pThagrosh - Thoughts?

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

I see it coming up a lot in other threads taht many feel pThagrosh isn't quite where he should be. But havn't seen much chatter on what they would like to see happen.

So please.. share some thoughts on what would help the Orginal Pimp :).


One I like..

Athanc - After leaching, this model gains 1 fury point if it has fewer fury points than its FURY or may Heal d3 damage.

In respects to this death shroud... I like that its automatic, its shortfall however is its only rng 9. And Thagrosh can have issue with getting up the board quickly.

The 2 Glareing issues I see with him.. are his feat, and obliteration.

His feat... well its better then MK 1.. but still sucks as a feat. Reactive Feats are terrible feats. Having to wait for your opponent to do somethign just so you can use your feat stinks. Feats are all about swinging the battle in your favor or decreaseing the potency of your opponenets turn. Thagrosh's Feat does nether of these.

I think pThagrosh would be better serverd with a 2 prong style feat. Give Thagrosh the option of bringing a warbeast back from the dead. Or prehaps healing a warbeast to full? One of the players up here even suggest to take a page from Cryx in that Thagroshs dark Rival feat might place 5 Incubus within 3' of thagrosh when used.

Ether case.. it would give his feat a active option, something it desperatly needs. Thagrosh feat in its current incarnation can never be used to really swing the tide of battle or seal the deal on a win.

Now to his spell...

Obliteration

I can honestly say in my years of playing Thagrosh (hes one of my favorite warlocks) I have never found a good use for this spell on thagrosh. Hes always got something else thats better for him to use his fury on, and at the cost of 4 fury it eats to many of his resource for no real bang.

That said,... Im not intirely sure what I would like to see this spell replaced with. Currently thagrosh has a toolbox of spells already at his disposable.
pThagrosh seems a bit like hes more about giving his army options and moving them across the field. He has many universal spells that effect both beast and troopers.

So prehaps a multi purpose attack spells that has a similar function to obliteration, but with a side benefit for his army (who is mostly pathfinder).

Rift 3 8 4 13 No Yes
The AOE is rough terrain and remains in play for one round.

Its a similar ranged AoE, with the added benefit of placeing a rough terrain template on the field.

[The Nightwalker]

Placing Incubi would be a cool feat effect. Kind of like old MK I pGoreshade's feat where you could either summon a unit of Bane Thralls or if you were an idiot force every enemy in his control area to make a command check or flee. We get a great option and an at its utmost highly situational but still tactically unsound option. Though I'd rather it be something like:

Dark Vivisection

EITHER place Five Incubi solo models within 3" of Thagrosh. these models may activate this turn. OR Target warbeast may slam, trample or perform power attacks during its next activation without forcing. Target warbeast also recieves autoboosted attack and damage rolls during its next activation.

[Loveless]

Placing Incubi won't happen.

Thagrosh is a Primal warlock. Incubi are not in Primal. Since the contents of Primal won't change save for the additional Warbeast, you can't reference something that's only going to exist in the Faction book.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

Placing Incubi won't happen.

Thagrosh is a Primal warlock. Incubi are not in Primal. Since the contents of Primal won't change save for the additional Warbeast, you can't reference something that's only going to exist in the Faction book.

Considering that all the books are being reprinted into MK 2 format of (all Models for the faction... aka Forces of.. Incert faction name).

What does it matter were a model came from orginaly in mk 1??

[Lich Lord]

My suggestion would be to just add "If the warbeast has not activated this turn it may activate as normal". That way it doesn't loose an activation yet it doesn't gain an additional one either.

[Loveless]

Considering that all the books are being reprinted into MK 2 format of (all Models for the faction... aka Forces of.. Incert faction name).

What does it matter were a model came from orginaly in mk 1??

Because he's still going to be in Primal Mk. II while Incubi won't be? :confused:

They've said that the contents of Prime and Primal will be the same in Mk II as they were in Mk I, with the addition of an extra Warjack and Warbeast for each faction (respective to the book, obviously).

