Angel or Carnivean

[amphoterik]

Just curious what everyone is getting more mileage out of currently, the angelius or the carnivean. Given that buffs that work for one also work for the other, I was curious as to people's go-to-heavy.

Granted their strengths and weaknesses are determined by their difference costs and the situation, but if you are playing someone with an unknown army composition, which do you reach for? I suppose both is also a viable answer.

For me, I have been using Carnivean almost exclusively with our other beasts and havent really touched the angel much.

[Neutralyze]

angel still has its uses. i have used them and they function well with certain warlocks. i like them with abby for forced evolution, i like them with Saeryn for the feat and flying over the enemy army.

everyone else it is situational IMO.

[Garth]

I still play them as in MK I:

As one beast I take the carni, if I take 2 beasts I take 2 Angels.

The carni can take out a heavy in one turn. The Angelius can't. But the Angelius is more mobile and can do very much with very few Focus.

2 Angels work great together and cost only 9 points. But one alone isn't that useful. I even think about buying 2 more angels for 50 points ;-).

[worldsdeadliestcomposer]

I think I've used a carnivean in every MK2 game I've played. They're pretty much amazing now, even if they are on the expensive side. I still love the angelius, but I think the carnivean is now my favorite beast. I also seem to always miss whenever I thrust with my angelius. Even if I need a 4 or some ridiculously low number, I'll somehow roll just below it. Aside from that, carniveans are just awesome-sauce.

[Soulblighter]

The Carnivean is better most of the time. The Angelius seems a bit underwhelming for 9 points and I really only use it in gimmick lists. The Angelius doesnt hit hard enough for a 9 point warbeast. Yes it has armorpiercing, but only one attack, and it after that its only hitting with pitiful P+S14. To be worth 9 points I feel the Angelius needs a P+S15 bite attack as well as a much better animus. That would put it on par with the Pureblood Warpwolf.

[Nargacuga]

I also support the campaign for a better Angelius animus.

It would be perfect then.

[Hjelmen0]

I also support the campaign for a better Angelius animus.

It would be perfect then.

I definitely agree. Avenging Angel is what is "wrong" with the Angelius.

[alchahest]

I'd love a different animus. without it I'll still field angels, I just have never (in MK I or in MK II) gotten any use out of avenging angel.

[Garth]

Angels work. They work fine.
I played 2 with Saeryn and E-Lylyth and E-Thag. They are fine. One Angel + an other heavy works too. But remembers: They are out cheap discount heavys. Yeah, our cheap 9 point heavys ;-).
They don't work alone.

[Soulblighter]

Angels work. They work fine.
I played 2 with Saeryn and E-Lylyth and E-Thag. They are fine. One Angel + an other heavy works too. But remembers: They are out cheap discount heavys. Yeah, our cheap 9 point heavys ;-).
They don't work alone.

So you think its animus is fine? If thats the case then how do you use the animus effectively? Because I cant seem to get it to do anything productive.

[OldOneEye]

I just assume it's discounted to 9 points because it doesn't have an animus. :p

They were more expensive than the Carnivean in MKI and totally worth it; in MKII, they're largely unchanged AND cheaper now. I don't see much to complain about.

[Soulblighter]

They were more expensive than the Carnivean in MKI and totally worth it; in MKII, they're largely unchanged AND cheaper now. I don't see much to complain about.

Huh largely unchanged? The Angelius was completely changed. It lost its best ability (ignoring freestrikes). Ravenous was hugely nerfed as well. It barely resembles the MK1 Angelius. It also costs about the same as it always did. Its the Carnivean that got way more expensive.

Truthfully im still a little confused what role the Angelius is supposed to be performing in MK2. Its obviously not a straight-up beatstick because it lacks the damage output and survivability of other 9pointers. Without the ability to ignore freestrikes its not a very good opportunist either (except with Saeryn). And lastly it doesnt provide any decent utility or support. So what exactly is it supposed to do?

I feel the Angelius needs a better animus to help define its role in our army. Or maybe Leadership [Seraph] to give the Seraphs a neat ability. All I know is it needs something.

[blitzmonkey]

Huh largely unchanged? The Angelius was completely changed. It lost its best ability. Ravenous was nerfed. It barely resembles the MK1 Angelius. It also costs about the same as it always did. Its the Carnivean that got way more expensive.

