typhon

[Meatshield]

Overtake is a good solution to the lack of reach problem.
Snacking brings his high degree of healing to the fore.
The two however don't time together well, and overtake doesn't work on ranged attacks.
So what if the two were rolled together into one rule that allowed the timing interaction and maybe allowed overtake to trigger off of ranged attacks (only one move per spray though, and no healing on sprays).
Yes it is a new rule, but it does remove two other rules that may potentially be considered for use on the card.
And we could call it "Ravenous."

[Lazlo]

Overtake could help, but it doesn't really do anything for the "two warrior models with reach shutting down my 12 point beast" problem. But maybe that's not considered a problem by some, just an effect of the game.

What do people think about giving him Quick Work?

[Zerosoul]

I would be perfectly happy to lose Gunfighter to get Reach back. PERFECTLY happy. I'd also like to see +1 ARM and my group agrees that Snacking would fit pretty well.

Failing that, I like Necra-Chi's ideas.

[alchahest]

I think I lost my post -

I think typhon should get one of the following.

Make the following attack: Spr 10 POW 14 Armour piercing. Fire Icon. critical continual fire.
or
* Make the following attack: rng 12 POW 16 Armour piercing. Fire Icon. critical continual fire.

which reflects all three heads shooting at the same target in a concentrated barrage. Multiple heads already accounts for the sprays. since it's a star attack, it's initial attacks are forefeit, and multiple heads states you cannot buy more sprays. this further puts him into the "toolbox" and "spray machine" slot that it looks like PP is trying to slot him into.

[greenlock]

I'd be very sad to see gunfighter go since it gives us a very interesting beast that is able to be up close and personal, breathing fire and attacking, like a dragon should be and not standing back to breathe fire. Plus it also removes the enemys ability to block his sprays. The guy costs 12p, has the defensive stats of a model half his cost(the slayer) so I'd think it just fair game that his offensive is hard to shut down and that he should always have access to his flexibility.

[Defenstrator]

But that's the problem. In games where I'm fighting an infantry heavy army that Typhon can hurt with sprays, he invariably gets tied but by some stupid little reach model that prevents him from getting the full number of attacks.

[greenlock]

But that's the problem. In games where I'm fighting an infantry heavy army that Typhon can hurt with sprays, he invariably gets tied but by some stupid little reach model that prevents him from getting the full number of attacks.

But you don't have to stand still to spray. Just move up and engange. I've never had this trouble as when reach units arrive at typhon there really shouldn't be all that many left as you spray longer than they charge.

[Angelust]

The issue is that he cannot get all 3 sprays. He moves up to engage at .5, sprays, and then the rest are staggered so that you can not get the other 2 sprays.

Before you could at least kill them with reach melee attacks, though now you're simply out of any attack options once that immediate killzone is clear of enemies.

[RoyalAssassin]

But you don't have to stand still to spray.

Not for the first round of sprays. You move forward, spray off whatever you have a mind to spray, cause whatever casualties that causes...

...and your opponent's next turn, a pair of Bane Knights flank your 12-point flamethrower. You're done spraying. You can't him them - your melee range is .5" and they're 2" away. You can't spray - you're engaged and your sprays don't fire while you're *engaged*, only while you're *engaging*, which at this point you are not. You can't move away - you can't afford to sustain weaponmaster free strikes, which will usually hit on 4's or 5's on two dice and inflict aspect-breaking damage.

That's the bit I can't work around. With some variation in offense, I could teach Typhon to act as a standing threat for some area around him. Losing Reach really hurts his area of denied ground, but that's manageable in a couple of ways. Being tied up on any two little guys with Reach and Weaponmaster is untenable.

[Chad]

If I need to pour damage out on a single target, it is typically a heavy beast or jack. The def on these models falls in the 10-13 range, which both carnie and typhon can reliably hit. I'd rather have the carniveans bite as a follow up with fury over typhons.Right but the point of mat DOES make a difference, even on something as low as DEF 10. Against DEF 10 it's an 8% difference to hit, at DEF 12 it's over 11% difference at DEF 13, it's almost a 14% difference.

Even assuming all 7 hits, the difference between their relative output comes out to about 3 damage. 16x2+18x5 =122 vs. 17x7=119. Is that 3 after burning 4 fury damage really worth the increased chance to miss? Not in my book. It certainly doesn't make the Carni more reliable. Unless you happen to be in the ARM sweet spot that allows the carni to damage but not Typhon, which is about ARM 24.
QUOTE=Mobile;58946]This doesn't include theory for buff spells that both sides can ultimately bring. Speaking of which, I still am of the opinion spiny growth is a better purchase. both cost 2 fury. One prevents damage, while the other repairs it. If you have 17 armor and 8 hp, a hit of 25 kills you if you have excessive healing. With spiny growth, you have 2 hp left, and thus cost that little bit more effort to kill.[/quote]I agree with this statement. Spiny growth has the edge, but not because of the miniscule difference, but because it does damage to jacks/beasts. I can accept the animus as better on a lesser costed beast. Slipstream still trumps them all for utility, as does tenacity (WAAAY better). Even shadowstalk is phenomenal. It seems more like you're trying to add fuel to the fire for disliking Typhon.

I don't dislike the Carni because slipstream is a better animus. Honestly, decent melee power melee and are both fairly durable for Legion is about all they have in common. It's where they match up but the similarity ends there, at least in the current incarnation. Though they've already said that Typhon isn't where they want him.

Even if I just want to assault madly across the board with my carnivean, I can get 19" threat. Rat 4 or not, that is much larger than Typhons, and under several buffs, with boosts, a threat to a wide variety of models.I actually didn't disagree. He has about 4" greater threat due to assault with a weaker, but boostable spray. Don't forget, also, the carni is all terrain.

Technically, Typhon has a threat range of 18" with a spray, so long as he has a charge target he can reach within 10.5 inches. Nothing (so far as I can tell) obligates him to target a single model. He can charge at a mild oblique, attack the charged model with melee, and spray whatever else he likes...from any angle. I'll grant that it's harder to set up, but no more or less useful, necessarily than the Carni dangling himself out there just to fire off his spray attack.

Typhon's role is too fuzzy for me to want to squeeze him in when I could take a carnivean instead, and know what it role it wants.His role seems pretty crystal clear to me (though it would likely shift depending upon the caster and army support).

Perhaps I misunderstood something. If Typhon makes a ranged attack using gunfighter, the target is the model in melee, correct? This means the attack is centered on that model. Not on the edge of the models base, not glancing the model, centered on it. How is this superior to assault? Or am I mistaken?It's possible I misunderstood it instead. Gunfighter and 'in melee' would seem to imply it can only target models in it's melee range (which could be more than the charged model). Assualt requires the spray prior to the attacks, where Typhon can make his charge attacks THEN spray. With 1" more movement it allows more freedom to position on the advance and the charge.

Though despite this, I don't think of Typhon like I do a Carnivean. Using them in the same way seems like a bad idea.

I'm under the impression Typhon still needs to pick a model 'in melee' to spray, which is hardly any better than an assault...It may be, but even so it is better than assault if you can engage more than one model. With the potential for critical pitch, you may well be tossing that charged model away, at which point you can freely spray whichever direction you'd like. Now, I'm not saying crit pitch is the best thing, but if you prepare for it's possibility it might just bear fruit.


I feel like the carnivean, angel and seraph all fit their points rather well now, but from my experience and the context I have had, Typhon is just not worth a point over a carnivean.

And I hope I'm not too defensive sounding: I'm glad to have someone question my thoughts, sir.Naw. We're just having a discussion. It's clear you have a preference, many people obviously do. I'm (apparently) one of the few who actually likes Typhon as he is. I don't need reach so that he can be the multifaceted solution for whatever comes a long. He doesn't have to try to fit in the same role as a carni, which is what a lot of people seem to be asking for, though that could be just be my own take on things.

Still, I'm eager to see how they adjust him. I just hope they do more to divide these two models than bring them closer together.

But you don't have to stand still to spray. Just move up and engange. I've never had this trouble as when reach units arrive at typhon there really shouldn't be all that many left as you spray longer than they charge.See this is exactly what I was thinking about it. What stops you from doing so? Unless you're engaged in a perfect conjunction of reach, it seem likely to me that you can just move in and engage multiple without risking a freestrike. It's one of the downsides of reach - wiggle room. If they've got you on both sides, clear a side before moving.

[Allan255]

Proposition:

Remove blight breath, give reach back.
Add "In place of an initial attack, Typhon can cast Blight Breath with a magic ability of [5]. Blight breath is SP8 POW 14 Damage type fire spell"

No more gunfighter / shoot in melee problem :p

PS : really disappointed that the only solution to gunfighter / reach interaction should be to remove it where it's still possible and let it be where it's already too late and pray it's not used too often.

