Fixed or Still Worthless: The Raek and Teraph Thread

[Gnoa]

One of the reoccurring things i heard from Legion players everywhere in MKi is that Raek and Teraph were worthless. I would like people's opinion on how they feel about them now?

[ricefrisbeetreats]

I don't think they changed...that seems to be a theme here.

[tonyzahn]

The Raek is now SPD 7, with pathfinder (finally), Stealth all the time instead of prowl, and Shadow Stalk now lets you move in whatever direction you want.

It still doesn't hit all that hard (a pow 11 & a pow 12), but it's pretty darn maneuverable.


As for the Teraph: it has Advanced Deploy now.

[Arkady]

Raek is okay. It is more survivable, move maneuverable (it kept Leap), and its animus is better. The damage output is unimpressive, but the model is definitely workable now.

The teraph still sucks from what I can see.

I am mainly shocked at the changes to the Seraph. Flight no longer ignores free strikes, Serpentine prevents slams, RAT is still crap and it's 8 points?! On the other hand, it has a P&S14 melee attack with critical poison. Still... shocking. Good thing I never bought more than 1.

[Gnoa]

I dunno, the Teraph's Counterblast seems like a great tool for the kit. I may proxy him for a few games to see how he works.

I do have a Raek and plan on fielding at least one in my first few lists.

[RuneGrey]

The big advantage is their point costs. You can fling 2 Raeks at the enemy for the cost of 1 seraph now, and 3 for 1 point more than a Carny. While their stats might not be super impressive, the Raek and Teraph are both dirt cheap (they're the cost of Cryx's arc nodes, which are the cheapest jacks in the game).

Heavy warbeasts will be at a premium, but seems that lights are a much better deal overall now.

[Shadowspite]

Seraphs are heavy beasts :(

the Raek lost its auto hitting tail from the jaw as well. seems workable. honestly, the Teraph still sucks, all that changed was it gained 1 point of rat, and AD. not worth it at all.

[Hellfury]

Initial impressions of the Teraph fail to delight me. I was really hoping one of the best looking warbeast models might look pretty on the table instead of on the shelf.

It lost critical poison, gained a point of RAT, lower threshold, kept dig in (which is less useful now than it used to be, and that wasnt very good even then), counterblast is slightly better, the cost remains on comparable par to nephilim soldier/protector...

Indeed, initial impressions tell me that I wont be using it in many games if it stays close to its current format. Its a darned shame really. Iwill still use mine, but only during playtest at this rate.

Raek on the other hand looks somewhat more useful than it was. I can see myself using one fairly often in its current incarnation.

Just initial impressions based on nothing more than reading the cards.

[Gargathor]

The big advantage is their point costs.
QFT. Seraph and Teraph used to be essentially the same cost (80 and 74 respectively). They are now 8 and 5. That's a HUGE reduction for the Teraph.

[Marius]

I think the Raek looks usable. I'm not 100% sold on it though. The Teraph really isn't very impressive, although it's quite cheap. All told, i'm going to try and playtest the hell out of these two and get in some feedback on them.

[Defenstrator]

I surprised that people are so ambivalent about the Raek. It has one downside, and that is that it doesn't put out alot of damage.

But on the upside it's cheap (4 points), manueverable (SPD 7, pathfinder, Bounding Leap), good defense (DEF 15, Stealth), and has reach. Plus it now has a very solid animus. He may not kill everything but he's cheap and a pain to deal with, and can put out some ok damage. Plus his animus on people like eThagrosh and Rhyas? Oh, yeah. There's going to be some fun.

The Teraph definately seems to have a role now. With AD and Dig In plus Counterblast he's your first line anti-skirmish guy. Now that he's more likely to actually use Dug In his mediocre defensive stats hopefully won't hurt as much. He's a bit more expensive though, and again isn't really dishing it out. I don't think he's bad, but I'll have to play with him to decide whether or not he's good, if you know what I mean.

As for Serpah talk, let's leave that on the Serpah thread where we can go into it in depth.

[Golgothas]

You're all doing it wrong. All you're doing is looking at the models themselves and not taking into consideration how they work with everything else.

On its own the Teraph may not seem like much, but don't tell me you can't think of a number of different things to do with him with a given Warlock. I'm no Legion player though, so I don't quite have the combos in mind.

[Blighted Messiah]

ok my question is- why take a raek over the totem hunter?

[chrsjxn]

You're all doing it wrong. All you're doing is looking at the models themselves and not taking into consideration how they work with everything else.

On its own the Teraph may not seem like much, but don't tell me you can't think of a number of different things to do with him with a given Warlock. I'm no Legion player though, so I don't quite have the combos in mind.

We actually don't have a lot of offensive buffs to offer our beasts. And the best of those aren't stackable.

