 points tops. The fury increase was definitely needed, but the Strafe alteration isn't a true improvement - depends how luck you are with dice rolls, so for me, yeah it could be a bonus. ;) But he is lacking in comparison to the norm for Heavies. Only Legion Heavies have 1 attack. That's poor and my looking at the Seraph has me seeing more of that. :(

[jonconcarne]

I disagree that he's worth 8 points. 6 points tops. The fury increase was definitely needed, but the Strafe alteration isn't a true improvement - depends how luck you are with dice rolls, so for me, yeah it could be a bonus.

Anything that takes an unreliable beast and turns it into a reliable beast is an improvement in my book. No more advancing to be 10" away and rolling a 1 for strafe... twice. Minimum 2-4 shots will greatly average that out. I'll trade an unreliable shot that can either decimate or do nothing any day for something that I can plan around.

[Blaque]

I keep looking back and wondering why I can't seem to be able to match a Circle players melee output with my beasts. I know I'm not a particularly good player and I also know that the God of Dice Rolls and I have had a big falling out (the B@$+@£d). So when I've gone back and looked at things, I see why:
What Circle beasts are beating you into the ground? Because off the top of my head, on their own, the only ones who are the uber killing machiens are Feral Warpwolves. That's always been the case on them too.


Troll Bloods:
6 Light - Attack: 2 x 1, 2 x 2; fury all have 3
4 Heavy - Attack: all with 2; Fury: 1 x 4, 3 x 5
Just looking at FUR stats does not really give you a good idea of things as a whole. Note that Trollloods have no real fury management save Whelps, which die after they are used for said fury management, unlike Forsaken. FUR5 beasts looks cool until you find out your warlocks can only run so much outside of Calandra.


Circle:
4 Light - Attack: 1 x 1, 3 x 2; Fury: 1 x 2 (construct), 2 x 3, 1 x 4
6 Heavy - Attack: 3 x 2, 3 x 3; Fury: all have 4
You seem to be looking at volume of attacks, not power of them. Woldwatchers, which cost teh same as your Nepheilim Soldiers, ahve MAT5 and P+S12. They also have FUR2, so its not them doing the killing. Goraxes are ugly balls of hatred, but our lights overall don't hit hard compared to Legion ones and also note we have distinctly less of them. Six heavies in fact.

On heavies, volume sure as hell doesn't equal quality. Shadowhorns are MAT 5 and P+S13 on all their attacks. THat bounces off Carniveans with Spiney Growth and will miss Shredders and Raeks a lot of the time without boosts. Gnarlhorns usually slam, loosing their extra attacks. Woldwardens and Megalith have pretty accurate attacks, but compared to Carniveans or Angels, pretty pillow-fisted (1 P+S 14 armor-piercing attack is going to do a crapload then two P+S15 attacks.)

The only real "comeptitor' with Carniveans on sheer-out killing power are Feral Warpwolves, who have P+S 17/17/16 when Warping Strength. It has better accuracy and defensive stats then the Carnivean, but still lacks the extra attack from the spray, All-Terrain, higher damage output and cahrge angles. So just raw numbers, again, doesn't show everything. Especially on these specific numbers. Circle has a lot of high-accuracy, low-P+S attacks. That isn't new.

Also, Wodlwardens are FUR3 again.


Skorne:
5 Light - Attack: 4 x 1, 1 x 2; Fury: all have 3
5 Heavy - Attack: 2 x 2, 3 x 3; Fury - 4 x 4, 1 x 5
Ask the Skorne players how much they love their FUR5 beast. You'll be quite amused.


Legion:
2 Lesser - Attack: 1 each; Fury: 2 each
4 Light - Attack: 3 x 1, 1 x 2; Fury - all have 3
4 Heavy - Attack: 2 x 1, 2 x 3; Fury - all have 4 now
Note that sheer attacks doesn't really describe much. Seraphs are pretty much a heavy gun platform, the cheapest heavy shooty warjack or warbeast in the game even. Just having access to lessers adds a lot of power to the faction that I think is hard to ignore.