[SaltyBob]

But you don't have to stand still to spray. Just move up and engange. I've never had this trouble as when reach units arrive at typhon there really shouldn't be all that many left as you spray longer than they charge.
But not as far as they can run. Reach troops just need to run and engage Typhon to mitigate his impact on the table. I'm generally quite willing to throw away a few reach troops in order to pin a 12 point model for a turn.

Virtuoso would basically fix the problems, as long as he doesn't keep Gunfighter. Assuming he keeps the wording about being able to choose between spray or bite on his three initial attacks.

[greenlock]

But not as far as they can run. Reach troops just need to run and engage Typhon to mitigate his impact on the table. I'm generally quite willing to throw away a few reach troops in order to pin a 12 point model for a turn.


What do you mean? If we are talking about bane knights here they run 10", Iron fangs run 12". In order to hinder you from walking up and spraying they would need to move at least one model to both sides of Typhon which would require them to be approximately 8" and 10" from Typhon at the start of the turn as they have to move not only to Typhon but at an angle and about 1" past the front of his base. Seems awefully hard to acomplish without getting hit by his spray first and even if they accomplish it you can't honestly say that Typhon doesn't have back up. I usually keep a shredder or two in the back field for tenacity, stopping flanking solos and just these situations. Besides even if you fail to do any of these things Typhon can take a freestrike or two from Bane knights assuming he is undamaged; cast Excessive Healing and you are guaranteed to have all aspects available. I honestly don't see the problem here. The enemy is using a 10p reach unit to limit Typhon for a turn while he and your back up kills them.

[TheLat]

It bothers me that the general trend here is "After Typhon destroys X, he gets taken out by Y. Typhon costs 12 points, so this SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE!" I like my Typhon, but in the absence of support from an army, he should die against any reasonably chosen combination of models and units.

Also, we do not need another Carnivean. Typhon serves a different role, and if you try to use him as a Carnivean, it will cost you. Try adjusting your tactics. Try this: Have Typhon following behind some Blighted Legionnaires and have him spray through them. Typhon wants friends!

[amphoterik]

...and your opponent's next turn, a pair of Bane Knights flank your 12-point flamethrower. You're done spraying. You can't him them - your melee range is .5" and they're 2" away. You can't spray - you're engaged and your sprays don't fire while you're *engaged*, only while you're *engaging*, which at this point you are not. You can't move away - you can't afford to sustain weaponmaster free strikes, which will usually hit on 4's or 5's on two dice and inflict aspect-breaking damage.

Sounds like we finally have a purpose for the nephilim soldier. Let's change him to be infantry support for out tanks ;)

[Allan255]

Also, we do not need another Carnivean. Typhon serves a different role Problem is ... Which one ?

[amphoterik]

I have been a bit of thinking on this since last night. Granted, Typhon without reach can be pinned by Bane thralls. Granted, you can't wipe out a whole unit of reach troops if you are enganged. Granted, Typhon needs something else to hit his "sweet spot".

But maybe, we need to stop putting Typhon in situations that he can no longer handle. The deathjack can get pinned by troops with reach too. (Im pretty sure) Megalith can't take out a whole unit of reach troops.

We do need to keep thinking up ways to improve and define Typhon. But we are a faction that spent all of MKI telling people we weren't OP and they need to adjust their tactics against us to win. Maybe we should be able to take our own advice and do the same with Typhon.

Lets just keep in mind that while the sting of loosing reach runs deep, Typhon is far from bad. He can do some things that no other model in the game can. Whether you wish to suggest increased survivability, increased range potential, or increased utility, lets keep in mind that he is already pretty badass and lets limit our suggestions to the realm of plausability without going too over the top.

I don't know about you, but I would rather have a slightly weaker Typhon than spend the next X years listening to how broken Legion is and how I cannot win on my own merits.

Anyway, just a thought. Please return to your normal theorycrafting.

[Neutralyze]

i think we should let typhon be able to buy ranged attacks after his initial attacks are done.

give him ROF unlimited or put it into the mulitple head rule that he can buy additional spray attacks.

[RuneGrey]

I have been a bit of thinking on this since last night. Granted, Typhon without reach can be pinned by Bane thralls. Granted, you can't wipe out a whole unit of reach troops if you are enganged. Granted, Typhon needs something else to hit his "sweet spot".

But maybe, we need to stop putting Typhon in situations that he can no longer handle. The deathjack can get pinned by troops with reach too. (Im pretty sure) Megalith can't take out a whole unit of reach troops.

Actually, there's very few types of troops, and mainly those from Cryx, that the Deathjack can be 'pinned down' by. It takes heavy jacks to do that job, and that's discounting the fact that if you try and use two solitary troops to pin it, you still have the option of using it's Necromancy to channel the one offensive spell that every Cryxian Warcaster is usually going to have to wipe out one of them.

And that's if you don't want to just trample over several enemy models, eat their souls and heal back the damage from the free strike while at the same time eliminating points in models that have you pinned.

Megalith can do something similar with Geomancy allowing it to engage enemy models outside of its melee range with spells. Typhon currently is lacking options in that area. The closest compairison we can make to Typhon at this point is actually the Thunderhead - which has more range, plus a 'street sweeper' style AOE pulse attack to clear out infantry.

[amphoterik]

Can a Deathjack cast while engaged?

Also, there was a suggestion to give Typhon a "snacking" like ability. This would give him the escape mechanism like the DJ so that, while he may take a freestrike, he can heal back up on a trample.

Maybe thats what Typhon needs: an escape mechanism. I don't know. What do you think?

[Nargacuga]

i think we should let typhon be able to buy ranged attacks after his initial attacks are done.

give him ROF unlimited or put it into the mulitple head rule that he can buy additional spray attacks.

^ I like this idea, just change his multiple head rule to allow any melee attack (not just initial) to be exchanged for a spray with a maximum of 3 sprays per turn minus 1 per lost aspect.

Gains reach,
Gains virtuoso
Loses gunfighter.

Typhon charges a unit and kills the front line with his initial melee attacks, he can then buy additional attacks, 3 of which can be sprays.

[Loveless]

Nevermind...missed a few posts :p

[Neutralyze]

it was stated that reach would not come back to him.

maybe give him a rule where he can choose if he want reach one turn or if we wants gunfighter with normal melee range the next?

what about that?

during this models activation is chooses the following

* gains the reach icon for one round but cannot use its ranged attacks for one round

* gains gunfighter for one round.

this way everyone gets the best of both worlds. in a turn where reach is predominant we can use that but if we need the gunfighter to get in there and cut down infantry or try for an assassination we can choose to do that.

if it does go that route i think snacking would be a cool addition. if not and we give him the ability to buy more ranged attacks after the initials then he can be how he is currently.

thoughts?

[Zerosoul]

Can a Deathjack cast while engaged?

He casts like a warcaster, so yes. He can also always just cast Curse of Shadows (which is on a LOT of Cryx casters) to take the unit's ability to make free strikes or cast Ghost Walk, which allows him to skate away scott-free. The Deathjack is approximately two million times better than Typhon.


Also, there was a suggestion to give Typhon a "snacking" like ability. This would give him the escape mechanism like the DJ so that, while he may take a freestrike, he can heal back up on a trample.

Maybe thats what Typhon needs: an escape mechanism. I don't know. What do you think?

The problem is that the Deathjack has better ARM always, heals more with Rendering, and has access to abilities that allow him to ignore free strikes.

I really like the idea of Typhon with Virtuoso. REALLY like it. In fact, I'm in love with it. It would fix pretty much all my problems if he got Reach and Virtuoso. And +1 ARM and a few bubbles, of course. In fact, that's my proposed solution, which I'll feedback after I test it out a little.

Ultimately, the question is - are three moderate-POW, poor-RAT sprays that you can charge with that amazing, when the model they come on is so fragile, and relatively easy to shut down from being able to do -anything-? Sure, Typhon can put out three sprays while in combat - as long as you're not in combat with anything with Reach, amirite?

Edit: Can we quit playing forum telephone, guys? Reach is not on the table -so long as Typhon has Gunfighter- due to how the mechanics interact. If PP is unwilling to consider taking away Gunfighter then yes, Reach is off the table. But until Soles or DC definitively say "Reach is never coming back no matter what because Typhon MUST have Gunfighter" then it's not a worry.

[Neutralyze]

see my above post for options. i also think if he remains as he is currently that +1 rat is in order and buying additional spray attacks after his initial attacks.

[Mobile]

I agree with this statement. Spiny growth has the edge, but not because of the miniscule difference, but because it does damage to jacks/beasts. I can accept the animus as better on a lesser costed beast. Slipstream still trumps them all for utility, as does tenacity (WAAAY better). Even shadowstalk is phenomenal. It seems more like you're trying to add fuel to the fire for disliking Typhon.

