Gorgers! It's not too late hopefully!

[Ghyrrshyld]

So when I was looking through the Hordes MK II field test rules, I came across this gem:

Carnivore: Target Friendly Model/unit gains +2 to melee attack rolls against living models. When an affected model boxes a lviign model the boxed model is removed from play and this model heals d3 damage points.

How perfect would that be for Gorgers, if slightly tweaked to

Bloodgorge: This model gains +2 speed when charging living enemy models. +2 to Melee damage rolls against damaged living models. When this model boxes a living model the boxed model is removed from play and this model heals d3 damage points.

It would allow for Bloodgorger heavy infantry or cavalry, could stick on Slaughterborn and work well AND be fluffy.

Eat what you kill.

[Jyggdrasil]

...Let it go.

[Ghyrrshyld]

Or... Or... and hear me out because this is a revolutionary idea: You could just not post in the thread if you think it should be let go, and if all you have to contribute is snarky commentary. Plus, stop telling people what to do.

Also, Why? It's a bad product that should be improved. Because as is, they aren't worth the money to make a 10 man unit IMO. Same with the Drudges. Why should we let this go? Is it against the rules or a bad idea to say how things can be improved? Maybe they won't be so against Erratta in MK II, so it's good to get them out there.

Making this unit worth it's purchase helps Privateer Press's bottom line, and faction balance as a whole, because Im finding myself running more Banes and Satyxis and the gorgers sit on my shelf.

[Jiub]

They should be improved. They won't be, because the cards have already been printed with the worthless rules.

[Jyggdrasil]

They are not 'bad'. They simply aren't crazy good vs living models anymore.

And If you don't think they are worth the money, don't buy them new. I am sure some other knee-jerk doom-merchant will be trying to flog a set on Ebay.

[Ghyrrshyld]

They are not 'bad'. They simply aren't crazy good vs living models anymore. They certainly aren't good. At least not as good as 3-4 of our other Less expensive ($) units.

Also, I think the proposed changes wouldn't MAKE them crazy good against living models either. At least not for their point cost.

Also, considering that Stormsmiths supposedly got an arc node that extends their total autohitting lightning range to 20 inches, being good against multiwound living models doesn't sound like a sin to me.

And If you don't think they are worth the money, don't buy them new. I am sure some other knee-jerk doom-merchant will be trying to flog a set on Ebay.
I am certain that Privateer would prefer them being bought new. And so would my local shopkeep.

Alternatively, don't troll my thread please. I understand that you think they are fine,or that we should just accept them as is and that has been noted for the record. If that is all you have, then I say good day sir.

[Jyggdrasil]

Please post a complete response to begin with, or note your subsequent additions as being such.

And FWIW, I think you should accept that the cards have been printed, and let it go.

(Edited to correct confusion as raised in later post)

[amphoterik]

The biggest problem with "bloodgorge" as an ability is that it is really very powerful. +2 speed, damage and healing on top? Granted, I don't have their card in front of me, but they would have to be terrible now for them to get this without a point increase.

[Ghyrrshyld]

I don't understand what "Please post a complete response to being with" means.

Also, stop telling people what to do. Again.

[Tionas]

you do understand that carnivore dosent work like you think it does.

Carnivore works like this: When the (model with carnivore on it) kills a model (ablysonia) heals. I wish i could find DC /soles posting that, but i cant, for the life of me. I'll be back later.

oh, and the cost ($) of a unit, should not be factored in to their rules. thats just foolish. if you had (points) cost there, we could talk. however, the gorgers are solid where they are at. so dont expect any changes.

[amphoterik]

you do understand that carnivore dosent work like you think it does.

Carnivore works like this: When the (model with carnivore on it) kills a model (ablysonia) heals. I wish i could find DC /soles posting that, but i cant, for the life of me. I'll be back later.


I missed the PP post clarifying that. Last time I checked, it was waiting for clarification while people assumed it to be mis worded.