Effectively, you'd have a model in Primal referencing a solo that isn't in that book. It's just going to be confusing to new players who pick up Primal Mk. II.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

Because he's still going to be in Primal Mk. II while Incubi won't be? :confused:

They've said that the contents of Prime and Primal will be the same in Mk II as they were in Mk I, with the addition of an extra Warjack and Warbeast for each faction (respective to the book, obviously).

Effectively, you'd have a model in Primal referencing a solo that isn't in that book. It's just going to be confusing to new players who pick up Primal Mk. II.

Links please...


As far as I knew Hordes was getting the same treatment as Warmachine.

[The Nightwalker]

Then ditch the first effect and make it a one-target Saeryn effect. target warbeast cannot be damaged for one round, plus buffs.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

Just a playing around with some ideas for the feat....


Feat: Dark Revival
Thagrosh may ether return one destroyed warbeast that was part of his battlegroup to play or remove all damage done to one warbeast in his battlegroup. Warbeast returned to play must be placed anywhere completely within 3" of Thagrosh. If the warbeast hasn't activated this turn it may activate as normal, otherwise it must forfit its activation. Warbeast effected by Dark Revival gains +2 ARM and Overtake for one turn.

[Loveless]

As far as I knew Hordes was getting the same treatment as Warmachine.

Uhm, it is?

See, Prime is still going to have Stryker, Caine, Haley, the Ironclad, the Defender, the Lancer, the Sentinel, etc. etc.

Primal is still going to have Thagrosh, Lylyth, Vayl, the Carnivean, the Seraph, the Teraph, the Harrier, etc. etc.

These will be duplicated in the Faction books, but also available in Prime/Primal for people just getting into the game.

Referencing a model NOT in Prime/Primal in the rules for a model that IS in Prime/Primal is going to confuse new players. It would make sense in FoH: Legion of Everblight, but it wouldn't make sense in Hordes: Primal.

I'm not sure I can make this clearer...It'd be like giving Morghoul a Feat that only works on Bronzebacks - the Bronzeback isn't in Primal, so the reference won't make sense.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

Uhm, it is?

See, Prime is still going to have Stryker, Caine, Haley, the Ironclad, the Defender, the Lancer, the Sentinel, etc. etc.

Primal is still going to have Thagrosh, Lylyth, Vayl, the Carnivean, the Seraph, the Teraph, the Harrier, etc. etc.

These will be duplicated in the Faction books, but also available in Prime/Primal for people just getting into the game.

Referencing a model NOT in Prime/Primal in the rules for a model that IS in Prime/Primal is going to confuse new players. It would make sense in FoH: Legion of Everblight, but it wouldn't make sense in Hordes: Primal.

I'm not sure I can make this clearer...It'd be like giving Morghoul a Feat that only works on Bronzebacks - the Bronzeback isn't in Primal, so the reference won't make sense.

...You seem to be argueing over something that no one else is argeeing or disargeeing with *shrug*

[Loveless]

...You seem to be argueing over something that no one else is argeeing or disargeeing with *shrug*

You kept questioning it...all I did was say that you can't have pThagrosh reference Incubi in his rules - which was a suggestion put forth in this thread.

You asked why, I answered why.

You didn't get it, so I elaborated.

If you're done with it, I'm done with it :p



I think pThagrosh would be better serverd with a 2 prong style feat. Give Thagrosh the option of bringing a warbeast back from the dead. Or prehaps healing a warbeast to full? One of the players up here even suggest to take a page from Cryx in that Thagroshs dark Rival feat might place 5 Incubus within 3' of thagrosh when used.



Considering that all the books are being reprinted into MK 2 format of (all Models for the faction... aka Forces of.. Incert faction name).

What does it matter were a model came from orginaly in mk 1??

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

You kept questioning it...all I did was say that you can't have pThagrosh reference Incubi in his rules - which was a suggestion put forth in this thread.

You asked why, I answered why.

