Confirmation at last!

[KnightoNi1894]

The new lights are plastic!



Cygnar Firefly Light Warjack (1 Plastic Model) MSRP $18.99 PIP 31070
Crackling with galvanic energy and unleashing blasts of lethal bolts of electricity to arc through the enemy, the Firefly is among the most advanced warjacks stalking the battlefields of western Immoren today. Its devastating electrical weaponry can fry its enemies to a crisp, leaving the air heavy with the scent of ozone. In addition to its actual weaponry, the Firefly incorporates an advanced mechanikally augmented conducting element into that allows stormsmiths to integrate the ?jack in their stormcalling.
A player may field any number of Firefly light warjacks in a Cygnar army.

Cryx Ripjaw Bonejacks (2 Plastic Models) MSRP $19.99 PIP 34070
The Ripjaw?s pincer-like jaws are used to hold its victims in place while its bone saw cuts them into mangled and unidentifiable bits. Necrotechs take particular delight in using the Ripsaw, as its victims are left in pieces easily utilized in their gory fabrications. In spite of its lethal armaments, the Ripjaw?s most dangerous weapon is its arc node. Quick and agile like its brethren, the Ripjaw ultimately serves to carry its masters? dark will to the enemies of Cryx. This box contains parts necessary to assemble two Ripjaw bonejack plastic models. A player may field any number of Ripjaw bonejacks in a Cryx army.

Protectorate Vigilant Light Warjack (1 Plastic Model) MSRP $18.99 PIP 32068
The Vigilant?s twin fist-mounted shields make it an incredibly durable light warjack. The tremendous area
covered by its towering shields provides nearly unassailable shelter from even the most devastating of enemy
artillery fire. Warcasters favor the Vigilant for its great utility, not only is it like a small, mobile battlement
but since it carries no weapons its hands are free to hurl enemy combatants about like ragdolls. The ?jack?s
unsophisticated weaponry and cortex make it easy and inexpensive to manufacture, ensuring its place among
the Menite crusaders for years to come. A player may field any number of Vigilant light warjacks in a Protectorate of Menoth army.

Knight

[jack frost]

where is our plastic man o war?!?!


damnit privateer, why do you forsake your most loyal sons!!!!!

[ricefrisbeetreats]

All-right. I can finally give up all that pinning garbage, right? I HATE IT!

[Ivellis]

It's nice that they're plastic, but I really wish they would've been multi-'jack sets, it was a perfect opportunity. The metal lights look, well... bad in comparison to the plastics and it seems each faction only gets one.

[Devilsquid]

Bonesaw's got you for Three Minutes!


I'm really liking this plastic jack stuff. But, of course, Mercs will be the last ones to get a plastic jack.

That's ok. We're used to it.

[Aries37]

Twin shields on the vigilant? So speed 5, DEF 13, ARM 20?? Two open fists and a ability that grants free auto-hitting double handed throws with +2" throw distance.. could be awesome

Firefly looks like it can arc stormsmith calls and work with triangulation. As if stormsmiths weren't already the best 1 point solos in the game!

Cryx arcnode seems meh. It won't sell unless it's overpowered and that's the sad truth.

Nothing for Khador..but I'll be happy if the widowmaker marksman has hunter's mark and if the rifle corps are not just blighted nyss archers with military rifles and no UA.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

Better dust off my Stormsmiths. Firefly's a-comin' and it's looking scary!

[Karyle]

I'm a teensy bit disappointed at the prices, though... a 3-heavy (option) kit is only marginally more expensive than a single light blister, when you think about it, and it's bigger with a lot more pieces left over for people who love conversions.

Oh well. I'll buy 2 Fireflys, anyway. :P

[megatron0]

This makes me chuckle at all the people who said that they were definitly metal and gave a whole heap of examples why xD
Fantastic bring on the plastic!

[Demeritus]

I still prefer metal myself but the plastic thus far hasn't disappointed. The Vigilant definitely sounds interesting, I look forward to seeing the rules.

[Alikar]

Hmm makes sense. I suspect soon everything will be plastic except solos and warcasters.

[Lexington]

Huh. This is great to hear, but like others, I'm scratching my head as to why these aren't multi-jack kits. Here's hoping that they are, and it's just not been revealed yet.

[pipeline]

All-right. I can finally give up all that pinning garbage, right? I HATE IT!


It's probably not a bad idea to pin the plastics. Especially if the plastic glue doesnt work on them. It will be way easier to pin them than metal.

[tonyzahn]

It's probably not a bad idea to pin the plastics. Especially if the plastic glue doesnt work on them. It will be way easier to pin them than metal.
You don't use plastic glue, just plain-old super glue.

And the PP plastics I've put together have had connections points that fit so tightly you hardly even need glue at all. Pinning really isn't necessary.

[megatron0]

You don't use plastic glue, just plain-old super glue.

And the PP plastics I've put together have had connections points that fit so tightly you hardly even need glue at all. Pinning really isn't necessary.

So true, i could almost assemble my Ret manticore without superglue it would stand and everything!

[Loveless]

Wait wait wait.

Menoth finally gets the 2-shield 'jack I've been wanting for forever?

Sweet. Thank you, Privateer. :D

[AxeHappy!!]