[Ghyrrshyld]

The biggest problem with "bloodgorge" as an ability is that it is really very powerful. +2 speed, damage and healing on top? Granted, I don't have their card in front of me, but they would have to be terrible now for them to get this without a point increase.
The healing wouldn't matter, they are single wound models. It would just allow easy templating to future bloodgorger models.

The +2 damage would only matter against Warbeasts, Solos, Casters/Locks and multiwound infantry that had been previously wounded.

If it was a problem with Locks/Warcasters we could exclude them.

[amphoterik]

Ah, missed the "damaged". While I agree that it is too late to change, there is no reason that a model later down the line could give them that ability. At first blush though, it feels a tad bit powerful since extra speed AND extra damage come at very high premiums in MKII.

[Tionas]

Got it.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showpost.php?p=36962&postcount=116

[Jyggdrasil]

I don't understand what "Please post a complete response to being with" means.

Spell checker auto-changed 'begin' to 'being'. Just saying that it would be better for you to either say all of what you want in a given post in the 1st place, or to mark your subsequent additions clearly so that people know response may have been posted without seeing them.



Also, stop telling people what to do. Again

You do understand what the word 'please' means tho. right?

[Ghyrrshyld]

Spell checker auto-changed 'begin' to 'being'. Just saying that it would be better for you to either say all of what you want in a given post in the 1st place, or to mark your subsequent additions clearly so that people know response may have been posted without seeing them.
If there is a 6-7 min gap between my edit time and your next post, I fail to see the problem. Maybe you should read a post you are replying to right before you hit enter? Please?

[amphoterik]

Got it.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showpost.php?p=36962&postcount=116

Hey, thanks!

Though, now it makes me ponder the biological consequences from deriving nutrition from food processed by another creature....

...I suppose I am now taking my thanks back...

[Ghyrrshyld]

. however, the gorgers are solid where they are at. so dont expect any changes.
I don't understand how this is possible. If they were solid before the change, and their points were not changed along with losing an ability how can this be true?

[Tionas]

there is a gradiation to a points bracket. some things are worth the "high end of eight," or, in otherwords, bordering on being 9, but not really good enough to justify. then there are the models that are on the weaker end, good enough that your willing to pay 8, but if you only payed 7 would feel a little over the top.

Bloodgorgers, as they stood in a no-hordes Environ, felt on the edge of the 8/9 scale. Bane thralls sit squarely in the middle, and I had a hard time NOT taking gorgers instead of thralls, and even would generaly take the gorgers over the 6/9's of Rev. Crew and the Raiders. But at 6/9 would make me balk. now, with how they are, i feel they are even footing, in the middle of the pack of 5/8's.

essentialy, they went from 8.8 to 8.6, from a Bargian for their points(almost OP) to Good for their points.

thats how.


Added: oh, and you should clearly and blatantly mark any edits to your post. its just form ettiquite, and proves your not just a fool spouting off.

[Ghyrrshyld]

there is a gradiation to a points bracket. some things are worth the "high end of eight," or, in otherwords, bordering on being 9, but not really good enough to justify. then there are the models that are on the weaker end, good enough that your willing to pay 8, but if you only payed 7 would feel a little over the top.

Bloodgorgers, as they stood in a no-hordes Environ, felt on the edge of the 8/9 scale. Bane thralls sit squarely in the middle, and I had a hard time NOT taking gorgers instead of thralls, and even would generaly take the gorgers over the 6/9's of Rev. Crew... That you are taking them EVEN over the Rev Crew is somewhat telling.




Added: oh, and you should clearly and blatantly mark any edits to your post. its just form ettiquite, and proves your not just a fool spouting off.
I feel that it isn't important if I am only doing spelling errors, or if I am saving it so I can re cut and paste another poster, who I would separately respond to.

Also, I did note that I had a spelling change in the inital post and just sort of forgot in the last one.

[Tionas]

hey, were not talking about the rev. crew here, were talking about the gorgers. leave those poor, nearly worthless sods out of it (add jovility here)

I'm just saying that they werent broken before, but they were damn sure on the edge. Now they fit firmly in the posts of eight points.

and, it dosent show that you have edited your posts anymore. thats strange. that used to be my rational behind it. letting people Know I had, say, adjusted spelling, instead of going and amending arguments to make sure I'm right... strange.

