MKII Force Books and Prime

[Dark Fledgling]

First of all I am anxiously awaiting the Cygnar Forces of warmachine book. So much so that I have already begun looking around online for somewhere to preorder it from. In my searching I discovered in addition to the force books, a book entitles WARMACHINE: Prime Mk II.

This worries me. I was under the impression that I would only need the Force book in order to play, getting all the updated Mk II rules in addition to all the cygnar models (including the new ones). After seeing Prime Mk II advertised I am worried that my force book will NOT contain all the information I need to play, and that in order to really get into Mk II I will need to buy an even bigger more expensive book, simply for the rules.

So my question, privateer, forumites, what exactly will be in the Force book, and what exactly will be in the Prime book, and what will I need to start playing again.

For the record, I ask only because I am a poor college student with very little money. While I love this game enough to indeed spend $90 on books and do so gladly, my funds would not allow me to do so.

-DF

[Khador247]

I would highly recommend Prime MKII. It is going to be the rulebook. The forces book will just be about your faction. You don't really NEED it per se. All you really need is your faction deck of cards. Of course I certainly recommend the force book when you get the scratch.

If money is really tight you can print the rules and your model rules for free online. I can tell you though that I can't wait for the cards. Shuffling through all of these paper cards is a bit of a pain.

FYI, the MKII rulebook is being released January 6. The faction decks are being released January 20.

[Azurath]

Pretty much what the previous poster said. If you were only gonna get one book, Prime Mk II is probably the more important one. The Cygnar book should be pretty much identical in range of content to the Retribution book.

[Dark Fledgling]

I think I was not clear. I have been playing Mk II all along for months now since the info was released. I also look forward to the faction decks for new cards (and so I don't need to use those paper print outs). I have the rules downloaded as well as all the updated model information.

But from the way you guys speak it sounds as if the core rules (things such as power attacks, how to roll dice, cav rules, measuring control areas) will not be in the force book but only in the prime Mk II book.

I also do not have the retribution book and so cannot compare the two. That being said what IS going to be in the new force books and what will be in prime? The force books will obviously have all new artwork and model rules. Will they also contain a whole bunch of fluff following the end of legends? A little fluff? No fluff? Painting guide? Example Lists? Cool Pictures? etc.

And vice versa, Prime Mk II will obviously contain all the core rules information, but will IT contain any fluff? what factions will it be about? again etc etc.

I just wish to know what I'm buying. I can only get one to start and will not be able to afford the other for quite some time and so I want to get the most bang for my buck. A big draw for me is the fluff (which I love to read) as well as the new model rules which will be in the force book only. Other questions are, will the new models, IE, the new warcasters, jacks and units from the force books, have their cards present in the faction decks?

Again thanks in advance.

-DF

[Valander]

But from the way you guys speak it sounds as if the core rules (things such as power attacks, how to roll dice, cav rules, measuring control areas) will not be in the force book but only in the prime Mk II book.

That's correct. Core rules in Prime Mk II not in the Forces books.

Unfortunately, we don't have concrete details on the rest of your questions regarding what fluff is in what and so on. We can assume that Prime will have a general history and fluff, and it's been stated it will have some "basic" army lists (probably similar to what was in old Prime) for each army. The Forces books will have all the current models for the faction, most likely expanded fluff, and new stuff, too.

[TimVanBoening]

What Valander said.


The Forces Of... books won't have rules, it will have (if they're indeed like the Retribution book) the history of Cygnar, how the military works, different regiments and such. There will also be some fluff story, and also the stats of all the Cygnar models released so far.


Simple description

Prime MKII = Rules and most likely some fluff
Forces of Warmachine Blah Blah Blah = History, fluff and stats of models



yeah, I totally just repeated what was already said...

[thecsharian]

@the OP: Just by the forces of Warmachine:Cygnar book, and use the downloaded rulebook.

What you assumed is wrong, but that doesn't mean you have to change your plans at all.

[Blaque]

Prime MkII will have the core rules (cavalry, warjacks, building armies, terrain), the original models usually in Prime (ie, for Cygnar, Haley, Stryker, Caine, Chargers, Journeyman Warcasters, ect.), plus the new heavy warjack.

Forces of [Faction] books will have all of the the models for that faction from Prime to Legends (including reprinting the Prime book stuff), plus a new warcaster and miscelaneous other things like the new light warjacks, units and solos. It'll also have the Tiered army lists, painting galleries and fluff.