You didn't get it, so I elaborated.

If you're done with it, I'm done with it :p

No you can't have the last word!!!!! :p

Still not sure what your argueing about *shrug* I only asked for a link, not for you to restate what you already said earlyer. I'll just go look up the info myself when I have a moment.

Lets move on to talking about pThagrosh and stop ****ty up the thread with side tracks :cool:

[Neutralyze]

so far in my games i have tried to make great use out of Deathshroud being only his cmd range. this has costed me due to being greedy.

what do you think about Deathshroud being his control area? is that a bit much? i am also having a hard time understanding why our warbeast cant come back into play and activate in the same turn?

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

Since we now can use Epics and all game formats.. I kinda wonder if maybe they should bump up pThagrosh CMD to 10, this would give an extra 1' to his death shroud.

14' auto death shroud may be over board.


Yeah how long did darius go throw life with pit stop not careing lol and poor Thagrosh got shafted hard by it. And here in FT we see him once again getting shafted by it.

Without a doubt I think pThagrosh has the single worst feat in the entire game with room to spare.

[Loveless]

From the old forum - I copied this over to WarSeer, which was easier for me to search than the PP forum :p


The Retribution will not be a part of Prime Mk II, and all the Prime models will be in their respective Force Books.



No, there is simply some overlap. We felt it was still important for new players learning the rules to have access to all of the original models in Prime (plus an additional new warjack for each of the four original factions), as these provide a good initial starting point to understand the game and get a feel for the factions. Additionally, it would make the force books less useful as a reference if those models were excluded.
For example, Commander Coleman Stryker will be in both Prime Mk II and the Cygnar Force Book.


----

Back to the Prophet:

I think his feat is fine...it lets me play a bit more fast and loose with my glass cannons.

I'd personally like Death Shroud to go to Control instead of Command.

Obliteration isn't bad, necessarily.

Other spells that would make some level of sense...though not necessarily be better...

Ashes to Ashes - fits with Eruption of Ash on Rapture in theme.

Dust to Dust - creates a Cloud that's less effective than Rapture's clouds, weaker and cheaper, but provides more places to hide.

[Jaster]

I'd agree with a lot of the points here, I donno I'd go for the Incubi feat, but as much as I like Thagrosh and field him, I have yet to use his feat, since while they see him on the board, generally, nothing bigger then a shredder dies till the game ends, and this is often with me trying to get a light or better beast killed simply to revive it. I've used Oblieration a few times, mostly just to say I've used it, I'd generally rather Mutagenesis into an Infantry cluster and just slash them all down.

[grottoknight]

Mutagenesis should allow for movement after accomplished.

Obliteration rough terrain idea sounds peachy. AND/OR make it POW 16

How about giving him his pimp claw but not as strong as e-version.

His feat will not change. It is good and can bring back a carny or typhon and now allows the model to move. They will never allow Thags to get slipped 2", move 5", Muta (+1"base forgivenesss) 9", and then feat a Typhon and charge 10.5" for a possible 26.5" threat range.

[Awefaw]

Obliteration is staying as is. Quite a few models have in in wm mk2 now.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

From the old forum - I copied this over to WarSeer, which was easier for me to search than the PP forum :p



Now was that really hard to link LOL :p

Thank you btw :cool:


back to topic


I would rather see pThagrosh get a total new feat then. Not to get preachy but... reactive feats Suck in a game thats all about being active/aggressive. Thagrosh I think has the only reactive feat in the game :(

Death shroud to ctrl I be willing to test out and see how it plays out. I'm for it ... I just wonder if it as automatic is to much or not.

I'm all fo just about any other spell being put in instead of Obliterate.. baring its 3 fury or less and brings something to thagrosh's toolbox play style.

[VyperUoR]

Whilst we are throwing out ideas, how about this:

Dark Spawning
You may roll up to three dice. Place a non-character lesser warbeast within 3" of Thagrosh for each dice rolled. Thagrosh suffers damage equal to the roll, this damage may not be transferred. These warbeasts may activate the turn they come into play but must forefeit either their movement or action.