[Ghyrrshyld]

It says it right at the bottom. Last edited by Ghyrrshyld (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/posthistory.php?p=57737); Today at 11:49 AM. Reason: I spell not gud

[BENDER]

I am aware that the chances of rule changes are slim at this stage, but does anyone know for sure exactly when our book goes to print? We've got errata's before, we can do it again. In either case I think the rules are fine, but it would be great if they got buffs.

[Malfunction]

I think the gorgers are pretty good even without the boosted dice. Especially if you take Gerlak.

Granted i have only used them four times, but they worked each time very well.

2 Attacks with gang, so effective mat 8 and pow 13
Tough with no knockdown
Terror

Pretty good to me.

Ghyrrshyld,
Have you played with them or are you basing everything on theorymachine.

[Tionas]

Its not based on theorymachine, totaly.

Its based on
PP thought that gorgers were worth 5-8.

PP nerfs gorgers, but dosent change their points

Gorgers must be worth LESS than 5-8 now, because they were fine, and now they took something away.

its a decent enough argument, but I still believe its false. (see my post above)

and Gyr: Well, **** if it dosent. I edited both of my posts. dosent say anything about beign edited. strange indeed.

[ErsatzGnomes]

yay, way to reopen the whining about bloodgorgers

in all reality though, they really aren't that bad, and you just need to accept that they aren't blatantly superpowered anymore

[Ghyrrshyld]

Its not based on theorymachine, totaly.

Its based on
PP thought that gorgers were worth 5-8.

PP nerfs gorgers, but dosent change their points

Gorgers must be worth LESS than 5-8 now, because they were fine, and now they took something away.

its a decent enough argument, but I still believe its false. (see my post above)

I don't believe it's false, but to be fair it is yet another problem with the point system that it's so inflexable.
I think the gorgers are pretty good even without the boosted dice. Especially if you take Gerlak.

Granted i have only used them four times, but they worked each time very well.

2 Attacks with gang, so effective mat 8 and pow 13
Tough with no knockdown
Terror

Pretty good to me.

Ghyrrshyld,
Have you played with them or are you basing everything on theorymachine.
Tough with no Knockdown? Oh, you are adding another model in there, with Slaughterborn. Or are you saying that their cost includes him somehow.

I have played with them around 15-16 times, with a number of different casters, and in most situations I have found that they underperformed similarly costed units. In most situations I would have been better off with Satyxis or Banes.

[Ghyrrshyld]

yay, way to reopen the whining about bloodgorgers

in all reality though, they really aren't that bad, and you just need to accept that they aren't blatantly superpowered anymore
I didn't want them to be blatantly superpowered. My suggestion wouldn't make them blatantly superpowered either. It would just make them a bit cooler, and more cost-appropriate.

Both kinds of cost imo

[Malfunction]

Fair enough. Yes, I was adding in Gerlak.

[69Lazarus]

I did a comparison of them in the olf forum somewhere.....don't even know where to look. I think they are worth their points in MK II - I think they were a tad powerfull before.....

Either way, I'm building a unit of them now.

[Ghyrrshyld]

You agreed with whatever was done. Regardless of how much in the spirit of "I don't want to take the time to figure this out, let's just throw the baby out with the bathwater" it was. Surprise.gif.

On that point, what if anything do you think should or could have been done with the Drudge Slaves to make them playable and competitive?

[69Lazarus]

You agreed with whatever was done.


Not true.



On that point, what if anything do you think should or could have been done with the Drudge Slaves to make them playable and competitive?


I do agree that the drudge slaves need something. I'll have to think on that for a bit (I'm currently making dinner.) :)

[Jyggdrasil]

... It would just make them a bit cooler, and more cost-appropriate.

It also adds to in game bookkeeping, which is something mk2 aims to reduce.

BTW Ghyrrshyld- This is the longer version of what I meant by 'Let it go' (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showpost.php?p=58256&postcount=3). This thread may come up with the best idea possible, but it doesn't matter anymore. You could do the community a much better service by applying yourself to unlocking the potential in what they are, instead of what you wish they were.