Truthfully im still a little confused what role the Angelius is supposed to perform in MK2. Its obviously not a straight-up beatstick. But without the ability to ignore freestrikes its not a very good opportunist like it used to be. So what exactly is it supposed to be doing?

I feel the Angelius needs a better animus to help better define its role in our army.

I hate to keep following you on the forums, but I am really questioning if you might be confused about whats going on with MKII LoE.

The new Angel is AMAZING. He can still take infantry out very well.
He takes out hard targets well. That, or he softens them up. Abby LOVES angels. LOVES them. The Angel has a role now. It isn't the auto-win button anymore.

[Soulblighter]

The new Angel is AMAZING. He can still take infantry out very well.
He takes out hard targets well. That, or he softens them up. Abby LOVES angels. LOVES them. The Angel has a role now. It isn't the auto-win button anymore.

But why take a 9 point Angelius that will only half kill a hard target when you can take an 11 point Carnivean that will outright kill it? Maybe you like to leave enemy warbeasts half alive so they can retaliate but thats not how I roll.

[blitzmonkey]

Because most of the time my angel kills it. Notice how I said that OR etc?

[belotelov]

Angel Vs Carnivean? Is this a joke? Carnivean! Just count damage.

[alchahest]

Take an angel because it has an easier time getting to those solos that are buffing your opponent's jacks. or getting a good hit on the caster or two. with armour piercing, the angel can put alot of damage onto a caster - and even if they shunt damage, you are then putting all that damage onto a beast without even looking at the beast's armour.

it's simply a different tool. the carnivean can't fly over obstacles, rivers, and friendly troops. The angel can, and he can fly over enemy troops (though not immune to free strikes)

[Defenstrator]

The Angelius and Carnivean are both rather different beasts. The Angelius is more of a precision instrument. With a higher SPD, reach, and flight it can attack targets the Carnivean simply couldn't get to. And while overtake isn't Ravenous, it is still extra movement and can let the Angelius walk down the line of 1 wound models. It's range attack is now solid as well. At POW 12 there is a larger range of things it can hurt and it's better for sniping of solos as you approach the main force. The only real flaws of the Angelius are 1)Serpantine and 2) a useless animus.

The Carnivean is a beast. He still feels a bit expensive at 11 points, but with the health increase he's a bit more durable even if his defensive stat line is sub par. The spray is a big deal for him, because along with assault you can pick off people at a 19" threat range. There are games where I charge out to the flank to spray stuff down while remaing out of counter attack range of my opponent. That's a really big spray. And of course he tears stuff up in melee. I do get very frustrated against Menoth though. Enliven stops the Carnivean from doing what he needs vs their heavies, he doesn't have an open fist to lock them, and Legion doesn't have much magical shooting to get around Safe Passage.

[bmeier]

I think I've used a carnivean in every MK2 game I've played. They're pretty much amazing now, even if they are on the expensive side. I still love the angelius, but I think the carnivean is now my favorite beast. I also seem to always miss whenever I thrust with my angelius. Even if I need a 4 or some ridiculously low number, I'll somehow roll just below it. Aside from that, carniveans are just awesome-sauce.
I seem to always roll 15+ on my damage when I use the thrust attack. Maybe I am stealing all of your good rolls.

[bmeier]

The Carnivean is better most of the time. The Angelius seems a bit underwhelming for 9 points and I really only use it in gimmick lists. The Angelius doesnt hit hard enough for a 9 point warbeast. Yes it has armorpiercing, but only one attack, and it after that its only hitting with pitiful P+S14. To be worth 9 points I feel the Angelius needs a P+S15 bite attack as well as a much better animus. That would put it on par with the Pureblood Warpwolf.
You are aware that if you thrust you would lose the bite attack. The only thing that I want out of the angel is a better animus.

[RuneGrey]

Hmmm. I'm still in favor of Avenging Angel giving target unit within 6 inches Counter Charge. Have it cost 2 (or even 3!) fury, and it would balance itself out pretty well, and gives the Angelius some back line support utility while it's not making its assassination runs.

[Defenstrator]

Target unit is never going to happen. I'd be happy if it gave target model Vengence if something dies in its CMD range.

[OldOneEye]

Huh largely unchanged? The Angelius was completely changed. It lost its best ability (ignoring freestrikes). Ravenous was hugely nerfed as well. It barely resembles the MK1 Angelius. It also costs about the same as it always did. Its the Carnivean that got way more expensive.

