What's the first thing you noticed about MkII Circle?

[LEJKaya]

Kaya now has spd 7.

Then that we now have battlegroups...

bah, wrong forum. That'll learn me to look around.

[Brandubh]

First thing I really celebrated was Woldwardens at Fury 4! Overall, I'm very pleased with the changes to Circle thusfar.

[Dantes]

That the Warpwolves lost Reactive Warping.

[UnderWood]

That the seem to have failed utterly with kromac

utterly utterly failed in every way

his feat still does nothing against warmachine brutality is nerfed to hell since you can only cast it on your battlegroup yay for berserk warbeasts and human form kromac.
beastial nerfed to hell beast form worse spelllist worse.

every aspect of kromac is worse except his fury in beast form.

an utter failure

[UnderWood]

woldwyrds got gunfighter :) but arcane killer got nerfed it only gets the damage boost on models directly hit does this mean no more boosted aoes?

the gnarlhorn got badass sweet animus more attacks better slam rules

shadowhorn got even better

pureblood can give our warbeasts PHANTOM SEEKER pew pew wyrds and can finally warp for str

the pureblood is going to be a BRUTAL ranged option seriously 2 melee attacks phantom seeker and a PS14 ranged attack

the hell warpwolves cost 9

they made our heavys expensive

wardens are no longer limited to offensive spells

reeves are exactly the same

BLOODTRACKERS ARE WEAPON MASTERS WITH THERE RANGED ATTACKS I DIDN"T EVEN KNOW THAT WAS POSSIBLE

Bloodweavers = awesome

Ravagers lost 2 ARM gained MAT more heart tokens attakcment makes them brutal they can now kill warjacks

no more devouring :(
druids with ua immune to fire electricity and cold
no more nudge the reason I was taking them now :(
battle wizard? seriously? woo my druids charge you
Can heal constructs


woldstalkers 1 point to expensive imo

No more made of stone setry stones are gun bait but devour magic got WAY WAY BETTER

OH GOD YES LOTF ****ING AWESOME OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD YES

morraig no cohort with with WoO and he's light cav now why god why

so bonegrinders lost transfer spirit but keot craft talisman
yay this will really help kaya so now she's back to being an assasination caster with low PS that super awesome

mmm swamp gobbers are much worse

[MCPeePants]

Definitely the new Lord of the Feast. I've always really liked the guy, but never felt all that good about using him in games. Now with the much more reliable shifter attack, my favourite maneuver of hitting something with the raven, teleporting to the other side of it, then attacking the juicy target behind will work much better. And of course thresher.

Other than that, I quite like all the living warbeasts. They handled the Argus quite well, and I like the new Warpwolf. I'm a bit leery about the Woldwarden and Megalith, however. Geomancy's usefulness will depend steeply on whether it's 1 FURY to be able to use the spells, and then the number of FURY to cast it (looking at the wording, this seems likely), or just like the animus cost. The warden doesn't suffer much, really, since he wouldn't be casting a spell and using the FURY to attack in the same turn anyhow, but that was sort of Megalith's thing. Now, paying even two fury to put stone skin on himself is pretty costly. I'm also not sure how I feel about 2 points for a couple stat points and weights of stone in exchange for that great chain attack. It really is quite good.

As an aside, anyone know if friendly animi the warlock can cast count as his spells for the purposes of Geomancy? That'd be nice.

[Myantek]

That the seem to have failed utterly with kromac

utterly utterly failed in every way

his feat still does nothing against warmachine brutality is nerfed to hell since you can only cast it on your battlegroup yay for berserk warbeasts and human form kromac.
beastial nerfed to hell beast form worse spelllist worse.

every aspect of kromac is worse except his fury in beast form.

an utter failure

I think you need to reread Kromac, Underwood. I agree that Ravenous for battlegroup only is a disappointment but his feat removes focus from warjacks in the same way he removes Fury from warbeasts.

Mohsar on the other hand... I don't understand why Mohsar's feat doesn't include "prevent warcaster from allocating focus".

[Tensai]

I agree that Ravenous for battlegroup only is a disappointment but his feat removes focus from warjacks in the same way he removes Fury from warbeasts.
I rarely see any focus on opponent's warjacks in my turn... so what's the difference?

Vigilance is now range: self
And (YAY!) Constructs can run now!

[Sheik Yerbouti]

That the seem to have failed utterly with kromac

utterly utterly failed in every way


Signed. Dunno why they even changed the feat as it won´t affect warjacks anyway.