[blitzmonkey]

The Teraph's counter blast + EThags spray = money.

[Jice_]

The more I look at the Teraph, the more I think he's better than his 5 point counterparts. I like the protector but he's very much a defencive model (better with Rhyas IMO.). I have and always will hate the Soilder model, but at the same time the Teraph seems better than it with certain warlocks.

eLylyth lost the Extra Melee attack portion of her feat so it's only an extra Ranged attack. To me that makes the Teraph far more valuable to her than any other light/lesser beast. Two blast attacks, Dig in, stealth from Shadow pack, AD to go with Striders means it fits very well into her list. With counter blast on Lylyth she could take a shot at a model that moved at her then Swift hunter back and away. And Deathsentance makes the MAT/RAT 5 not so bad when you really need to hit something.

EDIT: Holly Crap! Her feat's extra attack affects ONLY her battlegroup! Thats quite limiting isn't it. That means the only beasts even worth it with her are Seraphs, Teraphs, Carniveans, Angelus and Typhon.

[ShockwaveIIC]

For 4 Points the Raek i think is worth it. The animus is no longer shut down by being engaged, Pathfinder, Stealth.

Teraph, however, might not be worth it still. It will require playing.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

The big advantage is their point costs. You can fling 2 Raeks at the enemy for the cost of 1 seraph now, and 3 for 1 point more than a Carny. While their stats might not be super impressive, the Raek and Teraph are both dirt cheap (they're the cost of Cryx's arc nodes, which are the cheapest jacks in the game).

Heavy warbeasts will be at a premium, but seems that lights are a much better deal overall now.

The Raek is also the cost of the Charger...that for 3 focus has double boosted shots...twice. That's scary. A POW 12 is not too much to ask for.

[Zerosoul]

ok my question is- why take a raek over the totem hunter?

It's harder to kill, provides Fury and an animus to your warlock, and can have damage transferred to it? Is this a trick question?

[Neutralyze]

next time i play i am going to run two Raeks possibly with vayl.

also i like the thought of spamming neph soldier with vayl as well.

[Necra-Chi]

At first glance, I really like the teraph, and I think the raek is usable at that cheap price, but I like the Totem hunter more.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

still kind of underwhelmed by the raek. stealth and pathfinder just means he gets into melee and delivers his crap pow weapons and then gets its *** handed back to you.

then again i think i may be going really hard on the guy. they could have given him weaponmaster, mat 8, and a phd in physics and i'd still call him a disgrace.

[dicegod]

We actually don't have a lot of offensive buffs to offer our beasts. And the best of those aren't stackable.

Like Manifest Destiny, Parasite, Chiller, Breath Stealer, Death Sentence, Draconic Blessing, Tide of Blood, Massacre, Incite, Rapport?

[Malkav13]

The teraph is about the same now. His animus gives the model using it a bit more range (ending movement in the control area) so ranged casters like Lylth will get more use from it than others will. (Thagrosh with his breath likes it too). However, not much else has changed with the Teraph thus far.
The Raek got some really nice changes I fell. Pathfinder and stealth are welcome additions. His animus is a great buy for 1 fury. The fact that it still works,even while engaged, means that our casters have a great way of escaping (at the cost of 1 free strike for some). All in all I think the Raek made out nicely, while the Teraph still feels like it's missing a little.

[PrudentMantis]

then again i think i may be going really hard on the guy. they could have given him weaponmaster, mat 8, and a phd in physics and i'd still call him a disgrace.

Wouldn't he then be named Gordon Freeman? I mean, look at what the guy does with that crowbar!

On a more serious note, the Raek's rules look awesome to me, but I don't know all that much about Legion, just enough to get by as an opponent, so I could be looking at it wrong. Going to have to think about the Teraph some more, but like others have said, he looks like he'd go well with either Lylyth.

[Hjelmen0]

I think the Raek's biggest advantage is it's price. 4 points? That's spammable, and while their weapons might not be high power, they're very good at hunting solos; ones hiding behind other models, and ones that are flanking.

I really like the Raek now; it's a Hordes Stalker (without Grievous Wounds), which is cool :D

[Meatshield]

I look at the Teraph and it lost a melee attack and Crit poison on the tail, for AD and a point of Rat. Ok so that Rat and AD is nice, but why do I still get the feeling the poor Teraph still got nerfed.
That and it still has Mk1 Counterblast, a slight buff to the out-of-turn attack would probably be all it needs to fix it, as it is I see it not being used for the exact same reasons as Mk1, nothing has been done to improve the Animus.

[Hellfury]

I look at the Teraph and it lost a melee attack and Crit poison on the tail, for AD and a point of Rat. Ok so that Rat and AD is nice, but why do I still get the feeling the poor Teraph still got nerfed.