Have we Legion done something to upset the designers? Not only do we get the least option for minions to join us, but our melee is... umm... not. When 70% of our beasts collection has only a single melee attack, we're given the short straw. I keep getting beaten up by Wolves and Satyrs that cost 2-4 points less than my Carni and, on the whole, have a greater melee output. :(
Legion runs with hard-hitting, single attacks. Circle (save Feral Warpwolves) runs with a lot of high-accuracy, soft-hitting attacks. Also note that Feral Warpwolves cost less becasue they have one less effective attack (Assault), no built-in Pathfinder or Eyeless Sight (hard to hide from a Carnivean), less P+S without outside support, less ARM without outside support (and if it has close ARM, is even less solidly hitting), less wounds and argueably better outside offensive support even in the end (Arcane Killer, Primal, FOrced Evoltuion, Lightning Tendrils and Stone Skin v. Carnivorous, Incite, Manifest Destiny, Raport, Parasite, Forced Evoltuion, and Spney Growth come to mind.)

And stuff.

[Taegmar]

Ta Blaque. A few things there for me to mull over. I can't say as I have considered STR in all of this, I was more hooked on numbers of attacks and boosts to hit.

btw. I get bashed about by the Warp Wolf (usually taking Warp Strength) and both the Satyrs, as my friend has a fetish for head-butts lately, often backed up by that b.....d Alten Ashley. :(

[Loveless]

With the exception of Typhon, I'm quite happy with our Heavies right now.

The Carnivean is a beast of a Warbeast - especially when properly buffed.
The Angel is a flame-shooting spear of killy goodness, possibly better than before (sans the Animus).
The Seraph is a capable gunboat - able to hit a target reliably with 2 fully-boosted POW 12s when the need arises.
Typhon...needs his Reach back. His edit didn't look bad on paper, but it's not really making him much fun on the table.

Our lights are all decent. The Soldier could use some form of Glide, but he's fine for his cost. The Teraph is still sending some mixed signals, but he's also fine for his cost. The Raek is yummy. The Protector is pretty solid as well.

The lessers are fine, though I'd like the Harrier to have a higher DEF than the Shredder, it's not necessary.

Put Typhon back where he was and I think our Beasts are pretty well sorted.

[Thunder_God]

I think the new Seraph is better than the pre-update Seraph.

What bothers me about the Seraph is that it's supposed to be a ranged beast, right? And it's more effective as a melee beast.

Heck, even with pLylyth, I'd much rather use his tail, get the crit poison, do more damage even before boosting, without the crit...
Seraph still needs and deserves, as our "premier ranged beast" a RAT 6.

[Aedric]

You sum up my thoughts loveless. The soldier and teraph are a tad lacking for me. But only a tad.

Small tweaks make all the difference.

[Soulblighter]

What bothers me about the Seraph is that it's supposed to be a ranged beast, right? And it's more effective as a melee beast.

This bothers me as well. The Seraph doesnt feel like a gunboat at all anymore. It USED to feel like a gunboat. It was fast and maneuverable and could pop out of nowhere and blast away a heavy jack. Now it just fires its gun once, gets locked in melee, and dies. I feel like Legion really needs an animus that gets our warbeasts out of melee. Something that makes ignoring freestrikes balanced.

[zpavlov]

This bothers me as well. The Seraph doesnt feel like a gunboat at all anymore. It USED to feel like a gunboat. It was fast and maneuverable and could pop out of nowhere and blast away a heavy jack. Now it just fires its gun once, gets locked in melee, and dies. I feel like Legion really needs an animus that gets our warbeasts out of melee. Something that makes ignoring freestrikes balanced.

Isn't a second seraph using his animus exactly that?

[Necra-Chi]

This bothers me as well. The Seraph doesnt feel like a gunboat at all anymore. It USED to feel like a gunboat. It was fast and maneuverable and could pop out of nowhere and blast away a heavy jack. Now it just fires its gun once, gets locked in melee, and dies. I feel like Legion really needs an animus that gets our warbeasts out of melee. Something that makes ignoring freestrikes balanced.

:confused: You mean like the animus that COMES WITH THE SERAPH?

:rolleyes:

[Neutralyze]

:confused: You mean like the animus that COMES WITH THE SERAPH?

:rolleyes:

all lies! i call shennanigans!

Seraph is good. can do both melee and ranged. has atleast 2 shots now and max four. with plylyth can go into melee with pow 14 crit poison and hope to get it. before charging in wasnt an option because he was safer at ranged with strafe and getting the same pow hits out. now he can go in with higher damage on melee buying more attacks at higher mat and pow.

[jonconcarne]

This bothers me as well. The Seraph doesnt feel like a gunboat at all anymore. It USED to feel like a gunboat. It was fast and maneuverable and could pop out of nowhere and blast away a heavy jack. Now it just fires its gun once, gets locked in melee, and dies. I feel like Legion really needs an animus that gets our warbeasts out of melee. Something that makes ignoring freestrikes balanced.