I didn't mention the reflex damage, did I? But, yes, I would always rather spiny growth over excessive healing. And almost always prefer tenacity over spiny growth. but, then again, I always have a shredder in my lists...
As far as damage potential, yeah, there is only a slight difference. one has a higher miss chance, but the other less damage by a tiny bit. I think I wasn't calculating it quite right in my head. I'd still take the carnivean, though, over typhon, for that role just about every time. Both auto hit on a KD'd target. Both hit the same with rapport, though the carnie gains a huge boost in performance. Incite and manifest destiny and all our other buffs put them in very similar conditions: dice +8 and +9 make so little difference save for the 'caster level' of def.


I don't dislike the Carni because slipstream is a better animus. Honestly, decent melee power melee and are both fairly durable for Legion is about all they have in common.

I disagree. Both are flexible models with spray's, high mobility, rather potent offensive melee punch, and rocking sculpts :p. I wouldn't call typhon 'durable' the way I would call a carnivean or protector 'durable.' Both models are tough to kill, no doubt, but their staying power still isn't exactly legendary. Eye opening for legion, but that isn't much.



His role seems pretty crystal clear to me (though it would likely shift depending upon the caster and army support).

You beat me there!



It's possible I misunderstood it instead. Gunfighter and 'in melee' would seem to imply it can only target models in it's melee range (which could be more than the charged model). Assualt requires the spray prior to the attacks, where Typhon can make his charge attacks THEN spray. With 1" more movement it allows more freedom to position on the advance and the charge.

Indeed, upon reviewing the rules for Typhon, and the rules for gunfighter, I see no reason why he could just spray any target. It seems that he would have to kill his charge target (or fling it, as you said) before he could start making the accurate spray's you mention. I'm not willing to gamble a twelve point model trying to get a critical on a charge attack, just to spray down infantry. Of course, if he charges the infantry, this becomes, basically, a non issue, though generally speaking, the charge target will need to be the most important choice: Something typhon can kill in one hit, but big enough and properly positioned enough to get the right angle/range, right? At least 360 Vision helps.



Naw. We're just having a discussion. It's clear you have a preference, many people obviously do. I'm (apparently) one of the few who actually likes Typhon as he is. I don't need reach so that he can be the multifaceted solution for whatever comes a long. He doesn't have to try to fit in the same role as a carni, which is what a lot of people seem to be asking for, though that could be just be my own take on things.

I don't want typhon to make our Carnie outdated the way several character beasts/jacks made other, same role models inferior. I just have trouble picturing what exactly typhon wants to do. Personally, I'd like to see fling be automatic/forced with a drop in P+S on the melee weapons, to take him to board control specialty that our other heavies don't have. Carnie would be damage potential, seraph potent ranged, angel a great light hunter and heavy-finisher, and typhon would be the board control monster. With shake off rules, is fling really that bad now, anyway?

Either that, or I'd like to see him changed almost entirely. I don't want "carnivean/angel/seraph +x points" to be what typhon becomes.

[Cervantes690]

Been thinking about this, and this is what I can think of:

Spd 6
Damage 30 (10 Mind, 10 Spirit, 10 Body) see notes on this one.
Reach
Virtuoso
A Limit of 3 initial attacks

Lose the the one point of speed, Gunfighter.

I feel that this would be a better typhon.

On the health, I would leave it the same if Typhon did not lose attacks for lost aspects. But as I do not feel that will not happen, so he does need a boast in his health.

[Nargacuga]

I don't think reach is completely off the table, but rather reach+gunfighter is off the table due to the counter-intuitive rules.


I would not say that Typhon is in its final form. I would suggest not holding your breath for Reach and sprays while engaged..

That said, we need to do some testing of alternate builds.


MK 2.1 version with overtake

MK 2.0 version with virtuoso instead of gunfighter

Any of the above with MK1 "Fling" instead of Critical pitch

Any of the above with "Snacking" instead of Critical Pitch


We have more time, lets use it.

[Chad]

Actually, there's very few types of troops, and mainly those from Cryx, that the Deathjack can be 'pinned down' by. It takes heavy jacks to do that job, and that's discounting the fact that if you try and use two solitary troops to pin it, you still have the option of using it's Necromancy to channel the one offensive spell that every Cryxian Warcaster is usually going to have to wipe out one of them.The purpose of a 'pin down' is to help dictate the actions of that model. In this case, you talk about using th DJ's focus in order to free himself from this inconvenient but ultimately inneffective strategy. The same is true of Megalith to a lesser degree, but also very true of Mulg because of snacking. The behemoth has a similar problem in that he can be somewhat mitigated by this same tactic. He has no reach either, and he can't target the models engaging him. His only saving grace is high ARM, but then again, he also costs 13 points. The thunderhead has the same difficulty. He can Energy pulse, but then you've committed him to standing still and killing two, maybe 3 troopers. As does the Avatar. Molik Karn has reach but to free himself, he must commit him to dealing with these two models.

A competent player should be able to predict something like this happening. It's not a realistic possibility until you've already mixed things up a bit and there should be more resources with which to aid a 'locked down' Typhon. Given the differences in the relative threat ranges of most troops, and Typhon's newer SPD stat, this kind of scenario could be avoided until it doesn't matter anymore.

The Deathjack is approximately two million times better than Typhon.I love the Deathjack, and he's still fantastic, but I think he's only about a million times better than Typhon.

The problem is that the Deathjack has better ARM always, heals more with Rendering, and has access to abilities that allow him to ignore free strikes.Unfortunately this is the problem with comparing cross faction. The Deathjack and cryx rely heavily upon melee in their jacks, so they need means to free them from sticky situations like this.

Other than necromancy, the Deathjack is melee only. He is tougher, gets out of scrapes better, but he is also wholly different than Typhon, even moreso than the carni.

Our methods of freeing typhon would be no less necessary, just different.


Ultimately, the question is - are three moderate-POW, poor-RAT sprays that you can charge with that amazing, when the model they come on is so fragile, and relatively easy to shut down from being able to do -anything-?In the game I see, POW 14 on a spray is at the high end of the spectrum, and RAT 5 on a ranged capable beast seems not low but average. On a 'spray' it seems pretty solid. Also, you cannot discount 1) the ability to boost and 2) the boosts brought by our casters. 6 of them can directly affect Typhons hit and/or damage.


I didn't mention the reflex damage, did I? But, yes, I would always rather spiny growth over excessive healing. And almost always prefer tenacity over spiny growth. but, then again, I always have a shredder in my lists.I avoid things like 'always' just because of it's absolute nature, but I would probably rank them similarly.

As far as damage potential, yeah, there is only a slight difference. one has a higher miss chance, but the other less damage by a tiny bit. I think I wasn't calculating it quite right in my head. I'd still take the carnivean, though, over typhon, for that role just about every time. Both auto hit on a KD'd target. Both hit the same with rapport, though the carnie gains a huge boost in performance. Incite and manifest destiny and all our other buffs put them in very similar conditions: dice +8 and +9 make so little difference save for the 'caster level' of def.Only the knockdown scenario equates the two. Since seraph slams are a thing of the past what, other than Thagrosh's Scourge, do you imagine is going to be used to knock down your opponents?

I feel I need to point out that when the disparity between their ability to hit was pointed out, while admitting you didn't calculate it right, you then stated a preference for the carni and moved the goalpost by reframing the parameters - it became knocked down targets and Rapport with Rhyas. (Rapport by the way is better on the carni for melee and better on Typhon for ranged, since Typhon has more sprays with which to play).

I disagree. Both are flexible models with spray's, high mobility, rather potent offensive melee punch, and rocking sculpts :p.The carni's spray isn't what you bring him for, it's longer but lower RAT, and there is only one. Their mobility advantages are different (one has greater speed, the other all terrain). Melee power is one of the similarities I pointed out.

I wouldn't call typhon 'durable' the way I would call a carnivean or protector 'durable.' Both models are tough to kill, no doubt, but their staying power still isn't exactly legendary.I think you are discounting DEF in the same way you discounted their MAT difference. It doesn't seem like much but avoiding the hit is as important as reducing damage (where possible of course).

Now, neither is going to be avoiding 10 man CRAs anytime soon, but the difference is there. Mulg, for example, misses just over 8% of unboosted swings against the carni, while against typhon it misses just over 27% of the time (over one in 4). It is far more likely to generate muliple misses on Typhon than on the Carni.

You cannot talk of durability strictly in terms of ARM, it is only one factor. DEF 13 on a heavy should not be discounted.