Either way, I'm building a unit of them now.

Mine are assembled and undercoated. There are a few things in the painting que ahead of them, but only a few.

[Ghyrrshyld]

It also adds to in game bookkeeping, which is something mk2 aims to reduce.

BTW Ghyrrshyld- This is the longer version of what I meant by 'Let it go' (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showpost.php?p=58256&postcount=3). This thread may come up with the best idea possible, but it doesn't matter anymore. You could do the community a much better service by applying yourself to unlocking the potential in what they are, instead of what you wish they were.
Well, people will probably understand that there are better units for their costs (both in game and money) if nothing changes. I'm sure plenty of people feel the same way.

Also, shall we do the same thing about the Drudges? Just accept them and move on to not buying them?

Because honestly, if that is the answer, I am okay with that. I was just hoping that we could do something constructive instead. But apparently the champions of the game will rise up against anything that changes the status quo. Unless PP does it, in which case it's unicorns and rocketpacks for everyone. Or maybe Unicorns WITH Rocketpacks.

[69Lazarus]

Posted by:Ghyrrshyld



Well, people will probably understand that there are better units for their costs (both in game and money) if nothing changes. I'm sure plenty of people feel the same way.



Define better. I really ought to search out that old thread now.....




Also, shall we do the same thing about the Drudges? Just accept them and move on to not buying them?


I have a full unit in plastic still that I won at a tournament waaay back when they came out. I'd love for a reason to asemble them and may get that chance once the tier system hits or another units comes out that makes them better.

If you haven't purchased them, and they really are that awfull then what is the problem? Speak with your wallet and don't buy them. Use one of your "better" units that you already own or intend to purchase.



AS to the Gorgers - most people seem to want them to be crazy powerfull and the defacto choice. I like the fact we need to think about what infantry to field. I like what they bring to the table compared to simliar costed Bane Thralls.






Because honestly, if that is the answer, I am okay with that. I was just hoping that we could do something constructive instead. But apparently the champions of the game will rise up against anything that changes the status quo.


I'm all for constructive. Wishing for rules / modifications past the playtest phase doesn't seem to be constructive to me.

I can't keep up w/ your edits....


Unless PP does it, in which case it's unicorns and rocketpacks for everyone. Or maybe Unicorns WITH Rocketpacks.

I'm soo gonna buy that.

[n0signal]

http://ui31.gamespot.com/1214/deadhorsebeat_2.gif

Yeah baby! Git some!!

[Ghyrrshyld]

AS to the Gorgers - most people seem to want them to be crazy powerfull and the defacto choice. I like the fact we need to think about what infantry to field. I like what they bring to the table compared to simliar costed Bane Thralls.

I'm just going to ask this: Do you think that either the changes I mentioned, or if they had say allowed the Gorgers to do an additional +2 damage against wounded Non Warcaster/warlock Warrior Models it would have been either "Crazy Powerful" or the "Defacto Choice"?

[69Lazarus]

I'm just going to ask this: Do you think that either the changes I mentioned, or if they had say allowed the Gorgers to do an additional +2 damage against wounded Non Warcaster/warlock Warrior Models it would have been either "Crazy Powerful" or the "Defacto Choice"?


Maybe not and my comment was not directed soley at you. I do however think they are worth thier points which to me means they do not need anything to make them "better".

Hmm...I wonder where I posted tha comparison at.....hopefully not in one of the areas that were removed....

[n0signal]

Ghyrrshyld, are you Darknesse or Stilgar in disguise? *poke poke*

[coolwhip1]

Ghyrrshyld you are missing the point.

Suggesting and/or wishing for changes to the final rules (they are the final rules, and many seem to forget that fact...) is not constructive. It is whining and really really annoying.

http://ui31.gamespot.com/1214/deadhorsebeat_2.gif
^n0signal has hit the nail on the head...it's over. Stop beating the dead horse (in case you didn't get it).

