Can the Old Witch be competetive?

[Trolldrake]

I am fairly new to Khador and have tried most of our casters and am now looking to try the Old Witch. I am not super versed in Khador synergies but i am wondering how competetive she can be and what goes well in a list for her. I really like the spell Unseen Path and her yo-yo strategies she can use with it. I am looking specifically to make assassination type lists with her possibly using that spell. Any advice on strategies that are common to her and what models i should put in lists using her? Any feedback would be appreciated.

[Aries37]

What do you mean by competitive? If you mean winning a local tourney against casual players then yes she can do just fine.

If you mean going to a tournament against skilled players then no, Khador as a whole have no chance. All it takes is to get matched up against a top tier caster with a top tier list and there is not much you can do but hope your opponent screws up majorly. Khador were the only faction in mk2 to really get 'balanced' in every department...

[Shadow37]

What do you mean by competitive? If you mean winning a local tourney against casual players then yes she can do just fine.

If you mean going to a tournament against skilled players then no, Khador as a whole have no chance. All it takes is to get matched up against a top tier caster with a top tier list and there is not much you can do but hope your opponent screws up majorly. Khador were the only faction in mk2 to really get 'balanced' in every department...

I have to wonder...what information are you basing this opinion on? To say Khador "as a whole have no chance" is a bit disconcerting. Especially since Mk II is hardly out of the gate.

I have no intention to argue point for point, but to talk in absolutes tends to make threads not productive. The OP is a new player looking for advice. Let's keep the thread positive and constructive.

[General Nemo]

When it comes to the competitiveness of Khador on a grand scale, you can rest assured Aries37 will tell you that we cannot win.

He is wrong. The Old witch is playable, but I lack the experience to say she can win top level tournaments on her own.

[tedwin183]

pVlad is still a mega beatstick stick caster that can have a top tier list built around him. pButcher is going to get a good amount of love now that he's a better, Khador-version of Darius minus the bodging. eSorscha and her Winterguard lists will be finalists in big tournaments, no doubt and a wild card might be Karchev. I've seen some MM lists built around him that are...pretty nasty.

Rest assured, we are competitive. Old Witch might be good in a more casual game, but something like adepticon this year or any of the big, national PP tournaments...you're going to see very, VERY few Old Witch lists. Really, the bread and butter of Khador has always been Sorscha and Vlad and will most likely continue to be that way.

[Jyggdrasil]

I wonder if we will see pButch and jacks in the top tiers. I think Karchev's large base will continue to exclude him, but pButch might have the mojo.

[mongre36]

To be fair Aries37 did qualify his statement. He is probably right, Old Witch is pretty much unchanged from her original FT incarnation. For example she has the dubious honor of having the lowest combined DEF/ARM in Khador. This is important because it makes her extremely vulnerable to the Mage Hunter assassination which will undoubtedly figure prominently in any highly competitive environment.

[mongre36]

...Really, the bread and butter of Khador has always been Sorscha and Vlad and will most likely continue to be that way...

Lets consider that statement for a second. Basically what you are saying is that Khador is no better off than it was in MK1, probably worse since it lost one Vlad and we are all pretty much agreeing, Old Witch. That is far more damning a comment than what Aries37 is saying and it echoes my own concerns about Khador.

If the end result of the MK2 release for Khador is that it is the Sorcha/Vlad faction then we failed in providing the right kind of feedback.

[Avecrien]

I'm not the prediction type, but I'd risk it on pButcher making a strong showing in 2010. I like Vlad for more than his well known awesomeness. The fact that he fights in magic plate instead of typical caster armor makes my MoW steamsuit all the more moist...but Butcher is prying me out of the dark prince's hands so deftly I know a smarter player has already figured out how to turn him into a win-streaking terror.

I don't think the Old Witch will win any major competitions. I do think it's possible she'll have some surprise wins. Her remaining problem is that her kamikaze yo-yo assassination attempts arent going to be strong enough to cut down enough competitive enemy casters. Her ranged perks to her battlegroup coupled with the new jack we're getting might have her seen a little bit more, but I doubt it'll raise heads, let alone feathers.

