The Unfortunate Lady Morvahna.

[Amarel]

I've not read a thread bigging her up once, so far. And when I've played her she's been, at best, a little underwhelming. So, bearing in mind the following quote from Mr Soles:


We have discussed her a couple times and we agree: We both like her. That is as players as well as developers.

That is of course not to say she is perfect or that she will not change at all, but we have no burning need to change anything on her at this time.

But also the fact that the developers have shown that they listen and discuss proper feedback on models, I just wanted to check that people are feedbacking on her. I don't want to leave her on the shelf but right now she's only performing quite well against optimal match-ups and very poorly against anything with a decent amount of Undead or Tough.

Keep her delicious fruit pert and bouncy!

[Mavwick]

She was one of my first submitted feedback forms.

She needs a lot of help. Get that feat working on all enemy models. We've got enough crap that's too dependent on the enemy being living models. I don't want another warlock or warcaster ever again to just start a game and say "my feat is useless."
Fluff does not need to equal rules, here. I think the feat is quite good, but she doesn't have enough else to make up for it if the opponent is undead. This isn't just Cryx. Now great swaths of Skorne models are looking to be undead through upkeeps.

Harvest as an active ability instead of an upkeep might seem workable, as well as it triggering on a living model's boxed status so she could use it with her spells and feat.

For four points, her only offensive spell is still screwed against undead armies and anyone with access to stave off death. (Tough, Martyrdom, etc) It should trigger the AOE on boxed, and work with undead models.
Again, fluff and rules aren't so necessary when we're talking about the bulk of a Warlock's fury load. You probably boosted the attack roll, so she's not getting anything else done that turn.

Wurmwood needs to return. Badly. She needs a cheaper offensive spell and it was one of the greatest support spells in Circle, before. It worked wonders to mitigate the biggest weakness in the faction - high armor targets. Without Wurmwood, she's in a funny position where Woldwardens have almost no excuse to be with her. I find that aspect should make a developer unhappy.

Since the start, I've felt a "burning need" to get her changed.

[DaGrimOne]

I didn't send feedback, as I sadly don't have time to play at all, but from looking at her, I get the feeling that she still has all the weaknesses that made her unusable in competetive play, and additionally lost her biggest strengh, Regrowth.

With only 7 Fury and no possibility to break that maximum, Revive just isn't all that good. And how good the rest of her is depends way to much on what army you face (the living-model-thing).

It's very sad, because by fluff and character, she is my favorite Circle warlock. I love her concept and what she should do. But as she is now, I can hardly find myself choosing her above our other options.

Even against living infantry spam armies, her optimal match-up, she pales in comparison to Krueger.

[Zyrael]

Regrowth was a strength AND weakness in Mk I.

With the plethora of upkeep removal that only got MORE prevalent she was dependent on a crutch with a crack in it.

She needed to change.

My Idea was simply this. make it an ability.

Morvahna's blessing - After deployment but before the beginning of the game, Morvahna may choose a friendly circle unit to be blessed. Each turn after leaching fury Morvahna may pay 1 fury each to return a living grunt model to that unit, that was killed in the last round. Returned models come back with 1 wound. The model must be placed in Morvahna's control area, and in coherency.

She also desperately needs to stop counter-synergizing with HERSELF... I mean that is just silly.

[LEJKaya]

I really liked the Soul Tokens for harvest idea.

They don't even have to be "Soul" tokens but harvest would be (As a spell or ability)
"When a model is disabled in Morvahnas control* area she gains a morv token. She can have up to X* tokens at any time. After leaching she may spend tokens to gain fury or revive dead models*"

*Numbers and range to be determined.


I also think she should be able to heal warrior models, either with a spell or just a rule that lets her heal them with her fury.

EoL is a 4 cost spell that does not work against three and two halfs of factions.
It needs to work on non living models and preferably ignore Tough. Currently for 4 fury its quite poor.

wurmwood is needed, or at least another 2 point offensive spell. She currently has no use for wardens, and while I'm not against some beasts working better with some warlocks...there should be no warlock that has literally no use for some beast.
Also it was her way of helping with damage on tough targets and with it being 12" range was a great support spell for her to use from safety.

