Winter Guard - why

[Kevin B]

Im still feeling my way into the game and one unit many here are praising are the winter guard. I just cant get my head round them. I asked a similar question regarding the Juggy and the replies cleared all this up so Im hoping this will happen again.

To me they are under armoured, under armed (the blunderbusses seem short ranged to me with low punch) and over priced (iron fangs only a point more).

What am I missng or not understanding with them?

I understadn that the rockets add and and punch but you could get a weapons team if that all you want for much less and the command gives it a few bit but again its extra cost.

The rifleman unit looks nice and might give them the function I want from them but until it comes out we have these guys and I want to learn the use of them as I have a unit or two in my mates figure case that im painting up for him and using.

Thanks in advance.

[MGRockwell]

I asked this same question in a way here: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=3578, but I agree. I think that without their defense buffs they are way too vulnerable. However, having a large unit that is buffable up to 17 defense (Bob and Weave + Iron Flesh) for an upkeep of 1 focus is pretty reasonable. Honestly though, I probably won't be including them in my lists with casters who don't have Iron Flesh.

Large CMA and CRA is nothing to sneeze at but things have to go right and you have to watch out for things that don't require defense checks to hit (drifting AOE's, spells that place AOEs, etc.).

[Cambeul]

What Casters do you normally use?

Try fielding them with Unit Attachment and a Caster that can give them Iron Flesh. Plus you must bring Joe along for the ride as well.

With the above I believe you get Def 19 or something with Tough, and if you had eSorscha you get Desperate Pace as well.

The UA also gives their weapons Spray if you need it for some troop clearing, maybe tie some things up with IFP,s, move some WG to clear out the rest with Joe giving +2 to hit.

The Winter Guard I believe that if you do not have all the 'right' pieces in place is not better not to bring them into battle. On paper they seem kinda like Assault Kommandos and right now AK's are really not that good of a unit. (Cannot wait till their caster comes out.)

[Pat Thompson]

In isolation a WG unit is nothing much to talk about but when you start stacking buffs then they become extremely effective. Consider the following...

Winterguard plus unit attachment (for the "bob and weave order"), Iron Flesh from one of the War Casters who has it, some Blizzards from a unit of Grey Lords and then Kovnik Joe singing his "Tough" song.
This gives you a unit of Def 19 (or blocked LOS) models which are tough.

Winterguard unit plus Kovnik Joe's added strength speech, add in Fury from the Butcher and his feat (more extra strength plus extra damage dice) or ESorscha's Feat (double damage over armour) and then factor in CMAs and they become frighteningly good in melee.

Combined range attacks with Joe's "boosted attack roll" ditty, again combo'ed with ESorscha or Butcher's feats (or signs and portents from Vlad, or adding to EBucher's feat etc etc) and you have a decent range power.

Try the same "boosted attack roll" buff with spray attacks ignoring stealth, cover etc...that's an easy way to get rid of annoying tiered Retribution stealth units. Add in Ayana and Holt and you can destroy units of Cryxy ghost pirate things with ease!

I was a big fan of the utility of WG in Mk1 and they have certainy jumped up a level in the new era. They really shine with Iron Flesh wielding casters but can still operate well with their own buffs and other spells from casters. The trick with them is to not look at them as a unit in isolation but to see what you can stack them with. I have yet to have my WG unit killed in Mk2 and they have proven to be a real pain to deal with.

Let's hope they get further buffs with some tiers and the new Riflemen!!

[Vinter_Loyalist]

To me they are under armoured, under armed (the blunderbusses seem short ranged to me with low punch) and over priced (iron fangs only a point more).

With Iron fangs, one will likely use shield wall, slowing their speed to 6. With the right casters, bonuses etc. winterguard can close with an enemy much faster. To me,their speed seems fairly useful especially when support fire is theoretically coming from winterguard motor crews. Also, as stated previous, this large unit provides a hefty CRA CMA option, thus offsetting their seemingly under powered weapons.

Also, everyone uses iron fangs. They are boring. Players should start fielding units because they look good and are characterful, not just because they have the highest armor, strongest attack etc.

[vytzka]

Also, everyone uses iron fangs. They are boring. Players should start fielding units because they look good and are characterful, not just because they have the highest armor, strongest attack etc.

I'm sorry but Iron Fangs in their heavy red armor in a shield wall with their lances extended look about ten times as cool as joe nobodies in grey winter coats.

Personal opinion time, obviously, but I'm not planning to get any Winterguard for a long long time precisely because they don't look nearly imposing enough to me.