Interesting bit there about the synergy with the Stormsmiths with the Firefly....

Plastic. I like plastic it's sooooo pliable compared to the metal that PP uses. This is going to make converting so much easier. So when are we going to get Plastics for everything.

[aterdaeus]

When our store ordered the new Basher kit, it was listed as plastic too. And it wasn't. I'll get excited when I see it.

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

So they're synergy light jacks? Firefly with Stormsmiths, Ripjaw with Necrotechs, Vigilant with...warcasters?

[whitekong]

I can't believe they actually have a higher price point than the metal light jacks. Thank god for plastic....

[Charwood]

I'm actually more interested in the Vigilant's description than the materials confirmation. A light with two shields? I'm eager to see what this little guy looks like!

- Charwood

[brotherscott]

So they're synergy light jacks? Firefly with Stormsmiths, Ripjaw with Necrotechs, Vigilant with...warcasters?

Sure, Vigilant with warcasters- run a Vigilant and a Devout to keep the 'casters safe...

Pretty happy to see this. Next year will be spendy...

[Karyle]

I really hope that the Stormsmiths will be able to call lightning into the Firefly and then have it immediately shoot Chain Lightning or something.

That would be so awesome.

[Cloud-Gatherer]

I'm a teensy bit disappointed at the prices, though... a 3-heavy (option) kit is only marginally more expensive than a single light blister, when you think about it, and it's bigger with a lot more pieces left over for people who love conversions.

Oh well. I'll buy 2 Fireflys, anyway. :P
What? The heavy kits are $35. These are $19-20. That's not "marginal." That's almost twice as much.


I can't believe they actually have a higher price point than the metal light jacks. Thank god for plastic....
The Firefly is the same size as Thorn, and fully $10 cheaper. It is $2 more expensive than a tiny old Lancer, over which it towers. I don't know what you're complaining about.

[Loveless]

The Firefly is the same size as Thorn, and fully $10 cheaper. It is $2 more expensive than a tiny old Lancer, over which it towers. I don't know what you're complaining about.

This.

You should be comparing them to the character Lights, as that's what they're emulating.

Except in Cryx's case - but the Ripjaw is massive compared to a Deathripper, so the increase there is warranted as well.

[CT GAMER]

I can't believe they actually have a higher price point than the metal light jacks. Thank god for plastic....

Do we need to have this conversation again?

Plastic stabilizes price long term, it doesn't suddenly drop the price.

The price of metal rises unexpectedly and sometimes drastically on a regular basis resulting in companies having to adjust prices on products frequently to cover these unexpected and drastic rises.

Plastic(petroleum) is a more stable costing medium to buy/work with and thus current prices can be adhered to far longer in general.

PP is investing in being able to maintain a decent price point long term rather then have to erratically and drastically raise prices on a regular basis at the whim of the metals market.

Also on a related note the cost of plastic molds and related manufacturing costs are many times higher then metal molds, so it is rather unreasonable for a consumer to expect a product to go down in price when switched from metal to plastic, because the company had to lay out a massive chunk of change to make the switch and get new plastic molds, etc. ,etc.

In the long run plastic models means less money spent by the consumer because the price of said products will be steadier then if they stayed or were done in metal....

[Karyle]

What? The heavy kits are $35. These are $19-20. That's not "marginal." That's almost twice as much.


The Firefly is the same size as Thorn, and fully $10 cheaper. It is $2 more expensive than a tiny old Lancer, over which it towers. I don't know what you're complaining about.


Ah, you're right. I was thinking the heavies were $30. $10 difference seemed too little.

Good comparison with the character lights.

[Redphantasm]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/Linward/BonesawMcGrawSavage53.jpg


Bonesaw's got you for Three Minutes!

[Redphantasm]

Do we need to have this conversation again?

Plastic stabilizes price long term, it doesn't suddenly drop the price.



But will it cure cancer? I heard plastic miniatures do that.

[Valander]

Awesome.

I'd also like to take a moment to be a Devilsquid and point out that in the old forum, several folks were convinced these could not possibly be plastic, and offer each of them a plate of crow. ;)

I am a little bummed that the kits as described above don't appear to be multijack kits. I think this really is a missed opportunity to both capitalize on the new jacks and update the look of old jacks to match the new "vision of warjacks" PP has said they were going for. In particular, the bonechicken should really have been a kit, since the only difference between a Boneripper, Defiler, and Ripjaw are the head, and a minor switch on the cowling and head makes a Nightwretch. With some of the Mk II changes, I would expect a lot more purchases of Defilers as well.

[CT GAMER]

But will it cure cancer? I heard plastic miniatures do that.

The kind of cancer that most gamers have is called "DOOM111 cancer" and is sadly largely incurable, even when treated with massive doses of common sense...

[Redphantasm]

The kind of cancer that most gamers have is called "DOOM111 cancer" and is sadly largely incurable, even when treated with massive doses of common sense...

I thought common sense cured scurvy, not DOOM111 cancer?

[CT GAMER]

I am a little bummed that the kits as described above don't appear to be multijack kits. I think this really is a missed opportunity

Maybe they actually are?

It sounds like no since the descriptions we have seen have not mentioned it, but maybe it was an accidental omission when the description was sent out?