We have known this since April abouts. Even the "Has all the models" thing. But as ntoeda bove, the core rules are for now available downloadable as PDFs. So if you just want your Cygnar stuff, grab that. You can get Prime later. Hell, Prime is out a whole month earlier if you can budget around that.

And stuff.

[Dark Fledgling]

Prime MkII will have the core rules (cavalry, warjacks, building armies, terrain), the original models usually in Prime (ie, for Cygnar, Haley, Stryker, Caine, Chargers, Journeyman Warcasters, ect.), plus the new heavy warjack.

Forces of [Faction] books will have all of the the models for that faction from Prime to Legends (including reprinting the Prime book stuff), plus a new warcaster and miscelaneous other things like the new light warjacks, units and solos. It'll also have the Tiered army lists, painting galleries and fluff.

We have known this since April abouts. Even the "Has all the models" thing. But as ntoeda bove, the core rules are for now available downloadable as PDFs. So if you just want your Cygnar stuff, grab that. You can get Prime later. Hell, Prime is out a whole month earlier if you can budget around that.

And stuff.

Thanks, that was pretty much exactly the stuff I wanted to know. Didnt know the original prime model rules would be in Mk II prime. Also, do we know if this will include new fluff ala Prime remix?

Also, with the models being done that way in Mk II prime it seems like PP would eventually rerelease escalation-legends in Mk II format. That is, with updated rules on all 4 of the factions, and the fluff from the story line so that new players who started with Mk II can do the whole, book by book thing adding new models and adding to the story as they go.

Would be interesting if they did that, probably wouldn't sell a gazillion copies as there would not be anything REALLY new in the books but I know when I started out, getting the information on all the factions models and the next part of the story was a big appeal to me and would be something I recommend for new players.

-DF

[thecsharian]

Also, do we know if this will include new fluff ala Prime remix?Yes


Also, with the models being done that way in Mk II prime it seems like PP would eventually rerelease escalation-legends in Mk II format.Not likely, that's what the forces of warmachine books are for.

[Blaque]

Thanks, that was pretty much exactly the stuff I wanted to know. Didnt know the original prime model rules would be in Mk II prime. Also, do we know if this will include new fluff ala Prime remix?
Very likely. PP doesn't recycle fluff as far as I know. I think there was a statement that consolidating the fluff from the various book sin one place so it doesn't fade away or something is an eventaul gaol.


Also, with the models being done that way in Mk II prime it seems like PP would eventually rerelease escalation-legends in Mk II format. That is, with updated rules on all 4 of the factions, and the fluff from the story line so that new players who started with Mk II can do the whole, book by book thing adding new models and adding to the story as they go.
Only Prime is getting revised in this way. Models from Escalation through Legends (and Evoltuion and Metamorphosis) will be in the faction's respective Forces book, as well as the fluff and new stuff. Any fluff in thos ebooks may be available someday elsewhere, but theyw will not be in the current line of actual crunch books that i know of.


Would be interesting if they did that, probably wouldn't sell a gazillion copies as there would not be anything REALLY new in the books but I know when I started out, getting the information on all the factions models and the next part of the story was a big appeal to me and would be something I recommend for new players.

-DF
This is exactly why there is not likely to be such books. Everyone who is an old player who wants them already has them. ANd thsoe old players will get more use out of faction books. It also means new players, who want to get everything fluffwise for just there faction, would have to purchase five books, rather then two, just to get that. It is simply not cost effective.

And stuff.

[Wishing]

Forces of [Faction] books will have all of the the models for that faction from Prime to Legends (including reprinting the Prime book stuff)

Are we totally sure that this is the case? It would make sense to have everything thus far collected together, but it would also seem a bit clumsy for the Prime models to be printed twice so close together. So far I figured that the Forces books would be Escalation - Legends.

[megatron0]

I think they will reprint the prime stuff in both both books, so that starting out players who buy the rulebook canhave a look at the different forces while people who buy the faction books will include everything. If we go by your theory it assumes that PP asumes that you own both the rulebook and the faction book which is not always the case.

[Leatherman]

I'm suprised nobody has made the comparison with 40K's rulebook system.
In 40K there is a core rulebook with the general rules and an overview of each race. In addition to that book you need a codex, a specific army book containing all of the specialised rules and stats for each race plus a load of in-depth fluff.

