Madrak losing ricochet

[Orbax]

Am I the only one who doesn't understand this?

Casters like Caine can still cast this, on other people no less, so its not an inherently unfair ability.

What am I missing?

Edit* if nothing else I'd like it as a 2 point spell.

The way im looking at it is in Primal, he could get boosted to a rat 7. That kind of kept him up with the +2 screening bonus. In mkii I don't think there are any troll abilities that boost RAT any more (am I wrong?) so the loss of the screen ability is kind of moot as he is attacking rat 5 now. Seems like its all still ok

[Soylent]

He's a RAT6 now, his feat is better due to better model interaction, Surefoot is an upkeep and he gained Carnage. While I liked Ricochet I don't lament the loss as pMadrak is much better now than his Mk1 incarnation.

[Invader Larb]

I will miss Ricochet on eMadrak more. It is how I began to get blood tokens. One good toss and he could get two tokens to save for later.

[Mr_Smigs]

He's a RAT6 now, his feat is better due to better model interaction, Surefoot is an upkeep and he gained Carnage. While I liked Ricochet I don't lament the loss as pMadrak is much better now than his Mk1 incarnation.


you left off the super shield, unless I mis-read the amulet he packs...

[unclebiggins]

I have lately been using his Axe as a source of beast rupturing goodness.

While I really miss Ricochet (It was my fav anti-stealth strategy and it gave me blood tokens with the epic at an awesome pace) I do not particularly mind its loss comparing with what Madrak gained in MKii.

The other pieces of the machine work alot better in MKii, KSB is more mobile, his KW block is tougher, feat more reliable on account of carnage. Unbuffed his Axe is slightly better due to the RAT buff but the real value comes from Critical Grevious Wounds.

Tag an enemy beast with a critical and follow up with attacks. After it has been critically hit it cannot be healed which drastically reduces its effectiveness if you can take out an aspect.

Combine with Snapjaw and Wrongeye and you can take two beasts out of the game for a turn and maul the enemies offensive potential.

We have to give up some things and ricochet was a particular rules concern with some of its interactions in the game.

[Masonious]

Ah true. I wasn't seeing his value within Hordes as my only competitors are Cygnar and Khador. Grievous Wounds i *love* but don't get to use (nice on stryker though, 1 hit and hes near death and doesn't get to heal on assassination runs), but I guess I was limiting my view to my experience, your explanations help heal the wound in my heart. (although, my God is cygnar harder to kill without ricochet and I don't particularly look forward to getting through khador armies either to kill the caster - Turn #1547, I've finally round enough circles around the map to get a ranged attack off that misses due to windwall)

Oops, this is Orbax lol. Posted from brother's computer :p

[Waaargh]

Funny you say it, I just crushed (pun intended) a Vlad list build to burst dire trolls, with Mulg and Mauler. I have been voicing strong dislike towards Vlad, but today it seemed the TB provide other ways to crack open the Khador armour.

[Masonious]

*still Orbax*

Yeah, mkii really got rid of my pmadrak brick. Im thinking of going 3 champs, slag, pyre, mauler, something like that vs the jack heavy armies. Vlad going to cost 4 on signs and portents and blood of kings made me very happy. He went from ridiculous to very good.

Dunno if Ill keep madrak running that list, might try Grissel with lots of lights and heavies and try just smashing him.

Its mainly just an issue because I had only like 6 units and models and have to pony up to buy the new armies (which I think will be more entertaining and dynamic anyway).

My current army is missing ricochet is my point I guess lol

/Orbax

[Kevan]

i would agree that the loss hurts but so does Elite Cadres disappearance from eMadrak :(

[Soylent]

i would agree that the loss hurts but so does Elite Cadres disappearance from eMadrak :(
I'm quite pleased with eMadrak now. He's the bees knees.

[Orbax]

So would you all suggest eMadrak over pMadrak? I rather like surefoot...esp v cygnar

[theummhmmguy]

i would agree that the loss hurts but so does Elite Cadres disappearance from eMadrak :(

I don't think I'll miss the elite cadre at all. My Kriels run up and die... they almost never ever kill much at all.

Ricochet I will miss more than Grim's ability to see whatever the heck he wants to see.