Same SPD, MAT, RAT, DEF, ARM, CMD, fury, damage spiral, Blood Creation, Eyeless Sight, Serpentine, Soulless, and melee attack.

EVERYTHING lost the ability to ignore freestrikes, so no reason to hold that against the Angelius. Overtake is a reduction from Ravenous, but still does basically the same thing.

To say that "it barely resembles the MKI Angelius" is kinda silly. If you played your MKI Angelius to do nothing more than skip over enemy models and see if you could bounce 3" around enemy units, then yeah, you're probably disappointed. If you've ever done even one-- JUST one-- Thrust attack with its tail, though, you'll find that it still plays the same.

[Soulblighter]

EVERYTHING lost the ability to ignore freestrikes, so no reason to hold that against the Angelius. Overtake is a reduction from Ravenous, but still does basically the same thing.

Losing freestrikes was its defining ability. How could you NOT hold it against the Angelius? And Ravenous and Overtake arnt even close to the same thing. 3" and 1" are massively different. I dont feel the MK2 Angelius at all resembles the MK1 Angelius. The MK2 Angelius fills a completely different role than it did in MK1 because it can no longer fly over enemy models without taking freestrikes. Its no longer able to attack whatever it wants wherever it wants. Which is fine, I realize the Angelius needed to change, but please dont try to convince anyone its remotely similar.

As for MK2, right now I feel the Angelius is high 8 or possibly low 9. It does significantly less damage than a warpwolf/mauler, it has less survivability than a warpwolf/mauler, and its only slightly more maneuverable than a warpwolf. I think the Angelius definitely needs a buff somewhere to bring it upto par with the warpwolf. Adding a bite attack to the Angelius would normalize its damage a bit more with other 9 pointers and obvously it needs a better animus because avenging angel never gets used the way it is now.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Losing freestrikes was its best ability. IT?? IT was not the only one with the ability. Immunity to freestrikes was never it's "gimmick" Thrust+ SPD 7+ Reach was IT's thing. It still has that.

[amphoterik]

Right now the Angelius is high 8 or possibly low 9. It does significantly less damage than a warpwolf, it has less survivability than a warpwolf, and its only slightly more maneuverable than a warpwolf. The Angelius definitely needs a buff somewhere to bring it upto par with the warpwolf. Adding a bite attack to the Angelius would normalize its damage a bit more and obvously it needs a better animus because avenging angel never gets used the way it is now.

A bite would never get used because Thrust is a *Attack

[Soulblighter]

A bite would never get used because Thrust is a *Attack

Yes it would. You buy additional attacks with the bite because its higher P+S than the tail. The bite would be P+S15 or 16.

[alchahest]

if the bite was given a higher strength than the tail attack, then I could see it being forced for secondary attacks.

[nachtnebel]

Perhaps a useful animus would be enough to make the Angelius worth 9 points, something that grants Overtake e.g.

[OldOneEye]

A bite attack... that's only 1 POW higher... and doesn't benefit from Reach?

Yeah, I'm excited now. :p ;)

It's still got the SINGLE HIGHEST DAMAGE OUTPUT ATTACK IN THE GAME against medium- and large-based models. It makes this attack at MAT 6. It's rolling dice plus against a closed Devastator. It can do this attack from 12" away unaided (save from forcing), and ignores LOS and terrain issues when doing it. I don't think it's as desperate a case as it's being made out to be.

Its animus needs some work-- it's gimpy, and it always has been-- but you can't dismiss the most potent weapon in its arsenal when you're evaluating it. Yeah, you can only do it once a turn, but that one time can be plenty.

[alchahest]

yeah, I honestly don't mind it besides the animus. but if it got a bite, it would need to be stronger than the tail for it to make any difference at all.

[Soulblighter]

Certainly a better animus would help tremendously. Im not sure a better animus alone is enough though. The Angelius currently does about half to two-thirds the damage (half vs small based models, two-thirds vs medium and large based models) that other 9 point warbeasts do against ARM18 models. I really feel a P+S15-16 bite attack is a necessity for closing that damage gap. It doesnt seem like much but it makes a huge difference when it comes to killing that warpwolf in one turn.

[Lazlo]

I think a POW 16 bite is a nice idea. It wouldn't have Reach, so in those cases where you need that extra 1.5" threat you would be stuck with buying POW 14 attacks, but if you don't need that extra distance then the POW 16's are on the table. I don't think a POW 15 would be much of an improvement, but I'll take what I can.