I think you need to reread Kromac, Underwood. I agree that Ravenous for battlegroup only is a disappointment but his feat removes focus from warjacks in the same way he removes Fury from warbeasts.

Yeah, but that´s point blank useless. I mean, what warjack has focus in my turn?

[LEJKaya]

I mean, what warjack has focus in my turn?

I can think of two... out of god knows how many.

[Dark Fledgling]

First thing I really noticed was that the Warpwolf was now a "Feral" Warpwolf. Then I noticed he went up to MAT 7. Then I noticed he went up 1 POW. Then I noticed he got a bite attack. Then I noticed Warp speed was now +2 speed not +2" of move.

Only then did I realize he lost reactive warping and his chain attack.

Next I noticed kaya's new pack hunters and my mind began doing all sorts of somersaults. : )

-DF

[Devilsquid]

First thing I noticed: Baldur has reach. Booyah!

[dboeren]

The first thing I noticed is that Kaya is super-awesome!

Soothing Song, +2 MAT for her beasts, just an all around wonderful beast caster. Dammit, I'm going to get sucked into running Circle again, I know it.

[caramelthunder]

After reading over Trolls, my heart broke. Then I read pKaya and looked at the beasts and did a 180. I want to run pKaya with 3 Argus minimum! At this point I'm loving my Circle way more than my Trolls.

[Zyrael]

Underwood as rarely as we agree, I'm completely of the same mindset. My first thought was What... the... HELL... did they do to Kromac... WHY? what national events was he crushing? eVlad took less of a beating!


LOTF is BAMF!
Feral Warpwolf is fun.
Warpwolves (who started it) can no longer reactive warp, but a warjack can.
Geomancy is a misguided effort.
Sentry Stones are restricted to 1 caster (Baldur).
Megalith is restricted to 1 caster (Baldur).
Ravagers are epically more squishy, as lower arm but more boxes just means they can be taken out more reliably by weaker attacks.
Morvahna is STILL pointless... actually she's WORSE.
Morraig is BAMF!
Wolf Riders may actually be the worst unit in the game!

[NecroticDischarge]

Kayas +2 to attacks for her battle group and ghostly mat 9 warpwolves. I can't count how many caster kills I have gotten with nightmare and this combo the only difference is the warpy can buy more attacks and hits harder.

[Mutton]

Lord of the Feast; first thing I checked.

[Talking Head]

Honestly, it feels like they put effort into Kaya/pKaya, and pKruger, and then just sort of ran out of time on the rest of the warlocks. They read like a paper you'd write in college. Technically all the relevant points were addressed, but it reads more like an effort to finish a checklist of points before a deadline, than a summation of points to arrive at a nuanced address of a big idea.

"Look, having a feat not work against 50% of the factions in the game is bad, so we'll make it work against all the factions in the game". Well yes, but really, do you think draining focus off a warjack really does that in a real way? Or are you just scratching a bullet point off you to-do list?

[smcwatt]

I noticed all of the elemental immunities with the Druid UA and the Wayfarer. No more Legion strafing fire attacks.

SMc.

[Zyrael]

Honestly, it feels like they put effort into Kaya/pKaya, and pKruger, and then just sort of ran out of time on the rest of the warlocks. They read like a paper you'd write in college. Technically all the relevant points were addressed, but it reads more like an effort to finish a checklist of points before a deadline, than a summation of points to arrive at a nuanced address of a big idea.

"Look, having a feat not work against 50% of the factions in the game is bad, so we'll make it work against all the factions in the game". Well yes, but really, do you think draining focus off a warjack really does that in a real way? Or are you just scratching a bullet point off you to-do list?

You hit the nail on the head! Much of the circle material, especially the casters (pkaya and pkrueger aside) feel like lazy/rushed mindless efforts to finish instead of complete the project.

[Bakemono]

You hit the nail on the head! Much of the circle material, especially the casters (pkaya and pkrueger aside) feel like lazy/rushed mindless efforts to finish instead of complete the project.

I have to sadly agree. However, I'm hoping this is because they were 1) getting it out to us as early as possible, and 2) actually going to LISTEN to us when we suggest changes and corrections.

It is my opinion that the Field Test for Warmachine was a token gesture. Very little changed from the Field Test to the final version. It seemed that what they really wanted us to do was spellcheck and such, rather than give input on the rules and stats. This may be because they had been working on that longer and, in theory at least, tested more if themselves and probably were already happy with it.