I'm keeping my fingers crossed on this aspect...

[CT GAMER]

I thought common sense cured scurvy, not DOOM111 cancer?


That would explain my lifelong battle with scurvy...;)

[Devilsquid]

I'd also like to take a moment to be a Devilsquid and point out that in the old forum, several folks were convinced these could not possibly be plastic, and offer each of them a plate of crow. ;)


My legend lives on!




I would be terribly surprised if the light kits were not a multi kit in plastic. Charger, Lancer, Firefly. My main thought is because they're looking to do less ordering numbers for the stores.

Unless it wasn't financially prudent to do so. Might be the case.

[Valander]

Maybe they actually are?

It sounds like no since the descriptions we have seen have not mentioned it, but maybe it was an accidental omission when the description was sent out?

I'm keeping my fingers crossed on this aspect...

Me too. Like I said, though, the description above doesn't seem to indicate it. That could, of course, be an incomplete description, and I, too, will keep my fingers crossed!


My legend lives on!

I would be terribly surprised if the light kits were not a multi kit in plastic. Charger, Lancer, Firefly. My main thought is because they're looking to do less ordering numbers for the stores.

Unless it wasn't financially prudent to do so. Might be the case.

That is possible that they didn't want to confuse it too much for retailers, but I think most retailers would have been fairly happy to have fewer SKUs to keep track of.

The only reason I can see that it wouldn't make sense to multi-kit these is if they had to create completely different molds for each variant. I'm sure a single mold for all jacks on the same chassis would be far more economical, meaning all parts would be cast in one shot.

But, I am now talking out of my rear, since I don't work at PP and have no idea what the reasoning for any of their packaging decisions may be. ;)

[The Beast of Caer Banogh]

Oh man oh man oh man!
I'm EXCITED.

Also, mildly miffed that the Ret light jacks were metal. I didn't really see the purpose of that and they're a massive PITA to put together and keep together unless you pin or green stuff them.

Here's to hoping they're multi-variant kits.

[purgatorial]

So i guess the vigilant ended up being a lot like the art that was floating around? http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9500/itsnotreawaityesitisahy.jpg

[Lexington]

So i guess the vigilant ended up being a lot like the art that was floating around?
Interesting. Where'd that come from?

[Loveless]

It popped up back on the old forums when the Protectorate community was playing "Design-a-Jack".

The Vigilant sounds to be Arc Node free, however.

[HandsomeDan]

Plastic lights were confirmed on Sunday (http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=3237), but its nice to have the info about what the jacks do.

[Snake Eyes]

So they're synergy light jacks? Firefly with Stormsmiths, Ripjaw with Necrotechs, Vigilant with...warcasters?See how the Protectorate is the "synergy" faction. Uh huh. :rolleyes:

Regardless of that incorrect moniker that sometimes gets tossed around, I am starting to see the Protectorate Mk. II theme. To use fantasy class archetypes - we're the "Paladins" faction, versus the Cygnar "Ranger", Khador "Barbarian/Knight", and Cryxian "Sorcerer". (Please excuse my ignorance of any proper, or up to date, fantasy class names.)

We've got the ARM to tank the hits, avoid the damage, deny our opponent tactics, and heal when necessary. The Templar, Vigilant, Choir, Vassals, Mechaniks, and Covenant all feed into this theme.

I would definitely not say we're the "synergy" faction more than any other faction. I would argue that we never really were.

I love me some Protectorate but in hindsight I can't believe I'm playing the "cleric/paladin" faction. That's basically my last choice of class type in fantasy games. :)

[Lee T]

Cryx arcnode seems meh. It won't sell unless it's overpowered and that's the sad truth.

Indeed... if only it had been a "Build your 'node" kit.

[notsoevil]

The Vigilant sounds very interesting, but do we really need another caster bodyguard light jack?

Give me something else that shoots fire plskthx.

[FalseAngel]

I have one thing to say:

LOL Dual Wield Shields

That is all.

[Hrothgar]

In addition to its actual weaponry, the Firefly incorporates an advanced mechanikally augmented conducting element into that allows stormsmiths to integrate the ?jack in their stormcalling.

If I were guessing, I'd say that the Firefly can be used as a point when using Surge or Triangulation -- since it's pretty hard to keep stormsmiths alive long enough to pull those off. Having a jack that can run out front and then have 3 Stormsmiths use it as a contact point for the harder-to-achieve stormcalls would be awesome.

[CMikeHardy]

I too was a bit disappointed top read that these aren't multi-jack offerings. The fireflies will make my Chargers and Lancers seem like kid's toys on the table.
But, that doesn't mean I don't by a bunch of Fireflies and then hit the Online store for Charger and Lancer bitz to convert away. It may be my only option.

[phantem2]

I suspect, and this is purely speculation, that maybe the cost of making a kit for light jacks might make them prohibitively expensive since they would have to increase the cost for all the extra parts and people already note the current cost.

In any case, who needs light jacks anyway? Khador has the right of it.

[Golgothas]

The Firefly pleases me by its description. I shall buy one.

Now, I await the Stormsmith Weapon Attachment and the inevitable...

QUADRANGULATION!