I'm not willing to gamble a twelve point model trying to get a critical on a charge attack, just to spray down infantry. Of course, if he charges the infantry, this becomes, basically, a non issue, though generally speaking, the charge target will need to be the most important choice: Something typhon can kill in one hit, but big enough and properly positioned enough to get the right angle/range, right? At least 360 Vision helps.Well, this was your scenario. It's not how I would use Typhon either, I was just pointing out that with regards to the carni vs. typhon in that scenario it wasn't as different as you think. The crit pitch on typhon seems more like a defensive measure since you cannot rely upon it any more. If you get in engaged with something you can't handle, try to burn it down if you can, but with (potentially) 7 opportunities to throw a model, odds are decent that you'll do it.

Carnie would be damage potential, seraph potent ranged, angel a great light hunter and heavy-finisher, and typhon would be the board control monster. With shake off rules, is fling really that bad now, anyway?Not as bad as it used to be but you have to consider synergy here. The throw may or may not turn out the way you want it, but it still allows more potential damage than just the model thrown. He throws 6" with the potential scatter of 3" more, (+1 more if he has draconic blessing or forced evolution). A knockdown beast makes a makes a decent Hoarfrost target. Saeryn can do a lot with filling up your opponents beasts, and any fury they have to use to 'shake' effects makes this worse for the enemy. Thagrosh allows for follow up movement (you can move away too if you desire) and Vayl has cat and mouse. Meanwhile a knocked down target is incredibly vulnerable to being hit. It also frees up Typhon to spray at whatever it wants (provided it still has initial attacks).

Typhon can troop sweep better than the Seraph, and the POW on his spray is better. The new formation rules make strafe somewhat weaker as most troops can widely skirmish.

[Mobile]

I avoid things like 'always' just because of it's absolute nature, but I would probably rank them similarly.

Almost always. Point on absolutes, though.



Only the knockdown scenario equates the two. Since seraph slams are a thing of the past what, other than Thagrosh's Scourge, do you imagine is going to be used to knock down your opponents?
I feel I need to point out that when the disparity between their ability to hit was pointed out, while admitting you didn't calculate it right, you then stated a preference for the carni and moved the goalpost by reframing the parameters


Raek is a fantastic knockdown model. 3 fury allows him to leap in with a boosted headbutt. This will flatten almost any medium or large base. Regardless, I still think the carnivean rules melee over typhon, with or without our buffs. Perhaps he doesn't rule it as hard as typhon without buffs, but once we start buffing the pair, carnivean tends to win out.Perhaps it is simply my experience talking.


The carni's spray isn't what you bring him for, it's longer but lower RAT, and there is only one. Their mobility advantages are different (one has greater speed, the other all terrain). Melee power is one of the similarities I pointed out.

True, but not 100%. I always had the carniveans assault in mind when I picked him, even back in mk1, when it replaced the bite. Generally, I prefer to lay into a target with a pow 18 bite, but his ability to hit support troops can't be ignored. He may only be able to hit def 11 on average with his spray without help...



I think you are discounting DEF in the same way you discounted their MAT difference. It doesn't seem like much but avoiding the hit is as important as reducing damage (where possible of course).
You cannot talk of durability strictly in terms of ARM, it is only one factor. DEF 13 on a heavy should not be discounted.

Oh, I am aware of his higher defense. Being that most of my opponents are warmachine, and typical jack mat is 7 or higher, it seems liek misses on any heavy are few and far between. Typhon benefits much more from tenacity than the carnie, because 14 def is a huge jump over 12. It begins to ask for players to boost hits or aim debuffs. Of course, this prevents him from having excessive healing, but again, I can rarely think of a situation where I'd prefer ex-heal over tenacity. On any model, warlock, beast, or otherwise.



Not as bad as it used to be but you have to consider synergy here. The throw may or may not turn out the way you want it, but it still allows more potential damage than just the model thrown. He throws 6" with the potential scatter of 3" more, (+1 more if he has draconic blessing or forced evolution). A knockdown beast makes a makes a decent Hoarfrost target. Saeryn can do a lot with filling up your opponents beasts, and any fury they have to use to 'shake' effects makes this worse for the enemy. Thagrosh allows for follow up movement (you can move away too if you desire) and Vayl has cat and mouse. Meanwhile a knocked down target is incredibly vulnerable to being hit. It also frees up Typhon to spray at whatever it wants (provided it still has initial attacks).

Actually, the more I think about it, the less I think flign really helps. It would be nice, and would allow Typhon alot more offensive ability, but unless you kill the target thrown, any player worth his salt would probably burn the focus or fury to kill Typhon by shaking off the KD and then advancing or charging.



Typhon can troop sweep better than the Seraph, and the POW on his spray is better. The new formation rules make strafe somewhat weaker as most troops can widely skirmish.
I'll agree with this. Typhon, though, is generally more vulnerable. Shorter range tied to difficulty navigating terrain means he has to finish the target entirely, or, as above, he gets charged. No model operates in a vacuum, so this is where your army comes in to support him, I assume.

Maybe I am simply spoiled, but I don't care for the beastie as current. Perhaps I should ask one of my opponents to play a more 'infantry machine' list so that I can see how typhon does against a real horde. You obviously have a better grasp on ol'three head than I do, and you are slowly convincing me that I might just be bitter that he's not the most butt kicking guy on the block.

Being a Menoth player as well, it's hard to accept that i can't figure out/dislike my unique for the faction that got me into the game, when the Avatar is just so excellent, and so easy to understand and use.

[alchahest]

Raeks still cannot headbutt larger based models, this hasn't changed since the WM MK II rules were finalised. you cannot headbutt larger bases. They are, however, excellent at headbutting and slamming medium or small bases!

[Neutralyze]

raeks are good at a couple things. headbutting models and to a lesser extent minor infantry help. they can also make good slammers.

[PPS_MrSoles]

I don't think reach is completely off the table, but rather reach+gunfighter is off the table due to the counter-intuitive rules.

Reach is completely off the table.

It is not necessary and is not the the direction we want to go with Typhon. He has three spray attacks and the ability to use them in melee. That is a lot more compelling than adding Reach to him.

[amphoterik]

Reach is completely off the table.

It is not necessary and is not the the direction we want to go with Typhon. He has three spray attacks and the ability to use them in melee. That is a lot more compelling than adding Reach to him.

Who won? Just curious...

[Hjelmen0]

Thanks for the definite statement, Mr. Soles.

Let's work with it, now that we know that it's not a viable suggestion.

Overtake looks like a good option, one which I really like. It lets Typhon either spray like crazy, or kill a model and get a little more movement for the next spray or another melee attack. It fits the theme nicely, and it doesn't make Typhon overpowered.

To the test-mobile! *swoosh*

[amphoterik]

I am still all for bringing back fling. I loved that ability and it gave soooooo much utility

[Loveless]

Typhon's offensive power is pretty solid. One of his themes is spraying things to death at whim - and he has three of them, which is unique enough to warrant his character status. Interesting ideas that have popped up (imo):
1) Ride-by Attack of sorts
2) Overtake
3) RAT +1

His second theme is regeneration. As Typhon has the tendency to be a bit squishy for 12 points, it may be worthwhile to try boosting this a bit. Most options have already been mentioned, but for a bit of a recap:
1) Regeneration to [d6]
2) Add Snacking
3) Increase ARM so he doesn't die quite as quickly.

I don't think any of those ideas are horrible - he probably only needs a little push to get up to feeling "just right" at 12.

[PPS_MrSoles]

Who won? Just curious...

I lost two and won one. New Xerxis is tough! Managed to take out new Moordikaar. New Zaal got me.

[Loveless]

I lost two and won one. New Xerxis is tough! Managed to take out new Moordikaar. New Zaal got me.

Hordes Mk. II Fieldtest Update 3: Enter the Skorne!

I'm hoping you guys haven't swung to the opposite extreme on the Skorne...why is Xerxis ARM 30? Good Lord...

:p jk

[Voltimor]

What about leave the heads and sprays what they are and give Typhon DEF 13 and ARM 19 and when he kills living enemy models (in melee) it heals D6 damage and make the animus like it can give the healing ability to other models ? maybe abit OP but is just a thought.

[alchahest]

Soles, do you have an opinion on some kind of combined spray to tackle harder targets with?

[RuneGrey]

Reach is completely off the table.

It is not necessary and is not the the direction we want to go with Typhon. He has three spray attacks and the ability to use them in melee. That is a lot more compelling than adding Reach to him.