I can only imagine it was removed because it gives a 1 point offensive spell in combo with harvest... well good tbh!

[Amarel]

I also think she should be able to heal warrior models, either with a spell or just a rule that lets her heal them with her fury.
Rather than straight up heal, perhaps a life-leech? Transfer health from one model to another.

I quite like the idea of killing a WoO to heal a Ravager :). Or life-leeching from a Wolf Rider to resurrect a Blood Tracker.

"Soul Tokens" would be nice. Or even, if the idea is to push her up as aggressively as possible, let Harvest give her up to double Fury. Maybe I don't player her riskily enough but I rarely get much use from Harvest right now.

I do think her direction is right - she's just fitting together properly, yet, for me.

[Dantes]

Regarded that I haven't played more then a handful of games with her she seems fine to me. She is a very upfront infantry caster though. If you take more then one beast with her then you aren't playing her right.

If anything I'd drop Eruption of Life for Incite or something similar.

I am surprised however that Harrow remained on her weapon. Allows for some really crazy shenanigans.

[Faradon]

I am surprised however that Harrow remained on her weapon. Allows for some really crazy shenanigans.

Usually isn't that bad.. because if you are using Harrow to go for a kill you are betting pretty much all or nothing... but isn't that what WM/Hordes was always about? Playing like you had a pair? :)

In any event... I am REALLY disappointed with the idea that she is "fine as is" We really all need to feedback over and over and make sure we get heard on this. What will really piss me off is if they decide to "fix" her with an epic or alternate version or whatever. Trying to get me to buy a new model to fix something that should be working fine is NOT a solution.

[dkindt]

Morvahna needs Restoration to buff defense instead of armor. Gamebreaking? no. But when you are talking about reviving troops as 'her thing' rarely does the extra armor help much. Allow Restoration to up def by 2, and your starting to get a caster that looks like something. I would mind paying 3 for revive a whole lot less if it had any chance for survival at all.

As for balance of this spell, its still one less +def than Iron Flesh but should still benefit from the situational ability to occasionally heal your caster.

[PPS_Mod:Not Dice]

My main sticking point with Morvahna is Revive. It's lifted from Testament, whose only upper limit on the number of troopers he can Revive is how many were destroyed in the previous turn (thanks to Gatekeeper). Having played Testament, it wasn't unusual for me to Revive 3-5 troopers in one or two turns of a game in preparation for the feat turn.

With Morvahna, she has no way of breaking her 7-fury cap, and thus she can only Revive two troopers at most and at a near complete drain of her resources. Admittedly Harvest helps refill her Fury, but it doesn't change the fact that the spell is simply very limited in what it can do because of her Fury stat.

I realize that Regrowth was a damned bargain compared to Revive, getting one trooper back for one Fury to Revive's one for three. Still, I saw Testament Reviving just as many troopers as Morvahna tended to, most of the time anyway. So my suggestion was this: Give her back Regrowth, but make her pay 2 Fury to return one trooper. It still limits her to a maximum of three troopers returned, but at least she's not competing with her during-activation Fury pool.

[Bakemono]

Eh. If Mr. Soles and them like her as she stands (and who knows why) that is probably how she will remain. I think she is our worst Warlock by far. There are situations, certain matchups in which she shines, but situational Warlocks don't thrill me. I want my Warlock to be able to perform "adequate" at least, no matter who I'm up against. It really tears me up because I like the model. I like the fluff. I like some of the things she can do. She just isn't ready for the "show." You can't field her in a tournament with any hope of going all the way. Sure, I might break her out for the odd, fun "pick up" game but that is about it. Even there I feel kind of dirty. Against what she is does best she is hell on wheels. It feels like she either dominates in her little niche, or is just horrendous the rest of the time.

[Dantes]

Just because I'm curious what beasts do you guys field with her?