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

I love me some Protectorate but in hindsight I can't believe I'm playing the "cleric/paladin" faction. That's basically my last choice of class type in fantasy games. :)

Take it on the chin and crank up the chant for the glory of the Lawgiver, choirboy :D

[Golgothas]

In the future, I move that Stormsmiths begin experimenting with tesseract powered energy dispersal.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Tesseract.gif

[Turbulence]

Man!!! Plastic Lights now? I knew Heavies were heading this way but Lights now as well? And they are more expensive than the metal ones. Where oh where is my full metal fantasy?!

[megatron0]

Man!!! Plastic Lights now? I knew Heavies were heading this way but Lights now as well? And they are more expensive than the metal ones. Where oh where is my full metal fantasy?!

The full metal fantasy is in the game world the 'jacks in the game are metal not plastic, i doubt that the description full metal fanatsy refers to what the product is made of, though i could be completly wrong :P
but you still get 'casters, solos and units :)

[N0rdicNinja]

My wallet is jumping up and down with glee at this news! But my paint brush lets out a disappointed sigh... I've always enjoyed painting metal minis over plastic ones. I really have no idea why, but I just seem to be more efficient when working with metal. Of course this opens up a whole new set of possibilities for modding, which is a def plus! =)

[Loveless]

And they are more expensive than the metal ones.

Compare their price to the Character Lights, as they are much larger than the metal versions.

[DemonCalibre]

I suspect that these kits will build all the lights, and they just haven't said it yet.

It seems silly to pass over an opportunity to sell all your jacks in one box.

People keep getting all bent out of shape vs. the metal cost. You do realize that it is quick likely that the metal prime era models are underpriced, because Privateer doesn't want to price hike them every year. If you compare them other jacks within the faction, they are much cheaper then their metal peers. While they are a bit smaller, they aren't that much smaller.

When they did their big price hike, they mentioned that the prime era models were no longer profitable(or tiny profit margin for Privateer). I suspect time has gone on to further deplete that generated profit margin.

[Lexington]

Where oh where is my full metal fantasy?!
Hopefully not weighing down my poor, long-suffering minis case anymore. ;)

[whitekong]

Compare their price to the Character Lights, as they are much larger than the metal versions.

They are still made of plastic, the stuff is almost free. I don't think size is a good justification for price.

[PPS_Simon]

They are still made of plastic, the stuff is almost free. I don't think size is a good justification for price.

True, plastic is quite inexpensive. Concept art, sculptors, plastic molds, labor, shipping, and customs on the other hand cost money.

[Valander]

True, plastic is quite inexpensive. Concept art, sculptors, plastic molds, labor, shipping, and customs on the other hand cost money.

What? You mean you all don't work on a volunteer basis? Of all the.... ;)

I'd just really, really like to know if the existing lights are going to either be re-released in plastic, updated sculpts, or if we're going to be stuck with old jalopies for some variants.

[Red5angel]

They are still made of plastic, the stuff is almost free. I don't think size is a good justification for price.

It's never that simple. As PPS_Simon pointed out there's a lot behind the scenes but what it comes down to is this is a company designed to make a profit. In this case, I think Privateer makes an honest attempt to balance out profit with affordability and fairness. I think their business practices are sound.

In short, I'm comfortable in saying I do not believe there is a conspiracy to charge you more money, "just because" ;)

[whitekong]

Well everyone can say whatever they want about what a model should cost, I was just trying to point out that saying the model is bigger that's why it's more expesive is silly. I understand that privateer is in buisiness to make money and I am not saying they shouldn't.

[Redphantasm]

They are still made of plastic, the stuff is almost free. I don't think size is a good justification for price.

So my fleece jacket should be almost free? It's made of plastic after all.

[saxondog]

Concept art, sculptors, plastic molds, labor, shipping, and customs on the other hand cost money.

All of which are present during the production of a metal model.
I think many people on these forums mistakeningly believed that plastic was going to lead to significant price reductions. Justify it any way you want this hasn't really happened. When you divide out the cost per model on a unit, it ends up being about $7-1$10 per model for plastic. Cheaper than metal, "Yes". A great value for my money, a whole-hearted NO.

Two final things;
Know Whitekong personally and he complained about the cost of models when the where metal. His complaint has nothing to to with materials, it is all about value for your money.

Finally, I am one of those people mentioned by Matt Wilson when he said a small percentage of PP customers can afford the all metal line a any cost.
Whenever i read one of the threads about how great plastic is I die a little inside.

SFK

[PPS_Simon]

All of which are present during the production of a metal model.
I think many people on these forums mistakeningly believed that plastic was going to lead to significant price reductions. Justify it any way you want this hasn't really happened. When you divide out the cost per model on a unit, it ends up being about $7-1$10 per model for plastic. Cheaper than metal, "Yes". A great value for my money, a whole-hearted NO.

Two final things;
Know Whitekong personally and he complained about the cost of models when the where metal. His complaint has nothing to to with materials, it is all about value for your money.

Finally, I am one of those people mentioned by Matt Wilson when he said a small percentage of PP customers can afford the all metal line a any cost.
Whenever i read one of the threads about how great plastic is I die a little inside.