I am disappointed with a lot in Mk2, but the Motherland does not accept defeat. If we can field broken and outdated jacks to gain victory, we can march out with what we've been cut down to and hold that line.

[Aries37]

Mongre36 has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I don't want to sound negative but the real situation is grim. I've already resigned myself to playing mk2 casually only. The game is great fun so I don't really mind, but I'd rather not perpetuate something I feel is a lie to prospective new players. If they ask if something is competitive I'll say no if that's the truth. So that you don't think I'm drawing things out of the air I'll go ahead and pose a very likely tournament situation:

You're drawn up against a Harby player (there are going to be more mk2 Harby's than eVlad in mk1 so good luck avoiding them). You have two lists, pButcher and Old Witch.

If you pick the Old Witch what is your gameplan? OW has 4 upkeep spells, 2 of them (murder of crows and Iron flesh) work only on your opponent's turn. Harby purifies for 3 focus every turn, so all your upkeeps are gone. She has 10 focus so her control area covers the vast majority of the table and you can't avoid it. She arcs rebuke onto your infantry unit (at 10 + 2d6 to hit), making it useless. OW's only contribution to the game then is going to be her feat (Harby's feat is almost as good), giving 1 unit pathfinder, allocating focus to jacks and the yoyo scrapjack. Have you ever tried yoyo scrapjack? It's fun but it's not going to win you games on it's own. You can't shoot harby's jacks because of the choir, your jacks can't hit their jacks first in melee because of crusader's call and even if you miraculously manage it the jack will just enliven away.

So you pick pButcher instead. Well iron flesh is useless thanks to purification. Obliteration is useless due to being a bad 4 FOC spell on a 6 FOC caster. That leaves your entire toolbox for this game as full throttle, fury and his feat. So fury is melee attacks only, and how are you going to make it into melee? Crusader's call means both her jacks and infantry hit you first. Rebuke means your infantry can't charge, run or receive an order. That means no bob & weave, no shield wall, no assault and battery. Her jacks hit your jacks first and battle hymn/ancilliary attack/guaranteed enough focus to allocate/self focus- generating Avatar means they scrap you in one turn.

Still think either caster has a chance in a real tournament?

[Tevesh]

After a few games outside of the Battle Box, Sorscha lost her appeal. So I think it's all up to Vlad now.

I played a game against Harby as OW. It wasn't pretty, but I was slowly picking her army apart. I think this was mostly due to terrain placement, as my Kayazy's ran through the forests under Weald Secrets. Once they got into the Harbys' CTRL things went south, because I wouldn't run or charge at her due to the stupid Order Cancel spell.

[hoya4life3381]

At what pts are these mythical tournaments of MKII be at? Are we assuming 50 pts? 50 vs. 35 is a significant difference.

[Duckboy]

I was too late in the MK2 field testing phase, so no feedback from me. It does seem like Khador has been dulled a lot.

[General Nemo]

Old Witch and Butcher1 are bad matchups for Harby. Heck, most of Khador is a bad matchup for Harby, but I think it's overly critical of you to dismiss the entire faction as unworthy of tournament play.

But we've had this argument over and over again, and every time it ends with people telling Aries to stop whining.

ANYWAY, about the Old Witch, it really depends on the meta. If you have a troop heavy enemy meta, then you should be golden, but she relies a lot on her army's natural ability to bring down heavy targets, so lists high in the heavy warjack count (I assume) would give her serious problems.

[tedwin183]

1.) You still have to roll dice. As long as that holds true, anything can happen.
2.) As Mongre said in regards to condemning us to only Sorscha and Vlad and thus claiming that our feedback was ineffective, what does that say about Harby lists? So the feedback they got about Harbinger was all heard yet ours wasn't? Be realistic here...
3.) It's as simple as asking yourself a question. If you were going to a competitive tournament, would you bring anything but a vlad/sorscha/butcher list? Compound that with a hypothetical wager. Would you be willing to bet against vlad/sorscha being the predominant casters showing up in competitive tournament lists? I know I sure wouldn't. (I don't want to hear the good old: "I wouldn't go to a competitive tournament" stuff. Let's just suppose you are going to one.)
4.) There's no such thing as a win-button army list in this game. This game doesn't have the equivalent of nob bikerz or TH/SS terminators. If Harbinger is bothering you, learn to play eEiryss better, or Orin, or A&H.