If this is going to be the direction you want to go with him, then I - and I hope a few other people here - would probably like to know just what use you want to see Typhon doing on the table and what sort of role you want to see him playing. As for me, this completely destroys the reason why I have Typhon on the table - the sprays were a nice bonus for me, and were occasionally useful for eliminating enemy infantry when none of Typhon's original prey were in reach. But Typhon's main purpose for being in my army is a fast, reliable way of wrecking heavily armored jacks. The Angelius can't do the same job, and up until recently the Carnivean was still lacking in the MAT department (and still is compared to the sorts of things I use to kill jacks in my Cryx army). Typhon was there because he could generate 6-7 POW 17 melee bites, with the chance of throwing a jack on a critical and knocking another one down, forcing my opponent to bleed resources to continue the assault on my army.

There's no reason for me to even put him on the table if I want to deal with infantry. There are troops for that. There are Shredders for that. There is, if I feel like being contrary to conventional wisdom, the Scather for that. All of them cost less than Typhon. It's not the fact that we're losing reach (although not having reach on a 12 point model sting really badly, especially since I'll have to risk knick my paint job up to wedge him in close enough with a lot of other models to properly show his positioning - and I've expressed my feelings in my feedback on his loss of combat control range and his ability to tie up multiple target, which is just as important) that is bad, it's the fact that we're losing it because you think the sprays are where the show is at.

Basically, if this is the reason why we're taking Typhon along - for his ranged ability - then I believe the model needs to undergo a much more drastic redesign. I've made a few comments on what I feel some good changes would be elsewhere, but summarizing here along two particular paths:

1. Durability remains the same - decreases.
* Return of non-Critical Pitch (Necessary as a highly defensive measure, as Typhon greatly loses his freedom to engage with one model in base to base contact with him).
* A special attack similar to the Thunderhead's that shows Typhon engulfing a large (huge!) area around him in fire. (The main beef I have on the focus on sprays is the simple fact that a clever player can easily turn sprays into 1 target attacks with the new positioning rules. Typhon is already having to work against a low RAT - it might be a flat, more or less unchangable RAT, but it's still 5 - and I think that if you're going to get him in close to deal with a lot of troops, you should have a reliable way to do so).
* The ability to buy more spray attacks outside of his initial allotment.

2. Durability (armor and health boxes) increases.
* Not a lot of suggestions here, as a major increase in survivability would make it easier for him to get tied up in major combat situations and allow his animus to heal him / shrug off heavy blows. The biggest thing of course is:
* Change Animus to 'hit by' as opposed to 'damaged by'. Typhon is board control at this point, and it should be something that scares low power troops - already, people will probably just send big beasts / jacks to deal with him, so all this does is discourage troop swarms from mobbing him or your warcaster.
* Add 'Terror' or 'Abomination' to his abilities.

In both cases:
* Continuous effect : Fire should be added to his sprays. This may be unique to my meta, but we see a LOT of shield walls and super high armored units. I've actually see Typhon's sprays leave 3/4 of a shield walled unit alive when I managed to breath on the whole thing, and he doesn't have enough fury to boost against all of them. Adding fire to these attacks at least helps to ensure that the opponent has some reason to worry about sending in heavily armored troops, and gives Typhon a lingering 'after death' potential for inflicting damage on the enemy, even if he gets obliterated after just 1 turn of sprays.

[PPS_MrSoles]

Soles, do you have an opinion on some kind of combined spray to tackle harder targets with?

Bring a Carnivean? Seriously guys, this thing spreads damage and chaos like few (nothing?) else. It is not intended to be the be all, end all of Legion warbeasts. It is very resilient as it is and is incredibly powerful. If you need to tackle a harder target, charge it. This thing has a base of three POW 17 melee attacks. That is pretty good for dealing with hard targets...

Edited to add: Every model has its place in the army, even the character warbeasts. We like to avoid redundancies so you still have reason to take things like Carniveans. Typhon is solid in melee. Typhon is AWESOME at crowd control.

[alchahest]

cool. I'll be fielding typhon (once I buy him, anyways) simply because eyeless sight + spray is a pretty winning combination for hitting anybody.

[stray_bullett]

Ive been testing alot vs trolls lately, seeing as Im betting all the power players will be picking up a new faction of greenish blue skins come the end of FT. 15" charging dire troll maulers are making heavies a huge liability for me. Hordes seems more like you need to hide your heavies behind your troops to make them worthwhile. I havent ran the angelius much but Im getting alot more mileage from lights than heavies and having a 12 point heavy getting popped from 15" across the battlefield and then having that monster that did it retract another 6(roughly) back towards his deployment (who is also an arc node) is a big blow to the morale.

[Garth]

Ok, no reach for typhon. Good to know.

Now think about something else. Why doesn't the typhon make us happy. I mean seriously, look at him:

Def 13, Arm 17 + his animus, 3 Sprays or 3 pow 17 attacks, speed 7, gunfighter. If someone would give me this numbers I would say: "wow, a cool beast".
I see a real problem with a lot of the ideas here: They would make the typhon stronger. Stronger is not what it needs to be. I mean if it were just about making him stronger we could give him +1 pow, +1 rat, pathfinder, +2 arm and more health boxes. Yeah, then we would play him because he is damn strong. But this is not what the typhon should be in my opinion.

As Mr.Soles said, the typhoon is about spreading damage and chaos. A walking source of destruction. Sprays and bites in 360°. He throws things around, sprays in different directions and can spray even in melee . And this walking source of destruction sounds quite cool to me. And if you cut off one head an other one will follow. It is a regenerating beast, that doesn't die, because it can just heal itself again and again.

Yeah, this is it. I think this is what didn't make me happy all the time. The picture of the monster above is not the typhon. It is something that would be cool to have, but it is not the typhon.

The typhoon can't spray in melee. If you charge a unit and then want to spray you can't. Because a lot of units have reach and he can't shoot at models that have him in 2", but are away from him more than 0.5".
He doesn't regenerate faster than you kill him. He is quite easy to kill. Medium def (this means everyone hits him), medium arm (this means everyone deals damage) and low health.
To the people who think that his animus would be better as an ability: NO. Then he would get arm 19 (Carnivean) and heal, this would be too much ;-). But a few health boxes could be useful. The warpwolf gained them, the carni gained them, why not the typhon ?
And he needs something that lets him shoot models with reach. This is my main problem with him. Oh and I iked the MK I pitch instead of critical pitch, that was cool. But yeah, this could be asked too much ;-).

Garth

[Neutralyze]

Ive been testing alot vs trolls lately, seeing as Im betting all the power players will be picking up a new faction of greenish blue skins come the end of FT. 15" charging dire troll maulers are making heavies a huge liability for me. Hordes seems more like you need to hide your heavies behind your troops to make them worthwhile. I havent ran the angelius much but Im getting alot more mileage from lights than heavies and having a 12 point heavy getting popped from 15" across the battlefield and then having that monster that did it retract another 6(roughly) back towards his deployment (who is also an arc node) is a big blow to the morale.

you learn from your mistakes. it is hte best way to adapt, plain and simple.

[Nargacuga]

Thanks for the clarification Mr. Soles.

Well then...

MKI Fling

Overtake

Fix to Gunfighter or special rule to allow ranged attacks if engaged by models with reach.

I really the idea of being able to make sprays outside of his initial attacks, just chose melee or spray for each attack with a max of 3 sprays per activation minus 1 per lost aspect.(+ Virtuoso rule if it isn't clear in the wording)

I'm also fine with him being a bit squishier but with higher and/or free regen ability. It makes him more unique to be a beast that rapidly heals itself each turn unless you kill it completely.

[alchahest]

I'd like to see him gain immunity to fire.

[wrabbit37]

I'd like to see his animus gain the ability to give Corrosion to any model that damages him. That'd be another great way to spread chaos on the battlefield. Probably overpowered, but man, it'd be fun!

[Neutralyze]

I'd like to see him gain immunity to fire.

feora and efeora would cry.

[alchahest]

not as much as playing legion against legion.

[Hjelmen0]

feora and efeora would cry.

Just like our beasts cry when playing against the Pyre troll and it's damned fire immunity animus?

[Neutralyze]

not as much as playing legion against legion.


legion v legion games were always so boring IMO.

[Loveless]

Why would he have Immunity to Fire?

Let's let him wander around the battlefield with Untyped Sprays so he can kill all those nice units that the other players bring. Although it's not really consistent to give him Untyped damage.

He's our crowd-control beast. That's pretty cool...none of our other Beasts are especially good at that. The Carnivean isn't horrible at it, but he should be off slaughtering heavy targets.

The Seraph is going to be picking off Solos, small units, and Warcasters/Warlocks.

The Angelius is going to deliver killing blows to damaged heavy targets or kill important models.

Typhon looks at the Infantry and says "RAWWWWRRRRRR!!!" at them, then sets them on fire. Then he rebuilds his flesh as things hit him. I actually kind of get the feeling that Excessive Healing should just be an ability on him, but that's probably too strong.