SFK

As we have said repeatedly, plastic helps us stabilize prices, not reduce them. I think our new plastic kits provide an excellent value and provide some fantastic modeling opportunities, That said, I'm sorry you disagree and hope you'll continue to enjoy the majority of models that we continue to produce in metal.

[Loveless]

They are still made of plastic, the stuff is almost free. I don't think size is a good justification for price.

...but, they ARE cheaper than the similarly-sized metal models...

Blessing of Vengeance is $29.99, Vigilant is $18.99

Thorn is $27.99, Firefly is $18.99.

Those are both pretty good savings over the same-size chunk of metal.

That said, Simon's already described all the other costs involved, and that the point is to maintain the price as opposed to lowering the price.

[Turbulence]

I'm not going to stop playing (unless in Mk III Caine switches factions for some reason) I really enjoy the game. But Plastic have burned disdain in me because of the Voldemort company (those who shall not be named). They produced Plastic minis in there own factory for pennys (or pence if your from there) and then charged top dollar for them. Ever increasing their prices annually.

I'm not saying Privateer Press is doing that. For the most part I've been overjoyed at the moves PP has done. But what PP did do is explain to everyone the increase in cost due to the metal price going up world wide, and then introduce the idea of Plastic models. But when I can see that for example the Charger, Lancer, and Sentinel (all metal models at this point) on PP gallery are listed cheaper than the new plastic Firefly coming out (no matter how cool the model looks). Now the plastics PP is producing are a million time better in quality (IMHO) than anything Voldemort has produced hands down. But I really wonder in the long run how plastics will hold up to where and tear minis go through compared to there metal brethren.

[Cloud-Gatherer]

I'm not going to stop playing (unless in Mk III Caine switches factions for some reason) I really enjoy the game. But Plastic have burned disdain in me because of the Voldemort company (those who shall not be named)...
Say it with me: GAMES WORKSHOP.

See? Nothing bad happens. Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself. ;)

And there are many valid criticisms of GW, but the cost and quality of their plastic miniatures are not among them (with the possible exception of things like SM Terminators).

[whitekong]

As we have said repeatedly, plastic helps us stabilize prices, not reduce them.
.
This^
Now all I am saying is privateer is switching to plastic to save money in the long run, but are we going to see any of these savings? I don't think so. All that said I still love ths game and will continue to buy models, but to all the fanboys that say 18.99 is a good deal for a plastic light jack I disagree.
And just so everyone understands I have no problems with plastic models, but if I am getting something that is cheaper to make shouldn't I also see some of the savings.
Just a thought.

[The Beast of Caer Banogh]

My only beef with the plastic thing is I remember the inane rhetoric in the early page 5s about bringing the metal or somesuch. I understand the fiery vigour of youth, but I really hope page 5 becomes a bit more... tempered in the future.

The thing I don't get about the people who think that $19 for a plastic jack is not okay but $29 for a metal jack is, is what exactly one does that the other can't. Yes, okay, one's heavy. Here's a thought. Buy a plastic jack and fill in $9 of heavy metal in the base. These things don't DO anything aside from look pretty and represent things in a game - whether they're metal or not has no bearing on anything.

Now, okay, there's the feel and heft of a metal model. But you have to realise that's just something circumstancial about the time you started playing. People who don't feel that way about heft just simply aren't going to understand you, because it's not a complaint to have based on reason. I mean, value is a subjective thing so there's nothing technically wrong with what you're saying, but it has a tendency to shut down discussion. You're not going to convince people who don't already agree with you, and you aren't going to be convinced by other people (and rightly so, since caring or not caring about heft isn't a matter of reason).

Am I miffed when a company makes more money off the same thing (and I contend a metal Ironclad and plastic Ironclad are the same thing)? Heck yes. But any consideration will show that I have no idea what their profits were at T1, when they made metal ICs, and T2, where they made plastic ICs, so my feeling miffed is just sort of dumb. I'm also WAY MORE irate when GW pulls something like this because it just reminds me again of how they treat their customers and their retailers. When PP does it (and note, the plastics ARE cheaper than comparable metals), I'm not left with the same reminder of past grievances, because I don't really have many.

[Hiratu]

All of which are present during the production of a metal model.
I think many people on these forums mistakeningly believed that plastic was going to lead to significant price reductions. Justify it any way you want this hasn't really happened. When you divide out the cost per model on a unit, it ends up being about $7-1$10 per model for plastic. Cheaper than metal, "Yes". A great value for my money, a whole-hearted NO.


A 5 man unit of metal Champions for trolls is $45 a 10 man unit of plastic Fennblades is $50. I think for some things like medium based infantry we will see nice price reductions, for other things not so much. That comes out to $5 per model on the fennblades which can be reduced further if buying from an online retailer that offers a discount. I'm not sure where the plastic hate is coming from. Do I personally prefer metal? Yes. Am I going to go ape **** because somethings are moving to plastic? No.

[Cloud-Gatherer]

This^
Now all I am saying is privateer is switching to plastic to save money in the long run, but are we going to see any of these savings? I don't think so.
We already are. We know how much a Firefly-sized jack (Thorn) costs in metal, and it's 47% more than the Firefly costs in plastic. I would call that "savings."

Also, there's no reason to resort to name-calling.