Right now, it seems I need two to have the same damage output as other 9 pointers. But maybe that's just the cost of having a hand cannon in its mouth.

[Soulblighter]

A bite attack... that's only 1 POW higher... and doesn't benefit from Reach?

Yeah, I'm excited now.

Actually 1 POW makes the difference between killing a Warpwolf in one turn and not killing a Warpwolf in one turn. Although certainly a P+S16 bite attack would be preferable.


It's still got the SINGLE HIGHEST DAMAGE OUTPUT ATTACK IN THE GAME against medium- and large-based models. It makes this attack at MAT 6. It's rolling dice plus against a closed Devastator. It can do this attack from 12" away unaided (save from forcing), and ignores LOS and terrain issues when doing it. I don't think it's as desperate a case as it's being made out to be.

1) Who cares if it has the highest damage output attack in the game? Its TOTAL damage that matters. The Angelius' total damage output is considerably less than that of other 9 point warbeasts.

2) The Devastator is not a good test case for the Angelius as base ARM25 is anamolous. ARM18-20 is far more reasonable to use as a test case of the Angelius' armorpiercing attack. Against ARM18-20 other 9 point warbeasts simply do more damage.

3) Angelius struggles much more against high ARM small bases than other 9 point warbeasts.


Right now, it seems I need two to have the same damage output as other 9 pointers. But maybe that's just the cost of having a hand cannon in its mouth.

I had considered that, but the hand cannon just doesnt seem that useful. The Angelius charges 12" anyway so generally its better to make a thrust attack than shoot the hand cannon. At most the hand cannon seems to get used only once per game. I think it should just be replaced with a P+S16 bite attack. That combined with the overtake animus would fix up the Angelius rather nicely.

[Zerosoul]

I had considered that, but the hand cannon just doesnt seem that useful. The Angelius charges 12" anyway so generally its better to make a thrust attack than shoot the hand cannon. At most the hand cannon seems to get used only once per game. I think it should just be replaced with a P+S16 bite attack. That combined with the overtake animus would fix up the Angelius rather nicely.

The hand cannon has a 19" threat range. The thrust has a 12" threat range.

[Soulblighter]

The hand cannon has a 19" threat range. The thrust has a 12" threat range.

hence why you use it once per game.

[OldOneEye]

The hand cannon has a 19" threat range. The thrust has a 12" threat range.
... and you can make the ranged attack from behind a forest, obstacle, other smaller-based models, etc., and does not expose the Angelius like melee attacks can. It also broadens the Angelius's effective target selection. AP for the bigger targets, and Flame Jet for solos and lighter stuff.

Out of curiosity, Soulblighter, just how did you use an Angelius in MKI? We're clearly coming at this from very different viewpoints, and thus have very different expectations of what it can-- and should-- do.

[Zerosoul]

hence why you use it once per game.

Depends on your caster, doesn't it? Charging your Angelius in doesn't always make sense, but there's usually very little harm to picking off an annoying solo or UA with the flame jet.

[Soulblighter]

Soulblighter, just how did you use an Angelius in MKI?

The same way everyone else used it. I flew it over enemy models, ignoring freestrikes, and killed their warlock. Or I attacked a model near their warlock so I could move the Angelius 3" and buy extra attacks on their warlock. Thats not really how the Angelius operates in MK2.


Depends on your caster, doesn't it? Charging your Angelius in doesn't always make sense, but there's usually very little harm to picking off an annoying solo or UA with the flame jet.

No doubt. But I would prefer the Angelius be more focused in its role as a melee killer. If I want a ranged warbeast thats what the Seraph is for. I would rather the Angelius excel at melee than be mediocre at melee and poor at range. Legion noticeably suffers from not having an effective 9 point melee beatstick so why not fix that by giving the Angelius a P+S16 bite attack?

[OldOneEye]

The same way everyone else used it. I flew it over enemy models, ignoring freestrikes, and killed their warlock. Or I attacked a model near their warlock so I could move the Angelius 3" and buy extra attacks on their warlock. Thats not really how the Angelius operates in MK2.

Oh, thanks for clearing that up, and taking the time to ask every Legion player how they used their Angelius. I don't remember doing that with mine, but I'll take your word on it.