We could also just give him ROF: a lot on his breath weapon and let him go to town with spraying things.

[Neutralyze]

give him what thunderhead has. give him a special action fire pulse or something. i would sayfront arc but that could be an issue due to it being 360.

Thagrosh to typhon- "typhon stop breathing over here! the enemy is that way!"

[wrabbit37]

give him what thunderhead has. give him a special action fire pulse or something. i would sayfront arc but that could be an issue due to it being 360.

Thagrosh to typhon- "typhon stop breathing over here! the enemy is that way!"

Oh, please don't make Legion have a unique beast that I have to worry about killing my own troops with too! Though a lot of the blight-field stuff specifies non-friendly models. Maybe he can have a blight cloud that works similarly.

The more I think of it, though, the more I agree that the best thing for him would be to allow him to spray while engaged and leave him without reach. That clears up a lot of the being engaged by other models with reach issue, and lets him spread the chaos like he's supposed to.

[Zerosoul]

That's disappointing. Our character beast is the only character in the game that can be shut down by two guys with pointy sticks standing four inches apart.

[alchahest]

oh come on. it's not thta bad. and ANY character without reach has the same difficulty. did you know that lylyth can be shut down by two guys with point sticks! and the carnivean! and as far as character beasts/jacks that don't have reach, Megalith, Fire of Salvation, Behemoth, Drago, Cankerworm, Death Jack, Ol' Rowdy, Thunderhead. The thunderhead has a star action that can get it out of this particular COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN situation. but for real, if this is as big a deal as people are trying to make it out to be, don't you think we'd have seen it prior to the Hords MK II field test?


This thing is not as big a problem as you think it is.

[PPS_MrSoles]

give him what thunderhead has. give him a special action fire pulse or something. i would sayfront arc but that could be an issue due to it being 360.

Thagrosh to typhon- "typhon stop breathing over here! the enemy is that way!"

Or... Maybe we'll give him three spray attacks. Don't get greedy.

[blitzmonkey]

I've been pondering different things that could fix Typhon. I think my final conclusion is that he needs to be able to force or something for Enliven. I would have to test it out, but that SCREAMS Typhon to me. I was originally a fan of snacking, but enliven would make it so he does get the one BIG hit against him, but can just mosey on away.

[Hjelmen0]

Don't get greedy.
Too late for that, it seems :|

I would like to ask which role Typhon is supposed to fill? If you could tell us, it might make it easier to suggest something viable as to fill that role better?

[Soulblighter]

If the Typhon wont regain Reach, can you at least fix the Gunfighter rule so the Typhon isnt at a disadvantage against reach models? Its a simple fix really. Pathfinder would be nice also. I dont feel thats being greedy as its more of a staple ability than anything.

[PPS_MrSoles]

That's disappointing. Our character beast is the only character in the game that can be shut down by two guys with pointy sticks standing four inches apart.

I look upon this most perplexing of tactical puzzles and I wonder, "how would I overcome such a complete obstacle to the effectiveness of my warbeast". The mind boggles with such titanically complex issues as you have brought to my attention. I will have to go and consult Sun Tzu and see if there is an answer within the pages of the Art of War.

[wrabbit37]

I would like to ask which role Typhon is supposed to fill? If you could tell us, it might make it easier to suggest something viable as to fill that role better?

Mr. Soles addressed this a bit earlier in the thread:


Bring a Carnivean? Seriously guys, this thing spreads damage and chaos like few (nothing?) else. It is not intended to be the be all, end all of Legion warbeasts. It is very resilient as it is and is incredibly powerful. If you need to tackle a harder target, charge it. This thing has a base of three POW 17 melee attacks. That is pretty good for dealing with hard targets...

Edited to add: Every model has its place in the army, even the character warbeasts. We like to avoid redundancies so you still have reason to take things like Carniveans. Typhon is solid in melee. Typhon is AWESOME at crowd control.

Basically, it sounds like the crowd control/spreading damage aspect of the Typhon is where it should be heading.

[Garth]

3 Spray attacks ? That sounds nice, together with the 3 he already has this would make 6 sprays! I think this could be broken ;-).

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

I don't think that the Typhoon has a problem with dealing damage. He deals damage. He destroys things. And he does this really well. But he doesn't survive long (I can cast the Carniveananimus with my caster on the carni and then let the carni attack...but the typhon animus is rng self).

I don't have a really cool idea for him. But I think his main problem is not dealing damage. It is somewhere else.

[wrabbit37]

3 Spray attacks ? That sounds nice, together with the 3 he already has this would make 6 sprays! I think this could be broken ;-).

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

I don't think that the Typhoon has a problem with dealing damage. He deals damage. He destroys things. And he does this really well. But he doesn't survive long (I can cast the Carniveananimus with my caster on the carni and then let the carni attack...but the typhon animus is rng self).

I don't have a really cool idea for him. But I think his main problem is not dealing damage. It is somewhere else.

Agreed entirely. He can deal the damage. He just can't take the hits. The Carnivean has the armor and health. I like the self-healing of the Typhon. I'd like to see that played up a bit more.

[PPS_MrSoles]

Too late for that, it seems :|

I would like to ask which role Typhon is supposed to fill? If you could tell us, it might make it easier to suggest something viable as to fill that role better?

Dude is a heavy warbeast with SPD 7, 3 attacks (POW 17 melee or 3 POW 14 sprays), that regenerates with ease. He wrecks stuff. A lot of stuff. In entertaining and often overwhelming ways. He has MAT 7 and 4 fury for a punishing 7 melee attacks.

Simply put, his role is to kill everything within reach. No pun intended. As the kids say, he wrecks face.

[Hjelmen0]

Ah, hadn't seen Mr. Soles' edit in that post.

If crowd control and spreading damage is his business, then we know what we're supposed to expect from Typhon. I'm cool with that.

Overtake still sounds like a good idea to me, but as suggested previously, Snacking or possibly Regenerate [d6], could help him survive his crowd controlling, instead of being cut to ribbons...

EDIT: Thank you, Mr. Soles. That explains it nicely. Overtake might be a little "out of focus" then ... wonder what would could bring Typhon to that fabled "sweet spot" ...

[Necra-Chi]

Reading the thread since I last posted my list of things I'd like to see (pick one, doesn't need all of them)

1. Special attack combo strike, can combo all available initial melee attacks and adds POW for each initial.
2. Special attack incinerate, if it has all three aspects it can combo all initial ranged attacks into a single POW 16 4"AOE with fire damage that causes continuous fire to models hit, that remains in play doing POW12 fire damage and continuous fire to anything that moves through it or ends its activation in it.
3. Snacking

I choose these only for fluff reasons but options 2 and 3 adress surviveability quite well, and I particularly like option 2 because it sort of fits the persistent template theme we've got going on. Too much board control maybe? It would open up an inteesting way to play I think.

[RuneGrey]

I'm a little curious about where the whole 'crowd control' and 'slaughtering infantry' thing is coming from.

The biggest problem with sprays is that either you are going to be hitting a large number of very highly armored shield wall troops, or you are going to be hitting 2 or 3 higher defense troops who don't have the armor to take the hit. But Typhon doesn't get to boost all of the attacks due to only having 4 fury, which means that effectively you're probably going to miss half of all defense 12 units, and the number will increase from there.

Given that you tend to see defense 14 or 15 on most stealth units (which Typhon is the biggest threat to if he does connect) that means he'll only kill 1 in 6 that he actually gets a breath on. Sowing chaos? More like making my opponent a little worried...

...unless, of course, we're assuming that he's either A) Aiming or B) has Manifest Destiny / Incite up, or C) both. The model should be able to perform on its own without needing those sorts of buffs. But I've hit entire shield lines before and only killed 2 or 3 models several times with all of Typhon's attacks, due to a combination of needing 8+ on 2d6 to hit and 5+ to kill when they're shield walled.

The loss of reach is a massive nerf - to compare, I've killed 6 or 7 pikemen in melee. Something Typhon can only do if he has reach.

[Hjelmen0]

Out of the three mentioned by Necra-Chi, I'd only ever use no. 3.

The combo-strike would be massive overkill on almost anything, and incinerate would be a situational maybe-once-per-game thing.

Snacking though? I'd take that in half a jiff.

[Garth]

Reading the thread since I last posted my list of things I'd like to see (pick one, doesn't need all of them)

1. Special attack combo strike, can combo all available initial melee attacks and adds POW for each initial.
2. Special attack incinerate, if it has all three aspects it can combo all initial ranged attacks into a single POW 16 4"AOE with fire damage that causes continuous fire to models hit, that remains in play doing POW12 fire damage and continuous fire to anything that moves through it or ends its activation in it.
3. Snacking

I never missed any one of this abilities. I rather have 3 attacks than a combo strike, I never wanted incinerate, but 3(!) sprays, I never missed snacking, but it would fit to the regeneration theme.