[Vinter_Loyalist]

I'm not planning to get any Winterguard for a long long time precisely because they don't look nearly imposing enough to me.

There is nothing more imposing than a regular guy facing down the enemies of the motherland now eh? :p

IMHO I think the winter guard models look ace.

[Kevin B]

Ok thanks for that I must admit I was looking at them on their own and not with all the buffs. The thing was I was worried about putting all my eggs in one basket with including the unit, Joe, rockets and command etc all for one block.

What does CRA adn CMA stand for - silly noob question

Just to learn one caster and get a force under my belt I an currently using Vlad (normal one).

I dont actually like the look of the WG as I think they look a little boring and their guns are silly looking (the riflemen look better) I think the Iron fangs look nice - just shame about their bendy pikes lol.

[Gnoa]

Ok thanks for that I must admit I was looking at them on their own and not with all the buffs. The thing was I was worried about putting all my eggs in one basket with including the unit, Joe, rockets and command etc all for one block.

What does CRA adn CMA stand for - silly noob question

Just to learn one caster and get a force under my belt I an currently using Vlad (normal one).

I dont actually like the look of the WG as I think they look a little boring and their guns are silly looking (the riflemen look better) I think the Iron fangs look nice - just shame about their bendy pikes lol.

CRA = Combined Range Attack

CMA = Combined Melee Attack

Per page 31 of rulebook:
Combined Melee Attack – This model can participate in combined melee attacks with other models in its unit

Combined Ranged Attack – This model can participate in combined ranged attacks with other models in its unit

I think your question about Winterguard is an excellent example of why these boyos (and girls) are second or third round purchases for most people. They require support and clear purpose in an army. They are effective because they are a large mass of bodies to throw at your opponent, but only with a little help. Sorcha and other unit buffing casters can turn them into a tide of death. Casters like Karchev can only really use them as speed bumps.

When i bring them, i bring them in mass.

Kovnik Joe
1 unit with 10 Guard + 3 Rocketeers + UA
1 unit with 10 Guard + 3 Rocketeers

That's 29 figures with 6 POW 12 AOE 3 shots. With Joe I can do some hideous things to one of these units (Tough and fearless for tar pitting, +3 strength for a nasty charge, or at least 3 rocket attacks that are likely to hit spot on). That doesn't even consider my Caster yet.

[Pat Thompson]

What does CRA adn CMA stand for - silly noob question

CRA - Combined Range Attack

CMA - Combined Melee Attack

Personally I think that there are beter casters that Vlad to be using WG with though being Vlad, he wll help them with Signs and Portents.

Depending on the point level you're playing a full unit with all the sparkly add ons can be expensive but they will perform well. If you're playing at 50 points, it's not so much of an investment and usually a good return.

[Michael]

Also, something no one else has mentioned:

A full unit of Winterguard (with no bells and whistles, such as unit attachments) costs 6 points. That is a steal. They're a very cheap unit who can still put some serious holes in things with Combined Ranged Attack.

[Kevin B]

Personally I think that there are beter casters that Vlad to be using WG with though being Vlad, he wll help them with Signs and Portents.


I understand that there are better casters for them, I am looking ahead for when I use other casters and/or expand the army past 35pts (my current game size).

I have them ready to be painted after a few other units and I have just seen others in posts really singing their praise and I couldnt see their use.

[Avecrien]

This is me pacing back and forth waiting for my rifle corps.

[Tevesh]

What got me curious is that you think that the Blunderbuss is low power. I hate to break it to you, but that's actually exceedingly high for a non-elite unit which is why their range is so low.

If you look at Cygnar, almost all of their guns are Pow 10. That means on average, they are doing 17 points of damage (the average amount for 2d6 is 7, 3d6 is 10, 4d6 is 14). Pow 12s do 19 points of damage on average. Do you know what the magic number for armor on infantry is? 18; look at all the Shield Wall units, they almost all are 18s and everything else is lower. Once you get to elites, the ARM goes up a little but they gain Wounds.

Then, WG get really disgusting once you start factoring in CRA. A Cygnarian CRA is a Pow 12, which we just stated is really good. WG's CRA becomes a 14, the same damage as a Demo Corp's Ice Maul. Just look at a bunch of models you own, I bet they couldn't stand up to much to taking multiple 21 damage points (CRA POW 14 + 7, average of 2d6). When you look at Khador's Jacks, our ARM is 20 but everybody else is lingering in 17-19 (Cryx-Cygnar-Menoth, respectively). WG are deadly because of how many men you can put in a squad, which then increases the CRA threat as well. They're also cheap, which means you can begin to start adding even more units.