Methinks I need to playtest them both when I'm done with pDoomy and feedback. Upfront neither change seems too broken... Madrak with his low Fury has to boost the Richochet OR cast spells not both. Grim being able to see everything AND being able to move is really only detrimental to a few solos... and half of Cryx.

[Hocky]

ROF 2?

end of line

[Orbax]

ROF 2?

end of line

Rubber Man: Madrak's inbred albino genes also give him easily dislocatable joints. Using this defect to his advantage he can use the momentum of the returned axe to make one additional attack to any target within range before his spine is dislocated for a round.

[Cannibalbob]

I don't think I'll miss the elite cadre at all. My Kriels run up and die... they almost never ever kill much at all.




But they knock people over when they go!

[moorg]

So would you all suggest eMadrak over pMadrak? I rather like surefoot...esp v cygnar

Carnage is pretty damn sexy, too.

[McDevious]

I also miss Borka's thematically similar Bomb Bounce ability (forget what the exact name of the ability was).

Also, wasn't the fluff on the axe that it would ricochet all over the place and come back? I guess it'll be getting a fluff rework.

[Orbax]

The way I keep looking at it is

So you are saying that with Ricochet, madrak and his trolls were too powerful of a force to be reckoned with..

If eMadrak is the problem the fluff of him being the world ender and the axe requiring blood and stuff could easily transition into a melee heavy weapon.

just on pMadrak again...seriously...too powerful with ricochet?

[Waaargh]

Except for Grim, the special ranged attack rules were just fun and flavourfull, I don't miss them, and have happily forgotten about them. When it comes to Grim it an issue about balance - I for one have never had much success with him, though tuning down entries in other faction lists might have given him what is needed. Don't know, haven't played with him during the FT.

Edit: Orbax, the weapon is the same so gaining Richochet on pMadrak while not on eMadrak seems very odd to me. I'd rather balance is found in some other way. If there is a balance problem, that is.

[Ravir]

I miss Ricochet precisely because it was fun and flavorful. It didn't seem overpowered compared to things that were shooting back at me, and it was very easy to counteract just by blocking LOS from Madrak to your caster.

[Orbax]

Im just trying to figure out a way to make eMadrak not harvest tokens if that is the problem and feedback a relevant way to get it back for pMadrak. Its fun, my opponents actually enjoyed having to think about it because it elevated their tactics.

You got guys like Cygnar's Caine doing 4 pow 12 range 12 shots etc or eCaine with a ROF of INFINITY and this is considered unbalanced in some way? I'm with Ravir. It was really fun and a I liked it a lot and I want to start a movement of people who want to bring the fun back and feedback it!

[ChronoCrusher]

Yes, well the fun and flavor went out the window with MkII, that's what its all about.

[Waaargh]

None-important fluff went out the window, Rathrok is now just awesome ;)

[The Happy Anarchist]

Pow 15 boostable =/= Pow 12 boostable.

That said, ROF 2 or snap fire would not be remiss.

[Orbax]

Out of curiosity, do you believe the main benefit of the axe is now its critical effect? How does your opinion alter when used against war machine (kind of useless as a repair isn't a heal and anyone else it its is probably dead0

[Ravir]

Well, it's always had the critical effect of "no transfers", but in MkI it was just for that attack, and now it's for an entire round. That alone completely changes my tactics for engaging the enemy. Now instead of Madrak going in last to finish the job, he ends up wanting to get the first shot in so that even if he doesn't finish the job, a critical hit means anybody else can take over where he left off. Then the decision is either you want to get a ranged crit and hold Maddy back for safety, or charge in and get 3 boosted attack rolls to try to guarantee a crit with a Page 5 maneuver, especially if you have anybody else hanging around who could hit the target if they survive the Rathrok invasion.

Madrak is a highly situational beatstick. Against War Machine his crit is much less effective, and against a beast/jack-heavy list his feat is near useless. He's just the epitomy of Troll Standard Diplomacy: Walk straight to the enemy, withstanding hellfire along the way, and implement Axe To Face.

[Orbax]

I think that must be my hangup, I feel like every caster should have *something* to offer. Surefoot is nice, but lately with shake effects it just feels kind of meh. Ricochet gave someone like cygnar a little extra to worry about.