The typhoon is ok now. He is NOT too weak. And a special attack wouldn't make him more fun (at least for me). But the problem is:

The typhon should charge in and spray and bite and kill stuff. Now he charges in a unit of reach infantry, sprays at one and then can't attack the rest, because the rest is in 0.6"-2" and so the typhon can do nothing against them. This is a problem for me :-).
Before he charged in and had 7 melee attacks. Normally he charged, sprayed 1-2 times (getting something behind his first targets) and then used his reach to deal even more damage.

This was cool. He could do so much damage. Not to a single model, but just all around.
Now he can't do this

[Necra-Chi]

Well I wouldn't always run Typhon at Speed 7 and access to incinerate. I could swiftly position him to block a choke point with an incinerate 8" ahead. When running will get him charged, walking and incinerating will often be better. The suggested incinerate is also a way to get fire and some damage on hard to hit things without having to actually hit them.

[alchahest]

he's got three initial P+S 17 melee attacks hitting with MAT 7. if you think he's only meant to be good against infantry, you're going to be missing out on alot of the things that make him wonderful. P+S17 is pretty freaking huge, especially with some of the buffs our casters can toss out.

or, if you're in a position where sprays are useful, you have up to three chances to spray whatever you need to.

typhon is /awesome/

[Zerosoul]

I look upon this most perplexing of tactical puzzles and I wonder, "how would I overcome such a complete obstacle to the effectiveness of my warbeast". The mind boggles with such titanically complex issues as you have brought to my attention. I will have to go and consult Sun Tzu and see if there is an answer within the pages of the Art of War.

The funny thing is that anything that anything that's remotely in kind to this that I say in response gets me banned.

Edit: Garth pretty much enumerated my problem with Typhon as he stands. Better choose his "crowd control" targets effectively, huh? Since if you kill what you engage and there are still dudes with Reach hanging around you just blew your very expensive warbeast's activation to kill a couple troopers.

[Nargacuga]

Now he can't do this except with absylonia

Fixed that for you~;)

I'll do some testing to see how it works, but on a fluff level, I think that that auto-regen is much more thematic than snacking for Typhon.

[Hjelmen0]

Hyper Regeneration, like on eDoomshaper? That might fit the bill, actually.

Not too crazy since if Typhon really gets stuck in, he can kill several infantry models, snacking for a lot of d3 healing points. That might be a little too much potential healing.

[RoyalAssassin]

All Sun-Tzu sarcasm aside, I think I understand where the disconnect is coming from. It's a variance in valuation of Spray.

There's a point of view that says 3 POW14 sprays are horrificly threatening offense and enough, along with POW17 non-Reach melee, to warrant deploying the model that has them.

There's a point of view that believes sprays are tasty but insufficient, in their own right, to justify the points. I think this is why we're seeing all the offensive-buff suggestions, to try and crank his offense up to something that feels comfortable for the points.

That, I think is where the frustration is coming from. Camp A can't understand why Camp B feels underwhelmed by the game-wrecking effectiveness of three spray attacks. Camp B can't understand why Camp A is so enthralled with sprays. Until that gets sorted out, I'm afraid that Camp B is going to keep offering suggestions and frustrating Camp A. I'm not sure that we can manage any meaningful discourse on Typhon until we can agree on the effectiveness and point-worthiness of spray attacks.

[PPS_MrSoles]

Edit: Garth pretty much enumerated my problem with Typhon as he stands. Better choose his "crowd control" targets effectively, huh? Since if you kill what you engage and there are still dudes with Reach hanging around you just blew your very expensive warbeast's activation to kill a couple troopers.

That is fine. That is the way the game is played. Know what your models can do. Know what your opponent's models can do. Plan accordingly. If your incredibly powerful warbeast gets penned in by your opponent's forces, he did this better than you. The answer is not to create models that are perfect for any situation but to create an interesting gaming experience. Typhon has the capacity to inflict widespread damage and he does it very well. That is why you take him. His role is not "warbeast who always gets around guys with Reach"...

And really, if you melt them with sprays that is a pretty good way around them. Typhon has a threat range of 15" (more with a charge). Most units with reach don't.

[alchahest]

Typhon:

spd 7
mat 7
3 initial melee attacks at P+S 17
you can replace any of those melee attacks with a decent to good spray attack (depending on how you value sprays), even if you are engaging enemies
4 fury for boosting, animus, buying more attacks
regeneration and an animus that mitigates damage
can charge in any direction
critical pitch on it's melee attacks (usefulness is of course dependant on the situation)
and to top it all off, he has some extra synergy with our big bad epic caster pimp daddy thagrosh.

I don't actually have a problem with typhon

[PPS_MrSoles]

That, I think is where the frustration is coming from. Camp A can't understand why Camp B feels underwhelmed by the game-wrecking effectiveness of three spray attacks. Camp B can't understand why Camp A is so enthralled with sprays. Until that gets sorted out, I'm afraid that Camp B is going to keep offering suggestions and frustrating Camp A. I'm not sure that we can manage any meaningful discourse on Typhon until we can agree on the effectiveness and point-worthiness of spray attacks.

It is also important to remember Camp C, the group that thinks this thing is already too powerful and submit feedback telling us so. We have to weigh all the evidence AND make decisions about what we want to see out these models. Typon may not be done yet, but I doubt we will see a significant increase in its offensive capabilities.

[PPS_MrSoles]

All Sun-Tzu sarcasm aside, I think I understand where the disconnect is coming from. It's a variance in valuation of Spray.

And I meant it. Two dudes with sticks... Yikes.

[Necra-Chi]

Ooh. What is Group C's major gripe Mr Soles?

[Loveless]

It is also important to remember Camp C, the group that thinks this thing is already too powerful and submit feedback telling us so. We have to weigh all the evidence AND make decisions about what we want to see out these models. Typon may not be done yet, but I doubt we will see a significant increase in its offensive capabilities.

This is always interesting. There are those who think Typhon is too good for 12 points? Wow, that's impressive.

In the other Typhon thread (yes, there are two), I think we've settled on working on his defensive/regenerative capabilities instead - and even that may not need much work.

[Defenstrator]

Bring a Carnivean? Seriously guys, this thing spreads damage and chaos like few (nothing?) else. It is not intended to be the be all, end all of Legion warbeasts. It is very resilient as it is and is incredibly powerful. If you need to tackle a harder target, charge it. This thing has a base of three POW 17 melee attacks. That is pretty good for dealing with hard targets...
Mr. Soles, I must respectfully disagree on your point of Typhon being very resilient. In my experiance he has a real tendancy to die. In fact it was his constant demise that made me start the thread "Are Warbeasts tough enough?" on the MKII feedback forum. While he does gain durability in the form of Excessive Healing, this is only done at the expense of fury. He's only got 4, so 1 to charge, one to boost to hit, and he's done. So his durability is at the direct expense of his damage out put. This isn't like the Carnivean whose animus can be cast by the warlock, and is normally how my Carnivean ends up with it. I rarely have Excessive Healing on Typhon, unless he is simply too far away for the warlock or a Shredder to cast a defensive buff and for some reason I have fury left over.

Now having played some games with Typhon and put a bit of thought into it I find I have a new issue, which is that Typhon is in the odd position of being able to shoot people up to 8" away from himself as long as he is standing next to some one, but not if they are an inch away holding a stick. Even if Typhon is not getting reach back, I would still ask that Gunfighter have it's range increased so that he may shoot anyone he is engaging or is engaged with. The following is my well reasoned argument why this should be so.

"Well, here comes that monster thingy."
"Thai-fon, they call it."
"Really? Why's that?"
"Don't know. Maybe it's foreign?"
"Could be. Sure haven't seen the like around here before. Got to say, he looks plenty mean, spraying fire around like that."
"Sure does. He's got a weakness though."
"Well that's a relief. Wasn't looking forward to getting barbaqued."
"Yeah, apparently it doesn't like it when you poke it with sticks."
"Poke it with sticks?"
"Yeah. At arms legth of course. If you do it right next to it he'll still cook you up."
"At arms length? What difference does it make?"
"Not sure really. I just know that if you hold the stick at arms length he won't breath fire on you, or anyone else actually."
"No fire at all?"
"None. But like I said, it has to be arms length. If you get close to him he'll breath it all over you, and everyone behind you."
"What, he'll shoot all the blokes behind you as well?"
"Yeah."
"Well why doesn't he do it when you're holding the stick at arms length? I mean the flames still going to hit you and a bunch of fellahs behind you."
"It sure would. But he just doesn't do it. I asked Pendrake about it and he thinks it's one of those mental whatsnames. Psycho-gel I think he called it."
"Well I'll pass the word. This could be easier than I thought."