[Dantes]

A 5 man unit of metal Champions for trolls is $45 a 10 man unit of plastic Fennblades is $50. I think for some things like medium based infantry we will see nice price reductions, for other things not so much. That comes out to $5 per model on the fennblades which can be reduced further if buying from an online retailer that offers a discount. I'm not sure where the plastic hate is coming from. Do I personally prefer metal? Yes. Am I going to go ape **** because somethings are moving to plastic? No.
This.

Plastic Tharn Wolf riders please, my wallet hurts just looking at them.

[zombie-a-go-go]

I want my plastic MOW. That is all.

[Loveless]

but to all the fanboys that say 18.99 is a good deal for a plastic light jack I disagree.
And just so everyone understands I have no problems with plastic models, but if I am getting something that is cheaper to make shouldn't I also see some of the savings.


1) Calling people fanboys for using math is unwarranted.
2) If you don't consider a jack that is $9 to $11 cheaper than its metal equivalent (Thorn and Blessing of Vengeance), I have no idea how cheap you expect these models to be.

I remember on WarSeer not that long ago - there was a poster complaining about how the new Plastic Tyranid Raveners were more expensive than the Plastic Tyranid Warriors - he wanted a price reduction if the Raveners were plastic!

What he failed to realize was that the Raveners themselves were some 25% cheaper than they were before.

As an aside, I don't care about the material. I'll buy it as long as I like the way the model looks. I will say that I'm far happier paying $19 for a new Protectorate light than I am paying the $30 it would have cost in metal.

[DemonCalibre]

20 bucks for a Plastic Light the size of Thorn(and will most likely come with all the bits to make the other lights) is a great deal.

I will most certainly be buying them as well. Looking at GW plastics, the prices on all their plastics are very compeditive, I mean 10 plastic Fenblades vs. 5 plastic Terminators, The Dreadnought vs. Heavy Warjacks, Light Jacks vs. Landspeeders.

In almost all cases Privateer's price comes in well under these similarly bracketed models, and you require less of them to play.

I think the plastic haters need to get a reality check on compeditive pricing, plastic doesn't mean cheap, not even remotely(see Screaming Bell for Skaven, if you want a perfect example of Plastic Sticker Shock)

[Writer@Large]

Say it with me: GAMES WORKSHOP.
AAAHHHHHH!!!!! :eek:

--W@L

[Nalik]

True, plastic is quite inexpensive. Concept art, sculptors, plastic molds, labor, shipping, and customs on the other hand cost money.


Chinese plastic mold makers can manufacture at very low cost. However, they can't communicate with foreign clients effectively and need close supervision on quality.

If you factor in customs and the under estimated work in managing QA\QC is it really cheaper to import? Was there no US competition?

[Loveless]

I think the plastic haters need to get a reality check on compeditive pricing, plastic doesn't mean cheap, not even remotely(see Screaming Bell for Skaven, if you want a perfect example of Plastic Sticker Shock)

Bad example - the Bell is huge, highly detailed, and comes with a bunch of extra bits that pull double-duty as other units for the Skaven.

Good example - GW's plastic Greatswords. $42 for 10 models on 20mm bases.

Other good example - GW's plastic Steam Tank. Nearly the same size as a Heavy Myrmidon at around twice the cost.

[PPS_Simon]

If you factor in customs and the under estimated work in managing QA\QC is it really cheaper to import? Was there no US competition?

I don't know the details of our logistics, nor would I be permitted to share that information if I did. However, I am sure that we exercised the utmost diligence when we made our production choices.

[Writer@Large]

PPS_Simon, while you're here ... will they let you confirm or deny that these new plastic lights are multi-jack kits like the heavies?

--W@L

[Cloud-Gatherer]

Bad example - the Bell is huge, highly detailed, and comes with a bunch of extra bits that pull double-duty as other units for the Skaven.

Good example - GW's plastic Greatswords. $42 for 10 models on 20mm bases.

Other good example - GW's plastic Steam Tank. Nearly the same size as a Heavy Myrmidon at around twice the cost.
I don't know that you could call those "good" or "bad" examples.

Metal Greatswords were even more expensive than the plastic ones, and you got four different models that repeated ad infinitum. The plastic ones are better-looking models and don't all look the same.

I can't defend the Steam Tank, except that it's also crazy detailed and apparently also comes with a lot of extra parts.

But for every $42 box of 10 Greatswords, there are MANY better-priced boxes, such as $22 for 5 Cold One Knights. That'll barely buy ONE cavalry model for Warmachine. The only consistent price-per-model outliers in GW's range are Space Marines, and let's face it, GW could charge $50 for a Tactical Squad and people would still buy them.

[Turbulence]

I don't compare the Firefly to Thorn though. Nor do I compare the Cyclone to Ol' Rowdy. There is a lot of detail in named warjacks, that isn't in their no named cousins. I compare the Firefly to the Sentinel or the Charger. And that's where I'm seeing the price discrepancy. It's not much more, but it is more.



Oh and... Games Workshop...

[Ivellis]

I don't compare the Firefly to Thorn though. Nor do I compare the Cyclone to Ol' Rowdy. There is a lot of detail in named warjacks, that isn't in their no named cousins. I compare the Firefly to the Sentinel or the Charger. And that's where I'm seeing the price discrepancy. It's not much more, but it is more.