If they did rush this (and I think it is clear they did) it hopefully means they will really listen to the feedback and adjust more of the rules. Granted, there are always going to be choads who simply want MORE MORE MORE for their own faction, but I think most of us are interested in the game overall and balance. For example, I'm a Circle player (and I love Kaya) but that doesn't mean I support "Packhunters" in the current format. I think it is broken as hell. It would be generous at (+1) to every Warbeast in her control area. Right now (at +2) it the equal of a "Feat" that is in constant effect. :) I really can't imagine why anyone would play any Circle Warlock other than Primal Kaya, Baldur, or Kruegar on the competitive level, and of those three I think Primal Kaya is always going to be the hardest to deal with. It will need to be fixed. Just like the other Warlocks all need improvements.

[Lex Icon]

Constructs got worse, almost across the board. The Wyrd might still be worth it, not sure. And most of the fuzzies got better.

[Ancient_of_MuMu]

Constructs got worse, almost across the board. The Wyrd might still be worth it, not sure. And most of the fuzzies got better.
The watcher did drop a lot in points though.

To me it feels like we lost a lot of our denial abilities that allowed us to control the tabletop. Rough terrain no longer preventing charges hurt our woldwardens a lot, so we need to use models to get in the way, but we can't do that now because we have lost made of stone, so that our stones will be removed too easily. Arkane killer lost a fair bit of punch and people will no longer think twice about putting upkeeps on units. Baldurs feat was watered down, and so was Kromac's bestial and the watcher's vigilance. In fact the only denial thing we have that got better was the sentry stone's fury sucking, but the changes to that make it more of an iffy proposition. I don't deny that a lot of these were undercosted or overpowered and needed tweaking, but losing all of them is a big hurt to the faction.

[Dizzy]

To be honest my list of things that I wouldn't be happy with this being final bar tweaks is pretty short:

Kromac (doesn't really do anything. Bar his Feat vs Hordes he seems mostly superfluous as anything but a placeholder warlock)
Morvhana (works to a degree but can't revive enough models to compete vs armies not all living)
Sentry Stone (CMD6 is too much of a leash, needs to go back to 10 to be effective or pick up stealth for unit while no fury points on it)
Reeves (needs more Range, Swift Hunter, etc. Just something so they don't suck without a heavily forested table)

My list of models that don't seem to do what I thought they did is quite small too:
Epic Kaya (no longer can she kill stuff herself at all, not a real problem but she seems to have no point to use Spirit Shift. balanced rules wise but could do with that special something)
War Wolf (Balanced as is but being able to flank with other war wolves gave them a cool wolf pack feel)
Morraig (Just a little odd, perhaps a tiny bit underpowered but not really. Seems like he wants to be heavy cav or have a tiny bit more to do with WoO)

None of these are irreprable or unusable in their current incarnations but I do think all these models bear specific attention in the FT so proper constructive feedback can be given to the DC, Soles and the team about exactly why the community feels by and large they don't work.

[Talking Head]

I agree about the loss of denial, that was another thing I noticed.

Circle always kept itself alive by being an infantry lawnmower with a lot of power attacks and tricky mobility, and combining all of those to keep itself out of reach.

Killing infantry isn't as awesome as it used to be with the higher number of warjacks out there. With shake effects, power attacks are not going to keep heavies off of you like they could in MK I. With the changes to charging, and with the toning down of stuff like shifting stones, the ability to out manuver got toned down as well. What seems to be missing is the new areas of capability for Circle.

A lot of stuff in Circle got less useful, but not much seemed to pick up new tricks or get more useful. Yes, stuff like the heat-seeking forked lighting, the Woldwarden spell spam, the four inch reach, and the wolf riders were going to be toned down and didn't need to be 'compensated' for. However, the fact is that throwing a Juggernaught won't keep it from coming right back in and attacking you the next turn in MK II. What did Circle get to deal with the new reality of the game?

[Dark Fledgling]

I've seen some people speaking about the loss of previously well know combos and nothing to replace them yet. Well, heres one.

Virility (Shadowhorn's animus) on the Gnarlhorn (under his own animus). 11" slam range at MAT 8 without spending any additional fury knocks back the target 5"-10" and can follow up and buy extra attacks.

Thats in a vacuum without taking into account any nifty warlock abilities or other sources of awesome.