[Dark Schneider]

Feat too situational.. and only offensive spell too reliant on what the opponent brings to the table. only for living model..

where is the fifth spell? o_O 7 fury for 4 spell?
ALL other caster 5 fury 3 spell; 6 fury 4 spell (only Grissel Bloodsong have 2 but awesome spell); 7 fury 5 spell; 8 fury 6 spell.

morvahna need moooore sinergy.. she a low cost offensive spell for geomancy.. not only for living model.. give back wurmwood T_T

[Quicksil]

It was a couple of weeks ago .. but I tried her with a Warden (Before the changes), Warpwolf, and Watcher.

Watcher was counter productive since its attacks remove from play, which sucks because Vigilance is still nice with her.

I used the Warden to cast EoL via Geomancy. That's not possible anymore. As said, there's no reason to run a Warden with her, that needs to change.

Warpwolf was there just to take out a Heavy.

For troops Ive tried her with WoldStalkers, she does well with them. Bloodtrackers, that game didn't go well. And I had Ravagers and Shifting Stones in both lists.

She does well with anything with Gang (Ravagers + UA, Bloodweavers, Wolf Riders and Wolves), because you can just revive a single model to place to get that extra +2 Attack and Damage.

Feat is counter productive to Harvest, though you do get Fury for anything killed by the AoE.

As for her ARM buff, I agree its counter productive to Revive. I noticed that too in a game, I was counting on the Ravagers dying, and planned for it, but because of the ARM spell they lived. At that point in the game, I had nothing to revive. A DEF buff would be nice, the only thing I can think of is Iron Flesh but man that gives us some insane DEF on our troops and casters.

She should definately get Wurmwood back. I think that's a must and makes Wardens a viable choice with her again.

[bushman101]

man, I was really hoping for a Morvahna change.

I like her feat, her abilities are okay.
But her spell list is terrible.

I already have posted my disdain for her.
I'll just say again that she needs fixed.

[DeusxMachina]

I can only hope that the reason they're not changing her is that she's getting a kick *** epic version that's going to be great and they don't want to step on its toes. *dreams*

[Corpazious]

The following is the feedback I submitted on Morvahna:

Morvahna is almost at the right place.
I've used her many times with mixed results. Generally, if the opposing army had lots of single-wound models (or squishy solos), then all her Spells and her Feat worked well. If the opposing army had lots of Jacks/Beasts or multi-wound models (especially Trolls), then Restoration and Revive became the only effective things she could do. Every Caster/Lock has their strengths and weaknesses, but it still felt a little lopsided.

The other general concern I have is with the conflict between her Feat's "boxing of enemy model" preventing Harvest's "destruction of enemy model". I was able to get around it somewhat through upkeeping Harvest and then killing some enemy models before activating Morvahna and popping Feat. Fluffwise, it makes sense, but does her Feat interfere with Harvest too much?

Feat
There is no reason why plants can't feed on rotting flesh, so her Feat should be changed from:
"boxes a living enemy model..."
To:
"boxes a non-Construct (includes Warjacks) non-Incorporeal model..."

Spells
Eruption of Life - It is expensive for a spell that only gets it's effects if it "boxes a living enemy model" If it doesn't, then I just spent 5 or 6 Fury (with boosting) for nothing. Eruption should either be changed to that on a miss it creates a deviating 4" AOE Forest that does no damage or healing, or lower the cost to 3 Fury. Also, as with her Feat, change the boxing target to "non-Construct non-Incorporeal model..." as well.

Harvest - Other Circle players want Harvesting to surpass her Fury stat, but that may be too powerful unless it has the addendum that:
Morvahna can surpass her Fury stat with Harvest, but at the end of her activation, she loses all Fury beyond her normal maximum.
That would allow her to more effectively use her Spells, specifically Revive, which I'll get to later.

Restoration - I only ever use it for the +2 ARM, since whatever the spell is on is too far away from Morvahna to heal her. I suggest changing the spell to be +2 STR and +2 ARM, without the healing effect. She is supposed to be Circle's infantry Caster, but Circle's infantry doesn't do much against high ARM models (the Ravagers almost do enough). The +2 STR would give enough of a bonus to scratch those models just a bit more.

Revive - It's GREAT that it's not an upkeep spell anymore, but it costs too much for it's effect. Bringing back 2 models a turn with her doing nothing else (but upkeeping) is not enough. Either allow Harvest to bring her above her Fury Stat, or lower Revive's cost to 2 (and change it's name, since Revive is already in Warmachine).