Likely because of its cost. I feel I would be better served paying the 5 points for a nephilim soldier or protector than I would in paying that much for a teraph in its current form. 4 points for that beast is much easier to swallow and I would be much more inclined to use it. Even then I still think I would prefer to use the raek more often at that cost, but I think 4 points for what it does could be considered fair.

This is of course an opinion that comes from not using it yet in MKII though however, so that might change when I do.

[Gnoa]

still kind of underwhelmed by the raek. stealth and pathfinder just means he gets into melee and delivers his crap pow weapons and then gets its *** handed back to you.

then again i think i may be going really hard on the guy. they could have given him weaponmaster, mat 8, and a phd in physics and i'd still call him a disgrace.

Well i think the problem here is people expect him to hold his own, on his own. The Raek is a light warbeast, the kind of targets he can take out with his weapons are the only kind of targets he should be going after alone.

The way i see it: He has total free movement of the battlefield, can't be easily target by range, makes your opponent reconsider how close they want to get key personnel to your Warlock. He is a predator...and even a wolf runs in a pack!

I could see running 2 of these guys, though i will start with just one for now.

[Garth]

Now Imagine something very simple:

2 Raeks with Vayl or E-Thagrosh.

They are slipstreamed 2", walk 7", jump 5" and have reach.
This are 16". Then they mave Mat 8 Pow 14 or roll 3 dices and discard the lowest.

This is enough to hit Defense 15 and pow can kill warcasters.
One is not enough to do so, but 2 should be able to finish the job.


Compared to a Seraph: Slipstream, move, 10" range: 18" Threatrange. Has Rat 7, Pow 14 (or also extra dices) and d6 attacks.
He can hit def 14 without boosting, but doesn't need to buy extra attacks and doesn't use 1 fury to jump.



Both models should be able to kill a warcaster. The Seraph has 2" more Threatrange, but needs LoS after moving 8". The Raek needs a place near the caster.

But just imagine this: 16" Threatrange for the Raek! And 2 of them can kill most casters. And they are only 8 points. This sounds good to me...

[Gnoa]

Plus now we can recreate the opening scene in Hordes: Evolution with Thagrosh having two Raeks guarding him as pets :)

[Blighted Messiah]

i say pay 3 pts for a totem hunter who is almost exactly a raek.

[Gnoa]

i say pay 3 pts for a totem hunter who is almost exactly a raek.

Skills wise, yes. But he is not a warbeast. You can't transfer damage or boost his attack\damage rolls. That is really kind of a huge difference.

Also i think it should be noted: Totem Hunter: 8 damage Raek: 19 damage

[Blighted Messiah]

yeah but (situational) mat 10 vs mat 6 is just huge
and a (situational) pow 16 with reach /pow 13 vs pow 12( reach) /pow 11 is also big

basically, totem hunter is boosting his attacks automatically against his marked prey.
yeah, raek has more hit points- but take out a single spiral and he is mostly useless anyway.

and TH has advance deploy


hmmm maybe one of each for the win?

[Gnoa]

Yeah, i plan to try them both out. This wouldn't be the first time i thought something looked really good on paper but didn't work out once the game began. :)

My store is doing an all night pre-Thanksgiving testing of the Hordes rules since none of us will be able to play this weekend. I should get in plenty of 35 and 50 point games in. I will try to play the same lists, just switching out the Raek for TH and see how things go. I will post my results...but i think it is going to take quite a few games to get a really good idea if what works.

[General Nemo]

ok my question is- why take a raek over the totem hunter?
Because it can boost and generate fury for a warlock? Not to mention you can heal it and grant your warlock a new spell.

Oh and you can transfer to it.

[Blighted Messiah]

sorry, not buying the boost part- as i already said- the totem hunter is already boosted- sure the animus is nice- but is it worth a point? maybe.
are you spending 4 points to have something to transfer to? um, spend 2 and take a harrier which has a great animus too.

remember- a beast can frenzy- and if it casts it animus or boosts damage- it becomes more likely.
even with your caster leeching it is a damger

[alchahest]

just remember that you'll never be able to include the totem hunter in any spell, feat, or effect that is for "friendly legion models" "friendly models in your battlegroup" "legion warbeasts" or anything like that.

[Zerosoul]

Saying this without table time, I think the Raek actually should get Prey. I don't think it would be absurd at its current points cost and would go a long way to giving it that stalking hunter feeling, as well as giving it more flexibility. Right now, though, it's an in-faction solo hunter that benefits from faction and battlegroup buffs, is more survivable than the totem hunter, and gives you another way to get Fury and another target to transfer to, and another animus. I think it's a little on the weak side of 4 points, but it's definitely fieldable.