The Firefly is larger than the lancer, sentinel or charger and has more detail, just like Thorn. Yes it has a little less detail than Thorn, but not much, and it's cheaper. I don't see the price discrepancy.

[Killionaire]

Thorn is a character Warjack, and his pricepoint was reflected in the fact that players only needed to ever, EVER buy one. That's why Drago for example is 60 bucks, and Rowdy is 50.

Plastics don't suffer much cost at all in materials, but have a more expensive casting process. It'll save them money in the longer run, but individual small-run models are more efficient to be metal. In this case, it wouldn't make sense NOT to sell Plastic Lancers, Sentinels and Chargers, because they already have the majority of the mold in the Firefly's chassis.

[whitekong]

Ok all I am going to say is if these plastic models are such a great deal at 18.99, how is privateer making any money with grind? 10 plastic models with lots of extra pieces for only 69.99, according to you guys we should be happy to pay 190.00 for grind. Oh thats right no one in their right mind would pay $190 for grind, everyone needs to keep these numbers in mind.

[Larkin Vain]

While the 3d modeling used for Grind are the same as these new kits, the material and method of production is not.

While the Grind models are good for a board game, they are not up to the standards for a war gaming hobby. They are rubbery, hard to clean and paint and are very simple in their casting.

In a nutshell you are comparing apples and oranges.

[DemonCalibre]

Different types of Plastic, Grind uses a lower quality rubbery plastic(better then Green Army Men, but not by a huge margin). I have actually had the mispleasure of working with the stuff, trust me, you don't want to.

[saxondog]

As we have said repeatedly, plastic helps us stabilize prices, not reduce them. I think our new plastic kits provide an excellent value and provide some fantastic modeling opportunities, That said, I'm sorry you disagree and hope you'll continue to enjoy the majority of models that we continue to produce in metal.

Not really disagreeing with you at all. While I can afford "Full Metal Fantasy", I know many others aren't so lucky. Stabilizing prices can only help the game grow. COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND the business behind this decision. But a Huge part of me wishes that PP would of treated their product line like the Roll Royce it was. Stay all metal and thumb their noses at those "unfortunates' who couldn't afford to run with the big dogs. Now back to my wine and cigar:D.

SFK

[saxondog]

A 5 man unit of metal Champions for trolls is $45 a 10 man unit of plastic Fennblades is $50. I think for some things like medium based infantry we will see nice price reductions, for other things not so much. That comes out to $5 per model on the fennblades which can be reduced further if buying from an online retailer that offers a discount. I'm not sure where the plastic hate is coming from. Do I personally prefer metal? Yes. Am I going to go ape **** because somethings are moving to plastic? No.

I guess it is personal taste what is a good value. A $5 plastic trooper doesn't necessarily impress me as a great value. A $10 metal trooper, while still overpriced, feels like an heirloom.
Said this before years ago Plastic trooper = toy, metal trooper = art.
I like being an art collector not an toy enthusiast.

SFK

[Cloud-Gatherer]

I guess it is personal taste what is a good value. A $5 plastic trooper doesn't necessarily impress me as a great value. A $10 metal trooper, while still overpriced, feels like an heirloom.
Said this before years ago Plastic trooper = toy, metal trooper = art.
I like being an art collector not an toy enthusiast.

SFK
Really? "Art collector?" :rolleyes:

Metal toy soldiers are still toys. I think this hobby would be a lot better off if people would stop trying to pretend otherwise.

[saxondog]

Different types of Plastic, Grind uses a lower quality rubbery plastic(better then Green Army Men, but not by a huge margin). I have actually had the mispleasure of working with the stuff, trust me, you don't want to.

Serious question here. DemonCalibre, you are saying that the difference in quality is that extreme, I have zero interest in Grind as a game. Model wise it seems like a good investment for terrain, but if it's that bad I'll personally be passing.

SFK

[Techcasualty]

Serious question here. DemonCalibre, you are saying that the difference in quality is that extreme, I have zero interest in Grind as a game. Model wise it seems like a good investment for terrain, but if it's that bad I'll personally be passing.

SFK
if you are buying grind for the models, you're doing it wrong

[Rapier]

well, this is in a bit of reverse order but, PG_Cloud-Gather, are you sure that these metal toy soldiers can't be classed as art ever? My painting never could be no, but some people's metal models can be for certain.

On Metal vs Plastic, the real question in regards to savings isn't, how does the firefly compare to the sentinel (or any other old jack) but, how does the cost of the plastic firefly compare to the cost of the metal firefly... PP I presume calculated the cost of both to hit the profit margin they wanted... if they say that the plastic firefly is a saving then you have to accept what they say. Or disbelieve them entirely (as people tend to with Games Workshop).

Obviously if anyone feels it's overpriced for a plastic warjack, well don't buy it. If many people agree PP will lower the price. They'll want to sell the things for the best profit margin they can. If it doesn't sell, lowing the price so that it does sell is there best move. It's priced how it is because PP clearly think that price will shift the stock, any higher and they think it won't sell as well, lower and while it will sell better there profits will be worse... in theory.