I beg to differ. I was teaching my friend how to play, so I gave him my legion and I played as cryx for a 15 pt game. With one Seraph, he rolled a 5 for his strafe attack, so he got 4 attacks. He was using Lylyth, and so he was also going to try and decimate my arc node with his other seraph. One of his attacks against my Seether missed, and he totalled it in 3 shots. Granted, he was rolling above average for his dmg rolls, but to say that it can't be a gunboat is quite wrong I think. Paired with the right casters, they can be very efficient. Even if he didn't kill my Seether with the first Seraph, he could have brought the other to bear on my Seether instead of attacking my arc node. Personally, I think it's better as a gunboat than it was in Mk1 just due to the reliability and 4 fury. It's a very powerful ranged beast. I can't think of any other beast that can really compare as a mobile gunboat.

[Soulblighter]

You mean like the animus that COMES WITH THE SERAPH?

No I dont mean that animus. That animus doesnt work for getting a Seraph out of melee. A Seraph cant use it on itself. Plus its not like there arnt tons of models with 2" reach anyway. Slipstream is inadequate for that purpose.


I can't think of any other beast that can really compare as a mobile gunboat.

I consider the Pureblood Warpwolf to be a better "mobile gunboat". It may only get one shot but you cant lock it down in melee and it ALWAYS gets to shoot no matter what. Thats what I consider to be a mobile gunboat, ROF comes secondary to ignoring freestrikes. The Seraph gets tied up in melee and becomes immobile too easily.

[zpavlov]

No I dont mean that animus. That animus doesnt work for getting a Seraph out of melee. A Seraph cant use it on itself. Plus its not like there arnt tons of models with 2" reach anyway. Slipstream is inadequate for that purpose.

ah, but that's why you use two seraphs.

[Neutralyze]

No I dont mean that animus. That animus doesnt work for getting a Seraph out of melee. A Seraph cant use it on itself. Plus its not like there arnt tons of models with 2" reach anyway. Slipstream is inadequate for that purpose.

the last time i checked reach units rarely fully base a model. it needs to fully base in order to prevent SS.

[Soulblighter]

ah, but that's why you use two seraphs.

We shouldnt have to use two Seraphs. Slipstream should be changed so a Seraph can use it on itself. A 16 point investment is too much for a cornercase trick like that.


the last time i checked reach units rarely fully base a model. it needs to fully base in order to prevent SS

If Im playing against Seraphs with reach models you can bet im going to base them. comon thats anti-legion 101.

[alchahest]

if being surrounded is a corner case, then why are you so worried about it?

[Neutralyze]

We shouldnt have to use two Seraphs. Slipstream should be changed so a Seraph can use it on itself. A 16 point investment is too much for a cornercase trick like that.



If Im playing against Seraphs with reach models you can bet im going to base them. comon thats anti-legion 101.

then i pray youre running to base or those models would be dead before it happened. the reason why reach is good is due to having better threat ranges. if youre trying to charge to base then you are missing out on those extra 2".

[Necra-Chi]

You don't even need two seraphs, you can use your warlock.

But you will find that when playing multiple seraphs, being tied up in melee is not as much of a problem as you propose.

[alchahest]

You'd think with the prevalance of "of course if I was playing legion I'd do this" anti-legion 101 tactics that crop up again and again, we'd have definitive ways to beat anyone. since we'd know exactly what all of our opponents would do in all situations.

I would send a seraph way off to the flank. like /way/ off. as we all know the opponent is going to send all of their beasts and/or infantry to box it, so that leaves the caster open. bada boom.

[Necra-Chi]

If any of my previous opponents from when I played seraph spam were reading this they would probably be a bit peeved at the suggestion that the seraph is anything other than a gunship.

Twice at Oz Nationals, on turn to I told my opponent something to the effect of "I think your caster is within 18" of this seraph here, I'm just going to quickly see if that seraph can finish it and then get on with the rest of my turn". And a minute later I was off to look at cosplayers.

Now we can always get two fully boosted shots a turn, and occasionally can get two fully boosted shots ignoring intervening models if the target is too close to the intervening models.

[Thunder_God]

Let's look at a comparison though.