[Nargacuga]

I really appreciate the assistance you are giving with FT Mr. Soles.

This was one of the things that people really wanted to see with the WM FT. It helps us tremendously that you are giving us parameters to work within as well as sharing the vision behind certain models so that we can give the most helpful feedback.

That said, I suspect that the Typhon in particular is a causing a bit of a stir both internally as well as in the FT community at large to necessitate the amount of attention it's getting.

I'll be testing the MK2.1 version tonight and tomorrow with the MKI Fling instead of Crit Pitch to see how it works. I really liked that aspect of it in MKI and I think others did as well.

If all goes well, I'll put feedback in on it this weekend

[PPS_MrSoles]

Ooh. What is Group C's major gripe Mr Soles?

I am not going to go much into that because the acquisition of feedback is not helped by providing examples for counterfeedback. However, I will say it has to do with Typhons damage output, especially where softer targets are concerned.

You guys are about to get a new update. In it you will see that Typhon got +1 RAT. That is it for now. After a week or two of feedback, we will revisit this model and see if we feel it needs further modification.

[Necra-Chi]

That was funny. Where the part where Typhon puts up excessive healing so a free strike won't take out an aspect and eats those fellows anyway.

Mr Soles, would it be more appropriate to focus on defensive ability then, and if so will that come at the cost of some offensive ability?
How do you feel about snacking? And if it must cost something, sprays reduced to POW 13.

WOW that's a lot of RAT!

[RoyalAssassin]

It is also important to remember Camp C, the group that thinks this thing is already too powerful and submit feedback telling us so.

I hadn't actually seen anything out of Camp C - I can't see the feedback, of course, but I hadn't seen any volume of complaints that Typhon was overpowered and needing some downward tuning. I believe it, completely - the playerbase is large enough that any given model will draw complaints from someone. The complaint that the Deathstalker was overpowered was a real eye-opener. I don't know how widespread Camp C is (obviously), but it's also possible that people are so tied up complaining about Kromac and the Feral Warpwolf that they just can't make time to write about Typhon. :)


And I meant it. Two dudes with sticks... Yikes.

In the interest of not getting grounded, I'll limit my response to this:

It's not that I can't solve the problem. It's the fact that the problem is there at all. I don't think Typhon's offense is so crippling that defensively, he should require babysitters to handle two little dudes with sticks.

[Hjelmen0]

In it you will see that Typhon got +1 RATCool! Thanks for the pre-update-update :D

[Yertle4]

Ooh. What is Group C's major gripe Mr Soles?
That Typhon Murder Death Kills by accident.

[Aedric]

Personally I would be happy if he could ignore people who are engaging him when spraying.

Sure I'd love for him to have overtake or something similar. But I'd be satisfied enough to actually field him with the ability to spray anytime.

Alternatively a point decrease.

[PPS_MrSoles]

In the interest of not getting grounded, I'll limit my response to this:

It's not that I can't solve the problem. It's the fact that the problem is there at all. I don't think Typhon's offense is so crippling that defensively, he should require babysitters to handle two little dudes with sticks.

I'm getting lazy, so rather than just rewording:

That is fine. That is the way the game is played. Know what your models can do. Know what your opponent's models can do. Plan accordingly. If your incredibly powerful warbeast gets penned in by your opponent's forces, he did this better than you. The answer is not to create models that are perfect for any situation but to create an interesting gaming experience. Typhon has the capacity to inflict widespread damage and he does it very well. That is why you take him. His role is not "warbeast who always gets around guys with Reach"...

And really, if you melt them with sprays that is a pretty good way around them. Typhon has a threat range of 15" (more with a charge). Most units with reach don't.

[RoyalAssassin]

Personally I would be happy if he could ignore people who are engaging him when spraying.

I'd be happy even if he were restricted to spraying the things engaging him. I'm fine if they can dictate target selection. It'd also make him a little cleaner - 0-.5", flamethrower good, .6-2.0", flamethrower off, 2.1-8.0", flamethrower good again?

[Garth]

Just for people complaining about problems with the typhon:

One problem for me always was def 13 infantry with reach (IFP for example or TFG). He needed an 8 to hit them and a 5 to kill them. This changed to a 7 to hit them, thanks to +1 rat.
For me this sounds good. I wlll test it and see if it works. But it sounds like it could. It is not the great change I wanted, but it is something that might work.

The main difference between typhon and Carni is that the typhon is better at range. And here +1 rat really helps.

[Zerosoul]

That is fine. That is the way the game is played. Know what your models can do. Know what your opponent's models can do. Plan accordingly. If your incredibly powerful warbeast gets penned in by your opponent's forces, he did this better than you. The answer is not to create models that are perfect for any situation but to create an interesting gaming experience. Typhon has the capacity to inflict widespread damage and he does it very well. That is why you take him. His role is not "warbeast who always gets around guys with Reach"...

And really, if you melt them with sprays that is a pretty good way around them. Typhon has a threat range of 15" (more with a charge). Most units with reach don't.

Typhon before was perfect for every situation? -Really-? Because I still got plenty of use out of my Carniveans and Angelii and Seraphs and on and on and on. Typhon with Reach, or even with some ability to deal with a guy standing .6" away without a babysitter, was never the perfect beast, because even back in Mk. I he died to the first warbeast or warjack coming along (NOTE: THAT IS A BIT OF EXAGGERATION DESIGNED TO MAKE A POINT ABOUT A MODEL'S CAPABILITIES).

I am of the opinion that Privateer greatly overvalues a number of things. Sprays are among them, particularly for Legion. Eyeless Sight already gives a lot of the benefits that a spray gives you. Yes, it is nice being able to nail models you couldn't normally see even with Eyeless Sight. But as a Legion player it is hardly difficult for me to remove individual models that are blocking LoS, so that's a pretty situational ability. And once my opponents realize that hey, Typhon can spray their caster's face clean off if they're not careful about positioning, it's generally a moot point anyway. It's not that three sprays aren't potentially devastating. They are. But once your opponent gets wise then your sprays aren't nearly as impressive. Especially given Typhon's poor RAT (which is apparently getting addressed, so good on that), squishy nature (he's a Slayer that's immune to plinking defensively) and low Fury (which is almost always half-used for his animus anyway).

I don't think I've been especially unreasonable in this thread or in general, but if I have, I apologize. I am -very- passionate about Typhon. He is the model that finally tipped me over into playing Legion, the faction that I've found an awful lot of enjoyment in playing. I want him to be amazing. That doesn't mean I want him to be broken, but I want to be able to field him and not have that nagging voice in the back of my head that says I'd have been better off with a Carnivean or Angelius. He's not there yet. I hope he will be with the incoming changes. That's all.

[Yertle4]

Sprays are gold in Mk 2. Gold!

[Chad]

I look upon this most perplexing of tactical puzzles and I wonder, "how would I overcome such a complete obstacle to the effectiveness of my warbeast". The mind boggles with such titanically complex issues as you have brought to my attention. I will have to go and consult Sun Tzu and see if there is an answer within the pages of the Art of War.Dude. This is exactly what I think (with all the dripping sarcasm), yet refrain from saying.


Typhon with Reach, or even with some ability to deal with a guy standing .6" away without a babysitter, was never the perfect beast, because even back in Mk. I he died to the first warbeast or warjack coming along (NOTE: THAT IS A BIT OF EXAGGERATION DESIGNED TO MAKE A POINT ABOUT A MODEL'S CAPABILITIES).If you need exaggeration to over emphasize your point, then your point likely has less merit than you think.

Back it up with reliable data.

Yertle - I agree 100% sprays are fantastic now.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

+1 Rat you say?

intersting...

I suggest 3 things then to the Typhon...

1. Overtake... fluff wise and play wise this things like to destroy anything in its path. its Ravnous (no pun here lol). Over take fits it both fluff and ruleswise and is a middle ground for a lot of group A complaints vs group B.

2. Blood Creation... Ok its silly it doesn't have it. I realize everyone says blah blah it has a got its own mind. But its also got part of Everblight in it. Being part of everblight, the fact it has a affinity with thagrosh speaks volumes here about its loyalties on the field. Thier should at least!! be a rule in affinity thagrosh that the Typhon cannot frenzy on thagrosh.

3. Abomination - We are talking about a Warbeast thats Totaly 100% unnature... a 3 headed Carnivean with a shard of Everblight in it (mix with a dash of Pyrolific). Tell me this thing doesnt strike fear into the hearts of enemy troopers near it. Its a mini dragon hell bend on destruction :eek: I wouldn't want to be anywere near it. (and Im sure it must have some kind of blight field as well)