On Games Workshop plastics: they are imo a rip-off, the reason why is somewhat artificial. Specifically the design model for creating 40k and Warhammer artificially limits your choice of army composition - units that fall into the more interesting (And Rarer) catagories, cost more - even if they have less metal, or less plastic.

GW prices there models based on production cost AND point cost. As a result my Tyrant guard cost a lot more than my tyranid warriors, my raveners cost more than my tyranid warriors.

Now Tyrant guard were solid metal models, huge tower shield type units, I could see why they cost more. Raveners on the other hand were essentially half a tyranid warrior bolted onto a much smaller bottom half. They've cost more ever since they came out in 3rd edition.

I don't accept the argument that I can field less Raveners, because per the rules I might need 27 or so Raveners, and while I could in theory field 54 Tyranid warriors (not counting weird ones you had to convert like winged ones), who would? In practice you'll get one or two full units of both of these, i.e. 18 of each. All common and tournament game formats would cater in this way.

The argument for making the character jacks cost more compared to non-character jacks is based on the standard point size. I may very well want two defenders, I'll never want two ironclads. Additionally characters (PP or GW) have more detail and generally are nicer models all around, rightly so.

PP hasn't lost my faith in there model range because they cost there models on production alone as far as I can tell. Cavalry are so expensive, why? They're expensive to produce, yes a unit of cavalry has a hefty points cost, but it's comparable to a heavy jack.

Longgunners and Trenchers cost about the same, why? Production values are about the same, if I want to save money in the long run I can buy the trenchers, they're worth more points so I need less models. GW's main sting (and they still don't seem to see the error of this) is that they price there models essentially on use or production, whichever is better for them.

So swarm armies like skaven, nids, orks... and more than any other the imperial guard, cost a fortune to create compared to elite armies. Discount the space marines, they make up a huge % of GW's annual sales and follow different rules, the plastic terminators have a completely stupid price point really.


Finally; 18.99 IS a good deal, because if you compare it to alternatives its better than they are... providing your alternatives are other wargames.

You want to compare wargames to say computer games? My PC games are 200% or more better value for money based on time I spend playing them compared to there cost, an 18.99 PC game will keep me going a lot longer than an 18.99 light jack.

On the other hand the boardgames I buy are terrible for there cost. I have boardgames I get to play once a year or so that cost £40... hobbies are priced relative to themselves not each other.

Edit: Personal preference:

I prefer metal, I'd rather they stayed metal, I like painting metal more I find it easier and I think that metal models look better painted. So far based on pictures I like the metal jacks more. I've got the Bastions and PP does good plastics, but my preference is metal. It isn't an issue that I care about though, I've been playing since before Prime came out, what they make the models out of really is secondary to me to what they do with the world.

[Cloud-Gatherer]

well, this is in a bit of reverse order but, PG_Cloud-Gather, are you sure that these metal toy soldiers can't be classed as art ever? My painting never could be no, but some people's metal models can be for certain.
If calling a model "art" is based on its paint job, then it shouldn't matter whether the model is metal or plastic underneath the paint. If you're not talking about the paint job, then you're talking about a mass-produced toy that looks just like every other copy of that same mass-produced toy and you can't claim to be an "art collector" because you bought one of it just like thousands of other people.

[N0rdicNinja]

If calling a model "art" is based on its paint job, then it shouldn't matter whether the model is metal or plastic underneath the paint. If you're not talking about the paint job, then you're talking about a mass-produced toy that looks just like every other copy of that same mass-produced toy and you can't claim to be an "art collector" because you bought one of it just like thousands of other people.

The mini was still sculpted by a skilled artist, I would certainly call that art. Or would you consider only the original to be the true piece of art? I could see that argument holding water, but it doesn't make the duplicates any less amazing to look at.

[Wishing]

The mini was still sculpted by a skilled artist, I would certainly call that art. Or would you consider only the original to be the true piece of art? I could see that argument holding water, but it doesn't make the duplicates any less amazing to look at.

The point is that if we say that a mini is a piece of art, then it is art regardless of what material it is made of.

I understand that a metal model may *feel* more like a collectible bauble, where a plastic model would feel more like a cheap toy, but that's an emotional response based on association and not a serious argument about what does or doesn't constitute art.

[skrulnik]

My perception is that they made them bigger for a few reasons:

1. They kept customer prices low for too long and can't make their margin with plastics at the current prices.

2. Customers will balk at buying plastics for higher prices when the models are virtually the same.

3. Larger models will obsolete the older, smaller metals. Those with the means will buy all new models.

My hope is that the prices will stay at what they have released for about 5 years. The value will be seen then.
I think that many gamers fail to factor in inflation into their hobbies' costs. Also maybe there is a tendency to compare our costs to those of movies, video games, and CDs which have stayed fairly stable regardless of other factors.

All this does not mean I am happy to pay more to play this game.
The higher the costs, the less I can purchase. Simple as that.

[notsoevil]

LOL .. art.

We buy little dollies and some of us put make up on them.

[Saleem]

If these are being packed in a blister then it makes sense why they are not multi kit unlike the heavies, It probably just wont fit. Well definitely getting a few vigilants and fireflys to replace my collection.