What I do wonder, though, is how exactly you killed the warlock once your Angelius got there? I'm guessing you probably used the same MAT 6, P+S 14 Reach attack that it has now.

It's not as easy to get it there now. For that, I am sorry, but we're not going back. But it's still effective.

[Zerosoul]

No doubt. But I would prefer the Angelius be more focused in its role as a melee killer. If I want a ranged warbeast thats what the Seraph is for. I would rather the Angelius excel at melee than be mediocre at melee and poor at range. Legion noticeably suffers from not having an effective 9 point melee beatstick so why not fix that by giving the Angelius a P+S16 bite attack?

The Angelius DOES excel at melee. It's an excellent little can opener. It usually isn't the finisher on heavies, but it never was. It ALWAYS required backup.

I'm not sure what a single extra P+S 16 attack would do, especially when you'll never use it, since AP is a special attack, and it actually takes away threat range on the big boy.

[nachtnebel]

...
It's not as easy to get it there now. For that, I am sorry, but we're not going back. But it's still effective.
It's not just "not easy" to get there in Mk II, it's really hard. Usually we we have to kill the models the Angelius used to fly over now. But in that case, most other beasts would do the "assassination" better.

The Mk II Angelius is one POW 14 AP attack, thats all; it's not the free strike ignoring dragon blood driven rocket anymore. The only thing it can do now is killing light warbeasts or jacks; heavies get only hurt.
And that's my problem: Our 9pts Angelius is know only able to kill stuff 3-4 points below it's own value. That's annoying.

Additional: Look at Rhadeim!
This guy has a POW 12 AP attack with Reach, MAT 8 a 13" threat range (or 15 if he doesn't charge). He ignores free strikes and terrain, is immun to KD and has better defensive stats than our Angelius (except hp). Due to Combat Rider he has 2 additional attacks on it's charge (impact + mount) therefore he kills ARM 15/16 lights. Everything for only 5 pts.

The Angelius is 4 points more, and we get:
- less accuracy (-2 MAT)
- 2" less threat range
- +2 damage (but this simply overkills our light targets)
- Eyeless Sight
- a moderate and inaccurate ranged attack
- a useless animus
- 7 additional hitpoints (on the other hand can Dismount absorb some damage)


I don't want to complain about Rhadeim, this model is fine.
I just want to mention that there are still models in Mk II that behave like a Mk I Angelius. They have huge threat ranges, can ignore free strikes and hit hard as hell against certain targets.
If we compare our Angelius to this models, it seems like our winged rocket misses something :(

[Meatshield]

Deal 10pts of damage to Rhadeim and you have dismounted him, thats a significant difference in what he can do in his following turn.
Deal 10pts of damage to an Angelius and you may have removed an aspect temporarily. It's threat isn't reduced.

Eyeless sight should never be downplayed, the ranged attack on the Angelius is excellent for sniping, something Rhadeim can't do.

Which Lights can Rhadeim kill that the Angelius can't? Considering Rhadeim can't buy more attacks.

The Angelius is justified in being 9pts with the sole exception of it's Animus, that is all that I would want to change.

[nachtnebel]

Deal 10pts of damage to Rhadeim and you have dismounted him, thats a significant difference in what he can do in his following turn.
Deal 10pts of damage to an Angelius and you may have removed an aspect temporarily. It's threat isn't reduced.
Even dismounted you can't ignore Rhadeim, he keeps AP and Evasive. You also will need something heavy to dismount him, it's not that easy to deal 10 points of damage against DEF 14 ARM 17. If you don't dismount Rhadeim with your first attack, a lot damage from the second will be lost and you need at least a third one to kill him. But if you attacker doesn't have Reach, due to the dismount rules Rhadeim could deny him additional attacks after dismounting.
It's easier to remove some abilities from Rhadaim than from an Angelius, but to finish both you need equal damage.



Eyeless sight should never be downplayed, the ranged attack on the Angelius is excellent for sniping, something Rhadeim can't do.
True, no doubt that in some special situations snipping a model with Flame Jet and Eyeless Sight is fantastic.


Which Lights can Rhadeim kill that the Angelius can't? Considering Rhadeim can't buy more attacks.
/edit
I'm sorry, my math was wrong. Forget everything you might have read here.