Warmachine MkII, from what I can tell, will work in very much the same way.

Personally I think this is a better move than having the expansions. This means that any one player (assuming they play only one faction) only needs to purchase 2 books as opposed to 5 as with MkI to get the complete set of rules and stats for their army.

[PaintThrall]

It is a one time move to get all the factions to the same speed. Afterward they are reverting to expansion books with all armies in them

[thecsharian]

It is a one time move to get all the factions to the same speed. Afterward they are reverting to expansion books with all armies in themAnd plastic will only be used for large or high cost models... like bonejacks :p

[Leatherman]

It is a one time move to get all the factions to the same speed. Afterward they are reverting to expansion books with all armies in them

Seriously?

Dammit PP.....

[Arrik]

I have to completely disagree.

The issues with the "codex" system have been done to death.

[megatron0]

Seriously?

Dammit PP.....

i cant believe your upset with this the codex system is **** and flawed in so many places i for one am happy with both the initial force book catch up and then the continued expansion release

[Marius]

Are we totally sure that this is the case? It would make sense to have everything thus far collected together, but it would also seem a bit clumsy for the Prime models to be printed twice so close together. So far I figured that the Forces books would be Escalation - Legends.

It's been confirmed. Somewhere on the old forums. By Doug, if i remember correctly.

[N0rdicNinja]

I'm suprised nobody has made the comparison with 40K's rulebook system.
In 40K there is a core rulebook with the general rules and an overview of each race. In addition to that book you need a codex, a specific army book containing all of the specialised rules and stats for each race plus a load of in-depth fluff.

Warmachine MkII, from what I can tell, will work in very much the same way.

Personally I think this is a better move than having the expansions. This means that any one player (assuming they play only one faction) only needs to purchase 2 books as opposed to 5 as with MkI to get the complete set of rules and stats for their army.


One key difference between the way GW does it and the way PP is doing is the amount of info given. In 40k and Fantasy the core rule books will give you the stats of the all the units for every army, but that's it. You can't actually build a force with the info given inside the core rule books, it's mandatory that you get a Codex or Army Book.

With PP however, the core books will contain all the information necessary to field every unit from every force in MK.I. From special rules to point costs everything will be covered and you can build the vast majority of your army with just that alone. The Force Books are COMPLETELY optional purchases, especially since you get all the rules for a model on the stat card that comes with the model, making the Force Books completely optional, and totally awesome, extras for those of us that like that kind of thing.

I'm a huge fan of the Campaign Book system that PP has in place though, it means that every army is constantly being updated every year and no one has to wait close to a decade to get shiny new toys (looks disgustedly at his Necrons and Witch Hunters sitting in the closet >.>;). And these books are once again completely optional, as you can just straight purchase the new models and get the rules to play them, no book necessary! ^_^ I personally hope PP never abandons this form of updating, it allows everyone to be in sync with each other and gives everyone a reason to be excited when they come out.

<3 PP

[Leatherman]

i cant believe your upset with this the codex system is **** and flawed in so many places i for one am happy with both the initial force book catch up and then the continued expansion release

I was looking at it more from a cost point of view than a game point of view

[Blaque]

Are we totally sure that this is the case? It would make sense to have everything thus far collected together, but it would also seem a bit clumsy for the Prime models to be printed twice so close together. So far I figured that the Forces books would be Escalation - Legends.
This came up I think in April or May. In context, I was specifically trying ot guess page numbers and thought they would have to shave out the Prime models. Then I think a PPS dude (Soles I believe) came and said that, no, they are indeed reprinting everything. My maths failed there. But indeed, it will have all the models, plus new things.


I'm suprised nobody has made the comparison with 40K's rulebook system.
In 40K there is a core rulebook with the general rules and an overview of each race. In addition to that book you need a codex, a specific army book containing all of the specialised rules and stats for each race plus a load of in-depth fluff.
As noted above, you don't need much beyond the book and your cards. The only rules unique to the Forces books will be tiers and models not in the decks (like Trencher Commandos or the new warcasters). So there are a few differences with the Codex system there.


Warmachine MkII, from what I can tell, will work in very much the same way.
The initial launch of MkII will. However, interviews with Soles, DC, Wilson and others have shown that they will return to the previous format after this slew of Forces books. The old foramt worked and it is being done like this simply because it is th emsot cost-effective way to do the MkII rules for the various factions.