Sorry, I don't buy that Khador is worthless in tournaments. It's true, Menoth got better, a lot better, but I don't think any of the factions are unbalanced compared to anyone else. It's far too early in mkii to say, with certainty, that we're screwed.

It could be a lot worse. You could be funneling your money into a company that charges $18 for a can of black spray paint...

[mongre36]

Don't get me wrong in my opinion Privateer has the best game of its type going and one of the best things to happen in 2006 was that I met the Privateer folks at the old GenCon SoCal and played a demo, before I painted the models from that other game. I am a press ganger after all.

I do not think though that anyone here is saying Khador is worthless in tournaments. If you for example give eSorcha even a small opening she can put almost any warcaster down. She also has at her disposal the best spells in the faction. At the same time I have concerns the nonVlad 1 / Sorcha 2 casters.

[General Nemo]

I maintain with little evidence to back me up that Butcher2 is perfectly competitive :P

[tedwin183]

I agree completely. I too am concerned with the competitiveness of our other casters outside of pVlad and eSorscha. However, I think both of them are still competitive to the level of other faction's top tier casters. In other words, pVlad and eSorscha are still our top tier casters. I am holding out hope that someone comes up with a pButcher Full Throttle list that starts to dominate, but for now I bet a lot of pVlad and eSorscha will be played in tournaments. It's sad, but then again, you don't see anything different from any of the other factions. You're still going to see a lot of Haley Cygnar lists, a lot of pGoreshade lists and Skarre Bombs, you're going to see Harbinger lists, and of course, the rise of the mage hunter assassin lists...which are just annoying and vaguely reminiscent of "that other game's" pointy-eared counterparts back when "that other game" was in 4th edition...

It's funny this has come up, as I am about a month out from a 35pt club tournament at my LGS. I was originally going to run an eIrusk/Winterguard list, but I am heavily leaning towards a pVlad brick list. Either that or just run my semi-competitive pButcher list that no one at my club has been able to deal with yet...not even eHaley and her long gunners of doom.

I dunno, I think the whole game got balanced to the point that there's going to be ebbs and flows of what comes into style and what falls out of style. Who knows? That Mage Hunter Assassin list could be the Harbinger's doom, yet somehow maybe Khador or Cryx gets a popular list together that can beat the Mage Hunter lists. It's a system of give and take, which is part of the reason I love this game so much better than any of the other popular games out there.

[Trolldrake]

to clarify my original post, i meant competetive in can she win a decent amount of games in friendly play against good players, not win tournaments. i play mostly for fun and want to give her a whirl and maybe get a few assassinations. i think for jacks id probably just run scrappy and a destroyer, maybe a Decimator as well when hes out. other than that just wanted to run troops and solos with maybe Gorman to help lower heavy jacks armor. So as far as assassinations lists with her, lookin for specific models named that work. Would like to run doom reaversa nd Fenris with her, are they viable with her? any feedback on them and other models that may work is appreciated and thanks for all the replies thus far..

[Tevesh]

For friendly games, the Old Witch is most definitely a competitive caster. In fact, I would say all Khadoran casters in friendly games are competitive; with exceptions of Vlad, Sorscha and Zerkova. Mostly because people will complain you're being cheesy, and then it's not a friendly game. :)

[mongre36]

Oh Butcher 1 can do well, I placed in a tourney myself with him and he is one of my favorites in Mk2 . Getting an extra die of damage is never a bad thing though a not insignificant part of his effectiveness comes from Iron Flesh and Winterguard.

They will of course work fine with OW as well with Joe.