Even if all of these suggested changes are done, Morvahna will still have a harder time against armies with lots of Beasts/Jacks and also Trolls, but it should balance out more in the end.

[Zyrael]

I can only hope that the reason they're not changing her is that she's getting a kick *** epic version that's going to be great and they don't want to step on its toes. *dreams*

But that doesn't fix THIS caster. Epics don't fix normals. They are different casters. Each should stand on their own merits.

Morvahna doesn't. She's at BEST a paper weight... and not a good one. She's too light, lopsided, tips over easily... then she rolls.

[Faradon]

I can only hope that the reason they're not changing her is that she's getting a kick *** epic version that's going to be great and they don't want to step on its toes. *dreams*


But that doesn't fix THIS caster. Epics don't fix normals. They are different casters. Each should stand on their own merits.

Morvahna doesn't.

I'm right with you Zyrael. That's exactly what I said a bunch of posts back... I think it's complete bullsh** for them to put out a new model (which we have to buy) to fix something we already own... and anyone wanting for that to be the solution only feeds the problem.

As I've also said before... I'd really love to see the flowery vaccum they are testing her in. I'm guessing they test her against an all infantry skorne (pre-last update) list. I'm sure she looks fine against that.... It is when you actually field her against lists people actually play that she becomes worthless.

[Bakemono]

I'm right with you Zyrael. That's exactly what I said a bunch of posts back... I think it's complete bullsh** for them to put out a new model (which we have to buy) to fix something we already own... and anyone wanting for that to be the solution only feeds the problem.

I agree with this sentiment, although I don't think that is Privateers game plan. What I would like is for them to make a ruling that allows us to use either sculpt of a model (whichever we like better) as long as the opponent knows clearly which version we are using. I would use the Epic Stormlord scupt for Stormwrath any day. :) I'm sure as hell not going to actually use it for Stormlord unless something big changes. :)

[JarredHTG]

Affinity: Revive - this model spends one less fury when casting this spell.

Add to that some fixes to the boxed vs Harvest problem and tweak feat to work on enemy models and she's good to go.

[Faradon]

Only problem I can see with "when model is boxed" is that she would then generate tokens every time someone made a tough roll...

[magi]

I still think it would be interesting for he to lose Harvest and Revive and gain a soul token-like ability that lets her revive friendly models or gain fury.

Or just give her Martyrdom.

[Blaque]

Only problem I can see with "when model is boxed" is that she would then generate tokens every time someone made a tough roll...
Disabled happens before Boxed. A model which makes its Tough roll never gets to Boxed and so would not produce fury for Harvest.

And stuff.

[Zyrael]

I ALMOST get the impression devs are hoping our apathy bout Morvahna and eKrueger means they have two less things to get to. Warlocks, after all, take the most effort to balance.

The problem is, i STILL can't get really motivated to think about these two lumps of pewter at the bottom of my mini case.

[LEJKaya]

eKrueger got that response from me as well as most of my opponents. Just can't be bothered, he's not fun.

Morvahna though I will make the effort because I think she can be something more.
She needs work and I hope enough people feedback it so she gets it.

[txiab]

I am surprised to hear that the developers think that Morv is where she needs to be. Have they specifically stated anything about eKrueger? Both these casters are missing something.

[dkindt]

I've said it before, but Morvahna would really benefit from a +def buff . Seems really simple to me, Restoration could easily be either changed to be +2def instead of +2arm, or just toss it out the window for Iron Flesh like someone else suggested in the thread (+3 def on a unit is ... sick. It might be a little over the top, hence, the suggestion to be +2 defense with the situational healing effect). It would up the worth of revive in my mind (to the overcosted 3 points that it is).

Other than that, she could really use a low cost offensive spell and then she's probably fine (tho only testing would tell that for sure.)

[Voltimor]

What about spell that can exchance souls..
Fluff wise Morv and Mohsar don't care alot about circle troopers

Found this home brew in one of Skorne topics.