Personally I think this is a better move than having the expansions. This means that any one player (assuming they play only one faction) only needs to purchase 2 books as opposed to 5 as with MkI to get the complete set of rules and stats for their army.
Initially, it will be that. But afterwards, they intend to go back to the old format. My guess is that it is easier to develope it all as one or two books rather then 11.

The Core + Forces format is also not very sustainable. Unlike GW, which from my gathering releases a codex or two a year, PP is being very aggressive in getting all of the Forces out this year. This means that unless PP wants to do MkIII in 2011-2012, they need to introduce mdoels some other way and the Forces format is not very good on their stanity, getting something for everyone an dso on. Much easier for 2011 to have a new book with all five WM factions and Mercs and moving from there.

And stuff.

[Red5angel]

Personally I think this is a better move than having the expansions.

More expansions in the future, but I think Privateer has struck a nice balance. They release expansions, and everyone get's toys to play with at the same time. this in my opinion overcomes the so called "codex problem". Eventually they update an army book, or potentially release an army book Part 2 so that everything is consolidated. Sure you might buy a few extra books but Privateers pretty good about stuffing new fluff and art into new books, even in reprinted concepts.

[saxondog]

If money is really tight you can print the rules and your model rules for free online. I can tell you though that I can't wait for the cards. Shuffling through all of these paper cards is a bit of a pain.

FYI, the MKII rulebook is being released January 6. The faction decks are being released January 20.

I haven't played many games recently do to my aversion to all that paper.
Personally don't understand why PP just didn't release the decks and the books at the same time. Oh well, it looks like I'll buy the softcover version from my LGS and advance order the Hardcover and decks I need online.

SFK

[CptCalvinus]

^The decks for each faction are coming out at the same time, so every faction will be up to date January 20th. It is only the FoW books that will be released at a later time.

[Blaque]

I haven't played many games recently do to my aversion to all that paper.
Personally don't understand why PP just didn't release the decks and the books at the same time. Oh well, it looks like I'll buy the softcover version from my LGS and advance order the Hardcover and decks I need online.

SFK
They would print all the Forces books if they could, but can't. Remember that printing is expensive and has a lot of little restriction son qunatity, qulaity and time that need to be taken into account. We get the cards in January. Forces books (optional, mind you) are going to then come in the montsh as they can get them printed-out.

And stuff.

[Morgan Coalburn]

Since the WM and Hordes books are as much IK fluff books as tabletop books for me, I'm more than happy to see books that have something for all parties in them. I've been on the other company's codex train, and though I think many are well done, there is the issue of clearly playing favourites with the codices and an undenieable power creep. With the way PP has gone, the power creep affects all equally, so I'd welcome PP's way to continue.

[Wishing]

This came up I think in April or May. In context, I was specifically trying ot guess page numbers and thought they would have to shave out the Prime models. Then I think a PPS dude (Soles I believe) came and said that, no, they are indeed reprinting everything. My maths failed there. But indeed, it will have all the models, plus new things.

And stuff.

Good to know, thanks.

Regarding the 40k codex format, the main difference between 40k and WM release-wise is that in WM, all the factions* get the same amount of new stuff at nearly the same time. Another difference is that in WM, instead of being redesigned and resculpted, armies grow.

This means two things. Firstly, you couldn't have just one army book for a faction - a few months after the army book was released, they'd release new models for the faction, and the army book wouldn't be complete anymore. They'd have to either have volumes of army books (1, 2, 3...) or keep re-releasing an ever growing single army book, which would end up a massive tome. Secondly, all the army books would have to be released at nearly the same time. This is unwieldy and bad from a marketing standpoint. So as long as WM sticks to the two core differences outlined above (which I can't see them not doing), the old book style is vastly more practical.

* The exception of course being Retribution, but I presume they will fall into a normal release pattern of getting a slot equal to the other factions in each new book from now on.

[Marius]

With PP however, the core books will contain all the information necessary to field every unit from every force in MK.I. From special rules to point costs everything will be covered and you can build the vast majority of your army with just that alone. The Force Books are COMPLETELY optional purchases, especially since you get all the rules for a model on the stat card that comes with the model, making the Force Books completely optional, and totally awesome, extras for those of us that like that kind of thing.