[Aries37]

to clarify my original post, i meant competetive in can she win a decent amount of games in friendly play against good players, not win tournaments. i play mostly for fun and want to give her a whirl and maybe get a few assassinations. i think for jacks id probably just run scrappy and a destroyer, maybe a Decimator as well when hes out. other than that just wanted to run troops and solos with maybe Gorman to help lower heavy jacks armor. So as far as assassinations lists with her, lookin for specific models named that work. Would like to run doom reaversa nd Fenris with her, are they viable with her? any feedback on them and other models that may work is appreciated and thanks for all the replies thus far..
Cool, Old Witch, Destroyer and gorman? Sounds like my 35 :

Zevanna Agha, the Old Witch of Khador -3
Scrapjack
Destroyer 9
War dog 1
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (Cylena and 9 Grunts) 10
Great Bears of Gallowswood 5
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt 4
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist 2
Manhunter 2
Manhunter 2
Yuri the Axe 3

Idea is to abuse forests. Treewalker (manhunters and yuri), hunter (wardog and nyss), pathfinder (almost everything) and Augury (destroyer/scrappy) give you a massive advantage assuming you can find a large piece of forest to fight around.

Gorman is there for rust so you can wreck even the heavier warjacks in one bear charge. Aiyana plays several roles: magic weapons on nyss or destroyer to counter hymn of passage/ harm on units so they take more damage from murder of crows and yoyo-scrapjack/ stack harm with rust on a warjack. Ideally I'd squeeze a Koldun Lord in there...

[whats82]

How is Zerkova cheesy ? she's currently the worst caster in Khador, and I have tried many games with her to no avail.

[Tevesh]

How is Zerkova cheesy ? she's currently the worst caster in Khador, and I have tried many games with her to no avail.

Ever play Magic? If you have, you may have at one point played a "Counterspell Deck" which seems to be exactly like Zerkova. The idea of a Counterspell Deck is to negate all of your opponents plays, then eventually drop a threat onto the board that will eventually kill them while you protect this threat by using the same strategy of negating your opponent's attempts at removing the threat.

Zerkova is the same. Construction of her armies encourages a negation strategy, that may or may not be good, is reall annoying. It's similar facing the Cygnarian Mark I gunline where the Long Gunners Double Tap at 21" at POW 20 behind Precursors. Good or bad is up for the dispute, but your opponent will not be amused at the end of the day.

Essentially, the strategy is to ignore your opponent by disallowing all their options. In effect, it's almost like playing with yourself. Cue onanism jokes now, as I think the synonym is probably censored by the board.

[Marth]

I'd rather say playing Zerkova is like dealing with... let's say, a showgirl. You can look, but attempts to touch are thwarted till the bouncer comes. ;)

[General Nemo]

The Bouncer being Beast 09
You do not get a refund for your cover charge.

[JJMJester]

Unless you count "Axe to face" as a refund :cool:

[PWC]

Ever play Magic? If you have, you may have at one point played a "Counterspell Deck" which seems to be exactly like Zerkova. The idea of a Counterspell Deck is to negate all of your opponents plays, then eventually drop a threat onto the board that will eventually kill them while you protect this threat by using the same strategy of negating your opponent's attempts at removing the threat.

Zerkova is the same. Construction of her armies encourages a negation strategy, that may or may not be good, is reall annoying. It's similar facing the Cygnarian Mark I gunline where the Long Gunners Double Tap at 21" at POW 20 behind Precursors. Good or bad is up for the dispute, but your opponent will not be amused at the end of the day.

Essentially, the strategy is to ignore your opponent by disallowing all their options. In effect, it's almost like playing with yourself. Cue onanism jokes now, as I think the synonym is probably censored by the board.

"I'm going to use Isochron Scepter on this Counterspell, okay."
"I cast shatter on it"
"Durp Force of Will"

[General Nemo]

Beast 09: It's payback time, and you's about to pay a deductible!

PWC: The correct play is Orim's Chant on the scepter. :P

[mongre36]

Ever play Magic? If you have, you may have at one point played a "Counterspell Deck"..Zerkova is the same.

Yes I have played magic and no your assertion is not correct. In no way does she counter spell her opponents.

Zerkova has 3 abilities that affect magic. Banishing ward prevents targeting only allowing workarounds for any opponent let along those that bring Eyriss 2 or a purify like spell. Then there is the -3RNG and D6 damage that only comes in with direct hits. Her feat stops initial ranged attacks, not spells.