A Soul for a Soul ? Cost: 2 RNG: Self AOE: Ctrl POW: - UP: No OFF: No
Remove a living friendly Faction Grunt from play in this model control area and return one destroyed friendly Faction Grunt to play with one unmarked damage box. It must be placed in this modelʼs control area in formation and within 3˝ of another model in its unit.

With this kind of spell your opponent need to rethink what he/she is going to do kill circle elites chance they come back at the cost of few WoO or kill the WoO so the elite's unites cannot be restored that easy.

[fildrigar]

Revive could be workable at 3 fury, if it was an ability that took place at the beginning of the turn. Then she could potentially refill her fury with Harvest. ( Though, really, Harvest should be an always on ability, too. )

[Amarel]

Lots of cool ideas here. I have to admit that I've been a bit slack on Morvahna testing recently as I've been testing out various double Thumper lists with my Trolls.

But I'm hoping to get in a game with the following list in the next couple of days: Morv, Pureblood, min Bloodtrackers, min Wolf Riders, Druids, Blackclad, Shifting Stones.

And I'll try out one game with the Beautiful Fruit tokens idea and one with simply adding Wurmwood to her spell list (if I get a game against Cryx I'll try her Feat as working on Undead, too, but I don't think that I will do).

[MeroTZ]

Ran Morv today, got stomped hard. She has no way of boosting her troops hitting power, and no real effective way of keeping them alive. She's a troop caster in theory only; she has one ok buff, a revive spell that lacks the obvious mechanic of being able to feed it a ton of fury, and a means for getting fury without warbeasts. She has no universally effective offensive spell, and a mediocre and relatively useless-for-its-cost nuke. Her feat is ok, but is often unusable.

She needs more than a little work.

[ColdYinTiger]

I'm surprised that she stomped so badly in the change. I know she had annoying little tricks like the crazy revive tricks but without testaments abilities of gathering souls she cant function like she should. They need a different version for hordes as the two casters that use it cant really make much function of it.

Her feat should effect living and undead models too. She really needs more then what they are giving her. I trashed her with Borka and he needs a lot of work right now too. She just has no great focus anymore since she is still focused around being an Infantrymachine killer in a world were they focus changed to larger, harder targets.

[Conviviacr]

Well overall I am rather pleased with most of the models, Morv, the woldwatcher, and the sentry stones are the only ones that I have little to no use for now. The warwolf is weak but for a 1 point solo I can work with him and it just goes up from there imo.

[Faradon]

She needs more than a little work.

QFT.

A lot of people here singing the same tune:

Morvahna, Woldwatcher, Sentry Stone... those are my top 3 as well.. but it doesn't look good.

[Mavwick]

I know Fury and Focus numbers are a huge factor in this game, but I still think the best change for her would be to jump up to 8 Fury. Revive starts working twice a turn with a little wiggle room for upkeeps and transfers.
Bring back Wurmwood, give her 8 Fury and fix the janky problems she has against undead and with her own anti-synergy.

If 7 Fury has to stay, I'd almost prefer Harvest to take her own models for Fury, as she could more often theoretically blow all her Fury for Revive and gain some back for transfers during the opponent's turn. It also fixes all the problems she has not using Harvest with her own spell and feat.

I don't want to see her revive spell turn into any kind of upkeep. Towards the end of Mk-II, I'd shelved her, with many armies bringing solutions to upkeeps. It works really well in this form but it's just much too expensive for a 7 Fury warlock. (Example of it working well: My first game with her in Mk-II, I charged my own model to get some key Revives on Wolf Riders far up the field to finish off Shae. Can't do that with an upkeep.)

If +2ARM is what they want her to have for troop support, then I'd love it to just lose its individuality and turn into Inviolable Resolve, like Kromac. Fearless does a lot more for this army than the odd idea of surrounding her with troops that heal her. I'd love to see Defender's Ward or Iron Flesh, but Circle just doesn't get those kinds of buffs.

She kept her sword's ability because all Circle Warlocks have some built-in mechanic to assassinate an enemy. Kreuger flys there and stabs or shoots, Baldur and Kaya teleport, etc. She has this odd mechanic where she'd be able to charge a key model, attack it a few times and sit on one transfer that might finish the job. (Killed Irusk with it, once.)