To recap, Cygnar wants a POW 14 CRA? They need to use 4 guys, while WG need to use 2. Also, WG are probably cheaper than whatever caused that POW 14, and there's more of them. Also, Winter Guard have a special case of being able to attach Rocketeers who have their own Blunderbuss, increasing the CRA. Lastly, the WG Standard actually has weapons and this is unusual. Most Standards in the game don't actually have weapons, if you kill the whole squad except for the Standard the only thing they usually can do is look pretty (look at IFP's UA, as well as countless others outside of the faction).

A lot of "This is good" or "this is bad" is looking horizontally; looking at different units and Warcasters, rather than the vertical "What does this one guy do?"

[Gnoa]

What got me curious is that you think that the Blunderbuss is low power. I hate to break it to you, but that's actually exceedingly high for a non-elite unit which is why their range is so low.

If you look at Cygnar, almost all of their guns are Pow 10. That means on average, they are doing 17 points of damage (the average amount for 2d6 is 7, 3d6 is 10, 4d6 is 14). Pow 12s do 19 points of damage on average. Do you know what the magic number for armor on infantry is? 18; look at all the Shield Wall units, they almost all are 18s and everything else is lower. Once you get to elites, the ARM goes up a little but they gain Wounds.

Then, WG get really disgusting once you start factoring in CRA. A Cygnarian CRA is a Pow 12, which we just stated is really good. WG's CRA becomes a 14, the same damage as a Demo Corp's Ice Maul. Just look at a bunch of models you own, I bet they couldn't stand up to much to taking multiple 21 damage points (CRA POW 14 + 7, average of 2d6). When you look at Khador's Jacks, our ARM is 20 but everybody else is lingering in 17-19 (Cryx-Cygnar-Menoth, respectively). WG are deadly because of how many men you can put in a squad, which then increases the CRA threat as well. They're also cheap, which means you can begin to start adding even more units.

To recap, Cygnar wants a POW 14 CRA? They need to use 4 guys, while WG need to use 2. Also, WG are probably cheaper than whatever caused that POW 14, and there's more of them. Also, Winter Guard have a special case of being able to attach Rocketeers who have their own Blunderbuss, increasing the CRA. Lastly, the WG Standard actually has weapons and this is unusual. Most Standards in the game don't actually have weapons, if you kill the whole squad except for the Standard the only thing they usually can do is look pretty (look at IFP's UA, as well as countless others outside of the faction).

A lot of "This is good" or "this is bad" is looking horizontally; looking at different units and Warcasters, rather than the vertical "What does this one guy do?"

Really good point, i think you just volunteered to write up a WG tactica :cool:

[Appolus]

Remember that with Joe and eSorscha hanging around, they become incredibly accurate too. If you pair up 2 WG for a CRA with Joe around, they get a RAT 8 boosted ranged attack roll that they can reroll! They would be hitting DEF 18 reliably. Not shabby at all.

In addition, sprays became about the coolest thing in the world in Mk II. March those WG up 7" a turn (6 base-1 Iron Flesh + 2 Desperate Pace) and have them shove boosted POW 12 shotguns into the fleshy masses of enemy troops. Whole units of long gunners have perished before 4 well-placed sprays. Pretty nice.

[Khador247]

We need a model like the Journeyman warcaster whose sole purpose on the table is to be able to cast Iron Flesh. I'd use it. I'm always hesitant to leave it upkept on a unit and leave my caster exposed. I want my cake and eat it too.

[Cambeul]

Give Strakhov (is that the new caster?) Snipe for my Winterguard :D

And a Journey Man Warcaster would be a neet idea. But then we have Grey Lords already. But then Cygnar have Storm Smiths...

[Kevin B]

Well I shall consider myself corected on the punch front. I did say I'm new to this so don't know the other races as I'm trying to mainly learn mine. I'm still worried about the short range as if the target is still standing after I fire they will be charging me. But you have convinced me about their worth and I will give them ago.

Thanks

[OldOneEye]

I'm sorry but Iron Fangs in their heavy red armor in a shield wall with their lances extended look about ten times as cool as joe nobodies in grey winter coats.

Personal opinion time, obviously, but I'm not planning to get any Winterguard for a long long time precisely because they don't look nearly imposing enough to me.
They look plenty imposing when your opponent realizes they have to add 27 to whatever you just rolled for damage on a full-unit CRA. :cool:

I've always liked the look of Winterguard. They're grim, gritty, rank-and-file troops.