P.S.
There was a HUGE thread on how the Bloodgorgers were suckish and such; go post there if you want to keep whining...but I doubt anyone will listen...

[69Lazarus]

Found my post:



Let's compare the Blood gorgers vs. Bane Thralls.

Both 8 point units and both have awesome solos that can be purchased for them.

They are both speed 5. The Gorger's can gain +2" charge vs. living targets without having to resort to their solo for that movement (tarterus can give extra charge distance too). They can also potentially gain more movement through Overtake.

The both have a 1/2" melee range.

Banethralls hit harder while the Gorgers get two attacks instead of one. Their potential extra movement makes them dangerous to other targets as well. Banes seem better suited to heavy targets while gorgers seem better for infantry.

Tarterus can help the Banes hit better and the gorgers already have gang making them pretty efficient.

Banes are undead and gorgers are fearless.

Banes are small based with stealth so are usually no good at blocking LOS at range. Gorgers are medium based with tough and access to a no knockdown ability.

Gorgers cause terror.

Banes debuff w/ Darkshround and Gorgers cannot be trampled.



That sure looks to me as if there are different reasons to take both units with one not being clearly "superior" to the other without considering caster / scenario / matchups etc.


Edit: I know this is a comparison to bane thralls and does not spefically concern wanting to add new rules to the unit. I do think however, that it makes a good case to them being costed correctly.

[PPS_Simon]

Well, people will probably understand that there are better units for their costs (both in game and money) if nothing changes. I'm sure plenty of people feel the same way.

Also, shall we do the same thing about the Drudges? Just accept them and move on to not buying them?

Because honestly, if that is the answer, I am okay with that. I was just hoping that we could do something constructive instead. But apparently the champions of the game will rise up against anything that changes the status quo. Unless PP does it, in which case it's unicorns and rocketpacks for everyone. Or maybe Unicorns WITH Rocketpacks.

Shut up, I work here and even I don't get a Rocketicorn.

I hear Jason has one but I don't believe it.

[Ghyrrshyld]

Ghyrrshyld, are you Darknesse or Stilgar in disguise? *poke poke*
That's really pretty rude, honestly. I may agree with a lot of what Darknesse said tactically, and I wish he was still around, but he was possibly a madman. Stilgar is still around a few days ago with a new moniker.

I guess in the end all I wanted was for someone to hear what i thought was a pretty cool Idea, and I had hoped that since it wasn't too late to change the Gorgers in one way, it maybe wouldnt be too late for another.

I'm sorry I got excited about what I thought was a cool idea, I should have just kept my mouth shut. Back to lurking for me.

[69Lazarus]

That's really pretty rude, honestly. I may agree with a lot of what Darknesse said tactically, and I wish he was still around, but he was possibly a madman. Stilgar is still around from what I know :P.



I heard that they are both still around.



I guess in the end all I wanted was for someone to hear what i thought was a pretty cool Idea. I'm kind of sorry I got excited about it. Back to lurking for me.


I do think that it was "cool". It just isn't required to make the unit worth it's points. If you could have Privateer add that to the Gorgers OR add something to the Drudges which would you choose? I know what I'd do...

[Jyggdrasil]

Instead of lurking how about trying to be constructive? Try posting tips and tricks for what you do like instead of bemoaning what you don't.

And FWIW, during the WM FT this thread would have been a great idea, but now its just picking at a scab.

[ErsatzGnomes]

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with gorgers

I'd rather have pp change other units if they are going to change anything- like improve on drudges, and cephalyx

[Tionas]

I'll go in with the fact that it would have been a decent ability, flavorfull, and possibly bad ***, but I dont think it'd make it on the cards.

Oh, and allong the "my models are in stage X" mine are painted and finished. maybe I could post a pic here, If i find it... I like them alot... ok... got one. make fun of the shceme all you want. thats my gorgers, and I'm stickin to em.
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc296/tionas/0420092308-1.jpg

the gorgers are fun to play, awesome to paint (though they make me dread a Medium based unit of banes).

oh, and I want a rocketicorn unit for cryx. someone, anyone?