[blitzmonkey]

Saying this without table time, I think the Raek actually should get Prey. I don't think it would be absurd at its current points cost and would go a long way to giving it that stalking hunter feeling, as well as giving it more flexibility. Right now, though, it's an in-faction solo hunter that benefits from faction and battlegroup buffs, is more survivable than the totem hunter, and gives you another way to get Fury and another target to transfer to, and another animus. I think it's a little on the weak side of 4 points, but it's definitely fieldable.

That is an AMAZING idea. Giving it prey would make it worth 4 points. As it is, it is worth it on the low end. I love the new Raek personally. It is not meant to be a melee monster. It is meant to hunt solos and whatnot.

As for the Teraph, I think he needs +1 RAT. He can do ok in melee, but I see him more of being a speed bump. The other problem I see with him is with the new unit rules, he isn't going to be hitting a ton of units. So effectively, you are hitting one or two guys at most. What ALSO would be nice is an effect from the AoE, like corrision or something of the sort.

[WarcasterKramer]

I think the Raek is a really good fit into armies now for 4 points. The stealth and SPD 7 really make it useful - yes, it doesn't dish out lots of damage, but use it on solos and troops and it is awesome. I own three and can't wait to try them all against a shooty army. Think of it against Cygnar those pesky gun mages, longgunners and trenchers won't do anything against a couple of Raeks.

[Garth]

Raek with prey would be great. Just target the other caster, use incite and attack him with Mat 10 and Pow 16 over 16" (without leash from vayl). Who else thinks that is never going to happen ?

Garth

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

OK! i just warmed up alot to the raek with shadow stalk being a cost of 1 and thinking it through a bit more.

[Neutralyze]

Saying this without table time, I think the Raek actually should get Prey. I don't think it would be absurd at its current points cost and would go a long way to giving it that stalking hunter feeling, as well as giving it more flexibility. Right now, though, it's an in-faction solo hunter that benefits from faction and battlegroup buffs, is more survivable than the totem hunter, and gives you another way to get Fury and another target to transfer to, and another animus. I think it's a little on the weak side of 4 points, but it's definitely fieldable.

i will also chime in and say that i think it deserves prey but in compensation for prey it should become pt cost 5. Sprint would be cool too :)

[Blighted Messiah]

will a raek kill 4 points worth of stuff? probably not.

[alchahest]

all that movement is awesome, but remember, you won't be able to force it to do anything if it gets /too/ far ahead. bounding leap requires forcing.

[alchahest]

will a raek kill 4 points worth of stuff? probably not.

How many points of your own guys will a Raek save by taking out enemy solos?

[Neutralyze]

also i like shadow stalk on rhyas even though i dont care for our new rhyas too much.

[Defenstrator]

I think the Raek as is kind of demands a Shepherd to back him up. With so many Fury 5 casters the Raek will almost certainly get out of their CTRL area, so the Shepherd is a must for hm.

[yankeefan]

you know i actually like both of them on paper. The Raek can now keep up with the likes of Lylith and the terph isnt that bad for 5 points. I can think of a lot of uses for counterbalst.

[Neutralyze]

I think the Raek as is kind of demands a Shepherd to back him up. With so many Fury 5 casters the Raek will almost certainly get out of their CTRL area, so the Shepherd is a must for hm.

the real question is how many of those 5 fury warlock would you use the Raek with?

i can see Rhyas being the best one and just because it has to stay within 10" doesnt mean its bad.

[Necra-Chi]

I tried the teraph with E-Lylyth last night. I really liked it.

It was stealthed all the time anyway.
I really liked being able to deploy after normal deployment and up in support of striders.
Slightly larger counterblast threat range was nice deterrent.
Complimenting strider anti-cover with teraph anti-stealth/smoke was nice.
Killed gorman with melee and A+H with shooting on feat turn, along with some idrians and a slam on a reckoner.
I'd say it was solid. It actually felt like a 6 pointer almost.

[Blighted Messiah]

How many points of your own guys will a Raek save by taking out enemy solos?


just as many as the totem hunter i would say.

[Angelust]

I think the Raek's biggest advantage, just from paper-theory-machine, is its animus. Being a spammable spell that can allow your caster to be up front and dealing out damage seems like an incredibly good ability for its 1 pt cost.

In smaller games, I can imagine eThag killing entire pockets by himself and just shadow-stalking away from anything that could counter-charge him. At the very least, it could help escape a counter-assassination by a 0.5" melee range caster if you failed to off him on the charge.

There are just too many possible uses in my mind with the way its worded now..

[Hjelmen0]

Mootaz just confirmed that you can in fact cast Shadow Stalk on multiple models and get to move for each affected model.

[VyperUoR]

the real question is how many of those 5 fury warlock would you use the Raek with?

i can see Rhyas being the best one and just because it has to stay within 10" doesnt mean its bad.


Not to mention that the Shepherd won't let you leach the fury back off the Raek afterwards anyway. Best to keep within 10" really.