But to keep it short: Due to the fact that the Angelius has to boost his ap attack against DEF 13+ and Rhadeim is almost auto-hits everyting below DEF 16 the Angelius has only one attack more. There are some beasts and jacks that would be killed by both models
/endedit



The Angelius is justified in being 9pts with the sole exception of it's Animus, that is all that I would want to change.
9 pts is okay if there would be a good animus. I'm with that.

[Necra-Chi]

To the OP:

It totally depends on the Warlock.
usually if there is a buff that gives more benefit for multiple attacks the carnivean wins, but the angel likes anything with range extension or free strike immunity.

Saeryn - angels
E-Lylyth - angels
Vayl - Either carnivean likes incite more, angel like sthe feat more
E-Thag - carnivean probably, although angels are awesome too because I find one seraph and one angle can finish a hard target.
Rhyas - Carnivean
p-Lylytyh - Carnivean

[thechimp]

cost 2, range 2 '', unkeep no, offensive yes
new animus: on this turn the angelius makes an attack, it can also fire it's flame jet at the same target.

something like gunfighter but without the .5 range

[Karam]

cost 2, range 2 '', unkeep no, offensive yes
new animus: on this turn the angelius makes an attack, it can also fire it's flame jet at the same target.

something like gunfighter but without the .5 range
You remember all animi are cast by your lock too, right? If this translated over correctly it would be too much for Ethag.

[Aseth]

don`t see the point to take Angelius now, with loss of immunity to free strikes he is seems near useless now to me.

[Garth]

I changed my mind. NEVER EVER take an Angelius (except in a second list with Saeryn perhaps).
Why ?

Rebuke-spam or the old gladiator animus (now on the Rhinodon) or Denegrah and everything else that says "no special attacks".

There too much things that take out an angelius without even damaging him. Special attacks are too easy to negate.

[nachtnebel]

The Angelius is fine with three warlocks:
- Absylonia
Force Evolution and Tenacity make him DEF 17, ARM 18 and POW 16. Due to that he can fly over enemy lines nearly as good as he did in Mk II cause most free strikes won't hit him. Additional a POW 16 AP attack annihilates some jacks or beasts.
- pLylyth
Parasite on the Angelius target allows him to take down some heaviess and most of the lights.
- Saeryn
Use her feat and fly over the enemy lines to kill stuff and/or set up for the assassination run next turn.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

I changed my mind. NEVER EVER take an Angelius (except in a second list with Saeryn perhaps).
Why ?

Rebuke-spam or the old gladiator animus (now on the Rhinodon) or Denegrah and everything else that says "no special attacks".

There too much things that take out an angelius without even damaging him. Special attacks are too easy to negate.
you may need to change his role then to infantry hunting, if that stuff is happening, which sucks hard...

i've always wanted the angelius to get a pow increase to 16. i'll admit it i don't really base that off any balancing factor. Just something i want in the case he can't thrust so he can still have a decent punch.

[thechimp]

but if he did get a thrust and also some help from casters like say vayl that would be 18 at half their Armour, that's a bit OP

but then again would be worth 9 points

[Garth]

The best thing for him would be to ALWAYS have armor piercing. No special attack. Pow 10 armor piercing would be great.

Or let him keep pow 14 and give him an animus with range self, that says that a model using this animus can choose one weapon with a pow of 14 or less. This weapon gains armor piercing for one round but rolls one damage dice less.
This would be great for the Angelius and for Casters like Rhyas, Lylyth and so on. But it would not make the high pow weapon of Thagrosh better for example. This would make him so much better, perhaps even worth 9-10 points...

Garth

[nachtnebel]

This animus won't work. It had do be one fury to enable the Angelius to use it and still kill something around 9 points. 2 fury would mean only the charge and one additional attack without boosting anything. But on the other hand, e.g. Rhyas could get AP for 1 fury every turn. This would be way to good.

[Garth]

2 Fury. And this would make free charges (Sorceress or Nephilim soldier, underplayed models..) great :-).

Believe me, this animus would work...it would make the Angelius great :-).

3 Attacks + damage boost would deal 26,5 damage to an arm 20 jack. Only with the free charge of Course. Without 19 damage. And he could make armor piercing shooting attacks of course.

Now without free charge he deals 20 damage to an arm 20 target, with free charge 23,5 and has no piercing on his shooting attack.
It wouldn't break him, but it would help a lot. No more special attack (that can miss...), not only against the first target a good attack and so on.
It could be too good with E-Lylyth. Could.