You might want to clarify that. The way i'm reading it is your saying that Prime/Primal MkII (the core books) will contain all the models released in MkI for every faction, which isn't true. Prime (and assumedly Primal) will contain only the models released in the original Prime, plus a new heavy warjack (the third/fourth in the new plastic sets) for Cygnar, Khador, Protectorate and Cryx. The Force books are only optional with regards to the card decks, not the core books.

[admanb]

You might want to clarify that. The way i'm reading it is your saying that Prime/Primal MkII (the core books) will contain all the models released in MkI for every faction, which isn't true. Prime (and assumedly Primal) will contain only the models released in the original Prime, plus a new heavy warjack (the third/fourth in the new plastic sets) for Cygnar, Khador, Protectorate and Cryx. The Force books are only optional with regards to the card decks, not the core books.

Have they actually said that Prime Mk2 is going to have stats? That makes no sense.

[Agamemnon]

I love the books. I also prefer hardback. If I had to purchase 4 books a year that would get a little out of hand quickly. I already feel sick at having to purchase a minimum of 2 books (maybe 5), 4 decks of cards...plus extra singles and new templates. That is just to play the stuff I have. If faction books came out every year I would abandon buying them and just buy models.

Personaly I applaud PP in not having a "codex" system.

Now that I look at it, Jan is going to hurt.....

[PPS_Simon]

Have they actually said that Prime Mk2 is going to have stats? That makes no sense.

Marius is correct.

[Marius]

Have they actually said that Prime Mk2 is going to have stats? That makes no sense.

It does make sense in a way. Prime is meant to be the gateway to the game (after the quick start rules ofc). Having the gateway to the game be just rules makes it less accesable for new players, because they first buy the rulebook and a few models, then have to buy a set of cards or a forcebook, then get compleatly blown over by all the units and rules in said set of cards. Allowing new players to pick up Prime and have a limited selection of models within is just good sense when promoting the game - it allows them to plan and field usable armies, experiancing a bit of everything available (except cavalry) while not having a huge initial monetary outlay or getting overloaded by too much choice.

I'm not sure i explained that well, hopefully you get what i meant:).

Admitidly, from the perspective of a veteran player, having a models stats printed twice within a matter of months in new publications seems a bit weird, but remember it's not really for us veteran players that it's being done.

[FearLord]

It does make sense in a way. Prime is meant to be the gateway to the game (after the quick start rules ofc). Having the gateway to the game be just rules makes it less accesable for new players, because they first buy the rulebook and a few models, then have to buy a set of cards or a forcebook, then get compleatly blown over by all the units and rules in said set of cards. Allowing new players to pick up Prime and have a limited selection of models within is just good sense when promoting the game - it allows them to plan and field usable armies, experiancing a bit of everything available (except cavalry) while not having a huge initial monetary outlay or getting overloaded by too much choice.

I'm not sure i explained that well, hopefully you get what i meant:).

Admitidly, from the perspective of a veteran player, having a models stats printed twice within a matter of months in new publications seems a bit weird, but remember it's not really for us veteran players that it's being done.

It also gives new players a "taste" of what the main armies are about, so they can decide which faction to play and therefore which force book they want to pick up - it is unrealistic to expect new players to buy all the faction books just so that they can decide what they want to get...

[barrel]

Have they actually said that Prime Mk2 is going to have stats? That makes no sense.

Why does that not make sense? Prime and Prime Remix both had model stats. Prime MKII is going to have the same stuff we saw in Prime and Prime Remix (fluff, game rules, model rules) plus the new jack as stated.

Fo(Blank) will have the models from Escalation on for that faction, more fluff, tiers and a few new models (new warcaster, unit, etc).

The faction decks should be available the same day as Prime MK II. You honestly only need the faction deck and Prime at the most. The faction deck is the only "must" by sense you need the new cards.

[N0rdicNinja]

You might want to clarify that. The way i'm reading it is your saying that Prime/Primal MkII (the core books) will contain all the models released in MkI for every faction, which isn't true. Prime (and assumedly Primal) will contain only the models released in the original Prime, plus a new heavy warjack (the third/fourth in the new plastic sets) for Cygnar, Khador, Protectorate and Cryx. The Force books are only optional with regards to the card decks, not the core books.

Thanks for the correction, I actually didn't realize that, good to know.