This is a non-reactive feat, indeed it is best used early, the shredders/harriers can be used to either give him a bit more threat range, or block up charge lanes, or extract him from combat.

Maybe give him the option to roll more dice, or transfer away the damage even in some way (each dice as a seperate damage roll, or all together)

[Nargacuga]

Hmm.. Dark Spawning... not bad, not bad...

Rather than a replacement, I would prefer adding it as an option to his current feat.

Either revive a warbeast or pop out some lessers. Like eSevvy his feat gives him options. :cool:

btw, one of the best things about this feat is how it gels with his Epic version. (i.e. the pattern of reusing the prime feat as a spell or ability in the epic)

[amphoterik]

Accept you could 1-shot yourself. Hardly a good option for 3 lessers. I don't think anyone would ever attempt it.

[Nargacuga]

Accept you could 1-shot yourself. Hardly a good option for 3 lessers. I don't think anyone would ever attempt it.

The concept is good..

I think 1d3 damage per lesser is reasonable enough.

[amphoterik]

I think the concept of getting lessers from a feat is a little weak. I mean, hell, thag gets a lesser just for taking damage. I expect more than lessers from Everblight himself. I like the ability to get a beast back, but at the same time, it is game breaking to let is activate the same turn it is spawned. I like the concept of the dual pronged feat, reactive and proactive.

[Garth]

Well, would it really be game breaking to let it active the turn it comes into play ?

How about "may not advance the turn it comes into play" ? Then it could shoot or Thagrosh could charge something, use his feat and the beasts attacks something. But the army wouldn't get a crazy threat range, because the beast can not walk. This would sound ok for me.

[amphoterik]

See, thag could charge or move recklessly towards the enemy caster, then pop feat and spawn a seraph that could lob d3+1 boosted shots at the now exposed caster. It is the kind of crazy sideways last ditch assassinations they did away with mostly in MKII. Like the borka bomb of old.

[Garth]

See, thag could charge or move recklessly towards the enemy caster, then pop feat and spawn a seraph that could lob d3+1 boosted shots at the now exposed caster. It is the kind of crazy sideways last ditch assassinations they did away with mostly in MKII. Like the borka bomb of old.

No they didn't. I really like the High reclaimer. Kill some Vengers, pop out new vengers in the right position, charge, win. And they can move after reviving.

I mean what should be broken about activating without moving ? If Thagrosh comes to the other caster the game is over. If he doesn't the beast can't reach him, perhaps with shooting. But a single Seraph shouldn't kill a caster. And if it is still not stronger than other feats, that do so much better :-).

[CloudFang]

i play pthag a lot and do think he's tough...think he would benfit from death shroud being larger.. 14" might be a bit much but a larger command sounds nice.. 10 or even 11.. that would also boost his troops, like the legionnaires, his elite guard.as far as his feat goes.. how bout beast must sacrifice either movement or action? that allows for some interesting things.. could then be used defensively or offensively.. i wish mutegenisis would let you move after but i think thats too much.

[amphoterik]

I will concede that at face value, allowing the beast to activate may not be game breaking. I do, however, have a bad feeling about it. Without doing much research at the moment, it seems like it could be abused. Even if the models out now won't do it, if a new beast is introduced that is a ranged caster killer, this combo could then become too awesome.

[Falk]

Then just allow the warbeast to activate but limit attacks to melee attacks.

I think if his feat gets fixed he'll be fine. Maybe also increase the range of Mutagenesis. I have never used it but did want to use it a couple of times when I couldn't, due to range issues.

I consider Death Shroud to be a rather weak ability. It does sound awesome for sure, but on the table it never did that much. CTRL instead of CMD surely wouldn't break it.

[amphoterik]

Sure, but if the feat is "bring model back. Model cannot move or do anything but make melee attacks", it is still very limiting. It could be made better by remaking it or giving it another, offensive, function