[ResurrectioN]

Instead of lurking how about trying to be constructive? Try posting tips and tricks for what you do like instead of bemoaning what you don't.

And FWIW, during the WM FT this thread would have been a great idea, but now its just picking at a scab.

Unfortunately for us, nobody was clairvoyant and didn't start this thread before they were changed (after FT when rules were final).

[Mutton]

Shut up, I work here and even I don't get a Rocketicorn.

I hear Jason has one but I don't believe it.

Damn state took away my Rockitcorn for riding under the influence. SAY NO TO RAINBOW KIDS!

[Ghyrrshyld]

Unfortunately for us, nobody was clairvoyant and didn't start this thread before they were changed (after FT when rules were final).
Exactly.

If they had said "hey guys. We are having problems with this interaction and we would like some feedback" BEFORE throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it would have been better.

[69Lazarus]

Cryx loves throwing out babies....seems right anyways...

[lastspartacus]

Cryx cards have been printed?

[mstephens]

Unfortunately for us, nobody was clairvoyant and didn't start this thread before they were changed (after FT when rules were final).
Actually, some people *were* clairvoyant enough to point out (as early as May) that they were grossly overpowered against Hordes.

I finally broke down and bought them just in time for them to get the nerf, so I was/am pretty annoyed that the "final" rules really weren't. My take on it is: it's *waaaaay* too late to do anything about it. Cards are at the printers, etc., etc. Give it up and pick a battle you might actually win. :)

[Sabin]

Gorgers are still the best target for Scything touch, I auto-include them with pAsphixious every game. To be honest while I saw their application against beasts before the proofing what I liked most about them was how easily they dealt with a wounded warcaster.

[lastspartacus]

Who says the cryx cards have been printed? God knows I still hold a smattering of hope for some over the top things being changed in this game. Better a last minute change than years of horror.

[ResurrectioN]

Actually, some people *were* clairvoyant enough to point out (as early as May) that they were grossly overpowered against Hordes.

I finally broke down and bought them just in time for them to get the nerf, so I was/am pretty annoyed that the "final" rules really weren't. My take on it is: it's *waaaaay* too late to do anything about it. Cards are at the printers, etc., etc. Give it up and pick a battle you might actually win. :)

I only bought Gerlak and had luck to kill 9 zelots, vassal, full choir and Hireophant (and rolled 6,6 on dmg on Severius -) before G was forsaken.

I have no plan for buying gorgers - didn't consider it even before change.
I still have to find proper use for them in my lists.



Who says the cryx cards have been printed? God knows I still hold a smattering of hope for some over the top things being changed in this game. Better a last minute change than years of horror.

I agree, but that last minute change can affect other stuff and summon more horrors.

[Jyggdrasil]

Gorgers are still the best target for Scything touch, I auto-include them with pAsphixious every game.

Not to argue the value of Scything the gorgers, but its also worth remembering that the spell is *not* restricted to faction models. I have had tremendous good fun, watching Croe & his boys buffed with Scything charge a warbeast in the back.

Sure, its tricky to set up and only a base P&S of 10, but start adding up the bonuses and watch those beasts turn into read mist :D

[lich lord burns]

Cryx cards have been printed?


Who says the cryx cards have been printed?
I sez they has been printed. Because they release in one month. They were printed over a month ago, proofed, cut to size, sorted, packaged, shipped to Privateer, then shipped to distributors who then have to ship to retailers. Layout and final editing was all done before that.

Gorgers were final the day DC popped onto the old forums and gave the final text. He wasn't asking for feedback, he was stating a fact.

[Sabin]

Not to argue the value of Scything the gorgers, but its also worth remembering that the spell is *not* restricted to faction models. I have had tremendous good fun, watching Croe & his boys buffed with Scything charge a warbeast in the back.

Sure, its tricky to set up and only a base P&S of 10, but start adding up the bonuses and watch those beasts turn into read mist :D

I didn't actually realise that... that has some real solid applications, power 11 Nyss pop to mind, getting more out of Boomhowlers... steelhead heavy cav... hey even the good old Press gangers might even enjoy a bit of that action