[Talking Head]

I've seen some people speaking about the loss of previously well know combos and nothing to replace them yet. Well, heres one.

Virility (Shadowhorn's animus) on the Gnarlhorn (under his own animus). 11" slam range at MAT 8 without spending any additional fury knocks back the target 5"-10" and can follow up and buy extra attacks.

Thats in a vacuum without taking into account any nifty warlock abilities or other sources of awesome.

It isn't that the old combos got moved. Circle always has been good at making power attacks.

Even after a huge slam like that, the target can just shake the KD and then charge you right back. Which is the observation: being good at power attacks isn't as good for the Circle as it was during MK I.

[TheEagle82]

The first thing i noticed was that at first glance, my favorite faction just went through the floor. But then, i just kept riling myself (currently at 17 fury) so i have to wait a day and go back a re-read the cards before making any judgements.

My list of stuff that irked me:
Bloodtrackers
Shifting stones
Ravagers
Epic Kaya
Wolf Riders
Druids
LotF

I'll get back to y'all after i've thouraghly read the rules and cards for all faction. Couldnt bring myself to read the Legion ones after the shocking Circle ones.

But until i get a feel for hordes as a whole, i cant really make any comments.

First impressions are always hard to shake though, and this one wasent good.

[Conviviacr]

Amen. The biggest reason we are waiting a week to take feedback is so that players have time to digest the changes and play with the models. We will make changes for the betterment of the game but expect players to be informed with their feedback. We want to know what possible changes would heighten your enjoyment of the game.

However, please keep in mind that there is a lot here to take in and while I don't want to undermine anyone's right to post their knee-jerk responses, I will say that with actual play you may see things you do not see now. Play enables one to test their theories and refine their feedback.

It is worth considering that this stuff has gone through considerable internal play testing. If we had not found value in it you would not be seeing it now. You may not agree with every decision, but it should be kept in mind that unless you have been one of my play testers for the last six months, you are presently a novice. I mean that sincerly. You may be a fast learner, but it is highly unlikely you presently have a full an accurate picture of the balance of either your favorite faction or the whole of the Mk II environment. This is the voice of experience, after months of play testing I know the Field Test will teach me plenty.

So please play, have fun, and give us your feedback so we can make the best game possible.

And it is statements like this that scare the crap out of me with my feelings from the larger global changes. At least with the Warmachine Mark II test we had several statements going in as to what the basic philosophy behind the redesign was... With this we are shooting in the dark and have heard less then squat. Post about us not really knowing what is going on, play to see, and obviously these rules have merit if you are seeing them now are infuriating. "We have knowledge you do not so trust us." is not a freaking answer. What was the core idea behind changes for Hordes? Make beasts weaker? Make fury less effective? That is what it looks like from the global changes, was that likely the actual goal? Probably not but if you do not tell us we will not know! You told us before the Warmachine the basic ideas were streamlining, warjack improvement, and changes to out of turn abilities.

[LEJKaya]

You told us before the Warmachine the basic ideas were streamlining, warjack improvement, and changes to out of turn abilities.

To be honest the changes to hordes also do those three things...

[Conviviacr]

To be honest the changes to hordes also do those three things...

If they are looking to the other game to improve warjacks Huston we have a problem. And if both games redesign had the exact same design goals: streamline, changes to out of turn, and improving warjacks... then I guess hordes players really are the second class citizens so many of the truly irate seem to believe we are.

[CyberKnight]

First thing I noticed was a distinct lack of my favorite toys.

Devouring on the Druids - Gone.
Spellstrike - replaced with it feeble cousin Geomancy
Lightning tendrils + long range WoO charge - Nerfed by changes on both ends
eKaya - stripped of all her personal offensive abilities (Against all Odds, extra attacks on hits - gone)
Kromac + Wolf Riders - Brutality limited and wolf riders stripped of their special rules.

I gotta say, I expected most of those to be reduced in effectiveness as combos, but I did NOT expect to lose them all together or both sides of the combo to take hits. It's making it tough for me to make test lists, as I'm having to throw most of my favorites out the window.

edit to pull back on the negativity: I'm not saying any models are useless by any means. I'm just saying those were a big portion of what I liked my Circle Army for. I'm left scratching my head and saying "Well, what am I supposed to do now?"

[Pseudog]

Well, I actually noticed Krueger's immunity to lightning first :P

[MeroTZ]

First thing I noticed was that Epic Kaya no longer had any offensive ability. And I was sad.