EDIT: Completely forgot that the Shepherd can remove fury points from the Raek itself, but you do still need to be careful.




So far, what I can tell is that the Raek seems pretty good for 4pts. I plan on testing a couple for a while to see how things go.

Teraphs for 5pts still don't quite seem worthwhile, 4pts seems comfortable or at least give us back crit poison on the tail, its meant to be a land based counterpart to the Seraph, it may as well keep some tie-ins with it.

[Styvis]

With a mighty one game with the Raek under my belt, i really liked it for it's 4 points. It's fast, annoying and the animus is nice.
I agree with VyperUoR, where's the critpoison on the Teraphs tail? So far I have not been superimpressed by the Teraph, it needs something to make it worth it's 5pts.

[Shadowspite]

the Raek, I have decided, for its 4 points is absolutely amazing.

they can always get where they want to, warlocks/warcaster have to worry about their melee attacks, and they are stealthed and pathfinder, also our ONLY beast that can ignore free strikes by itself (by leaping)

also, quirky rules interaction seems that its animus is placed on the target model, not itself. so you can shadow stalk something, then cast tenacity/Spiny growth on the Raek to help it survive a freestrike if it needs to during its shadowstalk.

or with someone like eThagrosh, cast Shadow stalk on a nasty unit you are within 10" then cast counterblast. they move into 10" and you can either spray them, or whack them with rapture as well as move your speed!

the 2 animi together are very nice on your warlock.

[ShockwaveIIC]

If you cast Shadow stalk on their models that would require a roll to hit with a 3 fury ability right?

[Necra-Chi]

No, it just happens, its not offensive. It does target though so you need LOS.

[Gnoa]

If you cast Shadow stalk on their models that would require a roll to hit with a 3 fury ability right?

Nope, Shadow Stalk is not a offensive spell. This was a shocker to us when we found out yesterday.

[Perdidas]

the real question is how many of those 5 fury warlock would you use the Raek with?

i can see Rhyas being the best one and just because it has to stay within 10" doesnt mean its bad.

Rhyas is absolutely amazing with one. She's immune to free strikes and can move through models due to acrobatics; so can cast Dash, spam Shadow Stalk, and reposition herself up to 24 inches from where she started (unless the enemy doesn't move three models, so it's kind of a win-win assuming you target the models which would be threatening her anyway).

[wizuriel]

just curious if people have been using bounding leap? Running would give you more distance and charging will give help you more in combat. Not sure what I am missing, just don't see a use for the leap.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Don't overlook that as a 'Place' effect, Leap will not generate free-strikes. This means that your Raek can effectively bypass hard targets to directly engage the soft, squishy undershell behind them. :)

-s&s

[wizuriel]

Ah, and I guess can walk into combat with the leap.

[Lazlo]

Today I used a Raek with Saeryn and loved how it performed. Had her feat, cast Blight Bringer on it, then had it advance and leap into melee with a unit of Nyss Hunters (love the reach on the tail). They had the option of free strikes or die to the blight. He pretty much took them out of the game (though the awesomeness of the Raptors made Kaelyssa die the next turn anyway).

His charge is 10" + 2" reach.
His advance and leap is 12" + 2" reach.

It's that 2 inches that will usually determing for me which to do, barring any actual NEED to leap, like getting to the soft chewy center of an army. In today's example I was approximately 11" away from where I wanted him to be.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Another note: Making a full advance does not necessarily involve moving anywhere. A full advance is moving /up to/ your SPD stat in inches. This can include a movement of 0", if you'd like.

Really, that amounts to allowing you to leap your Raek out of enemy engagement range, if you'd like -- Possibly to eliminate the 'Target in Melee' penalty that your Raptors will take as they rain down poison death from the skies. :)

-s&s

(edit: For Clarity)

[oninofro]

still kind of underwhelmed by the raek. stealth and pathfinder just means he gets into melee and delivers his crap pow weapons and then gets its *** handed back to you.

then again i think i may be going really hard on the guy. they could have given him weaponmaster, mat 8, and a phd in physics and i'd still call him a disgrace.

I don't know... Mat 8 Weaponmaster AND a Ph.D would make him billy bad tush at 4 points.
I'm going to have to play a couple of them... luckily I own two because I love the model and want to give it a secondary set of fangs.

[Ravnak]

I really like the new raek.

He's got a good ability, a nice animus, and hes cheap enough to be looked at.


The new teraph is still bollocks in my oppinion. He starts further forwards, digs in.... and then does nothing interesting for three turns. He doesnt hit hard, he doesnt have much in the way of tricks. I'm just unimpressed.

[Mod_Plarzoid]

And the model looks damn cool to boot!

http://privateerpress.com/files/imagecache/1up/products/legion-of-everblight/warbeasts/raek.png

[Necra-Chi]

It got reach? !