1. Compared to the MAT/RAT buffs, the Seraph got worse, at shooting.
2. With the new tail +2 PS, the Seraph, well, even if he shoots well, he does melee better. He does melee better than ranged, so he's not THE ranged beast, especially when his melee is not broken ;)

[Neutralyze]

he shoots on his way in then charges when the chance comes up. it might even be enough to keep heavier targets or light beasts away.

[Necra-Chi]

He doesn't do melee better. He doesn't get free attacks with his tail, he has to buy them. His better melee ability is well appreciated, however. It makes him a versatile beast, despite not being able to slam.

The seraphs MAT/RAT were always pretty good already. There isn't a lot of RAT 6 on warjacks or warbeasts, and it has MAT 6 now. And best of all there's no more screening.

[alchahest]

The Seraph is a hell of a beast now. I'd take them at 8 points.

[Soulblighter]

He doesn't do melee better. He doesn't get free attacks with his tail, he has to buy them. His better melee ability is well appreciated, however. It makes him a versatile beast, despite not being able to slam.

He may not get melee attacks for free, but he has higher MAT than RAT, higher POW on his melee, and crit poison with his melee. Im inclined to agree the Seraph does melee better than shooting now. The Seraph is a weird hybrid melee/shooter now.

[Necra-Chi]

If he does then one shoudln't be so concerned about it being engaged. I know I'm not.

When I get a seraph engaged I look at the situation. If I need his gun I get something else to come over and free it with melee or slipstream. When I don't need his gun or need him to be somewhere else I just hack the enemy down with its tail.

I'll add however that the melee stats would hav eto be alot better to convince me taht its more melee than shooting now. That's because shooting already has such an advantage over melee. Why go to the enemy when you can kill it from 10" away?

[Soulblighter]

I'll add however that the melee stats would hav eto be alot better to convince me taht its more melee than shooting now. That's because shooting already has such an advantage over melee. Why go to the enemy when you can kill it from 10" away?

Well you can always use leash to charge the seraph into melee to kill something then move it back to its original spot. It does more damage in melee so I can see that being advantageous over shooting. But then why not just use an Angelius I suppose.

[Jaster]

I've slowly stopped using the Seraph like a gun boat, and more like a destoyer to be honest, it chugs along and fires some warning shots at the enemy as I close and pulls some others via slipstream, then I get into melee and Boost hit and Damage for pretty consistant 4D6 + 14 hits, I've seen'em rip dire trolls up pretty bad like that (Yes it needs an assist to finish off the troll, but that's not too hard).

[Taegmar]

So then going back to my original thoughts then, he needs to get either +1 RAT to bring him up to a gunboat heavy with a nice tail attack or a bite attack to bring him up to a melee heavy with a nice ranged capability to hand.

I suppose I was being greedy wanting both really.

[JaggedToothGrin]

i still think the seraph should be what it was in the previous update, trade the tail for gunfighter. maybe change the ranged attack to typeless, and add critical poision to it. 8 points and 3 fury would be quite fine then, yes indeed.

[Thunder_God]

I'd be fine with switching the MAT and RAT around.

[Loveless]

i still think the seraph should be what it was in the previous update, trade the tail for gunfighter. maybe change the ranged attack to typeless, and add critical poision to it. 8 points and 3 fury would be quite fine then, yes indeed.

Having read several of your suggestions for Legion, I'm quite certain that you are a madman :p

Take your nerfing prowess over to the Circle forums - they need it more than we do :p

[Aedric]

It should be 4 points and shoot laser beams. That's balanced right? :)

[Achiles]

Maybe give it a force ability like Disengage it can move up to 2" and cannot be targeted by free strikes during that movement to move out of melee range without loosing aim bonus to use it shooty agian ?

Or you could have another Seraph caste Slipstream and disengage him then have the engaged Seraph activate and Slipstream the other Seraph back to safety. At that point whatever is left of what was engaging your Seraph after getting blasted by two Seraphs at close range shouldn't be much of a threat.

Also yes the Seraph is expensive at 8pts, when compared to heavy Warjacks. However when the Seraph is compared to other heavy Warbeasts only the Shadowhorn Satyr, the cheapest heavy in the game, is cheaper. The Seraph is a much better Warbeast than a Shadowhorn Satyr. At 7pts he would be underpriced and 6pts is just ludicrous.

[alchahest]

The seraph is fantastic as is. I really enjoy the model now, and have considered picking up a third for some more out-there list ideas.

[Achiles]

I'd be fine with switching the MAT and RAT around.

That actually sounds like a completely logical solution that I am surprised they haven't yet gone with.