I have tried to build and play Zerkova lists around that idea. Her problem is that while she can deny some things it is not enough and she gives up a lot of offensive capability for pretty minor denial while being the easiest to hit of all Khador warcasters save Karchev and Butcher 2 while lacking their high base ARM.

Irusk 1 is just as good as she is at Denial. He has Iron Flesh which puts Winterguard at DEF17 and Kayazy at DEF19, his feat gives 4+ tough and no KD, on feat turn he can help the AK hit and not have to be dangerously exposed to do it, he slows down models with Inhospitable ground, and still has damage buffs and accuracy buffs from his feat. This is for a warcaster that is only average in Khadoran terms.

The top Khador warcasters all have the same things in common. They increase damage output and/or accuracy while providing moderate defensive capabilities. Zerkova can increase accuracy but only with a spell that is designed to go through the arcnode that does not exist in Khador.

Her defensive spell is limited to a single type of attack, and only if it targets affected model. Iron Flesh is just better covering more things. She is also the weakest Khador warcaster in melee. All the top Khador warcasters are solid in that department too.

On the topic of Butcher 1, I have played him the most and the only thing I think that is keeping him from being right at the top is no way to speed himself or his army up. All he is missing is boundless charge and he would be perfect.

[PWC]

Well if you understand magic, then think Privileged Position and Demystify. Sure they can't hit your stuff, and they can't make their stuff better, but then neither can you.
And thats the play style. Zerkova is an anomaly in this faction and you can't really say she is the worst caster in this faction because of that anomaly.

Yes, other casters have different spells, better stats. But if that were it, why would any one play anything other than Vlad? Yes, spell lists are different, and that spells do different things at different focus costs. Yes, some casters have these spells and others don't.

I'm trying to grasp what seems to be wrong, but I can't. To me it feels like you don't like Zerkova because she can't run in and beat stuff up or take a hit. That doesn't necessarily make her bad. You gotta think cat and mouse instead of cat and dog.

[phantem2]

I think Zerkova is just unlike any other Khadoran warcaster, every other warcaster we have in there own way beats face in melee. Even the Old Witch mixes it up to cull souls and Irusk can swing that sword fairly well when pressed to do so.

I personally am still trying to nail down Zerkova's play style but I don't think shes a bad caster, just vastly different from other Khador warcaster play styles.

As for the original purpose of this thread, based on my very limited experience with the Old Witch, I think it depends on terrain. I think Khador has some of the best terrain midigation abilities across the faction and she personifies this.

For this reason I don't think shes quite super tournament worthy in the same way Vlad or Sorcha might be, because terrain is a variable from battle to battle.

[mongre36]

I will play some more games with Zerkova, my list is fully painted. PWC go play her for a bit, come back and let me know how it goes.

[Malkav13]

For some more Zerkova fun, be sure to check out the new thread (and ruling) about how you can move with Watcher and NOT take your attack, to allow watcher to not expire.
As to the Old Witch, I feel that she can still be competitive. She has a decent feat (not as good as the MKI version, but that's how it goes). With the War Dog and Iron flesh she can get up to 20 defense. She can allow either herself or scrapjack to become a decent melee combatant (even better if she is going against squishy infantry).
She isn't blatantly powerful like some of our casters, but I feel that she can bring some good power to the table, especially in scenario play.

[marskitten]

I'd say all our casters are pretty competitive except Zerkova (as a huge Zerkova fanatic). Depends on format though. OW probably won't be a big force in hardcore tourneys because she cannot crack hard armor herself, has no offensive buffs and attrition usually runs to time and a loss.

I would say that OW is one of the best defensive casters in the game if not the best. IF, WS and MoC provide three levels of defensive power. Her feat can stop most troopers from advancing forward, provide protection against both melee, shooters and MoC stops LoS and makes it a gamble to advance across. WS makes terrain a trivial issue and her augury makes behemoth or at least a destroyer mandatory.

She may come out better once the WG rifle corps come out, but I enjoy playing her with a unit of Nyss hunters and Kayazy assassins. But I really wish she was either an 8 focus caster or gallows was a point cheaper OR she was given telekinesis or that lovely slam spell.

[Pickles]

1.) You still have to roll dice. As long as that holds true, anything can happen..


That is how casinos make money.