[Awefaw]

Yes, yes it did.

[Neutralyze]

It got reach? !

you didnt see that?

at 4 pts it is rather good.

[Lazlo]

I used the Teraph in a eLylyth game, and he performed fairly well. His dig in made him a pretty unappealing target for ranged and magic attacks, which was nice. On the feat turn he got two RNG 14 POW 13 AOE 3 attacks, which was also nice. But he wasn't anything special, I don't think. I'm not sure if he needs any changes, and I don't know what I would suggest if he did, but he's kind of uninspiring. I'll have to play him some more and see if I can work out my feelings.

I like the new Raek, as I've said before, but I sure wish he had an extended control range. It was pretty easy to get him out of Saeryn's control range, and I'm pretty sure it's even worse with Lylyth, who by the fluff is the Raek-chick. Shepherds can help with that, but they can't keep up with the Raek (and still remove fury). This is one instance where I prefer the old Shepherd rules.

[Devilsquid]

Yeah, the Raek is definitely on the list of 'good' warbeasts for me now. The Teraph is still a good beast, but feels a lot more situational to me. It does have an AOE attack, but a 3" aoe is not the nasty it once was. Still, it fits into the more 'defensive' models that the Legion has (like Scather Crew), so having it position to the side to threaten a flank isn't bad.

I was thinking of using as the Dark Sentinel beast for Vayl, but Dig In doesn't let him block LOS, so that's near useless.

Also, Legion seems to still have access to a lot of "during your opponents turn" abilities, something that is not as prevailant as it used to be. The Teraph ties into that with Counterblast.

[Necra-Chi]

How do you guys feel about the Teraph getting thresher on its tail and going up to 6 points?

Reasons:
1. Reach and thresher is the new black
2. It would define the creature's role as a flank protecting anti-infantry beast, giving it greater focus
3. It would distinguish the beast as our most expensive but premier light
4. The tail looks like it can thresher.

I'm not suggesting this out of a need for it to be "better", I think its pretty damned good already.

[alchahest]

@Necra-Chi: honestly I'd love that - the Teraph is such a fun sculpt, I really wish it lived up to it's great looks. stepping up to be the premier light would make me very happy.

[SteakAndSpirits]

I have mixed feelings about the Teraph, in his current incarnation.

I don't know if Thresher would alleviate those concerns - And as much as Advanced Deployment would have assisted his playability in Mark I, along with starting the game dug-in, I look at his RNG 10 attack and...

...immediately begin thinking about how much I think the Scather has improved.

So while I've been pleased with his make-over and enjoyed chewing on the idea that he may have some potential, it's mostly been belief that by the time Mark II hits, he'll be finalized into something that appeals to me.

Does thresher do that? Not sure.

Sell us on it.

-s&s

[Necra-Chi]

Flank protection. Everyone else is off attacking the opposit flank or holding the centre but you've got annoying stealthy flanking enemy infantry and solos tearing down your opposite flank. the teraph is already waiting for them because It ADed in response, moved, dug in and put its animus. Solos are in trouble because its got a boostable, eyeless sight AOE, and probably aiming bonus waiting for them, probably the worst case scenario for your typical flanking solo. Infantry can't hang around because it can lob an AOE and buy animus again. It's too hard to be shot out of its position by typical infantry and solos because its got dug in.

THEN if you run to engage it, if it has thresher, thats a dangerous proposition.

Now without thresher its still pretty good at holding up an infantry flanking maneuvre, but with thresher it becomes a real threat, even acrobatic daughters and such still have to fear it boosting three attacks to cut down their fighting efficiency to half.

Good enough?

[blitzmonkey]

I personally am liking that idea a bit. Would make it a solid 5.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Good enough?

It's definitely a good start - I still need to think about it. Those Legionnaires have been occupying most of my cranium's realestate on the matter of flank defense, while that Scather has been consistently lobbing disgustingly accurate AoEs into the hordes of opposing n00bs in my mind's eye.

And my 5 point Light spot is a little competitive. Especially with Raek+Shepherds running around.

Does thresher mandate a point increase? Can't we just whine really loud, and vocally, and make wild, unfounded accusations and just get it for free?

-s&s

[Soulblighter]

Teraph with thresher and a better animus for 6 points would be great.

[warmaster21]

i used a raek with rhyas yesterday against Ekrugar and started it on my flank with a shephered... the only real problem with it is i couldnt use its speed becuase the shepherd couldnt keep up to suck the fury back off of it... not to mention then i couldnt figure out how his animus was suppose to work since it had target enemy and a range of 10 (now i know)

sad to say an anoying druid free struck my beast (who had to move then leap to get at krugar, started the turn in melee with a druid who walked up to it and used its aoe debuff) and it took out both my mind and spirit ruining my plans :( those damn fire ice and electricity immune annoying druids making my range attacks usless :(

anyways i wouldnt mind the extended control area being put on a raek, it would actually allow it to be used by anyone short of vayle who can at least get it to somehow stay in her 16 inch control area..... sigh if only i had bought a second raek i wouldnt have to spend money on one now ;)

not sure about the tereph yet... since i dont own one ill have to proxy it one of these days...