Now its "oh good, you're fielding Madrak"

[TheDarkSideOfValor]

Madrak is my main Warlock when i use the trollbloods, and i am sad to see ricochet go. i've used it to kill, pVlad, Grim, pKreoss, eVlad, and a few different Cygnar casters. i'm just glad Madrak gains so much more than he loses in MKii ;)

[The Happy Anarchist]

Now its "oh good, you're fielding Madrak"

Actually, people are pretty afraid of Madrak. Particularly Mulg + his feat, in general Mat 10 Heroes walking through units and all around shenanigans.

Madrak is definitely not something people hope to face, unless you have been playing a significant amount of Calandra lately.

[Patuljak]

Just to add one more voice, I'm also sad to see richochet gone as my Madrak racked up a number of high-profile kills due to it. My favourite has to be a POW20 axe that richocheted into pHaley from a Long Gunner straight through her blasted Temporal Barrier and one shotted her, but that is the reason why it had to go. Boostable POW15 axes flying from 18" away and richocheting 4" from any angle is the kind of shenanigans MK2 is trying to get rid of. Besides, if it's Richochet or Carnage&upkeepable Surefoot, I know which one I'd rather have.

[Orbax]

The only thing I think of when I hear that is how reasonable it sounds. And yes, those were very difficult things that made it harder in general to have a straight forward game.

And then there is eHaley who can arc node telekinesis basically anywhere on the board. How can you possibly plan on 1 of your 20 models (or theirs!) moving 2 inches in any of 360 possibilities. I basically have to ignore the ability and get screwed by it.

Ive found theres still a lot of crazy stuff you just kind of live with in the game and I just never felt ricochet could compete with the truly ridiculous abilities that exist in this game hehe.

I've had some rad kills, but also some epic failures that left madrka stumbling backwards reading his scroll of perseverance.

I don't think hes a bad caster, or worse than he was, I just have less "fun" with him and im sad.

[McStompersmashcrusher]

how was maddy tossing an axe 18 inches? i know i could get 12 inches from it...but 18? i truly didnt know ricochet was that insane, i am surely sad to see it go as well...was a fun thing and about the only reason i used madrak.

[Patuljak]

You move 6" and throw it 12" ;)

[Kevan]

Why not rework Ricochet?

Perhaps only granting an extra target if the attack or damage roll was boosted and if the first target was killed.

Perhaps the 2nd attack could just be the overkill damage of the 1st attack if it hits.

Other ideas?

[ColdYinTiger]

Still not sure how anyone was shocked Ricochet and bounce left. Fluff doesn't equal rules unless its tier armies now.

That being said, I would love Mad and Borks signiture ability come back.

[cryptomancer]

I miss Ricochet terribly. It made Madrak into one of the most dangerous ranged threats in Hordes. I think it was removed to get rid of eMadrak Feat Turn goodness (the number of times my foes goggled at eating four POW:20 thrown axes into their hard stuff was boundless), which is a shame. It turns Madrak into a support warlock, and I'm saddened by that. His close combat potential is still present and fine (though he's now got lower P+S than Borka, and lacks Reach...), but it restricts him to a Close Support/Melee Beater role, and he's not exactly the best-in-the-game at melee, either.

What would people feel about not getting back Ricochet (weird wording/timing may have been the reason to lose it), but gaining ROF:2 on Thrown Rathrok?

-Crypto

[Orbax]

ROF 2 would be friggin SWEET. most of the time i was ricocheting laterally anyway

[Patuljak]

Guys, try to keep PP's policy in mind. If we want Madrak to get ROF:2 then he would need to be nerfed somewhere to compensate, and I'd be hesitant to suggest anything. Madrak is a bit less fun now but at least his prime version works.

[Mr_Smigs]

ROF 2 would be friggin SWEET. most of the time i was ricocheting laterally anyway


how about, instead of ROF 2, getting "Return Shot - Madrak may reroll failed Ranged Attack Rolls"

[Waaargh]

Madrak lost Ricochet, and gained RAT 6, Magic Weapon and most importantly critical Grievous Wounds in Rathrok, which is a serious improvement over the olden critical Fatality.

In my book it is a gain.

[bakaryu]

Madrak didn't gain magic weapon, Rathrok always had Wraith Bane :)
Critical Grievous Wounds though is the big money maker over Critical Fatality

[Waaargh]

Wraith Bane and Magic Weapons has a few differences, being able to puncture Wind Wall is one (have I said I don't like pVlad?).