[Blaque]

I'd almost say Defender's Ward with her. Before folks cry the broken that is with DEF 17 Wolfriders though, I thinkt he fact that there are ARM 20 cats running around or ARM 22 Cetratii to me lowers my sympathy to that sort of thing. If she's going to support our troops, have her go all-out on it damn it.

I thinkw e all agree on Wurmwood or some other cheap offensive spell. So not much else to add there.

Harvest letting her break her cap would suddenly make Revive useable with her.

And that's a few things off the top of my head I guess.

ANd stuff.

[dkindt]

I'd almost say Defender's Ward with her. Before folks cry the broken that is with DEF 17 Wolfriders though, I thinkt he fact that there are ARM 20 cats running around or ARM 22 Cetratii to me lowers my sympathy to that sort of thing. If she's going to support our troops, have her go all-out on it damn it.


Not to mention Def17 winterguard, or def19 kayazys. I think our troops would be getting a huge disservice for them not to consider the +def route.

[LAWwaldo]

For me, the only thing the developers comments did was solidify my choice not to buy her. If they think such a terrible model is fine, then everyone can just show them how wrong they are buy leaving all of her packs on the store shelves.

[Blaque]

She actually was good for about three or four months when she was released is what really depresses me with her. Then the Mistake called Hex Hammer came out, giving Menites pretty much three spells to kill my upkeeps with. Then eGoreshade. Then the Combine. THen eEiryss. The last one pretty much to me still would render her practically a lot of the time.

So yeah, I'd speak with my wallet if I didn't have her already paitned and fun to play for a bit. Its what makes me even more depressed with her. She was really fun. She was relaly cool. I played her nearly non-stop for two months. And then well, the meta decided to change such that she was no longer able to play the game.

And stuff.

[Sevwall]

To be honest, without upkeep removal, the old revive was almost way too good. I've had games where I killed upwards of 20 wolves of oroboros, who never stopped charging me, because they got placed in stupid daisy chains.

I think she needs a buff, but I'm glad the old Revive (whatever the name) is gone.

[Zyrael]

To be honest, without upkeep removal, the old revive was almost way too good. I've had games where I killed upwards of 20 wolves of oroboros, who never stopped charging me, because they got placed in stupid daisy chains.

I think she needs a buff, but I'm glad the old Revive (whatever the name) is gone.

I've done that once too.

The problem is that in EVERY game after that I saw the witherdshadow combine, or practically any menoth caster, or most egregious of all eEiryss.

The meta of upkeep removal got WAY too easy in MK I... and I'm not sure they addressed the problem in MK II. You can balance the game around that, as long as you don't have caster's utterly dependent on an upkeep.

Sevwall. Regrowth as an ability MAY be too powerful, but I think it should be tested. One important thing to remember is that with new unit formation rules you can't daisy chain one model of the unit super far back to keep it safe and make you able to regrow the unit. They are all in a 8 or 9" bubble makes it far more likely to shatter the unit once and for all, especially smaller juicier units like Ravagers.

Just a thought.

[Voltimor]

If Harvest did make fury go over her fury stat it would make revive usefull and just word after her activation remove any fury that exceeds her fury stat.

[Dragonowar]

The feedback I have provided on her so far is to give her the torment spell from Morghoul. Its a cheap attack spell that would help her get eruption of life off. She needs more adjusting in some fashion.

[Amarel]

So, she got a change in the latest update: Regrowth replaces Revive.

Theory Machine: This is nice, but it does make her more reliant on 'Beasts again to get the best from it (Harvest Fury not being available in the Control Phase, ofc). She's also Queen of the Upkeeps again. I need to give her a couple of games in this new incarnation, but (knee-jerky) I still think she needs to be able to affect non-living better, needs something low-Fury to spam / Geomance, and could maybe use a skill that prevents her being hosed by anti-upkeep (the ability for one Upkeep not to be affected by anti-upkeep, for example). Anyway, that's all theory for now - let the battle commence :).

[DudeOfOrboros]

Argh! They must be teasing us with this change! Still seems unfinished and a limited playstyle, but I will try her out.