[Necra-Chi]

Teraph with thresher and a better animus for 6 points would be great.

Yes I think its would have to come with Counterblast triggering at range = to the range of your ranged attack, not command.

You come in range, you get blasted.

[Ravnak]

Another note: Making a full advance does not necessarily involve moving anywhere. A full advance is moving /up to/ your SPD stat in inches. This can include a movement of 0", if you'd like.

I disagree. An advance is moving. I'm fairly sure that if you moved zero, you didn't move. (someone tell me if I'm wrong, but I dont think I am...)



As for teraphs. I dunno. I think they should gain something (thresher would be nice, but I think its a pipedream), or drop a point.

Making them 6 points makes them even less desirable in my eyes. Especially since in WM you can get heavies for 6 points. (Also, I'm hoping that our heavy beasts will all be trimmed by a point).

Incidently, I hope teraphs dont re-gain critical poison. I'm fed up of the words "living model" cropping up everywhere and gimping everything vs. cryx.

[Sabin]

Shadow-stalk is beyond useful, it has some over-powering application in spamming

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

I argee with the thresher idea, that would be the frosting it was missing from its cake.

[Ravnak]

Shadow-stalk is beyond useful, it has some over-powering application in spamming

I bet you my unused teraph model that the ability to spam it will vanish after playtesting.

[VyperUoR]

I've got a pair of Teraphs that I would love to make use of, some suggestions to make it a bit better currently might include:

1) The animus gives boosted attack and damage rolls.

2) The Teraph gains, or the animus gives, gunfighter and immunity Fire. :D

3) Thresher would be damn nice

4) Can we have our Jaw and Crit poison back please?

5) Animus gains 10" Areas of effect.

These are just some suggestions and I'm sure you guys can come up with more comfortably.

[Primus]

I disagree. An advance is moving. I'm fairly sure that if you moved zero, you didn't move. (someone tell me if I'm wrong, but I dont think I am...)

You are wrong. :)

MkII makes a specific distinction between a model's advance (anywhere from 0" up to the full SPD in inches) and a full advance (must move the model's full SPD in inches). Advancing 0" is legal in all situations where you're not forced to make a full advance, allowing you to have some defense against those annoying get-you-if-you-move gotchas, like Defensive Strike or the Old Witch's feat.

[Sabin]

I bet you my unused teraph model that the ability to spam it will vanish after playtesting.

I'm hoping it does, and expecting it to, but there are no guarentees.

[chrsjxn]

You are wrong. :)

MkII makes a specific distinction between a model's advance (anywhere from 0" up to the full SPD in inches) and a full advance (must move the model's full SPD in inches). Advancing 0" is legal in all situations where you're not forced to make a full advance, allowing you to have some defense against those annoying get-you-if-you-move gotchas, like Defensive Strike or the Old Witch's feat.

That's not quite correct.

Check p. 18.

An "advance" is basically any voluntary movement.

A "full advance" is just what happens when you decide to use the movement portion of your activation to do an "advance" up to your speed. This includes changing facing without otherwise moving.

Forfeiting your movement (say, for an aiming bonus), however, allows you to end your movement without advancing, so you can avoid damage from the Old Witch's Field of Talons. (p. 34)

[Arkady]

The Raek has been a nice toy so far. Stealth, pathfinder and Shadow Stalk help keep it safe, and the 14" threat with the tail that can avoid intervening models is also very nice. The damage output is low, but it's nice for getting at those backline support models, and the flying headbutt is alive and well.

The teraph still seems to be missing something. The animus is okay, but both its ranged and melee capability is a bit lame for a 5 point model.

[wizuriel]

I would actually prefer to see the Nephilim soldier with thresher and the Teraph gain smite as a special attack on the tail and give it back its bite. Plant is somewhere and when people try to advance it moves up bites them and then knocks them away/down.


hmmm a Teraph I think would be nice with lylyth

[Jaster]

Two of my favorate warbeasts for their looks and style, in MK1, I used the Raek alot, and it was honestly a dead-weight and more or less my armies cheerleader. I could get it in to mess with a Ranged Unit if I was running it with Vayl or had a Shepherd, but that was about it. Teraph took potshots and that was all, just a AoE threat that I hoped didn't drift back at me to scrap my froward lines.

In MK2, the Raek is not only playable, but solid for it's low 4 point cost, of the changes;

Pathfinder was added and Leap remained, giving it great ability to maneuver to disrupt the enemy. Reach was added to it's better weapon, giving it a greater anti-infantry roll (can hit more each turn), at the trade of losing Seize on the Jaw (which caused tails to Auto-hit after its weaker bite landed), which is more then fair, since Seize was only useful against hard targets, which it could (and still only can) chip the paint off of. It gained full Stealth, rather then Prowl, an no longer needs to stick to walls, forests, clouds (or Thagrosh) for it's stealth, which aids it greatly as an Anti-Ranged Infantry, since it can simply leap over the last 5 inches and is more or less, un-touchable by ranged without anti-stealth. It's speed increased, again, adding to a solid maneuverability, and lastly, it's Animus was improved, costing 1 Less (1 instead of 2, a BIG difference on a 3 fury that also must spend 1 to leap), and it may move in any direction, rather then only towards it. It did lose the Free Strike immunity Shadow Stalk once gave, but that was sort of an illusion, since it couldn't use the shadow stalk movement if it was engaged (so it only helped in moving past other models, not for fleeing).
With Shadow Stalk as is, you can circle around a unit you don't want to fight, move for the kill, prevent them from escaping, or simply abuse it to reposition the Raek (or you Warlock) as needed.
It also gained 1 MAT, rare for any Legion to have 6+ MAT / RAT, and only lost 1 Threshold, rather then the 2 that was common, making it behave better compaired to the rest. It is still flimsy, and needs it's fair 15 Defense to keep moving, and any aggressive Light or Heavy will cut it down in 2-3 swings on good dice, it's P+S is still low on it's weapons (11 and 12), making it in effective on armored targets, but it plays it's niche as an Anti-Support Infantry role like a charm, as it's bounding leap can still ignore Free Strikes (being a place effect).

As for the Teraph, it's better then it was, but that's not saying much. It gained Advanced Deploy, one of the few beasts to have, and Dig In's alteration helps it I think, but, it's RAT is painfully low still, with a short RNG of 10, means it needs to either get pushed ahead some how (keep in mind Slipstream pulls it out of Dig In), and lock down again, or stay standing out in the open to keep aiming and spitting and hope nothing comes to knock it out of the game. I can see it being fairly useful for Vayl, who can drag it across the battle field with good speed (at the cost of Dig In), as well as the fact it can fill it's ranged role, and still be a fair choice for her Dark Sentinal ability. With Epic Lylyth, it could have some hope on her feat turn (a pair of RNG 14 POW 15 AoEs with just enough fury to boost both attack rolls and one to spare), but that sounds like a 4 point beast, rather then a 5 to me. It's Animus is woeful on itself, perhaps just my dice hating me, but it rarely hits with it (out of activation, no aiming), with a small scope (less then the range of the weapon). It is nice for Thagrosh (Epic and Primal) and Lylyth (again, both), who can land a good shot to plink the aggressor, while Thagrosh can deivsate and advancing infantry line with it (since it dosn't allow movement, just the attacks, he'll either swing with Rapture and blast one into a PoW 12 Cloud to hit the rest, or he'll use a Spray, hopefully hitting 2-3). However, that's fairly costly and niche for a 2 Fury animus in light of Moderate to low fury Warlocks viying with it (other then Epic Thagrosh's bulky 7).

In short, Raek is gret, Teraph is ok, no major overhaul is needed, but it's also not your best choice these days.

[Soulblighter]

I feel the Teraph does in fact need a major overhaul. Its a defensive/reactionary warbeast in a faction thats neither defensive nor reactionary. The Teraph doesnt get used because no legion player in their right mind wants a warbeast thats locked in place for half the game and responds to the opponent. The Teraph needs a complete offensive overhaul. Get rid of counterblast, get rid of dig-in, because these arnt useful to us. Give it a sick offensive animus like explosivo (target models first ranged attack gains AOE3), give it pathfinder, give it thresher. These are abilities we want on our warbeasts.

[Arkady]

Dig In's alteration helps it I think
Unlikely, since Dig In is strictly worse in MkII. Instead of cover and +4 ARM, it's cover and immunity to blast damage.

[Necra-Chi]

"Strictly" worse? Direct shots might miss a DEF 17 warbeast entirely, and AOEs that miss will do nothing (except the vanquisher's of course). That's often better than +4 ARM.

[Arkady]

It always got +4 DEF, so that part is a wash. I rather have him at ARM19 than immune to the occasional fire-causing blast effect.

[Soulblighter]

Dig-in is a terrible ability for a Legion warbeast anyway. Why do we want a beast that has to forfeit its movement all the time? Thats uncharacteristic of how Legion plays. What we need from the Teraph is a light warbeast with good on-the-move firepower, backed up by a decent anti-infantry thresher attack, and a cost-effective offensive oriented animus. We dont need a Trencher Cannon Warbest.